EDIT: Wanted to edit this first post to provide a simpler read (have had complaints about the math in the thread, lol - and yeah, I went overboard).
So basically:
If you're in an Escort, you're going to get 0.55 the listed value of the +Def from APO. If you're in a non-Escort, you're going to get 0.45 the listed value. That's variable, though - working along the lines of how Impulse Speed affects that +45% you might have from going over 24 Impulse.
So if you're below 24 Impulse, you'll only get a percentage of that percentage of the listed +Def from APO.
Thanks to frtoaster for the 0.55/0.45 numbers.
There's also an issue with the +Speed from APO, but that's still a work in progress.
BTW, this isn't Tribble talk - this is live on Holo.
Look at your Defense on the ship window.
Look at the tooltip on your APO.
Hit APO.
Look at your Defense on the ship window.
Guy #1
Base Bonus Defense: 85%
APO1 (+26.3%) Defense: 99.5% (+14.5%)
APO3 (+43.8%) Defense: 109.1 (+24.1%)
Guy #2
Base Bonus Defense: 75%
APO3 (+44.9%) Defense: 95.2% (+20.2%)
Guy #3
Base Bonus Defense: 82.5%
APO1 (+26.9%) Defense: 94.6% (+12.1%)
Guy #4
Base Bonus Defense: 80%
APO1 (+25.6%) Defense: 94.1% (+14.1%)
Guy #5
Base Bonus Defense: 70%
APO1 (+25.6%) Defense: 81.5% (+11.5%)
edit: Both EM and SFM are adding their bonuses normally.
Those numbers are strange, but are you certain it didn't always work that way? It might be applying the bonus to some base we are not aware of. Also, I recall reading a Tribble patch note that said how EM calculates defense was changed. (What is SFM?)
This is off-topic, but I just realized something. Accuracy and defense are not really percentages of anything, right? They are just stats that counter each other.
Those numbers are strange, but are you certain it didn't always work that way? It might be applying the bonus to some base we are not aware of.
I'm a wheeee pilot. I noticed that I was getting hit more. I figured it was more folks running Nukara, folks that had Accurate, did skill rebuilds for Targeting...figured they'd improved something on their end.
As for them adding to some "hidden" base - none of the numbers are consistent as if they were.
However, hrmm...multiplication showed something interesting:
Guy #1
Base 85%
APO1: 99.5 / 1.263 = 78.8%
APO3: 109.1 / 1.438 = 75.9%
Guy #2
Base 75%
APO3: 95.2 / 1.449 = 65.7%
Guy #3
Base 82.5%
APO1: 94.6 / 1.269 = 74.6%
Guy #4
Base 80%
APO1: 94.1 / 1.256 = 74.9%
Guy #5
Base 70%
APO1: 81.5 / 1.256 = 64.9%
That Guy #1 & Guy #4 show a number ~10% higher than Guy #2 & Guy #5...could reflect the +10% from being in an Escort. The ~10% higher for Guy #3 on the other hand does not - it's a Warbird, they do not get the +10% for Escorts.
Still, how they would have arrived at those numbers does not make much sense either.
This is off-topic, but I just realized something. Accuracy and defense are not really percentages of anything, right? They are just stats that counter each other.
They're not really percentages as much as they are 0.000 numbers. Like with Guy #1, the base Defense could easily be seen as 0.850, APO1 as 0.995, and APO3 as 1.091 rather than percentages.
They only really cancel each other out when they're equal, leaving you with a 100% To-Hit. Otherwise there's a separate formula to determine the hit. There's a Jedi Council post ( http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=218273 ) that discusses it, has a link to the STOked podcast about it (and a download for the spreadsheet)...the "math" section starts ~28 minutes into the podcast, I believe.
My comments are in red. The numbers have been rounded for convenience.
So what's the difference between the 0.55 guys and the 0.45 guys? escort vs. non-escort?
Meh, wish I'd seen this post before I did that last post.
Yeah, the difference between the 0.55 and 0.45 guys are guys that are getting the +10% Escort Bonus.
Guy #1 - Chel Grett, Guy #2 - JHEC (doesn't get the +10% like the HEC), Guy #3 - Fleet T'Varo(Warbirds don't get the +10%), Guy #4 - MU Advanced, & Guy #5 - MU Vo'Quv.
Why they're applying a 0.45 modifier to the APO bonus for non-Escorts and 0.55 modifier to APO for Escorts...I suppose is the new question then. Which also raises the question of where was this mentioned in any patch notes?
Why they're applying a 0.45 modifier to the APO bonus for non-Escorts and 0.55 modifier to APO for Escorts...I suppose is the new question then. Which also raises the question of where was this mentioned in any patch notes?
I think the base they are using is
(defense from impulse speed) + (escort bonus).
One way to test this is to activate APO at different impulse speeds and see if the defense bonus changes.
Hrmm, yeah - the change in speed is throwing off the changes. Need to hunt down the formula for Impulse's effect on Bonus Defense. Couldn't find it, but it appears to be pretty simple.
45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = Bonus Defense, where X is your Impulse Speed.
With that I can separate out the gain from the APO speed boost to see the APO Def boost.
A) 10.71 imp = ~11.8% (+25%) = 36.8% vs. 36.8% (+0.0%)
18.33 imp = ~30.8% (+25%) = 55.8% vs. 63.7% (+7.9%)
C) 27.5 imp (over 24, so = 45%) (+25%) = 70% vs. 81.5% (+11.5%)
So let's compare that to the +25.6% APO1 says it should be giving...
A) 0.0 / 25.6 = 0.0
7.9 / 25.6 = 0.308
C) 11.5 / 25.6 = 0.45
Okay, so & C) support that it is based upon the amount of Bonus Defense provided by Impulse Speed. A) appears to be an anomaly, eh? The APO Def boost should be ~3%.
Perhaps there is a min speed they've got worked into it?
I could probably switch toons around into different ships to try to find that min, but meh...
...hrmm, even though the sample/test was pretty small - I'd say that's how they've got it working.
Actual APO Def Boost = Tooltip # * (AO Boosted Impulse Def Boost / 100) ... (with some sort of min Imp)
Hrmm...I might test with more ships still. But not now. I'm not happy...meh.
edit: Okay, so just some changes to Eng Power on the same ship to see. (Lol, but first a complaint - I'm so sick of the calc/recalc issues in this game. 1/4 impulse was 5.67. Log back in and it's 5.27. Going max and back, doesn't change it - have to change power settings (click another, then click back) and tada, it's 5.67 again.)
Okay, I give up.
So I boost Eng Power by 5 and hit APO. Before recording the numbers, I decide to double check the 5.67 numbers I got before. So I switch back to the other power setting. Impulse at quarter is 7.38 now. Can't get back to the 5.67. How do I get back eventually? Hitting APO at 7.38...letting APO wear off...and tada, I'm back to the 5.67.
So back at the 5.67, I hit the APO again and...I've gotten three different speeds and three different defenses.
I beam down to a planet and then back to orbit...back at 5.27 again. Switching power settings (balanced to engine, etc - like I did before) and nope, not back at 5.67. Max impulse, change settings, change back, nope - max, nope...going for a smoke.
And...it's at 5.67 again. What did I do? Nothing. I wasn't here. It just eventually changed on its own. Maybe that's what happened previously as well - it just eventually corrected itself and switching power settings was just a coincidence.
Still not getting the same numbers, though. 9.71 impulse and 34.9% defense is at least appearing consistently now. Let me compare that with the stuff from above.
9.71 impulse...9.3% Defense + 25% = 34.3%
It's showing 34.9% A difference of 0.6%.
0.6 / 25.6 = 0.02...meh, doesn't mesh with nor C).
Okay, suspecting that the 0 faith I have in Cryptic numbers at this point was also a display error ( /smirk )...I decided to go ahead and do a quick test on the other four guys @ 1/4 impulse.
Well, they're all relatively close (again, rounding) - that I'm comfortable with saying that's how the math works. I'm not at all comfortable with the change, mind you.
By the way, I had to redo each of them. Each was done three times. The 1/4 impulse speed changed a few minutes after the first APO. So it was a case of hitting APO, waiting for the speed to change - hitting APO again, recording the information - waiting, hitting APO again, and recording the information again. The 2nd and 3rd numbers matched in these four cases. I did not muck about with anything like I did with the Carrier trying to figure what was going on...I simply didn't care at this point.
edit: For those wondering what the big deal is...
Guy #1 vs. somebody with Accurate/9 Targeting/[Acc]x3 (+55% Accuracy) had the following To-Hit...
Base 85%: 76.9%
APO3 128.8%: 57.5%
The To-Hit now...
Base 85%: 76.9%
APO3 109.1%: 64.9%
Gave them a +7.4% To-Hit.
vs. [Acc]x2
APO3 128.8%: 54.4%
APO3 109.1%: 60.9%
+6.5% To-Hit
vs. [Acc]x1
APO3 128.8%: 51.6%
APO3 109.1%: 57.4%
+5.8% To-Hit
vs. [Acc]x3 + Nukara (for the beam folks)
APO3 128.8%: 61.1%
APO3 109.1%: 69.4%
+8.3% To-Hit
Guy #5 in the Carrier vs. the Accurate/9 Targeting/[Acc]x3 (+55%)?
Do the passive bonuses like elusive even factor in anymore?
Not when you zone. /cough
If you've got Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (+25% combined), when you zone in and are standing still (including from a respawn) - you'll be at 0% Bonus Defense instead of +10%. The 9 Maneuvers (+15%) covers the standing still penalty (-15%); but the Elusive (+10%) won't kick in until you throttle up and move some.
Otherwise, Elusive adds its +10% fine.
9 Maneuvers adds its +15% fine all the time.
EM is variable up to +25%.
SFM adds its +15% fine.
The Aegis Engine +5% is borked like Elusive from above.
2pc Aegis +5% doesn't apply unless you're moving.
+10% Escort requires you to be moving.
Captain/BOFF traits add their +X% fine.
If you've got Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (+25% combined), when you zone in and are standing still (including from a respawn) - you'll be at 0% Bonus Defense instead of +10%. The 9 Maneuvers (+15%) covers the standing still penalty (-15%); but the Elusive (+10%) won't kick in until you throttle up and move some.
Otherwise, Elusive adds its +10% fine.
9 Maneuvers adds its +15% fine all the time.
EM is variable up to +25%.
SFM adds its +15% fine.
The Aegis Engine +5% is borked like Elusive from above.
2pc Aegis +5% doesn't apply unless you're moving.
+10% Escort requires you to be moving.
Captain/BOFF traits add their +X% fine.
I was curiuos as often, while moving at flank speed, the Elusive passive never kicks in.
This on one of my toons that has used the trait respec.
APO has always been bugged, it always stated to only give 5 seconds of extra bonus defense and always gave it for the full 15 sec, not sure if they changed the tooltip in the meanwhile.
Just use 5 Subterfuges, Elusive trait etc whoop 25+% bonus when stationary ;D
APO has always been bugged, it always stated to only give 5 seconds of extra bonus defense and always gave it for the full 15 sec, not sure if they changed the tooltip in the meanwhile.
Just use 5 Subterfuges, Elusive trait etc whoop 25+% bonus when stationary ;D
Oh yeah, I've been right there with the folks pointing out that the 5s bonus lasted 15s. And even though it is giving reduced +Def with this, it still say 5s but gives it for 15s.
As for this being an additional bug, given some of the stealth changes being made - have to wonder if it is a bug or something they meant to test that wasn't meant to go live yet, etc, etc, etc.
If it was a case they meant to adjust it based on speed like they did with EM (wondering if that's what they've done here...major stealth nerf...then offer the change, folks will like it is better than what they had - even though it's still a nerf compared to what they had before the stealth change)...shouldn't the formula work based on what the buff would have been?
Kind of like that 45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = the +Def from Speed...
Y - ((24 - X) * Z) = A; the +Def from APO...where X remains Impulse Speed, Y would be the tooltip number for +Def from APO, and Z would be a variable based on the value of Y.
Say Y was 25.6, then we could look at the rest to figure it out. We know that they've basically got a min of 6 Impulse implemented in the system for the 0%. So we can try to solve the equation for Y = 25.6, X = 6, and A = 0.
25.6 - ((24 - 6) * Z) = 0
25.6 - (18 * Z) = 0
25.6 = 18 * Z
25.6 / 18 = Z
~1.42 = Z; the 1.42 is repeating...22222222222wheeeeforever. /ahem
So, with a X of 24..we'd get the full +25.6% Defense.
But we can't proceed. What? What now?
The speed bonus from APO is off too. For that Guy #5 I had in the earlier example...
...I was so focused on the +Def, I didn't even notice the +Impulse was off too.
His APO1 is supposed to give +151.2% flight speed.
A) 5.67 to 10.71 is...+88.9% (the expected speed: 14.24)
11.36 to 18.33 is...+61.4% (the expected speed: 28.54)
C) 17.04 to 27.5 is...+61.4% (the expected speed: 42.80)
This actually means two things:
1) Obviously it is not providing the buff it states it will.
2) Because of that, the +Def from Impulse Speed will be wrong.
Example B above...the buffed speed should have been over 24 and thus resulted in the broken 0.45 modified +25.6% - but it in turn is giving a lower speed and thus only a partial amount of the partial buff to defense.
/facepalm
I know the devs are busy with a ton of things - but uh - I'd be really curious as to an explanation about all of this...
What if the % speed bonuses aply to the base speed ratio meaning that EM speed boost is not boosted by Apo or ATD, that will make it harder to calculate how much speed what would be giving.
This would also connect with impulse thrusters skill
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Oh yeah, I've been right there with the folks pointing out that the 5s bonus lasted 15s. And even though it is giving reduced +Def with this, it still say 5s but gives it for 15s.
As for this being an additional bug, given some of the stealth changes being made - have to wonder if it is a bug or something they meant to test that wasn't meant to go live yet, etc, etc, etc.
If it was a case they meant to adjust it based on speed like they did with EM (wondering if that's what they've done here...major stealth nerf...then offer the change, folks will like it is better than what they had - even though it's still a nerf compared to what they had before the stealth change)...shouldn't the formula work based on what the buff would have been?
Kind of like that 45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = the +Def from Speed...
Y - ((24 - X) * Z) = A; the +Def from APO...where X remains Impulse Speed, Y would be the tooltip number for +Def from APO, and Z would be a variable based on the value of Y.
Say Y was 25.6, then we could look at the rest to figure it out. We know that they've basically got a min of 6 Impulse implemented in the system for the 0%. So we can try to solve the equation for Y = 25.6, X = 6, and A = 0.
25.6 - ((24 - 6) * Z) = 0
25.6 - (18 * Z) = 0
25.6 = 18 * Z
25.6 / 18 = Z
~1.42 = Z; the 1.42 is repeating...22222222222wheeeeforever. /ahem
So, with a X of 24..we'd get the full +25.6% Defense.
But we can't proceed. What? What now?
The speed bonus from APO is off too. For that Guy #5 I had in the earlier example...
...I was so focused on the +Def, I didn't even notice the +Impulse was off too.
His APO1 is supposed to give +151.2% flight speed.
A) 5.67 to 10.71 is...+88.9% (the expected speed: 14.24)
11.36 to 18.33 is...+61.4% (the expected speed: 28.54)
C) 17.04 to 27.5 is...+61.4% (the expected speed: 42.80)
This actually means two things:
1) Obviously it is not providing the buff it states it will.
2) Because of that, the +Def from Impulse Speed will be wrong.
Example B above...the buffed speed should have been over 24 and thus resulted in the broken 0.45 modified +25.6% - but it in turn is giving a lower speed and thus only a partial amount of the partial buff to defense.
/facepalm
I know the devs are busy with a ton of things - but uh - I'd be really curious as to an explanation about all of this...
To be completly honest Virus, I never really bothered myself too much with all the numbers in this game, 99% of the time they are inaccurate or not there at all or simply make no sense.
Do everything on feeling and things will go much better, I promise!
Also Subspace Modulator was bugged last time i checked it the bonus defense buff wasn't dropping after it worn off, dunno if thats fixed either but lolol. Every new piece of equipment they add in this game bugs it out even more.
What if the % speed bonuses aply to the base speed ratio meaning that EM speed boost is not boosted by Apo or ATD, that will make it harder to calculate how much speed what would be giving.
This would also connect with impulse thrusters skill
Wasn't talking about the EM speed boost in it...just the straight up APO speed boost wasn't being applied.
50/40 Engine Power (1/4 Imp)
Starting Speed: 6.13
Listed APO1 Boost: +151.2%
Expected Speed: 15.4
APO1 Boosted Speed: 10.89
Actual APO1 Boost: +77.7%
Difference in Listed vs. Actual: 0.514
60/50 Engine Power (1/4 Imp)
Starting Speed: 6.43
Listed APO1 Boost: +158.6%
Expected Speed: 16.63
APO1 Boosted Speed: 11.76
Actual APO1 Boost: +82.9%
Difference in Listed vs. Actual: 0.523
As a couple of examples. The APO1 boost is affected by Engine Power - the % is not affected by 1/4, 1/2, etc...whether it is the listed or actual boost. The differences between listed and actual is not consistent.
Would have to break out a spreadsheet to take a look at it, and I really just don't have the patience for it at the moment...
Do everything on feeling and things will go much better, I promise!
Um, that's why I looked at it in the first place. It felt wrong. I was getting hit far more often than I had been getting hit. Initially as I said, I figured it was just a case that some folks had geared up/etc/etc/etc...but it soon became apparent that something was wrong. It was just too widespread and even happening in PvE.
And tada...an issue was identified that explained the feeling...
Hrmm, yeah - the change in speed is throwing off the changes. Need to hunt down the formula for Impulse's effect on Bonus Defense. Couldn't find it, but it appears to be pretty simple.
45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = Bonus Defense, where X is your Impulse Speed.
Guys #2 and #3 match predictions quite well. Guys #1 and #4 differ from predictions. The differences are not huge, but they are large enough that I think something else happening here: either a display bug or something different about escorts.
Guys #2 and #3 match predictions quite well. Guys #1 and #4 differ from predictions. The differences are not huge, but they are large enough that I think something else happening here: either a display bug or something different about escorts.
Could be tied to that feeling that something was off that I was experiencing.
So the APO speed bonus clearly does not apply to your actual speed, but some other base speed.
I gave up trying to figure out what was going on with speed...these were the raw numbers I was trying to work with (but there's just too much rounding going on to plot any data points).
EDIT: Wanted to edit this first post to provide a simpler read (have had complaints about the math in the thread, lol - and yeah, I went overboard).
So basically:
If you're in an Escort, you're going to get 0.55 the listed value of the +Def from APO. If you're in a non-Escort, you're going to get 0.45 the listed value. That's variable, though - working along the lines of how Impulse Speed affects that +45% you might have from going over 24 Impulse.
So if you're below 24 Impulse, you'll only get a percentage of that percentage of the listed +Def from APO.
Thanks to frtoaster for the 0.55/0.45 numbers.
There's also an issue with the +Speed from APO, but that's still a work in progress.
BTW, this isn't Tribble talk - this is live on Holo.
It just means it gives a % of base value bonus instead of granting a flat + bonus. That is how everything else works so it makes sense to me!
*edit*
Ok something is really buggy about this. My breen destroyer has +10% bonus defense at 0 impulse (-15% base, +10 destroyer bonus, +15% skill bonus). IF I activate APO 3 that gives a +42.6% bonus defense it tanks down to 3.6%, thats right folks I actually have less defense according to tooltip.
Gonna do more testing but my guess is either a) display es bugged or b) speed boosts inherently modify the bonus defense impulse speed formula or constant.
Ok something is really buggy about this. My breen destroyer has +10% bonus defense at 0 impulse (-15% base, +10 destroyer bonus, +15% skill bonus). IF I activate APO 3 that gives a +42.6% bonus defense it tanks down to 3.6%, thats right folks I actually have less defense according to tooltip.
Gonna do more testing but my guess is either a) display es bugged or b) speed boosts inherently modify the bonus defense impulse speed formula or constant.
The speed and defense values reported by the UI are not consistent under the same conditions (same impulse slider position, no buffs, etc.). The bug is not hard to reproduce: zoning and moving around often changes the numbers.
The speed and defense values reported by the UI are not consistent under the same conditions (same impulse slider position, no buffs, etc.). The bug is not hard to reproduce: zoning and moving around often changes the numbers.
This has really made it a PITA to test things.
The numbers sometimes change by themselves. Sometimes you can do certain things to get them back to what they were - at other times - you can't. About the only thing that's consistent is the ability to break them...not fix them...meh.
Going through that with something I'm trying to do for the tooltip discussion thread.
168.8% for everything else that I'm going through for my post...and lol, when I go to do the second one of the...it's now 157.7% instead.
It's definitely one of the most annoying bugs. It also creates the issue of which number was right - what's actually going on behind the numbers, etc, etc, etc...meh.
Closing thread at the request of the original poster.
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Comments
Derrick - Fed Eng
Guy #1
Base Bonus Defense: 85%
APO1 (+26.3%) Defense: 99.5% (+14.5%)
APO3 (+43.8%) Defense: 109.1 (+24.1%)
Guy #2
Base Bonus Defense: 75%
APO3 (+44.9%) Defense: 95.2% (+20.2%)
Guy #3
Base Bonus Defense: 82.5%
APO1 (+26.9%) Defense: 94.6% (+12.1%)
Guy #4
Base Bonus Defense: 80%
APO1 (+25.6%) Defense: 94.1% (+14.1%)
Guy #5
Base Bonus Defense: 70%
APO1 (+25.6%) Defense: 81.5% (+11.5%)
edit: Both EM and SFM are adding their bonuses normally.
Those numbers are strange, but are you certain it didn't always work that way? It might be applying the bonus to some base we are not aware of. Also, I recall reading a Tribble patch note that said how EM calculates defense was changed. (What is SFM?)
This is off-topic, but I just realized something. Accuracy and defense are not really percentages of anything, right? They are just stats that counter each other.
Er, curious question, but okay...
Guy #1
Hyper Injection Warp Core Mk XI [Eff][Trans]
Guy #2
Overcharged Warp Core Mk XI [EPS][W->A][SSS]
Guy #3
Dual Injection Singularity Core Mk XI [SingA][SingC][SST]
Guy #4
Matter/Anti-Matter Warp Core - Mk 10
Guy #5
Matter/Anti-Matter Warp Core - Mk 10
So what's the difference between the 0.55 guys and the 0.45 guys? escort vs. non-escort?
I'm a wheeee pilot. I noticed that I was getting hit more. I figured it was more folks running Nukara, folks that had Accurate, did skill rebuilds for Targeting...figured they'd improved something on their end.
As for them adding to some "hidden" base - none of the numbers are consistent as if they were.
However, hrmm...multiplication showed something interesting:
Guy #1
Base 85%
APO1: 99.5 / 1.263 = 78.8%
APO3: 109.1 / 1.438 = 75.9%
Guy #2
Base 75%
APO3: 95.2 / 1.449 = 65.7%
Guy #3
Base 82.5%
APO1: 94.6 / 1.269 = 74.6%
Guy #4
Base 80%
APO1: 94.1 / 1.256 = 74.9%
Guy #5
Base 70%
APO1: 81.5 / 1.256 = 64.9%
That Guy #1 & Guy #4 show a number ~10% higher than Guy #2 & Guy #5...could reflect the +10% from being in an Escort. The ~10% higher for Guy #3 on the other hand does not - it's a Warbird, they do not get the +10% for Escorts.
Still, how they would have arrived at those numbers does not make much sense either.
Guy #1
Elusive +10%
9 Maneuvers +15%
>24 Impulse +45%
Escort +10%
Aegis Engines +5%
10 + 15 + 45 + 10 + 5 = +85%
Guy #2
Elusive +10%
9 Maneuvers +15%
>24 Impulse +45%
Aegis Engines +5%
10 + 15 + 45 + 5 = +75%
Guy #3
Elusive +10%
9 Maneuvers +15%
>24 Impulse +45%
Aegis Engines +5%
Infiltrator +2.5%
2x Subterfuge +2.5% each
10 + 15 + 45 + 5 + 2.5 + 5 = +82.5%
Guy #4
Elusive +10%
9 Maneuvers +15%
>24 Impulse +45%
Escort +10%
10 + 15 + 45 + 10 = +80%
Guy #5
Elusive +10%
9 Maneuvers +15%
>24 Impulse +45%
10 + 15 + 45 = +70%
Just don't see how they would have gotten to those "hidden" numbers...meh.
They did a stealth nerf and the pseudo buff regarding Evasive.
They dropped EM down to +15% from +25% on Holo at some point prior to LoR.
With LoR, they made it variable up to +25% based on Impulse Speed.
Subspace Field Modulator
They're not really percentages as much as they are 0.000 numbers. Like with Guy #1, the base Defense could easily be seen as 0.850, APO1 as 0.995, and APO3 as 1.091 rather than percentages.
They only really cancel each other out when they're equal, leaving you with a 100% To-Hit. Otherwise there's a separate formula to determine the hit. There's a Jedi Council post ( http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=218273 ) that discusses it, has a link to the STOked podcast about it (and a download for the spreadsheet)...the "math" section starts ~28 minutes into the podcast, I believe.
Meh, wish I'd seen this post before I did that last post.
Yeah, the difference between the 0.55 and 0.45 guys are guys that are getting the +10% Escort Bonus.
Guy #1 - Chel Grett, Guy #2 - JHEC (doesn't get the +10% like the HEC), Guy #3 - Fleet T'Varo(Warbirds don't get the +10%), Guy #4 - MU Advanced, & Guy #5 - MU Vo'Quv.
Why they're applying a 0.45 modifier to the APO bonus for non-Escorts and 0.55 modifier to APO for Escorts...I suppose is the new question then. Which also raises the question of where was this mentioned in any patch notes?
I think the base they are using is
(defense from impulse speed) + (escort bonus).
One way to test this is to activate APO at different impulse speeds and see if the defense bonus changes.
Would be easiest to test on the Carrier...let me look.
Have to keep in mind APO will boost the speed as well, but let's see...
A) @5.67 Impulse:
24.2% Bonus Defense (-0.8% penalty)
w/APO1 (+25.6%)...(10.71 Impulse): 36.8% (+12.6%)
38.4% Bonus Defense (+13.4% boost)
w/APO1 (+25.6%)...(18.33 Impulse): 63.7% (+25.3%)
C) @17.04 Impulse:
52.6% Bonus Defense (+27.6% boost)
w/APO1 (+25.6%)...(27.5 Impulse): 81.5% (+28.9%)
Hrmm, yeah - the change in speed is throwing off the changes. Need to hunt down the formula for Impulse's effect on Bonus Defense. Couldn't find it, but it appears to be pretty simple.
45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = Bonus Defense, where X is your Impulse Speed.
With that I can separate out the gain from the APO speed boost to see the APO Def boost.
A) 10.71 imp = ~11.8% (+25%) = 36.8% vs. 36.8% (+0.0%)
C) 27.5 imp (over 24, so = 45%) (+25%) = 70% vs. 81.5% (+11.5%)
So let's compare that to the +25.6% APO1 says it should be giving...
A) 0.0 / 25.6 = 0.0
C) 11.5 / 25.6 = 0.45
Okay, so
Perhaps there is a min speed they've got worked into it?
I could probably switch toons around into different ships to try to find that min, but meh...
...hrmm, even though the sample/test was pretty small - I'd say that's how they've got it working.
Actual APO Def Boost = Tooltip # * (AO Boosted Impulse Def Boost / 100) ... (with some sort of min Imp)
Hrmm...I might test with more ships still. But not now. I'm not happy...meh.
edit: Okay, so just some changes to Eng Power on the same ship to see. (Lol, but first a complaint - I'm so sick of the calc/recalc issues in this game. 1/4 impulse was 5.67. Log back in and it's 5.27. Going max and back, doesn't change it - have to change power settings (click another, then click back) and tada, it's 5.67 again.)
Okay, I give up.
So I boost Eng Power by 5 and hit APO. Before recording the numbers, I decide to double check the 5.67 numbers I got before. So I switch back to the other power setting. Impulse at quarter is 7.38 now. Can't get back to the 5.67. How do I get back eventually? Hitting APO at 7.38...letting APO wear off...and tada, I'm back to the 5.67.
So back at the 5.67, I hit the APO again and...I've gotten three different speeds and three different defenses.
I beam down to a planet and then back to orbit...back at 5.27 again. Switching power settings (balanced to engine, etc - like I did before) and nope, not back at 5.67. Max impulse, change settings, change back, nope - max, nope...going for a smoke.
And...it's at 5.67 again. What did I do? Nothing. I wasn't here. It just eventually changed on its own. Maybe that's what happened previously as well - it just eventually corrected itself and switching power settings was just a coincidence.
Still not getting the same numbers, though. 9.71 impulse and 34.9% defense is at least appearing consistently now. Let me compare that with the stuff from above.
9.71 impulse...9.3% Defense + 25% = 34.3%
It's showing 34.9% A difference of 0.6%.
0.6 / 25.6 = 0.02...meh, doesn't mesh with
WTFever...
5.83 imp/24.6%
9.83 imp/37%...9.575 + 25; 2.425 / 25.6 = 0.947
Hey, it was close, eh?
6.13 imp/25.3%
10.89 imp/40.4%...12.225 + 25; 3.175 / 25.6 = 0.124
So yeah, I'm guessing the numbers for A) above were some display/calc issue.
Those last two (there's probably some rounding going on) pretty much confirm that:
Actual APO Def Boost = Tooltip # * (AO Boosted Impulse Def Boost (+10 for Escorts) / 100)
edit2: btw, thank you for pointing out the .45 and .55 thing!
Guy #1
7.31 Imp/38.4%
APO1 (+26.3%)
13.44 Imp/65.4%
18.6% + 40% = 58.6%; 65.4 - 58.6 = 6.8 / 26.3 = ~.259
Expected: ~.286
Guy #2
7.08 Imp/32.7%
APO3 (+44.9%)
12.83 Imp/54.7%
17.1% + 30% = 47.1%; 54.7 - 47.1 = 7.6 / 44.9 = ~.169
Expected: ~.171
Guy #3
8.17 Imp/42.9%
APO1 (+26.9%)
15.47 Imp/67.5%
23.7% + 37.5% = 61.2%; 67.5 - 61.2 = 6.3 / 26.9 = ~.234
Expected: ~.237
Guy #4
8.58 Imp/37.4%
APO1 (+25.6%)
13.59 Imp/60.8%
19% + 35% = 54%; 60.8 - 54 = 6.8 / 25.6 = ~.266
Expected: ~.290
Well, they're all relatively close (again, rounding) - that I'm comfortable with saying that's how the math works. I'm not at all comfortable with the change, mind you.
By the way, I had to redo each of them. Each was done three times. The 1/4 impulse speed changed a few minutes after the first APO. So it was a case of hitting APO, waiting for the speed to change - hitting APO again, recording the information - waiting, hitting APO again, and recording the information again. The 2nd and 3rd numbers matched in these four cases. I did not muck about with anything like I did with the Carrier trying to figure what was going on...I simply didn't care at this point.
edit: For those wondering what the big deal is...
Guy #1 vs. somebody with Accurate/9 Targeting/[Acc]x3 (+55% Accuracy) had the following To-Hit...
Base 85%: 76.9%
APO3 128.8%: 57.5%
The To-Hit now...
Base 85%: 76.9%
APO3 109.1%: 64.9%
Gave them a +7.4% To-Hit.
vs. [Acc]x2
APO3 128.8%: 54.4%
APO3 109.1%: 60.9%
+6.5% To-Hit
vs. [Acc]x1
APO3 128.8%: 51.6%
APO3 109.1%: 57.4%
+5.8% To-Hit
vs. [Acc]x3 + Nukara (for the beam folks)
APO3 128.8%: 61.1%
APO3 109.1%: 69.4%
+8.3% To-Hit
Guy #5 in the Carrier vs. the Accurate/9 Targeting/[Acc]x3 (+55%)?
Was...
APO1 95.6% : 71.1%
Is...
APO1 81.5%: 79.0%
Gave them a +7.9% chance To-Hit...
R.I.P
Not when you zone. /cough
If you've got Elusive and 9 Maneuvers (+25% combined), when you zone in and are standing still (including from a respawn) - you'll be at 0% Bonus Defense instead of +10%. The 9 Maneuvers (+15%) covers the standing still penalty (-15%); but the Elusive (+10%) won't kick in until you throttle up and move some.
Otherwise, Elusive adds its +10% fine.
9 Maneuvers adds its +15% fine all the time.
EM is variable up to +25%.
SFM adds its +15% fine.
The Aegis Engine +5% is borked like Elusive from above.
2pc Aegis +5% doesn't apply unless you're moving.
+10% Escort requires you to be moving.
Captain/BOFF traits add their +X% fine.
I was curiuos as often, while moving at flank speed, the Elusive passive never kicks in.
This on one of my toons that has used the trait respec.
R.I.P
Just use 5 Subterfuges, Elusive trait etc whoop 25+% bonus when stationary ;D
Oh yeah, I've been right there with the folks pointing out that the 5s bonus lasted 15s. And even though it is giving reduced +Def with this, it still say 5s but gives it for 15s.
As for this being an additional bug, given some of the stealth changes being made - have to wonder if it is a bug or something they meant to test that wasn't meant to go live yet, etc, etc, etc.
If it was a case they meant to adjust it based on speed like they did with EM (wondering if that's what they've done here...major stealth nerf...then offer the change, folks will like it is better than what they had - even though it's still a nerf compared to what they had before the stealth change)...shouldn't the formula work based on what the buff would have been?
Kind of like that 45 - ((24 - X) * 2.5) = the +Def from Speed...
Y - ((24 - X) * Z) = A; the +Def from APO...where X remains Impulse Speed, Y would be the tooltip number for +Def from APO, and Z would be a variable based on the value of Y.
Say Y was 25.6, then we could look at the rest to figure it out. We know that they've basically got a min of 6 Impulse implemented in the system for the 0%. So we can try to solve the equation for Y = 25.6, X = 6, and A = 0.
25.6 - ((24 - 6) * Z) = 0
25.6 - (18 * Z) = 0
25.6 = 18 * Z
25.6 / 18 = Z
~1.42 = Z; the 1.42 is repeating...22222222222wheeeeforever. /ahem
So, with a X of 24..we'd get the full +25.6% Defense.
But we can't proceed. What? What now?
The speed bonus from APO is off too. For that Guy #5 I had in the earlier example...
...I was so focused on the +Def, I didn't even notice the +Impulse was off too.
His APO1 is supposed to give +151.2% flight speed.
A) 5.67 to 10.71 is...+88.9% (the expected speed: 14.24)
C) 17.04 to 27.5 is...+61.4% (the expected speed: 42.80)
This actually means two things:
1) Obviously it is not providing the buff it states it will.
2) Because of that, the +Def from Impulse Speed will be wrong.
Example B above...the buffed speed should have been over 24 and thus resulted in the broken 0.45 modified +25.6% - but it in turn is giving a lower speed and thus only a partial amount of the partial buff to defense.
/facepalm
I know the devs are busy with a ton of things - but uh - I'd be really curious as to an explanation about all of this...
This would also connect with impulse thrusters skill
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
To be completly honest Virus, I never really bothered myself too much with all the numbers in this game, 99% of the time they are inaccurate or not there at all or simply make no sense.
Do everything on feeling and things will go much better, I promise!
Also Subspace Modulator was bugged last time i checked it the bonus defense buff wasn't dropping after it worn off, dunno if thats fixed either but lolol. Every new piece of equipment they add in this game bugs it out even more.
I honestly could care less.
Wasn't talking about the EM speed boost in it...just the straight up APO speed boost wasn't being applied.
50/40 Engine Power (1/4 Imp)
Starting Speed: 6.13
Listed APO1 Boost: +151.2%
Expected Speed: 15.4
APO1 Boosted Speed: 10.89
Actual APO1 Boost: +77.7%
Difference in Listed vs. Actual: 0.514
60/50 Engine Power (1/4 Imp)
Starting Speed: 6.43
Listed APO1 Boost: +158.6%
Expected Speed: 16.63
APO1 Boosted Speed: 11.76
Actual APO1 Boost: +82.9%
Difference in Listed vs. Actual: 0.523
As a couple of examples. The APO1 boost is affected by Engine Power - the % is not affected by 1/4, 1/2, etc...whether it is the listed or actual boost. The differences between listed and actual is not consistent.
Would have to break out a spreadsheet to take a look at it, and I really just don't have the patience for it at the moment...
Um, that's why I looked at it in the first place. It felt wrong. I was getting hit far more often than I had been getting hit. Initially as I said, I figured it was just a case that some folks had geared up/etc/etc/etc...but it soon became apparent that something was wrong. It was just too widespread and even happening in PvE.
And tada...an issue was identified that explained the feeling...
I would rewrite this formula as
defense_bonus = 2.5 * speed - 15
In the quote below, my comments are in red.
Guys #2 and #3 match predictions quite well. Guys #1 and #4 differ from predictions. The differences are not huge, but they are large enough that I think something else happening here: either a display bug or something different about escorts.
So the APO speed bonus clearly does not apply to your actual speed, but some other base speed.
I don't understand the numbers in red below.
Could be tied to that feeling that something was off that I was experiencing.
I gave up trying to figure out what was going on with speed...these were the raw numbers I was trying to work with (but there's just too much rounding going on to plot any data points).
ME-PWR/ uE-PWR/ Diff Percent/ APO Boost/ Expected/ Starting/ Actual/ Actual Boost
55 15 0.70 2.554 17.93 7.02 12.58 1.792
58 20 0.70 2.577 18.86 7.32 13.28 1.814
62 25 0.71 2.596 19.76 7.61 13.96 1.834
65 30 0.71 2.611 20.63 7.9 14.63 1.852
68 35 0.71 2.623 21.51 8.2 15.3 1.866
71 40 0.71 2.634 22.39 8.5 15.97 1.879
75 45 0.72 2.642 23.22 8.79 16.63 1.892
78 50 0.72 2.65 24.06 9.08 17.29 1.904
81 55 0.72 2.656 24.91 9.38 17.94 1.913
85 60 0.72 2.661 25.73 9.67 18.6 1.923
88 65 0.72 2.666 26.58 9.97 19.25 1.931
91 70 0.73 2.67 27.39 10.26 19.9 1.940
94 75 0.73 2.673 28.23 10.56 20.54 1.945
99 80 0.73 2.677 29.47 11.01 21.53 1.955
104 85 0.73 2.681 30.72 11.46 22.51 1.964
109 90 0.73 2.684 31.97 11.91 23.49 1.972
114 95 0.74 2.687 33.21 12.36 24.47 1.980
119 100 0.74 2.689 34.45 12.81 25.45 1.987
130 100 0.74 2.692 36.93 13.72 27.43 1.999
Meh, terrible formatting. I'll have to fix that.
Those where just what percentage the actual number was compared to the listed.
It just means it gives a % of base value bonus instead of granting a flat + bonus. That is how everything else works so it makes sense to me!
*edit*
Ok something is really buggy about this. My breen destroyer has +10% bonus defense at 0 impulse (-15% base, +10 destroyer bonus, +15% skill bonus). IF I activate APO 3 that gives a +42.6% bonus defense it tanks down to 3.6%, thats right folks I actually have less defense according to tooltip.
Gonna do more testing but my guess is either a) display es bugged or b) speed boosts inherently modify the bonus defense impulse speed formula or constant.
I'm still not following.
It's more that we don't know what the base value is. The hidden base values in this game make things more mysterious than they need to be.
The speed and defense values reported by the UI are not consistent under the same conditions (same impulse slider position, no buffs, etc.). The bug is not hard to reproduce: zoning and moving around often changes the numbers.
Percentage of percentage...not the flat numbers.
Listed APO1 Boost: +151.2%
Actual APO1 Boost: +77.7%
Difference in Listed vs. Actual: 0.514
77.7 / 151.2
This has really made it a PITA to test things.
The numbers sometimes change by themselves. Sometimes you can do certain things to get them back to what they were - at other times - you can't. About the only thing that's consistent is the ability to break them...not fix them...meh.
Going through that with something I'm trying to do for the tooltip discussion thread.
168.8% for everything else that I'm going through for my post...and lol, when I go to do the second one of the...it's now 157.7% instead.
It's definitely one of the most annoying bugs. It also creates the issue of which number was right - what's actually going on behind the numbers, etc, etc, etc...meh.
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