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Ground STF

lucianazetalucianazeta Member Posts: 741 Arc User
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  • hyplhypl Member Posts: 3,719 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    People just don't do ground STFs, because ground requires the use of your brain for communication and coordination, which people in pugs are not capable of doing.

    If anything would be done, Cryptic will probably just make them even easier and turn them into simple shoot fests like space STFs.
  • lucianazetalucianazeta Member Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I would hope not, I quite enjoy doing them myself, even though sometimes it takes far longer then it should, with people ignoring any and all advice.

    People need reasons to play them again, like specific items needed for ground XII set projects that can only be gotten by ground STF, similar in function like how the salvage used to be. >.>
  • packer3434packer3434 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    As hypl said ground stfs require a little bit more than the space ones so the general population tends to avoid them.

    It's often not liked when people say this but you're probably better off finding a fleet or group of friends that are willing and able to run these with you, personally I was lucky enough to find this as I prefer the grounds over the space stfs.

    I really hope they are not changed to make them 'simpler'.
    Well I can't forget a face but I won't remember y'all.
    Bleed Green and Gold
  • matrix0matrix0 Member Posts: 261 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Stop asking to mess up thing. Ground STFs r fine as they are. Just because we have lot of noobs in pug nowadays and ask for lower the standard and ruin the challenge for every1 else... it's a bad idea.
  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited June 2013
    i think they should increase ground stf dilithium reward.. maybe even double it.

    since the rep system, nobody needs to run ground anymore.. once you hit t5, there is little needs for marks.
    ground takes 3x longer to complete then space.. they are also more likely to fail.. meaning 0 rewards.
    [12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
    [12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
  • lucianazetalucianazeta Member Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    matrix0 wrote: »
    Stop asking to mess up thing. Ground STFs r fine as they are. Just because we have lot of noobs in pug nowadays and ask for lower the standard and ruin the challenge for every1 else... it's a bad idea.

    No one is asking for that.

    Guess I'll stick to getting a ground STF from EliteSTF or PublicEliteSTF once in a while.

    Personally I just think people shouldn't be able to get the Mk XII ground set without doing ground elite STFs, even if only to give people actual reason to run them.
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I don't do ground because of the enormous time stamp on them. I don't do elites either imo if it doesn't say elite on it it shouldn't feel like a heroic from a 1999 mmo just starting out.

    It's ridiculous the rewards for them too. If you did anything like defense of the starbase or no win scenario you get marks all along the sets of the events, in STF ground borg missions you get it in one big chunk at the end and to me it doesn't compare to what you get in space.

    Since it takes three times longer even on the regular ones it should reward three times as much and there should be those drops from the STFs that you get on Defera to make the better devices so at least they'd be useful, why is it those ground borg don't drop what you need to help fight those ground borg?
  • mav75mav75 Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I run ground STFs, but not with PUGs.

    You can run 3 ground STFs (IGE, CGE and KAGE) and 3 space STFs (ISE, CSE and KASE) in an hour and when you finish the tour the first one will be off it's CD.

    That's 5,760 Dilithium + Omks and BNPs. On top of it... it's a blast! :D
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I would hope not, I quite enjoy doing them myself, even though sometimes it takes far longer then it should, with people ignoring any and all advice.

    People need reasons to play them again, like specific items needed for ground XII set projects that can only be gotten by ground STF, similar in function like how the salvage used to be. >.>

    That's a reason to avoid them not a reason to play them. If you punish people, or take away their stuff they will complain and avoid the task. Instead increase the existing rewards.

    Also, I think it'd be nice if the end bosses didn't reset, so that even if people bailed out, those who stayed could eventually win via attrition. Removing the "oh this took too long and two people gave up, the three of us left can't win by ourselves" scenario would go a long way to getting people to at least try.

    There's been many times in Space STFs that I've won with only one or two helpers after others gave up and bailed, but the same just never happens on the ground (except for the two-sniper trick with Armek) because the bosses reset health to full over and over and over and over.
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The missions are harder and require more Teamwork and rewards from drops have little EC value compared to space stuff. In 1 space run you can get more EC from selling trash then from multiple runs from ground stuff.

    If they made ground missions easier and or increased the EC value of ground stuff it would increase the amount of people that play them.

    I like playing ground just hate how low it takes to get them going compared to space.
  • makburemakbure Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It's not the ground stf content, it's ground combat mechanics in general. They are sluggish in response, not thought out very well (it's all wack-a-mole design), overall it just doesn't flow like space combat does. Ground combat.....sucks.
    -Makbure
  • notapwefannotapwefan Member Posts: 1,138 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Ground, specially IGE and CGE, takes time..probably twice the time of CSE if you are "lucky" enough.
    KAGE seems more popular as it is the most quickest among all STFs G


    ...and everyone wants to earn Omega points quickly.
    Grinding for MkIV epic gear?
    Ain't Nobody Got Time for That


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    makbure wrote: »
    It's not the ground stf content, it's ground combat mechanics in general. They are sluggish in response, not thought out very well (it's all wack-a-mole design), overall it just doesn't flow like space combat does. Ground combat.....sucks.

    Right now space is buggy with powers like tactical team or transfer shield strength randomly affecting stuff like aceton assimilators or destructible torpedoes that you fire. Even with these annoying bugs effecting space stuff space is still more popular by a large margin.

    I don't think anything short of making ground more profitable compared to space and or make ground much easier will ever get ground to be played more.
  • kingdave1220kingdave1220 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    makbure wrote: »
    It's not the ground stf content, it's ground combat mechanics in general. They are sluggish in response, not thought out very well (it's all wack-a-mole design), overall it just doesn't flow like space combat does. Ground combat.....sucks.

    This exactly. Ground just stinks compared to space.
  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Support ground changes in my big TRIBBLE thread!: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=765021
    Ground Combat

    -More ground STF's
    -Cover system
    -Bug fixes in existing ground combat
    -Better rewards
    -More gear slots of some type. (Though I do NOT want to see "boots of the paladin"...)
    -Iterate on combat so it feels smoother

    ...

    -Increase the value of all ground dropped items to match space dropped items. Shields and armor should equal space shields, deflector, engine values.

    sig

    http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5451/om71.jpg

    It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
  • makburemakbure Member Posts: 422 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Right now space is buggy with powers like tactical team or transfer shield strength randomly affecting stuff like aceton assimilators or destructible torpedoes that you fire. Even with these annoying bugs effecting space stuff space is still more popular by a large margin.

    I don't think anything short of making ground more profitable compared to space and or make ground much easier will ever get ground to be played more.

    Getting more loot out of ground is just a small part of fixing ground combat, the abilities need to all be reassessed. They need to consider:

    - on/off abilities
    - offensive buff consumed on next successful attack
    - merging abilities to reduce bar clutter
    - passives that activate with conditions (this one for real)
    -Makbure
  • sortofsortof Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I liked ground STFs, as they did provide a challange. They were quite hard on elite, with tough, adapting enemies, the threat of assimilation, being one shot by elite tacticals.

    The teamwork requirement was also high, and while KAGE was doable with a PUG, in CGE and especially IGE, you were doomed if you did not know the ropes.

    And yet, these runs were fun as they required focus, knowledge of your game, and they did provide unique and valuable rewards in form of the chance of a very rare drop.

    Since the reputation system (actually my comeback to the game with LoR) I have not run single ground STF. Not one. I might just do that for the sake of nostalgia, but as it has been said, I have no reason to do so, except the fun. Many have complained about the huge grind it took to get MKXII sets having the old system. Yet when you did get that rare drop, you felt that all your hard work has been rewarded.

    So I understand why Crytpic was reluctant changing it. Yet they did eventually. There was once a hint that there alwyas will be something to "grind" for. ( I think Gozer made such a statement) So while I find the reputation system great, and democratic, there still should be a reward only for the most hardcore ground STF-ers. If not else some fancy accolade, or minor stat boost.

    As it is there is still a chance for MKXII purple drops, but these are, to my knowledge inferior to fleet or reputation items.

    I'd do three things: ground specific accolades; a very low, but existing chance for reputation item drops (from end boss), and increased dilithium reward.
    This would make ground STFs desireable for the players able doing them.
    Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
  • superherofansuperherofan Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Khitomer ground is fun, but I hate the boss encounters for the other two. I wish they would undo the stupid force field bubble for the Cure, and I would play that one again. The optional for Infected is the hardest, and I hate jumping/resetting for Rebecca. If they would double the Omega Marks, it might get more people to join, but if you're there just for the grind, they take too long, you don't get a lot of EC, and there is more chance for failure.
  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited June 2013
    Khitomer ground is fun, but I hate the boss encounters for the other two. I wish they would undo the stupid force field bubble for the Cure, and I would play that one again. The optional for Infected is the hardest, and I hate jumping/resetting for Rebecca. If they would double the Omega Marks, it might get more people to join, but if you're there just for the grind, they take too long, you don't get a lot of EC, and there is more chance for failure.

    not double omega marks, double the dilithium reward.

    omega marks are easy to get.. and once you get to t5 you dont need anymore.
    [12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
    [12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    not double omega marks, double the dilithium reward.

    omega marks are easy to get.. and once you get to t5 you dont need anymore.

    Marks can be turned in for Dilithium so more marks = more Dilithium
  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited June 2013
    yeah but not as much as straight double dilithium?

    maybe double both then.
    [12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
    [12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    yeah but not as much as straight double dilithium?

    maybe double both then.

    No not as much as double Dilithium but I don't see them ever increasing rewards like that unless they made the missions more difficult something of which already makes less people want to play them.
  • edited June 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • lucianazetalucianazeta Member Posts: 741 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    That's a reason to avoid them not a reason to play them. If you punish people, or take away their stuff they will complain and avoid the task. Instead increase the existing rewards.

    Also, I think it'd be nice if the end bosses didn't reset, so that even if people bailed out, those who stayed could eventually win via attrition. Removing the "oh this took too long and two people gave up, the three of us left can't win by ourselves" scenario would go a long way to getting people to at least try.

    There's been many times in Space STFs that I've won with only one or two helpers after others gave up and bailed, but the same just never happens on the ground (except for the two-sniper trick with Armek) because the bosses reset health to full over and over and over and over.

    Those drops were originally made to be obtained through ground STF, simply going ''well, they should be made easier to the point where even a brainless idiot can't fail'' isn't the solution.

    Bosses like Manus and Armek are fun to do if people would just bother to listen to those that know how to get it done, or god forbid, they do some research on the STO Wiki.

    Both of them are a challenge, as they should be.
    sortof wrote: »
    I liked ground STFs, as they did provide a challange. They were quite hard on elite, with tough, adapting enemies, the threat of assimilation, being one shot by elite tacticals.

    The teamwork requirement was also high, and while KAGE was doable with a PUG, in CGE and especially IGE, you were doomed if you did not know the ropes.

    And yet, these runs were fun as they required focus, knowledge of your game, and they did provide unique and valuable rewards in form of the chance of a very rare drop.

    Since the reputation system (actually my comeback to the game with LoR) I have not run single ground STF. Not one. I might just do that for the sake of nostalgia, but as it has been said, I have no reason to do so, except the fun. Many have complained about the huge grind it took to get MKXII sets having the old system. Yet when you did get that rare drop, you felt that all your hard work has been rewarded.

    So I understand why Crytpic was reluctant changing it. Yet they did eventually. There was once a hint that there alwyas will be something to "grind" for. ( I think Gozer made such a statement) So while I find the reputation system great, and democratic, there still should be a reward only for the most hardcore ground STF-ers. If not else some fancy accolade, or minor stat boost.

    As it is there is still a chance for MKXII purple drops, but these are, to my knowledge inferior to fleet or reputation items.

    I'd do three things: ground specific accolades; a very low, but existing chance for reputation item drops (from end boss), and increased dilithium reward.
    This would make ground STFs desireable for the players able doing them.

    This is exactly my point, before the reputation system, people had reason to run the ground STF's, now no one does, because all that they used to offer can be gotten through space STF as well now, so obviously people get it through space STF.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The lack of map specific rewards removing the incentive to play certain maps was pointed out the second people read about the details of season 7.
    Dsthal was even asked about it openly in a podcast.

    The reply was the blog be happy you get easy access to the ground sets (those who don't play ground could now buy it). "60 % saved time!!!111one"

    And here we are 8 months later the ground sets and accolades remain bugged and blocked out of the game entirely for some people because of season 7.

    Naturally the idea was to time gate items and so the 60% saved time only applies to some people.

    Me, I never spent more than 2-3 weeks getting the gear on any character I made and back then I'd make new characters right after.
    Since the reputation system takes 5 weeks in my experience and the way I play, it is just in the way.

    Now I have to re-re-re-re-unlock gear that's not even working, I stopped making alts and I stopped playing ground.

    I joked a lot about the 60 % saved time the first few months, the irony of me, one playing a lot of ground, always in pugs, having my sets taken in an update I didn't ask for - wasting 6000 % of my time is sort of funny.

    My question about the blocked ground sets, at which point have I lost my "60 % saved timed!!!11on" ?

    Not that I am oppose people being allowed to buy the ground sets or having access to them in the first place.

    Just in the old days if someone was geared you knew he at least saw the maps before.
    And today those armors have just lost their significance. That was actually part of the incentive to go after the sets too since they used to have some prestige around them.

    So I personally feel the reputation is a waste of game time and in addition it killed ground for a lot of people and the only reason you had people voting it up was to buy the sets that no longer carry anything special with them in the first place.

    Any other number of routes could have been taken to sell the ground sets without killing STFs.

    Of course bugging out the optional costumes and accolades along with it was a self-serving ironic statement you can only laugh at.

    Another problem ground gameplay has is the 100 % knock down on rmb attacks.
    If you will notice most of your guns have say 2.5 or 5.0 chance of something.
    Well, swords any level any color will knock down close to all NPCs everytime you swing it.

    That means you can walk up to something that might have been a threat and keep it permanently grounded (pun, tripple meaning), including heavy drones and tactical drones on eSTF.

    Thing of it like this, you fly into infected space and every last single time you hit rmb you disable a sphere or a cube for 3 seconds.
    It has no CD and you can even do it on multiple targets within range at the same time.

    Doing your job that sphere would never fire a single shot and the item you are using is MK II white... makes sense? And the whole team can do it. Sounds balanced right


    So, removing drops, bugging out the optional accolades and overlooking the sword put a huge dent in ground.
  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited June 2013
    not that they are going to, but i kinda wish they put back the set pieces as drops..

    that way if you didnt want to grind rep and pay a hella a lot of dil for them, you could still get them.


    but they are greedy, and greed is what made the rep system.. before you could get the set pieces pretty easily.

    but now you have to get to t5 rep, pay a ton of marks you had to grind, and pay a ton of dilithium you had to grind.. not to mention its all time gated.. so its purposely going to take months if you dont play every day.. and do it on every char you have.. separately.
    [12:35] Vessel Two of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 225232 (271723) Plasma Damage to you with Plasma Lance.
    [12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
  • vesterengvestereng Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    People who got permission to buy ground sets overlook the real price:

    Minus having to pay 5 weeks worth of playing, you lose salvage drops that now costs 30,000 a piece plus the marks you.

    So basically you went from + 30 k for every free drop to minus 30 that's 60 k dil per piece.

    So if you have 7 weapon slots and 3 set pieces that's 10 x 60,000 dil or over half a million dil for something that used to be free WHILE you were earning.

    THAT's the real price for your "free ground sets" :D

    And we lost all the STF weapons in themselves - they are just gone entirely from the game.

    In old days you could easily refit your entire ship in a week trying out other weapon types.
    Obviously the play there was to validate fleet farming.

    I just laugh at it and buy exchange stuff instead. I can't promise I won't be in the mood for polaron tomorrow night.

    The problems it presents for alting are harder to work around and of course the blocked season 7 accolades impossible
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    That's a reason to avoid them not a reason to play them. If you punish people, or take away their stuff they will complain and avoid the task. Instead increase the existing rewards.

    Also, I think it'd be nice if the end bosses didn't reset, so that even if people bailed out, those who stayed could eventually win via attrition. Removing the "oh this took too long and two people gave up, the three of us left can't win by ourselves" scenario would go a long way to getting people to at least try.

    There's been many times in Space STFs that I've won with only one or two helpers after others gave up and bailed, but the same just never happens on the ground (except for the two-sniper trick with Armek) because the bosses reset health to full over and over and over and over.

    You can solo ground bosses as it is. Most people just never learn ground.

    Our fleet regularly runs elite ground STFs in the queues with 1 or 2 PuGs. They are not longer than space, they take the same 10 - 15 minutes.
  • buccaneerdtbbuccaneerdtb Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Bosses like Manus and Armek are fun to do if people would just bother to listen to those that know how to get it done, or god forbid, they do some research on the STO Wiki.
    ...
    Both of them are a challenge, as they should be.

    A challenge??? With the power creep these STFs are way too easy now. I solo Armek with my Tac captain on Elite without melee while the rest of the team sits outside the shield sipping tea. Khitomer Accord boss room is finished in 10 - 20 seconds and Infected's 3 consoles can be done with 2 people that know what they are doing.
    As far as STO Wiki, it is okay, but it gets tiring being told what we supposedly can't do by 'wiki experts'...'You can't kill all the borg in Khitomer Accord, we don't have time', 'Why are you lowering the shield in the comand room so early? one man can't ... BOOM!'

    Please do not dummy down ground to be as easy as space in this game. I enjoy both, but ground is more fun because it has more strategy. A little tweaking is fine.

    If you need ground optional Accolades just hit us up for an invite.
  • lykumlykum Member Posts: 382
    edited June 2013
    if we have to shoot it out here, there's a problem that should be addressed. I think the chief complaint is having to physically active-ate 1 of your dozen different powers, and the fact there is no 'manual' aim. which kind of robs you of what a game is suppose to do, and that is to quicken your reflexes. you can't do that with STO because the screen is filled with all sorts of stuff going on so quickly you can't keep up. let alone read what powers your opponent is using, the power icons are SO SMALL!
    Lyndon Brewer: 20% chance to capture enemy ship for 60 seconds on successful use of boarding party.

    cause sometimes its party time!
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