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Drunk and Virus can you look into these claims

newromulan1newromulan1 Member Posts: 2,229
edited June 2013 in PvP Gameplay
You are 2 that I trust with numbers more than most:

Some people are claiming the Romulan warbirds are more squishy than they should be - and it might be a coding problem with resists.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=761211
Post edited by newromulan1 on

Comments

  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    yep, ive noticed this too. but thats because my other character have 3 years of development, rep and gear over my brand new half naked romulan :o

    the op valdor console is the only thing that lets it be competitive currently. so ive been pretty much just rep grinding lately, doing nearly nothing but mark grinding. so i can get good sets and passives and stuff. once my roms on equal footing with my other characters, i'll be able to tell if theres a problem.

    potentially being down 40 shield power could be a thing, but it takes 125 shield power to grant just 35% resistance. the hull armor thing is wired though.

    all the universal consoles are quite helpful for liveing, and quantum absorption is an RSP level life saver.
  • newromulan1newromulan1 Member Posts: 2,229
    edited June 2013
    yep, ive noticed this too. but thats because my other character have 3 years of development, rep and gear over my brand new half naked romulan :o

    the op valdor console is the only thing that lets it be competitive currently. so ive been pretty much just rep grinding lately, doing nearly nothing but mark grinding. so i can get good sets and passives and stuff. once my roms on equal footing with my other characters, i'll be able to tell if theres a problem.

    thanks - keep us updated.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Hrmmm, I honestly don't play...er...anymore. If not for the Summer Event and the Risian Corvette, well - yeah - I wouldn't be here. ~5 minutes a toon, heh...I think I can spare less than an hour to do that for all my guys should I return down the road.

    Still, I looked at it and posted the following two replies in the thread:
    The following is just "Hull" info for my guys. I've included Defense (because Warbirds do not get the Escort's +10% Bonus Defense, so some folks are likely getting hit more than they may be used to getting hit). I included individual ability effects on the resistances - I did not do the various combined permutations.

    The skills listed are: Starship Threat Control (STC), Starship Structural Integrity (SSI), Starship Hull Plating (SHP), Starship Armor Reinforcements (SAR).

    I chose not to show the numbers for abilities that increase resistances since Aux can play a role in that. Besides, the complaint appeared to be more of a core issue, no?

    So let's see what I've got, eh?

    Chel Grett w/ Eng
    STC 54, SSI 125, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 49,665
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 85.0%


    JHEC w/ Eng
    STC 54, SSI 117, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 50,740
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 75.0%


    Patrol Escort w/ Tac
    STC 54. SSI 99, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 40,301
    Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 80.0%


    Mirror Vo'Quv w/ Tac
    STC 54, SSI 117, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 56,829
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 62.8%


    MU Deep Space w/ Sci
    STC 54, SSI 99, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 35,101
    Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 67.9%


    Hegh'ta w/ Sci
    STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 0, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 31,837
    Kinetic: 25.6% (Jem Shields Mk XI)
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 80.0%


    Okay, so how about the Romulan, eh? He's actually a Reman! But yeah, I've only got one on Holo. So what are his numbers in the three T5 ships he has? Let's look...

    Reman Sci

    Fleet T'varo
    STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 40,884
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 82.5%

    T'varo Retrofit
    STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 37,167
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 82.5%

    Ha'feh
    STC 54, SSI 108, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut
    Hull: 42,673
    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%
    Defense: 84.3%


    So for these ships, pretty much everybody is getting the same, eh?

    STC 54, SHP 84, SAR 54, 1x Rare Mk XI Neut and they've got 24.6% and 27.0% going for them. The folks with SAR 0 are sporting Jem Shields taking them to 25.6% (it goes higher on a toon with SAR 54 as expected).

    While one can't directly compare the Hegh'ta to the T'varo Retro or Fleet T'varo (one would be better served doing so with the B'rel Retro and Fleet B'rel), one can still do the math to see that the T'varo Retro and Fleet T'varo would actually come out ahead of the B'rel boats. The easier comparison is the Ha'feh and Patrol Escort, where the Ha'feh is the better boat.

    But then it gets into that Base40 vs. Base50 power thing, and well - not only does it not work out to -10 power per subsystem because of skills/traits, when you consider how shield resistances work...that number would be smaller than one might assume because of the way the math works. Course, you can get into Warp vs. Singularity Cores, etc, etc, etc...but that's still only going to get into minute differences which will still generally leave the Warbird as the superior ship to its Fed/KDF counterparts. Need to break out lockbox ships if you really want to have that dance...

    As for Post #3 in this thread, well...let's look at the math there, eh?

    So that's SHP 89 and SAR 89.

    SHP 89 ~= +11.3 Energy
    SAR 80 ~= +11.3 Kinetic

    Rare Mk XI Neut +17.5 Energy/Kinetic DRM
    Rare Mk XI Mono +35 Kinetic DRM

    So the numbers expected would be...
    Kinetic: 43.5%
    Energy: 31.2%

    Not taking into account accolades, etc. Course, those aren't the numbers reported in Post #3.

    Then again, it just happened that one of the ships I listed above was a Ha'feh, eh?

    Kinetic: 24.6%
    Energy: 27.0%

    Do they match up with how the math works?

    STC 54 ~= +4.9 (Both)
    SHP 84 ~= +10.7 (Energy)
    SAR 54 ~= +7.2 (Kinetic)
    Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)

    Kinetic: 22.7%
    Energy: 24.6%

    So add in those 2% accolades, one can see the 24.7% and 26.6% being pretty close to the 24.6% and 27.0% numbers being reported...

    ...frankly, I'd suggest the poster from Post #3 take another look, eh?

    And I even went through to recreate as close as I could to that build with this (obviously, skills are different)...
    Heck, I've got the Ha'feh...let's slot 2x Rare Neut Mk XI and the Rare Mono Mk XI to see what numbers show, eh?

    Keep in mind the differences in skills:
    STC 54, SHP 84, SAR 54
    vs.
    STC 0, SHP 89, SAR 89

    Ha'feh
    Kinetic: 44.6%
    Energy: 34.8%

    Does the math work out vs. the display?

    STC 54 ~= +4.9 (Both)
    SHP 84 ~= +10.7 (Energy)
    SAR 54 ~= +7.2 (Kinetic)
    Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)
    Rare Mk XI Neut = +17.5 (Both)
    Rare Mk XI Mono = +35.0 (Kinetic)

    Kinetic: 43.6%
    Energy: 33.1%

    So yeah, again...add in accolades and it pretty much works out.

    Not sure what the poster in Post #3 was looking at... /shrug

    But er, hrmm yeah - threads like that is one of the reasons that I decided not to play STO anymore... meh, oh well.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Wanted to add that heretic posted the following...
    This thread kinda got lost in the mayhem involving the scimitar, but I never got a chance to come back and edit what I said. After last Thursday's update/patch, the resistances were fixed. My Ha'feh and Fleet Defiant now have identical hull resistances with identical equipment.

    So any seemingness of squishiness is now due to lower shield power. That's it.

    So it looks like that particular issue was addressed. I did go ahead and add the following in reply to that, mind you...
    Hey, can definitely see that - all sorts of flaky stuff has been happening like that. I've had to go back and edit things in posts because a few days later...it's just not the way it was anymore. Course, usually there's no patch notes that anything changed, meh.

    It can kind of be entertaining at times, tbh. My fav was regarding EPtW. It was working a certain way on Holo. Even with changes, it was still working a certain way on Tribble. Then it went from Tribble to Holo...I was operating under the impression that it was working like it was on Holo/Tribble - but nope...it had changed, lol. Can be entertaining, frustrating, entertaining, frustrating - that little dance, oh well.

    With regard to the shield power, much of that is going to depend on skill builds and gearing. During the LoR beta there was a lot of discussion about it, and a bunch of different folks varied on some basic things in their skill builds. For the most part, out of the 300k Space...my guys only vary by about 70-80k. Everything else is pretty standardized. Part of that includes SP in Potential, Efficiency, Performance. Another part of that is in taking Efficient/Theorist traits. I've got a guy that needs a desperate respec from something that I dorked around with, but they're pretty much all the same.

    By the time you add in EPtS, TSS, ExS, various shields with resists...the difference in shields would be that much less.

    A Fed/KDF can hit 130 while the Rom can only hit 125. That's 36.4% vs. 35%...1.4% better. But remember, there's 10% bleed. So the actual numbers would be:

    130...42.8%
    125...41.5%

    1.3% difference...

    Let's add EPtS1 (24%) into that, eh?

    130...56.5%
    125...55.5%

    1.0% difference...

    The more you add (TSS, ExS, shield with resists, etc) - the smaller that difference will be.

    Yes, for somebody with no skills/traits/gear set for power, they're going to be running with 160 base power instead of 200 base power. That will be noticeable. Like I mentioned earlier, I kind of take it for granted...cause all of my guys (except the one) have Efficiency, Potential, Performance at certain levels - as well as the Efficient/Theorist traits.

    One has to look at how they're actually running their power, rather than just looking at the balanced setting to view that difference too, imho. I have 5 less total power on my Reman at the balanced setting than I do with what he actually runs. Yep, he loses out on power gained from Efficiency.

    Course, when they made the change to allow Fed/KDF to run at x/15 instead of x/25...it definitely made sure the gap remained. Before that, the difference was almost neglible. Now, you may see that 5-8 or so difference in power levels here or there. Depending on gearing, abilities, skill build - it could be more or less.

    My Reman's not fully geared, and runs ~30 less total power compared to my average guy. I say average guy, because the two Eng I listed ooze power...~150-200+ power compared to the Reman Sci. The Manifold Efficiency trait, MACO shields on the Chel Grett, Leech on JHEC, DCE'd EPtW/EPtS on the Chel Grett, AtB'd EPtW/EPtS on the JHEC...yeah, they ooze power compared to my other guys.

    So depending on build, it's going to vary how much of a hit a person is taking. Since I'm flying a Torp'varo that's generally cloaked, even when he's decloaked, it's just not noticeable...it's definitely going to depend on what the person is flying.

    And yeah, none of this means that there might not be something off with a particular ship. Folks need to post when they see something off - details on the ship, skill build, gear, etc, etc, etc...that's the only way the guys at Cryptic can get in there and address anything...

    If folks feel like something is off, they should try to gather the info they can and provide that to Cryptic so they can take a look at it. Get other folks to try to recreate it, and that's the only way to try to get things fixed.

    I mean, hey - they admitted that the Mogai was getting a better benefit from skills than it was supposed to be, so we know the potential exists there for such things. Folks need to keep vigilant on things - have some patience...and STO can be a better game.
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