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STO needs to be harder

jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
STF's are easy.


Yes, you do get killed within seconds in an STF, but the enemies are really weak.
I think all enemy's should be much tougher to kill, and make it harder to live (but not overdone)

What I would like is STO to be harder.




Also in future , can we please have missions, in which you have a choice of how to proceed, like in Star Trek, the captain makes the decision. And you should fail the mission if you proceed with the incorrect decision.
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I hope STO get's better ...
Post edited by jumpingjs on

Comments

  • sander233sander233 Member Posts: 3,992 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    STF's are easy.


    Yes, you do get killed within seconds in an STF, but the enemies are really weak.
    I think all enemy's should be much tougher to kill, and make it harder to live (but not overdone)

    What I would like is STO to be harder.
    :rolleyes:

    Options-> Difficulty -> Elite. ;)
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  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    STF's are easy.


    Yes, you do get killed within seconds in an STF, but the enemies are really weak.
    I think all enemy's should be much tougher to kill, and make it harder to live (but not overdone)

    What I would like is STO to be harder.

    You should have tested the new STFs on Tribble when they launched, they were hard because the ships used actual tactics and torp spreads of doom. It was a challenge, but it was doable.

    Then the masses played it and complained; the nerf hammer fell.

    jumpingjs wrote: »
    Also in future , can we please have missions, in which you have a choice of how to proceed, like in Star Trek, the captain makes the decision. And you should fail the mission if you proceed with the incorrect decision.

    Personally, while I would welcome this mechanic, I don't think the pew pewers would and even if they did it would be a lot more difficult to implement.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Look at the Elachi content (especially the Defense of New Romulus), pre-nerf. It was beautiful. It was a challenge...

    Then, people QQ'd moar about it and it was changed. I haven't re-played the mission since the first two times I played it, 1st on Tribble, with a bunch of Common and under par gear in the D'Deridex, still cleaned out, and again on Holodeck in my fully kitted out Sao Paulo with crafted gear and then I really smacked 'em around, and both times the Elachi weren't some kind of God-Mode ships, they were just harder then the average content.

    I bet that mission is a shell of it's former self now.
  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I'd like to see them add "Ultra Elite" mode... at least for ground STFs.

    Space STFs are already enough of a pain in the neck, IMO.
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  • skhcskhc Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    It's an issue of critter design. Because they're limited in terms of the number of weapons & abilities they have, the only way to make them harder is to up their raw stats or have a lot of them.

    That basically means you have a very narrow window in which the game is challenging without being obnoxious (examples of obnoxiousness would include: 1 hit torpedoes that used to be in STFs and the ridiculously closely packed enemy mobs in the old Fleet Actions).
  • omegaphallicomegaphallic Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You want it to be more difficult use only common equiptment and tier 4 and lower ships.
  • timezargtimezarg Member Posts: 1,268
    edited July 2013
    You want it to be more difficult use only common equiptment and tier 4 and lower ships.

    This. Definitely this. Some folks in my fleet ran Infected Space Elite using Tier 3 ships and below, and presumably similar limitations on weapons (I don't know the particulars there). I heard they had fun :)
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  • azniadeetazniadeet Member Posts: 1,871 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    This could be rolled into a mode where you're forced to use a T1 "TOS era" ship.

    Lots of people want to see a more functional Connie, T'Liss, D7, Miranda, etc... This would give people a chance to use them in a 'historical war games' event.
  • timezargtimezarg Member Posts: 1,268
    edited July 2013
    Ultimately, though, Cryptic kinda needs to be willing to tell the whiners to shush up, at least on occasion. Seriously. Appealing to the lowest common denominator all the time isn't the way to go about things.
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  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited July 2013
    while i agree that some missions are too easy.. they dont need to be made any harder..
    you cant expect everyone to have the best gear..


    if you find you want a challenge, put the game on elite, use white mk ix items from the npc stores and run the episodes or a good foundry mission.

    just because you find the game too easy with your elite fleet gear or whatever, doesn't mean everyone does.
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  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    you cant expect everyone to have the best gear...

    Um, I'm sorry I can't agree with you. The "best gear" is now so easy to obtain it may as well be standard issue.

    The issue is not with gear, but the skill of the pilot. The vast majority of players in this game don't want to lose, but they don't want to be challenged either. They want to do a mission and get a massive reward. Or buy "OP" ships from the C store and expect never to die.

    This is why we have the reputation system at the moment. The previous system wasn't brilliant and was based on luck, but at least you actually had to play the missions to get them.

    Now we have what we have and the people that have some idea about how the game functions find it too easy.

    The fact that the "hardest" content in game can be completed by people with below par ships, speaks volumes of the level of supposed difficulty in this game.
  • totenmettotenmet Member Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    jumpingjs wrote: »
    STF's are easy.


    Yes, you do get killed within seconds in an STF, but the enemies are really weak.
    I think all enemy's should be much tougher to kill, and make it harder to live (but not overdone)

    What I would like is STO to be harder.




    Also in future , can we please have missions, in which you have a choice of how to proceed, like in Star Trek, the captain makes the decision. And you should fail the mission if you proceed with the incorrect decision.
    Why? Becuase YOU want that?

    If so, why don't you created very hard missions in the Foudry then?
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,991 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Actually, between chasing the Coward Balls all over the place and the multiple one shot invisitorps I think STFs are really frustrating, not so much easy or hard.

    They don't need to be harder, they need to be BETTER.
  • oldschooldorkoldschooldork Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Want the stf's harder? Then just do an elite stf in a shuttle. Problem solved.
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  • lucianazetalucianazeta Member Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Rename the STF difficulties and make harder versions.

    Novice would be our current normal.

    Normal would be between our current normal and elite and should be designed to teach strategies useful for our current elite.

    Advanced should be as elite is now.

    And then the new elite should be a step higher over our current elite, take Infected Space as an example of what I mean, replace the starting cube with a tactical cube, same with the cubes above the trans, make the nanites faster and replace the final tactical cube with a command ship.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Want the stf's harder? Then just do an elite stf in a shuttle. Problem solved.
    You can't anymore, they put a stop to that with the whole active craft thingy.

    Surprisingly it still works with Fleet Alert though.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    As has been said above, if you want the missions to be harder choose the elite difficulty and use weaker gear and boff abilities. Instead of using MK XII purples use MK VI whites. Instead of training all your boffs for maximum cool-downs don't give them minimum ranks in their boff abilities. Use a ship 1 or more Tiers lower, etc.

    I took an NX all the way to VA. It was far more challenging and interesting then using a T5.5 Fleet ship. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • matrix0matrix0 Member Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Look at the Elachi content (especially the Defense of New Romulus), pre-nerf. It was beautiful. It was a challenge...

    Then, people QQ'd moar about it and it was changed. I haven't re-played the mission since the first two times I played it, 1st on Tribble, with a bunch of Common and under par gear in the D'Deridex, still cleaned out, and again on Holodeck in my fully kitted out Sao Paulo with crafted gear and then I really smacked 'em around, and both times the Elachi weren't some kind of God-Mode ships, they were just harder then the average content.

    I bet that mission is a shell of it's former self now.

    Well say. Too many wussies in STO nowadays. They want everything in a silver plate. I played Defense of New Romulus pre-nerfed, and it' was awesome. It would be super hard and undoable if one just thought going in with blazing guns.

    The mission requires strategy/thinking that nowadays players don't seem to have. It's pretty simple to win the mission. All one needs are precise flying and patience. The Elachi ship has a big weakness. Their forward shield is down when they're using their wave weapon. One can inflict massive dmg during this firing sequence. I used this strategy to solo the mission. Also ppl keep forgetting that the mission can be easily finished in team.

    So many wussies means less challenge contents because the devs wont be bother thinking a way to outsmart players.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    As has been said above, if you want the missions to be harder choose the elite difficulty and use weaker gear and boff abilities. Instead of using MK XII purples use MK VI whites. Instead of training all your boffs for maximum cool-downs don't give them minimum ranks in their boff abilities. Use a ship 1 or more Tiers lower, etc.

    That doesn't make challenge, that just breeds frustration in the same way as 1 shot torpedos.

    I did this a lot with my Reman character. There still was very little "challenge" in it.
  • ashkrik23ashkrik23 Member Posts: 10,809 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I played all the Elachi missions before the nerf on elite and they were the difficulty of a single player raid dungeon. Especially the ground portion of the last mission. So try playing that. The space may be nerfed but the ground portion is still long and a decent challenge.
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You want some challenge, use a shuttle type ship and run some stf's!!!
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  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    The problem is if STF mission becomes harder less people will play them. Just look at ground missions they are harder then space missions and much less people play the ground missions despite the fact ground missions reward more Omega Marks. Missions need to have a balanced difficulty for your average player who does public matches.

    If you play public games with random people you will have a variety of experiences. Their will be times they are easy. Other times they become hard because of crappy players messing things up.

    If someone wants more of a challenge do things yourself to make it harder on you. Don't have any duty officers on active duty. Use the normal tier 5 ship you get from leveling up instead of a C-Store or lock box ship. Use Mk X gear instead of MK XII gear. Those are a few examples of what you can do to have more of a challenge.
  • paxfederaticapaxfederatica Member Posts: 1,496 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    If someone wants more of a challenge do things yourself to make it harder on you. Don't have any duty officers on active duty. Use the normal tier 5 ship you get from leveling up instead of a C-Store or lock box ship. Use Mk X gear instead of MK XII gear. Those are a few examples of what you can do to have more of a challenge.

    Just don't do any of that in a PUG, or else expect to get regularly bashed as a DPS-weakling n00b by more hardcore grinders. :P
  • majesticmsfcmajesticmsfc Member Posts: 1,401 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Not all play a game for a challenge some just like to play to have some fun. That's the reason why there are different difficulty levels. Go play Elite instead of normal if you find yourself unchallenged.

    Though with the recent TRIBBLE up with the balance tables, it's really hard on normal difficulty with the one shot kills in Encounters and Defera.
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  • matixzonmatixzon Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    You know what I hate? All this people who are so good at the game that they think that just because things are easy for them everything is too easy and everybody else is a wussy crybaby, I for one can say that I'm not leet, I don't know every strategy or have the best equipment, or ace all the content, and in fact struggle with a lot of things, If you want for Cryptic to add harder options because you want challenge it's fine, but don't say that everything is too easy and those who say otherwise are wussies who like everything the easiest, laziest way, I personally find the difficulty on the game reasonable for MY stardards.
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  • oldkilldareoldkilldare Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    the only reason STO is enjoying a success now is because it embraced "the casual" (and ofc F2P), opened up the gear progression via the rep and fleet grinds anyone can do and has pretty much gave up on trying to satisfy demands of the PK seeking locusts that are "hardcore" MMO pvpers which always holds back sticking loads of interesting stuff on the PvE side because of their demands for 1 on 1 "balance".

    the game now, possibly almost by accident, is a fairly nice way to spend time with just enough now to keep people constantly busy and *drip, drip, drip* rewarded when they log in without c*ck blocks deliberately being put in their way.

    and there is just enough of that stuff that the sporadic delivery of actual new content actually has enough breathing room to be as sporadic as it is...which previously it didn't have because most of the players were locked out of rewarding "casual" progression when they hit 50.

    what happened before is people hit 50, most couldn't get decent groups for STFs or PvP or weren't really actually interested in them or PVP, had nothing else to do...AND SO THEY LEFT.

    now some might say they should have to do those things to get any *drip, drip, drip* sense of achievement but that's frankly bull****: if someone logs into WoW for example even if they aren't a "hardcore" raider or PvPer there are almost countless things they can still do which are rewarding and/or "fun".

    STOs problem was that it demanded you do its rough equivalents (because they at least had those in place) and if you didn't ? well you had nothing to do...AND SO THEY LEFT.

    any moves back toward the reintroduction of c*ck blocks and trying to satisfy the demands of the self styled "hardcore" as a core priority will hurt the game not help it.

    there plenty are other games if you want to be self styled "hardcore".

    most people in STO just want to fairly casually putter about in their ships and whether you might believe it or not it's pandering to, and expanding on, that desire that will continue to make the game a lasting success.

    F2P games are about getting people through the door and then giving them stuff to do that they enjoy to keep them there NOT pandering to the self styled "hardcore" minority or the misplaced belief that those people are somehow needed "to maintain the health of a game" because frankly that's a belief that has no real basis other than convention and it's a convention that stems from one historical root: the fact some of the WoW devs were (frankly obnoxious) ex-Everquest "hardcore" raiders and later "hardcore" PvPers themselves.

    for example there is no "hardcore" raiding or "hardcore" pvp in Maplestory and Maplestory is FAR bigger game than even WoW...but them Maplestory is F2P...see what i'm getting at ?...probably not i guess :\ you've probably never heard of Maplestory...

    let me put it this way: when it comes to a F2P game almost everything you thought you knew about MMOs is wrong.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I would like to see the STFs made more interesting which could easily be done by giving the AI some abilities to use and the 'inteligence' to use them well, that would serve to up the interest level, upping the lower damage threshold and lowering the upper (1 shot torps) while increasing the frequency of attacks would help raise the overall threat of the NPCs to players while not being too powerful to beat.

    Come to think of it that sounds strangely familiar... oh thats right, Hive space pre-nerf...
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I've mentioned the following in a few threads.

    Change...

    Normal
    Advanced
    Elite


    ...to:

    Casual (formerly Normal)
    Normal (formerly Advanced)
    Advanced (formerly Elite)
    Elite


    For things like STFs/etc, change Elite to Advanced and add Elite. So you'd have:

    Normal
    Advanced (formerly Elite)
    Elite


    There's a massive gear progression (powercreep) in the game without the normal progression of difficulty. No doubt, this has definitely worked for Cryptic when it comes to expanding their casual playerbase. More and more and more...and more players are able to purchase/grind gear to complete content in the game. Customerbase grows. More revenue. More neat stuff for STO. It's good...

    ...but, it's also creating issues for the less casual players (as well as a separate issue over in PvP). Some suggest going the minimalist route for the challenge. That's a bad suggestion as far as Cryptic would be concerned. There's no revenue in folks going minimalist. That's akin to telling folks to stop spending any money on STO. How does that help?

    On the other hand, adding in additional levels of difficulty...tada, the not so casual players are happy - Cryptic continues to make money - STO thrives...everybody's happy (more or less), no?
  • skhcskhc Member Posts: 355 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    while i agree that some missions are too easy.. they dont need to be made any harder..
    you cant expect everyone to have the best gear..


    if you find you want a challenge, put the game on elite, use white mk ix items from the npc stores and run the episodes or a good foundry mission.

    You don't need the best gear. Or even close to it.

    We all got through our Elite STFs just fine when they came out at first with Mk X & XI blue gear rather than Mk XII Advanced or Elite Fleet Weapons & either Fleet or Reputation equipment sets. The only real difference was you had to occasionally engage your brain because your DPS wasn't three times what's actually needed for the mission.

    That's another issue - power creep. The STFs themselves & their optionals are designed to be completed without the current top end gear in the game (because it didn't exist when the STFs were remodelled to their current format), and most of the group content since has been balanced to be of similar or lesser difficulty to the STFs. And the single player content is even easier than that.

    As for the rest of your post, is the fact that you can only suggest that people purposely gimp their ships to challenge themselves in most of the content not at least slightly suggestive of a problem with PvE difficulty in the game?

    "Do PvP" "Do foundry missions" or "Purposely fly a sub-optimal build" are not acceptable solutions to content that isn't challenging.

    And reading further into the thread, I'm not sure people really understand the difference between an interesting, appealing challenge, and obnoxiousness. I want to have to think, and use tactics, when I'm doing a mission, not just zerg into every enemy until they explode. Adding more enemies, or making the enemies harder to zerg (without giving me an alternate option) doesn't change that.

    To be perfectly honest, it's not even really about making the content harder per se for me, it's about making it less brainless. I'd like to see more complex objectives that require more co-ordination, enemies with a greater variety of abilities that will punish you for just attacking them mindlessly, a less-DPS centric meta and maybe even more than 2 space missions that require team-balance.
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