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The mine problem (not the dil mine)

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited July 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Maybe not really a 'problem' per se, but more that I couldn't come up with a better title.

This isn't really a 'nerf this' or 'buff that' thread, more a discussion on how there have been some mines which've been an issue, including a more recent one.

Quite awhile back, mines got a major change in how they work, being affected differently by dispersal patterns and such, along with adjustments to their damage and effects. Like chroniton mines debuff, or the bleedthrough of transphasic mines.

So what has happened since then is that there have been 3 mines that've been an issues in PvP. I'll be going over each one of them.



Tricobalt mines:

Primary issues: AoE disable, huge damage capability (with any class), disable lengthened by spec (though also resisted by spec), used to also break STFs and some other PvE content by destroying things in an order that they shouldn't have been able to do so with. Affected by the 'one-crit, all-crit' bug, which when the DPB would crit, all four mines would automatically be crits as well. Easily gotten by anyone, because they were just a normal item.

We all remember tric mines of course. Huge damage no matter who was using them, mines all over the place hitting for gigantic level numbers. I saw tac-buffed mines critting for 250,000 damage per mine sometimes. Even a non-tac with a lucky enough crit and/or debuffed target could break the 6-digit barrier; despite if not that high a crit, it was easy to do enough damage to easily bust through just about anyone.



Tachyon mines:

Primary issues: AoE shield drain and resist debuff, nearly impossible to escape the AoE effect. Also was boosted by Flow Capacitors, while not being resisted at all by Power Insulators. Wasn't as wide-spread, mostly due to the 200 lobi cost being rather painful to actually get for most people.

These were the other 'big' one that we had for awhile. They could easily strip down nearly any player's shields no matter how much they had because of the massive drain they could incur on someone. Even if they did keep any shields (or regained them back from heals) they would still be majorly weakened due to the shield resist debuff.



Nukara mines:

Primary issues: Guaranteed hold (which doesn't need to be specced into) if they hit, a tremendous amount of bleedthrough, does physical damage which isn't as easily resisted as normal kinetic damage. Even if a target breaks free or doesn't die to them, the target is still left almost totally defenseless for the duration of the mine. They're only really limited by that Nukara rep is annoying to level up (at least in my opinion it is).

And here's the one we're dealing with right now. Nukara mines are different from the other two in that they are not AoE.



Anyways, now that we have that, all three mines have a couple things in common:

1. Lack of opportunity cost. For the most part, all they really need is just an aft weapon slot, which is usually used for mines, beam arrays, turrets, or the occasional torpedo. So with just a single back slot, any ship can have a powerful addition to it's other abilities.

2. Dispersal patterns. Some have argued that the mines without a dispersal pattern (mostly DPB) are not overpowered, and only become so when used with a dispersal pattern to make a whole lot more of them.

3. The same counters work for all of them as they would every other mine in the game.



Now, the point from all this...

These mines, and possibly others in the future, have, and will be an issue because of everything I mentioned above. In all three cases people have said that others simply need to use counters on the mines, or that they are never hit, or never die to them, etc.

Thing is, even if you do make sure to counter mines, there's no such thing as a perfect defense against them. Plus, even if you do counter these properly, you are giving up a FAR greater opportunity cost to counter them no matter what that counter is.

The user of the mine has nothing to lose if you destroy their mines, they can always make as many as they want without worry. if they want to use a Dispersal pattern to make more each time, obviously that is a greater cost, but not much more than the other 'weapon enhancement' buff abilities you can slot, like Torpedo spread or Beam Overload. Dispersal patterns are unique in that they start at the Lt. Level, meaning that if you want rank three, you have to be willing to give up the Cmdr slot on a ship. Which is higher than other abilities, but even a DPB 2 can be nearly as good regardless.

Besides all that, there are subtler counters to the normal counters, including in indirect ways. For example, laying down a junkier mine, knowing that someone will counter it, thus they won't have a counter for your real mine. Or hiding mines in something like the effect of a Scramble Sensors or EWP (when it isn't glitching out). SS is particularly effective because not only can you hide the mines (except the sound of course), the confuse effect makes it more difficult to counter them well.

Don't misunderstand me of course, I'm not trying to say people will always just fly into any mines left and right. Hardly so. More that, these mines give up nearly nothing, and gain a lot in return, while anyone trying to fight them has to give up something and gain nearly nothing except not dying as often to them.



In summary, my main point from all this is that the mines, whether you consider them 'OP' or not, are a weapon that the user of them gives up very little for a powerful effect. Anytime you actually do try and counter them, you would have to give up more in general to counter them, then the person using them really cares about, because it only helps them out in yet more ways because of it.

I understand that most of what I've said about these three mines can apply for the other normal mines (photon, quantum, transphasic, chroniton, and plasma), but the other normal mines are also not that OTT, and are generally part of a larger build instead of just a powerful nearly no-cost weapon.

I rarely see photon and quantum mines (not counting from pets), but transphasic boats are seen occasionally (I fly one), plasma mine spam is good for clearing out pets or putting lots of plasma fires on targets which stack a lot, while chroniton mines are great for debuffing.

So...time for the discussion.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Post edited by mimey2 on

Comments

  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mines are fine. Full stop.

    The nukura mine... yes I think everyone agrees it needs to be tweeked.

    Trics got nerfed hard and you don't see them that often anymore because they just aren't that great. The only real advantage to them is they will knock off extends and aoe fields ect.

    The tach mines, haven't seen anyone dropping these in ages either. They got nerfed as well did they not ?

    Photons and Quantums... you don't see them for a reason. They just have no useful proc.

    Doesn't make them broken they just aren't so useful in pvp.

    Photons do spit faster then anything else... and quantums do hit harder... but no one is relying on Mines for DPS or Spike... so the obvious choices become plasma chron or phasic... no big deal there.

    I quite like the mines at the moment.... a good weapon choice with out being the nesty premade sillyness nesting weapon they used to be... or the masked idiot one shot toy they could be right after the tric changes.
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  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I feel asleep after the first two paragraphs. Is this Superlong Text Online, STO?

    - Never been hit by a Tric mine, then again I joined STO only after they supposedly nerf these mines

    - Have the Ferengi mines on Fed toon but never used it in combat after some tests, pretty useless for my builds

    - What's new? Another veiled attack at Nukara mines. :rolleyes: Someone has yet to show these mines either one-shot people or they hit targets most of the time, unlike you know, DHC.

    I am all for nerfing the Nukara mines, in exchange I want a comparable accuracy rating for DHC and Beams, that is they all suffer a 80% accuracy penalty so that they will be approximately equivalent to the hit % of mines. Fair is fair, right? :cool:
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Mines are fine. Full stop.

    The nukura mine... yes I think everyone agrees it needs to be tweeked.

    Trics got nerfed hard and you don't see them that often anymore because they just aren't that great. The only real advantage to them is they will knock off extends and aoe fields ect.

    The tach mines, haven't seen anyone dropping these in ages either. They got nerfed as well did they not ?

    Photons and Quantums... you don't see them for a reason. They just have no useful proc.

    Doesn't make them broken they just aren't so useful in pvp.

    Photons do spit faster then anything else... and quantums do hit harder... but no one is relying on Mines for DPS or Spike... so the obvious choices become plasma chron or phasic... no big deal there.

    I quite like the mines at the moment.... a good weapon choice with out being the nesty premade sillyness nesting weapon they used to be... or the masked idiot one shot toy they could be right after the tric changes.

    Hold on...I wasn't saying all mines were a problem (the thread title was only that because I couldn't think of something better). And I highly agree with most of what you said. Most mines are fine.

    What I was trying to get at was that we've gone through this same scenario twice already. Once with Trics, once with Tachyons, and now with the Nukara mines. Powerful mines which give up little, and have very strong effects often times. Sure the others are fine, but that's just it, the others ARE fine, I'm not denying that at all, and we just have had issue with these.

    People used them, others complained about how strong they were, and people defended them (with many of the very things I talked about in the OP).

    On Tachyon mines: they were both fixed and nerfed. Nerfed in that the shield resist debuff was toned down somewhat, but fixed in that PI actually resists them. Aside from that, I believe they were untouched.
    iskandus wrote: »
    I feel asleep after the first two paragraphs. Is this Superlong Text Online, STO?

    - Never been hit by a Tric mine, then again I joined STO only after they supposedly nerf these mines

    - Have the Ferengi mines on Fed toon but never used it in combat after some tests, pretty useless for my builds

    - What's new? Another veiled attack at Nukara mines. :rolleyes: Someone has yet to show these mines either one-shot people or they hit targets most of the time, unlike you know, DHC.

    I am all for nerfing the Nukara mines, in exchange I want a comparable accuracy rating for DHC and Beams, that is they all suffer a 80% accuracy penalty so that they will be approximately equivalent to the hit % of mines. Fair is fair, right? :cool:

    You want to believe this is a veiled 'nerf Nukara mines' thread, then I'll save us both a lot of time and just not try to convince you otherwise, since I doubt I could, and in turn, you can enjoy the Nukara mines as much as you want. My primary point from this thread is that this 'routine' has happened twice already. Once with trics, once with tachyon mines, and now a third time with these.

    Agree to disagree in this case, I think it's just easier for both of us.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    iskandus wrote: »
    I feel asleep after the first two paragraphs. Is this Superlong Text Online, STO?

    - Never been hit by a Tric mine, then again I joined STO only after they supposedly nerf these mines

    - Have the Ferengi mines on Fed toon but never used it in combat after some tests, pretty useless for my builds

    - What's new? Another veiled attack at Nukara mines. :rolleyes: Someone has yet to show these mines either one-shot people or they hit targets most of the time, unlike you know, DHC.

    I am all for nerfing the Nukara mines, in exchange I want a comparable accuracy rating for DHC and Beams, that is they all suffer a 80% accuracy penalty so that they will be approximately equivalent to the hit % of mines. Fair is fair, right? :cool:

    Well if you weren't there for the tric mines or the tachyon mines when they were op then you missed a lot. Getting 1 hit for crazy damage with all def buffs on or having no shields no matter what you do was really bad. The Nukara mines aren't as bad, but they do need tweeking.

    Also, DHC by nature cant 1 shot anything...because, well, its a volley and unless I'm misunderstanding you, all mines have 100% accuracy, so I don't get your argument about accuracy compared to beams and cannons.

    Oh and make sure you read all of mimey's post...it was far from a wall-o-text and had good points in it and history in it.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited July 2013
    The tach mines, haven't seen anyone dropping these in ages either. They got nerfed as well did they not ?
    Yes, they did.

    Went from 50% shield resistance debuff (max) to 25%. And then they added resistance to the debuff ala Power Insulators. So, they basically do about 12.5% of what they used to be able to do...or something like that.
  • nulonunulonu Member Posts: 507 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Maybe I've been lucky but I run a torp bomber b'rel and even on occasion when I get caught I usually survive. I've seen it take me to 10-15% but I've also seen it catch me and then after a second or two the web is gone and I'm wondering why it broke off of me with barely any hold and hardly any damage. I'm hardly an expert and I don't have access to these to try them myself, but they seem rather underwhelming from what I've seen. Has anyone else had them just break off for no apparent reason?
  • naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The lesson being that the other two mines were a royal PITA until they got nerfed, thus, nerf the stupid Nukara mines as well.

    And they all lived happily ever after...
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    photon and quantum mines will forever be worthless as long as shields have a built in 75% resistance to kinetic damage. tric mines are still so powerful that they can be deadly, they just arent an i win button anymore. the scum that hoped on them before dont use them anymore because they never had any skill to begin with, and they cant get guarantied kills with them anymore. surly those people if they are still around are all over the web mines. the rest of us just have little interest in mines, unless they are transphasic mines. i dont see plasma dot builds much anymore, people seem to like the spike penetration from transpacific more. chronotons seem to have been abandoned since LoR, proboly because of EPtE tripling the average movement speed of everything. that also makes it harder for mines to ever hit anything.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    photon and quantum mines will forever be worthless as long as shields have a built in 75% resistance to kinetic damage. tric mines are still so powerful that they can be deadly, they just arent an i win button anymore. the scum that hoped on them before dont use them anymore because they never had any skill to begin with, and they cant get guarantied kills with them anymore. surly those people if they are still around are all over the web mines. the rest of us just have little interest in mines, unless they are transphasic mines. i dont see plasma dot builds much anymore, people seem to like the spike penetration from transpacific more. chronotons seem to have been abandoned since LoR, proboly because of EPtE tripling the average movement speed of everything. that also makes it harder for mines to ever hit anything.

    Two things.

    First, I just want to say I agree with DDIS. Oftentimes it seems that we may be at odds, and this is furthest from the truth. And I didn't even READ his post. His text makes my cerebral cortex wither. He says I'm just jealous I don't have his legs.

    I say "So what?".

    Second thing. Mine dispersal patterns need to go BACK to engineering where they were in the first place. Just get it done. Stop jerking around plz. And take FAW with you. And take TSSx back to Science. Have a GREAT DAY, kkthx.

    Seriously just put the TRIBBLE back where the original guys had it.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    Well if you weren't there for the tric mines or the tachyon mines when they were op then you missed a lot. Getting 1 hit for crazy damage with all def buffs on or having no shields no matter what you do was really bad. The Nukara mines aren't as bad, but they do need tweeking.

    In theory, everything needs tweeking because there is always going to be people unhappy about something. I say Nukara mines will not be touched because the overwhelming vast majority of people in STO are in PvE and they love these mines. In Kerrat, it's the Borg cubes that are getting hit by these mines most of the time and it's obvious because the visual can be seen very far away. If they touch these mines, after all these PvEers have grinded so hard for it, they are going to TRIBBLE off far more people than all the PvPers added together X 10. So no, it ain't happening. Unless there is a bug, which means something needs to be fixed, then this is something else. No sign of bug on these mines however and there are lots of real bugs in game that require their attention.
    Also, DHC by nature cant 1 shot anything...because, well, its a volley and unless I'm misunderstanding you, all mines have 100% accuracy, so I don't get your argument about accuracy compared to beams and cannons.

    When you fire the DHC, it will hit most of the time and you can do so pretty much every 1.5 sec When you deploy mines, every 20-30 sec, the chance they actually reach their target is about 20% of the time +/-. In other words, you need to deploy the mines about 5 times on average before they score a hit.
    Oh and make sure you read all of mimey's post...it was far from a wall-o-text and had good points in it and history in it.

    I lied, I did finish it. But clearly "succinct" is not in his dictionary. Some of the claims are exaggerated and misleading but I don't have the energy to debunk each of them. Center of it all is the one about mines requires minimal investments whereas energy weapon does. :rolleyes: It's so grotesque and false on this point alone, he can be hammered to death.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    naevius wrote: »
    The lesson being that the other two mines were a royal PITA until they got nerfed, thus, nerf the stupid Nukara mines as well.

    And they all lived happily ever after...

    Trend is always changing and lessons are learned from past errors. The reason STO has become Escorts Online is the direct result of the mistakes that Cryptic made in the past. The fact is, on the Exchange, a Phaser/Disruptor Tactical Console Mk XII Purple sells for about 40 million ec a piece. Whereas a mine damage boosting tactical console Mk XII purple sells for 20K ec. The difference is an astronomical 20000% :eek: You can't possibly argue there is not something wrong here judging by these numbers alone.

    In terms of % utilization of weapon in pvp, my guesstimate is energy weapons account for 85% of all where cannons split 2/3 with beam being the rest of 1/3. There is about 12% or so weapons being torpedos. The utilization of mine is a sad 3% or less, prior to the introduction of Nukara web mines. Even then, the 3% number was skewed by the presence of dedicated bomber builds who use nothing but projectiles, which means the common usage among non-bomber build is likely 1% or less.

    Mines have long be somewhat problematic from a design standpoint. In late 2012, Cryptic proposed about merging the mines & Torpedo tactical consoles to encourage greater utilization of mines. The plan never took fly for unknown reason but the relevant threads are still viewable, fascinating reading.

    Nerfing of paid items such as the Concentrated Tachyon mines is extremely risky and a move that Cryptic will likely not do again. Subsequent change of the bio-nuclear warhead was met with outrage and rolled back right away. Hence, as we are seeing with the Valdore Console, despite loud cries for nerf, it was met with deaf ear. If paid items can be nerfed, then people will be less likely to buy in the future. Fix a bug yes, absolutely, nerfing? No.

    The point is you think they will "nerf" web mines because they have done so in the past but that's misgudied. What you failed to grasp is the situations are not comparable at all. Tric mines, supposedly, was creating havoc in PvE - destroying things out of order - in other words, completely disruptive to the game. Whatever effect it has on the PvP was likely a secondary consideration or aka. tag along effect. Tachyon mines had bugs, where PI was not resisting where it should. One can say it was to fix bugs. The Nukara mines have no bugs, it's working as designed and as intended and it's highly valued by PvE crowd. Most importantly, it's not disrupting PvE gameplay like Tric mines used to. The fact many of the NPCs have been buffed since LoR, especially on Elite level, this weapon becomes a welcome and necessary addition.

    What we are seeing is a deliberate move away from Escorts Online and the DHC based on the new Nukara T4 rep bonus, the upcoming damage bonus from all power level, greater emphasis on Auxiliary power & damage and etc. Many dev are on the record for saying they are trying to stir away from the DHC and high DPS escorts by giving the others more options. For them to "nerf" the only mine that is even remotely used is unthinkable - read not going to happen. The end result is no one will be carrying any mines, period. Then it will be back to DHC, beams and a few torpedo and nothing else.
  • kronosathkronosath Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I like mines. I use mines in a sci torp/mine boat.

    The problem is that every weapon is buffed by a tac captain(logical and appropriate) and in an escort.

    Example: Trics were deadly with a dispersal pattern from an escort buffed by a tac captain, 3-4 of them crit.
    In the average a sci torp boat, 2(or 3) slots are assigned to tac, so a dispersal pattern is out of the question (tac team, THY or TS that's your choice of abilities)

    Tachyon mines, in an escort you are right again big bonus with no cost. In a sci strip shield build should be vital. Shield stripping is not viable by any means. Not because of the mines, but because of imbalances and focusing on other more simple sections.

    Nukara mines. The same for an escort or even a cruiser big bonus. For a sci torp boat that actually wants to spec into hold and disable an addition. Paired with tractor mines bring some damage with the hold. (Note that EptE can be buffed by doff for immunity for those that do not know, for the tractors not the web mines).

    My opinion is that each ship category should get specific weapons, cannons, beams, mines, torps, buffed by builds and ships combined. The equivalent that you do not slot a magic staff to a knight or a two-hand axe to a wizard, you could do it but it will be foolish. Unfortunately, for me the equivalent is possible in STO.
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Having experience with using full tric build when it was at its worse I can say from experience that the Nukara mines are 100% more a problem in pvp and pve. NPCs can't resist it either and are dumber then players, that is one reason tric got nerfed, I 1 shot donatra on elite before with DPB3 trics, total damage was around 1.3 mil or so. The Nukara mines are breaking pvp, but more importantly pve also and taking the challenge away. It won't be the first rep system thing that was fixed because it broke pvp and pve, the t4 omega shield heal also did that, also t4 romulan placate.

    I think it should be across the board nerf to Nukara mines in both pvp and pve, but if Cryptic won't do that they can do the same solution they found to the Cryo gun on the ground, just reduce its effectivness against players while leaving its pve effectivness the same.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    thissler wrote: »
    Two things.

    First, I just want to say I agree with DDIS. Oftentimes it seems that we may be at odds, and this is furthest from the truth. And I didn't even READ his post. His text makes my cerebral cortex wither. He says I'm just jealous I don't have his legs.

    I say "So what?".

    Second thing. Mine dispersal patterns need to go BACK to engineering where they were in the first place. Just get it done. Stop jerking around plz. And take FAW with you. And take TSSx back to Science. Have a GREAT DAY, kkthx.

    Seriously just put the TRIBBLE back where the original guys had it.

    i suppose i should have hit enter once or twice.

    i think your imagining things regarding mines patterns and TSSx, those were always tactical
    iskandus wrote: »
    Trend is always changing and lessons are learned from past errors. The reason STO has become Escorts Online is the direct result of the mistakes that Cryptic made in the past. The fact is, on the Exchange, a Phaser/Disruptor Tactical Console Mk XII Purple sells for about 40 million ec a piece. Whereas a mine damage boosting tactical console Mk XII purple sells for 20K ec. The difference is an astronomical 20000% :eek: You can't possibly argue there is not something wrong here judging by these numbers alone.

    the reason theres a 20000% difference in price is because shields have a built in 75% resistance base to kinetic damage, and it only goes up from there. thats why people use BO instead of torps too. the old tric mines or the web mines, they dont let something like shields or any legitimate defense stop them though, they simply kill you, and thats a bad thing. skill should be the largest part of any successful kill, not what you used to kill with.



    oh, and they screwed up the tach mines. at the same time they cut thier effect in half, and fixed them so power insulaters protected agienst them. we spoke up saying bort no! one or the other or you will ruin them! but it was to late by then. the double nerf of them was wrong, and not what we were calling for
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    VD"s thoughts on mines. Please feel free to ignore. I'll probably forget about this post in a few minutes anyway.

    1) Mines should have more health than they currently do. It shouldn't be some random shot from a turret popping them.

    2) Mines should do significantly more damage than a torpedo. Firing rate sort of thing.

    3) Mines should have charges. DPA/DPB should consume more charges than simply using the mine. This may allow more mines to be dispersed in a period of time than currently, but it would reduce the overall numbers of mines that could be dispersed in an overall period of time.

    Those three things...make me think of mines. Something that you're dropping in an attempt to control some area of the map. More often than not, they're being used akin to bombs.

    So, let's add another projectile - Bomb.

    1) Bombs would have more health than Mines, but they would not be able to move.

    2) Bombs would do more damage than normally dropped Mines and would do it within a certain radius - but they would have a slower firing rate than Mines.

    3) Bombs too would have charges, but there would be no pattern that affects them like DPA/DPB.

    4) Destroying a Bomb would cause it to explode. Blow them up at range (and please try not to troll your team...ahem, lol).

    The Bomb thing kind of came to mind from the Mega Torp. Even #4 - it's a trip to watch folks blow it up when it is near somebody on their team.

    So you'd have Torp, Mines, and Bombs....

    ...did this ignore much of what was said in the thread? Maybe...work it into what I said or not - I'm going to smoke.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    the double nerf of them was wrong, and not what we were calling for

    Unfortunately, things like this happen too often.

    Folks say there is a problem with A and the issue is X. Cryptic implements Y, which doesn't really fix X but does weaken A - then they come along and address X as well - meaning that A's far worse off than anybody wanted. It's rare that they will come back and do anything about Y after having done X...leaving A neutered.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Unfortunately, things like this happen too often.

    Folks say there is a problem with A and the issue is X. Cryptic implements Y, which doesn't really fix X but does weaken A - then they come along and address X as well - meaning that A's far worse off than anybody wanted. It's rare that they will come back and do anything about Y after having done X...leaving A neutered.

    Bingo! This is what I suspect many hope to see happening when they say : "Nukara Mines need a little tweaking." It can't be just a "little", not with one of the most inept dev team out there. The countless number of bugs that are still in-game without being fixed for years is jaw dropping. Take example of the Scimitar bugged thread @ Romulan Flotilla : http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=777691&page=29 They were supposed to fix the bugs of a hot new ship. Dev posted there and in the bug forum. After the patch, the problems were made worse, and the supposed UI fix on shield reg. that was in the patch note remains broken. And yes, they did fix one thing - shield reg. while cloaked. This is Cryptic "fixing". :( Now the dev has gone into hiding. The ship will probably remain broken forever since the honeymoon period is already over.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    they should start by changing the damage type to one that actually exists in space. physical damage on the ground are from unarmed melee, is the web punching the hull? it could be argued that it should be kinetic, or even a neutral energy damage, like FBP. 50% shield pen too, not 100%, thats hellishly silly. its like it was made by someone whos never pvp'ed, id be so shocked if that were the case.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    i suppose i should have hit enter once or twice.

    i think your imagining things regarding mines patterns and TSSx, those were always tactical



    the reason theres a 20000% difference in price is because shields have a built in 75% resistance base to kinetic damage, and it only goes up from there. thats why people use BO instead of torps too. the old tric mines or the web mines, they dont let something like shields or any legitimate defense stop them though, they simply kill you, and thats a bad thing. skill should be the largest part of any successful kill, not what you used to kill with.



    oh, and they screwed up the tach mines. at the same time they cut thier effect in half, and fixed them so power insulaters protected agienst them. we spoke up saying bort no! one or the other or you will ruin them! but it was to late by then. the double nerf of them was wrong, and not what we were calling for

    They were only always tactical in the release. Absolutely nothing in the design of the abilities indicates they were ever intended to be used with the captain design as it was originally implemented. There is every indication that it was intended to be the same as ground combat. Same with the deployable space turrets, etc. Once these abilities go BACK where the original design had them, a lot of the **** that upsets people would stop.

    We would still have the poor choice of allowing captain abilities to move across ship types but that was a failure of judgement that will also never be addressed.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    thissler wrote: »
    They were only always tactical in the release. Absolutely nothing in the design of the abilities indicates they were ever intended to be used with the captain design as it was originally implemented. There is every indication that it was intended to be the same as ground combat. Same with the deployable space turrets, etc. Once these abilities go BACK where the original design had them, a lot of the **** that upsets people would stop.

    We would still have the poor choice of allowing captain abilities to move across ship types but that was a failure of judgement that will also never be addressed.

    The "****" sounds like one of my posts here and there asking folks to look at Ground - look at Space - look at Ground - look at Space...and trying not to /facepalm. :(

    On Ground:
    Tac - 15
    Eng - 14
    Sci - 14

    = 43 abilities

    In Space:
    Tac - 16 (only because BTS was broken out to four, should be one ability with four choices)
    Eng - 14 (only because EPtX was broken out to four, should be one ability with four choices - only because AtX was broken out to three, should be one ability with three choices))
    Sci - 18

    = 48 abilities...but it's actually 13/9/18 for 40 abilities.

    Both Tac and Eng...ahem, lost out in the efforts to try to create Sci in the game - as it never existed in the shows/movies. Eng lost out further with things they did on the ground becoming consoles/weapons.

    It's kind of made that much more...funny...because of the various complaints about where Sci abilities sit these days by many folk.

    Course, they can't fix any of that. It's too heavily engrained in the game now.

    edit: And that's without looking at the 14/14/14 Ground Kits...where yeah, Eng has the Bomb! ;)
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