Seriously, they seem to be doing much more damage now.
Just a bit of a reference.
5 months or so ago, I had posted a thread asking to help me win a bet for help on beating my friend's tac in a fleet patrol escort with my engineer in an Excelsior.
After a long and hard fought battle to try and make the engineer do some damage, I had given up.
We ultimately just crunched numbers, and with me sitting 4k away broadsiding, with neither of us moving, it was clear I could do no damage to him. His shields would flicker a bit, but never take any real damage, and his hull regen was enough to compensate any bleed through (tested this again on tribble when leadership was nerfed, with the same result).
So yes, I had given up on the engineer and began again with a tac. Same ship same build.
For number crunching sake, we decided to run the same test, but begin with my engineer again for a benchmark.
Only this time, I completely decimated his shields. I mean they just melted away. I had brought her out of retirement just for this test so I had no Nukara rep and had a standard issue warp core.
After a fairly lengthy dual (15 minutes or so) I still couldn't kill him, but I did get him down to the single digits on his hull several times. If I were to now grind Nukara rep and get some better gear I think I could win easily.
The thing is, he has been steadily improving his ship. Warp core, the Nukara rep, going from Mk xi's to Mk xii's, etc.
So I ask, what has happened? I mean it was the same ship and build, no changes. I find it hard to believe that EPtW1's 10% damage increase made THAT much of a difference.
in the initial test (the just sit there and broadside, not an actual fight) I didn't use FAW. In fact, I think I had a BO2 slotted for running DBBs. I didn't use it though. Just basic numbers crunching. When we actually did fight, I switched out to FAW.
But to answer your question, no FAW wasn't a factor.
You might have the same build but you now have different/more traits. Your engi probably did pick the engi trait that gives him 10 power when using eptx. That lasts 15sec with 3 points in batteries. So with two eptx cycling you will always have a power boost.
The eptw buff affects your real dmg, not your base dmg I think. So it is a real 10% increase, thats actually quite a bit.
Also did you have traits like accurate 5 months ago? I think now every race can pick it, it was quite limited before.
Also there is your opponent. Maybe he respecced some rep passives, got placate instead of heal for example. Or he changed his shield. Maybe he had specific resists against your dmg type in the past? Maybe he generally sacrificed defense to get more offense?
What would of course help is if you had a parse from 5 months ago an a parse from your recent fight. Of course there might also have been a change in beams that I am unaware of.
Beams are currently benefitting from being overcapped in weapon power. Past 125, they continue to stack at 2% extra damage per point. Past 125, EPS consoles also have been found to affect power return to weapon power (which it doesn't do below 125).
As such, PvEers have been pushing beam builds to 20k+ dps, well past what cannon builds can touch. This is primarily why we are seeing more "meatgrinder" builds in PvP, as many have figured this out.
Well, most long time players remember when PvP was all beams, all FAW meat grinder. While it isn't overrunning PvP right now, there are a few premade groups who have already started doing it to great success.
Stack 5 ships with full beams, FAW, 2-3 EPS consoles, and overcap using EPtW, A2B, leech, batteries, etc... it is near impossible to deal with unless your team has 4 healers.
I had noticed that sitting at 120ish weapon power before EPtW1, my power hardly drained at all. We're talking mid to high 90's with 7 beams.
We were kinda burned out after the test and didn't get to testing my tac though so I can't give you a difference between the two.
As far as the traits though, I don't see that being a factor so much in the difference between the two tests, considering it was just a numbers test which involved park and broadside.
Unless of course you take into consideration the extra bonus from EPtX going into weapon power, thus pushing it over cap, as mentioned.
Tacs will still do more damage of course, but perhaps this overcap + engineer traits and maybe finding a way to put EPtW3 on my ship, and maybe, just maybe engineers can be somewhat viable?
I suppose it doesn't really matter to me anymore since my tac is now right at the same level my engineer was when I retired him, hehe. Would still be awesome though if engineers weren't such a joke anymore.
Slowly people start to wake their eyes up, beams were never buffed, other than faw was being fixed, beam overload is still bugged and doesn't benefit from your accuracy
There is cap in the bonus dmg beams get tho, and it's fully based on the drain, not on the power system values, ignore the up and down power movement since it has nothing to do with it, beams are simply draining from the maxium weapon power, meaning that firing 1 beam with OVER 9000!!! weapon power is not gonna do anything, its fully related to the draining of the beams.
Record dps numbers in PvE content I have heard of, are 28.8k with beams, full ****** tac bortasque beam boat and 25.6k with 5 DHC full ****** dps kumari build with 0 heals.
I'm sure these numbers will get higher once certain people jump to their scimitars... race between beams and dhc has began.
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
beam overload is still bugged and doesn't benefit from your accuracy
Do you have combat parsings you can post to show this sax?
We've tested this, repeatedly and extensively, and all of the parsings have come out with BO ACC working as expected.
That's not to say something isn't borked again, since it happens every couple of months - but if you have recent logs that you could show this is the case it would save me more time testing this...yet again.
Do you have combat parsings you can post to show this sax?
We've tested this, repeatedly and extensively, and all of the parsings have come out with BO ACC working as expected.
No, I dont have any proof of it, or never been concerned about it by myself, it's just one of the rumors and stuff people complain about, I guess it's like the fake issue that galaxy lance never hits anything.
This has nothing to do with this but guramba lance seems to miss all hits against gates on STFs, stationary big targets I know..
Torpedo spread having 100% hit chance.. I don't even know if acc overflow works with torp spread. I use accx3 Q torps.
The beam power overcapping..
I don't know what to believe if beam overload is actually working properly.
Nothing works properly and all these differences are making it balanced?
Say the word, it saves the world. CUUCUUMBEER!"-With slight partigen with it." Proud member or DPS-800"-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Well, most long time players remember when PvP was all beams, all FAW meat grinder. While it isn't overrunning PvP right now, there are a few premade groups who have already started doing it to great success.
Stack 5 ships with full beams, FAW, 2-3 EPS consoles, and overcap using EPtW, A2B, leech, batteries, etc... it is near impossible to deal with unless your team has 4 healers.
If cannons could overcap, there would be outrage.
wow this is grand. Other long time players remember the height of sci ship rules, or escorts online "got DHC or get out."
I m happy with my beams, although i decided to fly a beam boat again before any of the LoR stuff made it to holo.
Beams are currently benefitting from being overcapped in weapon power. Past 125, they continue to stack at 2% extra damage per point. Past 125, EPS consoles also have been found to affect power return to weapon power (which it doesn't do below 125).
As such, PvEers have been pushing beam builds to 20k+ dps, well past what cannon builds can touch. This is primarily why we are seeing more "meatgrinder" builds in PvP, as many have figured this out.
It isn't a FAW issue, it's a beam issue.
So I run a Fleet Excelsior Beam boat with 7 beams and a wide angle Torp. I have all Reps (even Nukera) at Tier 5. I can also respec if needed. I run max wep power with all the Crit consoles. I have skilled 6 levels in most of my skill tree, didnt go into the red so I can spread skills out more. I believe I have the overcharged warp core that adds to Wep power from Aux. But what do you reccomend too get Wep power above 125? I have some XII purple EPS consoles (3 I think) and I know there is some Rep passives that add to it also. I think I have my rep passives set up to boost shields not wep.
No, I dont have any proof of it, or never been concerned about it by myself, it's just one of the rumors and stuff people complain about, I guess it's like the fake issue that galaxy lance never hits anything.
Actually I heard a rumor that the Gal Lance is hitting things! :P
I'm NOT going to be testing it though, not with a 3 minute cooldown.
I can tell you that within the past 4 months, all versions of BO were working correctly in testing and arena logs back up the to hit rate %.
It's possible people are repeating the old rumor, its possible something is broken again and it's possible that the new Crippling Fire trait has people missing a bit more than normal (even worse if they weren't using ACCx3 to begin with).
Slowly people start to wake their eyes up, beams were never buffed, other than faw was being fixed, beam overload is still bugged and doesn't benefit from your accuracy
Its not a matter of me waking up to beams actually being powerful. What I am saying is nothing in the build or gear on that toon changed from 5 months ago to now, and it went from making my friend's shields flicker a bit, to completely devastating. The SAME target with the same build and the same (some improved from blues to purples).
No extra variables, just 4k away, park, and broadside for a few minutes, while he hits his heals.
Nothing changed except that he actually has to heal himself now.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I am just trying to find something to account for this.
If it truly is the weapon overcap thing, then that explains it I suppose. Its just hard to believe that it made THAT much of a difference.
Its not a matter of me waking up to beams actually being powerful. What I am saying is nothing in the build or gear on that toon changed from 5 months ago to now, and it went from making my friend's shields flicker a bit, to completely devastating. The SAME target with the same build and the same (some improved from blues to purples).
No extra variables, just 4k away, park, and broadside for a few minutes, while he hits his heals.
Nothing changed except that he actually has to heal himself now.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I am just trying to find something to account for this.
If it truly is the weapon overcap thing, then that explains it I suppose. Its just hard to believe that it made THAT much of a difference.
I can't answer exactly on what is happening here.
However there are 2 cases put forward:
1) That Beams are actually benefiting from 150 weapon power adjustment to damage.
This means if you have 150 vs. 125 you are seeing a +50% (+2% per point) damage boost. Or, in other words, it's like having attack pattern alpha running all of the time.
If this was the case it should be visible on the tooltip, but not necessarily.
2) Over-capping is cushioning the drain.
This is similar to the above, depending on how much your beams typically drain.
So if they are being cushioned by a 150 cap, then when they drop from drain they are higher than they would be if you only ran 125.
This is similar to the above in that the power difference between the two would result in a direct damage boost.
Honestly though, I'm just speculating here.
The only way to know for sure is testing.
As much as I'd love to do it myself, I won't really have the ability to do so until August.
Don't forget that EPtW now has it's energy weapon damage bonus for its full duration now as well. Five months ago that wasn't the case.
Yeah, I mentioned that, and that I found it hard to imagine that 10% would have that drastic of an effect. I'm not saying its not possible, but at first glance, it would seem odd.
beam boat builds are not getting 10k, or 20k dps, without several FOMMs placed on the target they are shooting. if a beam build does spike that much DPS, the escort next to him is getting more
beam arrays are only dangerous in a duel, were there is no cross healing and no running
beam boat builds are not getting 10k, or 20k dps, without several FOMMs placed on the target they are shooting. if a beam build does spike that much DPS, the escort next to him is getting more
beam arrays are only dangerous in a duel, were there is no cross healing and no running
I am already crying enough from the hour after hour being added to patch-a-couple-bugs day.
wow this is grand. Other long time players remember the height of sci ship rules
-tears up- yeah...
bad when science was feared! i miss those times, science got nerfed too hard too fast and is still suffering (doffs not included because they break things)
Comments
in the initial test (the just sit there and broadside, not an actual fight) I didn't use FAW. In fact, I think I had a BO2 slotted for running DBBs. I didn't use it though. Just basic numbers crunching. When we actually did fight, I switched out to FAW.
But to answer your question, no FAW wasn't a factor.
The eptw buff affects your real dmg, not your base dmg I think. So it is a real 10% increase, thats actually quite a bit.
Also did you have traits like accurate 5 months ago? I think now every race can pick it, it was quite limited before.
Also there is your opponent. Maybe he respecced some rep passives, got placate instead of heal for example. Or he changed his shield. Maybe he had specific resists against your dmg type in the past? Maybe he generally sacrificed defense to get more offense?
What would of course help is if you had a parse from 5 months ago an a parse from your recent fight. Of course there might also have been a change in beams that I am unaware of.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
As such, PvEers have been pushing beam builds to 20k+ dps, well past what cannon builds can touch. This is primarily why we are seeing more "meatgrinder" builds in PvP, as many have figured this out.
It isn't a FAW issue, it's a beam issue.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Stack 5 ships with full beams, FAW, 2-3 EPS consoles, and overcap using EPtW, A2B, leech, batteries, etc... it is near impossible to deal with unless your team has 4 healers.
If cannons could overcap, there would be outrage.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
I had noticed that sitting at 120ish weapon power before EPtW1, my power hardly drained at all. We're talking mid to high 90's with 7 beams.
We were kinda burned out after the test and didn't get to testing my tac though so I can't give you a difference between the two.
As far as the traits though, I don't see that being a factor so much in the difference between the two tests, considering it was just a numbers test which involved park and broadside.
Unless of course you take into consideration the extra bonus from EPtX going into weapon power, thus pushing it over cap, as mentioned.
Tacs will still do more damage of course, but perhaps this overcap + engineer traits and maybe finding a way to put EPtW3 on my ship, and maybe, just maybe engineers can be somewhat viable?
I suppose it doesn't really matter to me anymore since my tac is now right at the same level my engineer was when I retired him, hehe. Would still be awesome though if engineers weren't such a joke anymore.
There is cap in the bonus dmg beams get tho, and it's fully based on the drain, not on the power system values, ignore the up and down power movement since it has nothing to do with it, beams are simply draining from the maxium weapon power, meaning that firing 1 beam with OVER 9000!!! weapon power is not gonna do anything, its fully related to the draining of the beams.
Record dps numbers in PvE content I have heard of, are 28.8k with beams, full ****** tac bortasque beam boat and 25.6k with 5 DHC full ****** dps kumari build with 0 heals.
I'm sure these numbers will get higher once certain people jump to their scimitars... race between beams and dhc has began.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
You're confused as to how one weapon type ignoring game mechanics is an issue?
I'm sure you'll be here ranting when there is some bug benefiting cannons. :rolleyes:
Do you have combat parsings you can post to show this sax?
We've tested this, repeatedly and extensively, and all of the parsings have come out with BO ACC working as expected.
That's not to say something isn't borked again, since it happens every couple of months - but if you have recent logs that you could show this is the case it would save me more time testing this...yet again.
No, I dont have any proof of it, or never been concerned about it by myself, it's just one of the rumors and stuff people complain about, I guess it's like the fake issue that galaxy lance never hits anything.
This has nothing to do with this but guramba lance seems to miss all hits against gates on STFs, stationary big targets I know..
Torpedo spread having 100% hit chance.. I don't even know if acc overflow works with torp spread. I use accx3 Q torps.
The beam power overcapping..
I don't know what to believe if beam overload is actually working properly.
Nothing works properly and all these differences are making it balanced?
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
wow this is grand. Other long time players remember the height of sci ship rules, or escorts online "got DHC or get out."
I m happy with my beams, although i decided to fly a beam boat again before any of the LoR stuff made it to holo.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
So I run a Fleet Excelsior Beam boat with 7 beams and a wide angle Torp. I have all Reps (even Nukera) at Tier 5. I can also respec if needed. I run max wep power with all the Crit consoles. I have skilled 6 levels in most of my skill tree, didnt go into the red so I can spread skills out more. I believe I have the overcharged warp core that adds to Wep power from Aux. But what do you reccomend too get Wep power above 125? I have some XII purple EPS consoles (3 I think) and I know there is some Rep passives that add to it also. I think I have my rep passives set up to boost shields not wep.
Actually I heard a rumor that the Gal Lance is hitting things! :P
I'm NOT going to be testing it though, not with a 3 minute cooldown.
I can tell you that within the past 4 months, all versions of BO were working correctly in testing and arena logs back up the to hit rate %.
It's possible people are repeating the old rumor, its possible something is broken again and it's possible that the new Crippling Fire trait has people missing a bit more than normal (even worse if they weren't using ACCx3 to begin with).
Balance by omnishambles?
Its not a matter of me waking up to beams actually being powerful. What I am saying is nothing in the build or gear on that toon changed from 5 months ago to now, and it went from making my friend's shields flicker a bit, to completely devastating. The SAME target with the same build and the same (some improved from blues to purples).
No extra variables, just 4k away, park, and broadside for a few minutes, while he hits his heals.
Nothing changed except that he actually has to heal himself now.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I am just trying to find something to account for this.
If it truly is the weapon overcap thing, then that explains it I suppose. Its just hard to believe that it made THAT much of a difference.
I can't answer exactly on what is happening here.
However there are 2 cases put forward:
1) That Beams are actually benefiting from 150 weapon power adjustment to damage.
This means if you have 150 vs. 125 you are seeing a +50% (+2% per point) damage boost. Or, in other words, it's like having attack pattern alpha running all of the time.
If this was the case it should be visible on the tooltip, but not necessarily.
2) Over-capping is cushioning the drain.
This is similar to the above, depending on how much your beams typically drain.
So if they are being cushioned by a 150 cap, then when they drop from drain they are higher than they would be if you only ran 125.
This is similar to the above in that the power difference between the two would result in a direct damage boost.
Honestly though, I'm just speculating here.
The only way to know for sure is testing.
As much as I'd love to do it myself, I won't really have the ability to do so until August.
Maybe someone else will.
Thanks for the info guys. Ill report if I find anything significant.
Yeah, I mentioned that, and that I found it hard to imagine that 10% would have that drastic of an effect. I'm not saying its not possible, but at first glance, it would seem odd.
True.
However, I'm not convinced that +10% flat damage bonus is enough to cover the case presented by the OP.
beam arrays are only dangerous in a duel, were there is no cross healing and no running
I am already crying enough from the hour after hour being added to patch-a-couple-bugs day.
Don't make me cry bitter tears over my cruisers.
-tears up- yeah...
bad when science was feared! i miss those times, science got nerfed too hard too fast and is still suffering (doffs not included because they break things)
Do you even Science Bro?