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Sci/Tac/Eng Team: Is it time?

magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
edited July 2013 in PvP Gameplay
One part of me doesn't want to make it easier to tank.

Another part of me knows just how mandatory tac team is and how much garbage modern day stuff can throw at you that the team abilities could help you fix....

You've got to wonder whether it's time for them to stop sharing cooldowns with each other?

Pro's:
More build diversity
Easier for kirks to not completely suck
Ensign slots are more valuable
Sub Nuke is less of an iwin button?


Con's
People tank harder, games are longer...

Hmmmmm
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    In addition....

    BO Ability changes:
    Tachyon Beam - Now resists debuff, instead of drains shields, disables shield procs
    Tykens Rift - Increase size to MASSIVE, make it harder to evade, ignore etc
    VM - Subspace decompiler science consoles?
    Photonic Officer - reduce to 30 second duration with 1 minute cooldown and 45 second global. Reduces power levels to weapons, engines and shields by 10 in return, (Rank III) reduces cooldowns on all abilities by 40%


    New BO Abilities:
    Aceton Field - weaker AOE version of Aceton Beam (engineering lt comm or higher)
    Attack Pattern Epsilon - Defence, cloaking, speed and turn rate debuf (activates APB tac lt comm or higher)
    Tachyon Field - weaker AOE version of the new Tachyon Beam (sci lt comm or higher)



    Should help get a handle on some of the insane shield tanking possible now.
  • rudiefix1rudiefix1 Member Posts: 420
    edited June 2013
    Tac team is not mandatory. You can manually distribute shields perfectly. Use a little turning and you will be fine. Therefore TT is really a waste, since you can also have a nice ST (or ET) heal every 15 seconds. For really slow turners, like cariers, I would say that 1 copy can indeed save your life. The reason to use TT for escorts is because they lack engineering and science abilities, because they are the fastest turners and have the highest defense, and should not need it. For high turning cruisers and science vessels, I would go for ET or ST. I think ST is more usefull than ET, and am really a big fan of it. ALso people running ET or ST tend to also use it on team mates, whereas people running TT have it usually bound to spacebar, only reserving it for themselves, while they could also really help those sci and cruisers distributing their shields.

    But yeah, its an lazy choice to use TT. Dont complain if you get scrambled (wanna have ST) of viral matrixed (wanna have ET), because its your own choice to have no counters for that. Why you think these abilities are considered the best, or most op, in pvp-land
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    "Tac team is not mandatory. You can manually distribute shields perfectly. Use a little turning and you will be fine. Therefore TT is really a waste"

    do you pvp at all ?
  • starboardnacellestarboardnacelle Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This would have the beneficial side-effect of making the Galaxy line's third Ensign Engineer slot not suck, so I'm all for it.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited June 2013

    Con's
    People tank harder, games are longer...

    I'd like to see this game without TT , APO 3 , TS3 .

    Then maybe the ppl who tank harder than they should* would be returned to their "original size / intent" .

    I'm saying this because I think that the above took Tac's and Sci away from what they were intended and have become a crutch that is defined as "today's standard" (as evidenced by the "do you even PVP ?" question above) .

    * "harder than they should" is of course my humble opinion .
  • ssb64ssb64 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    its time for new bo abilities, you have my support... tt nerf, ET and ST boost... remake rsp to a skill that gives no bleedthru and + shield res... idk, something new
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Achiever Killers often look to 1v1 duels for proof of their superior play and are frustrated by "rock paper scissor" game mechanics."
    That's me !
  • timezargtimezarg Member Posts: 1,268
    edited June 2013
    rudiefix1 wrote: »
    Tac team is not mandatory. You can manually distribute shields perfectly. Use a little turning and you will be fine. Therefore TT is really a waste, since you can also have a nice ST (or ET) heal every 15 seconds. For really slow turners, like cariers, I would say that 1 copy can indeed save your life. The reason to use TT for escorts is because they lack engineering and science abilities, because they are the fastest turners and have the highest defense, and should not need it. For high turning cruisers and science vessels, I would go for ET or ST. I think ST is more usefull than ET, and am really a big fan of it. ALso people running ET or ST tend to also use it on team mates, whereas people running TT have it usually bound to spacebar, only reserving it for themselves, while they could also really help those sci and cruisers distributing their shields.

    But yeah, its an lazy choice to use TT. Dont complain if you get scrambled (wanna have ST) of viral matrixed (wanna have ET), because its your own choice to have no counters for that. Why you think these abilities are considered the best, or most op, in pvp-land

    Manual redistribution cannot deal with the sheer amount of burst DPS that can be hurled at you when getting alpha-striked by an escort or BoP.

    It's like you don't PvP at all. Only way just manually redistributing shields would work in heavy combat situations is if you stacked yourself to the teeth with damage resistance buffs, etc. . .and you wouldn't have room for abilities with with to kill the other person.
    tIqIpqu' 'ej nom tIqIp
  • aquitaine985aquitaine985 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Cons: Sci teams will become even more commonplace, escorts will never die.

    As much as I loathe being subnuked, having an instant Get out of Nuke Free card doesn't seem appealing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    As much as I loathe being subnuked, having an instant Get out of Nuke Free card doesn't seem appealing.

    This should be Miracle Worker.
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    This should be Miracle Worker.

    Amen there.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sci team only clears the ability jamming, it doesn't restore the debuffed powers. In the grand scheme of things, on most ships sci team would become viable not god mode, as opposed to completely unworkable.

    Compared to TSS and EPS which offer regen and resists, the actual healing part of the skill isn't way out of whack either.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Cons:
    It will make all science powers obsolete because everyone will be able to cleanse everyone at any time. In an escort that got subnuked? No worry, don't even need a sci captain ally to clear it, just do it yourself. Got Viral Matrixed at the same time? No worry, you can clear that too at the same time you clear the subnuke while still protecting your facing that is getting alpha'ed with a tac team. So not only will it make all of these science powers obsolete because everyone will be able to clear them without any type of opportunity cost, but it will also make the cleansing ability of sci/eng captains a thing of the past since escorts can just do it themselves. People [incorrectly] talk about how STO is Escorts Online. Well, if you want to prove them right, just make this change.

    In conclusion, I think this is a horrible idea.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    No opportunity cost? Stuck in warp plasma? No HE? Tough luck. Trackored and your Omega is on cooldown... Sorry, your just going to have to sit there... That's before considering the the cost of forgoing offensive abilities.

    Even dedicated healers struggle to use these abilities, given how stupidly vulnerable you are without a tac team.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    No opportunity cost? Stuck in warp plasma? No HE? Tough luck. Trackored and your Omega is on cooldown... Sorry, your just going to have to sit there... That's before considering the the cost of forgoing offensive abilities.

    Even dedicated healers struggle to use these abilities, given how stupidly vulnerable you are without a tac team.

    By opportunity cost I was referring to not having to worry about putting your team powers on CD when you use a different team power. For a healer, the opportunity cost of using ET means you won't be able to clear someone's subnuke/scramble/etc. for 15 seconds with ST or give them that emergency shield heal ST can deliver. It makes wisely choosing which team power to use irrelevant as you would be able to use them all back-to-back-to-back and could pretty much just mindlessly spam them with no regard to if you may need a separate team ability that would be put on CD.

    Dumbing down the game is not improving it IMO.

    At present it takes 30 seconds to activate 3 separate team powers (with or without team cd doffs). What you propose is that it take 0 seconds (or however fast you can push the buttons) to activate 3 separate team powers, and given 30 seconds you could activate 8 team powers (using 4 team CD doffs). Even without team CD doffs, you could activate 6 team powers in 30 seconds. Basically, you propose to buff the team powers by an insane margin by allowing them to be chained and removing all opportunity cost of having to choose between them. Yeah...no thanks.
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Tactical Team
    Removes hostile boarding parties over 10 sec
    Removes tactical debuffs over 10 sec
    +18 Starship Energy Weapons Training for 10 sec
    +18 Starship Projectile Weapons Training for 10 sec
    Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec

    Engineering Team
    +4,036 Hit Points
    Repairs disabled systems over 5 sec

    Science Team
    11 Shield Regeneration applied once to each facing
    Removes science debuffs for 5 sec

    so, are you saying that balancing tt is dumb and it wont improve the game ?
    i guess what you are trying to say is that it will retrograde your 2 copies of tt, so you dont like it maybe ?

    dont worry, auto distribute shields WILL be a captain ability
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    What I think he's trying to say is "waaaaaaaaa, stop dumbing down by game" even though tac teams are a no brainer to almost every fit (triply so if your not in a team) and by it's very nature make the other powers pointless. I mean, why give a **** about debufs when you can't even survive a bit of forced fire?

    Compared the the other healing skills eng team and sci team although comparable in heal over time, lack the resists bonuses of he, auxsif, tss epts. That's almost enough of a trade off. If anything, those skills should have combined global cooldowns with eng /sci team, not tac team.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    What I think he's trying to say is "waaaaaaaaa, stop dumbing down by game" even though tac teams are a no brainer to almost every fit (triply so if your not in a team) and by it's very nature make the other powers pointless.

    If by every fit you mean tac escort pilots then I agree. If by every fit, you mean, well, every fit, then I disagree. As a Science Captain, you should be throwing out ST and/or ET a lot more often than TT, and in a premade you should not even need TT as your tacs will have two copies of it and be able to send it to you when needed. Even a tac cruiser is going to have a spot for ET and plenty of opportunity to use it as long as he's not being focus fired.
    Compared the the other healing skills eng team and sci team although comparable in heal over time, lack the resists bonuses of he, auxsif, tss epts. That's almost enough of a trade off. If anything, those skills should have combined global cooldowns with eng /sci team, not tac team.

    Except the team powers also have cleansing abilities, which is just as important, if not more-so than their healing aspect. TT, ST, and ET all clear certain powers/debuffs that can be used against you, and if you removed the shared CD between them, it would make these powers/debuffs, which are mostly science oriented, a lot less effective since they would just constantly be cleared.
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    that happens 10% of the times, not everyone is sci, and not every scis use ss and jam, you will find a use to et and st only if you are a healer, for the instant heal only, and i still find tt a better shield "heal" to give than st in a premade

    the et subsystem repair is too situational, you might use 2 copies and still get caught without an et ready

    that doesnt happen with tt, everyone does damage so tt fits any situation, it tanks, it clears, it boosts dmg, and it can avoid alphas
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    @skurf

    My point is the cleansing powers =~ resist bonuses in terms of opportunity cost, having to then compete with the strongest tanking ability in the game top makes them worthless.

    If we change the mechanics so that Eng Team shares global cooldown with auxtosif and he, whilst sci team shares with tss, extends and maybe epts instead of tt's, then we have a situation where people have to use between high resists (a problem this game is having I've heard) and heal dot or heal alpha and anti-debuf as opposed to... do I choose to depend on team mates having split second reflexes and tt not on cooldown so I can survive the alpha of a single random competent tac captain..... or do I choose not to have a stupid build.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    that happens 10% of the times, not everyone is sci, and not every scis use ss and jam, you will find a use to et and st only if you are a healer, for the instant heal only, and i still find tt a better shield "heal" to give than st in a premade
    If the person being attacked doesn't have TT, then sure, I'd agree it'd be better to give him TT, unless of course his shields are depleted. Even though ST3 can give an amazing spike heal, it's actually not that useful just by itself if the other team has good DPS. However, if you give someone TSS, then after their sheilds are down a bit, stack a ST on top of it they're good to go.
    the et subsystem repair is too situational, you might use 2 copies and still get caught without an et ready
    That's why you wouldn't want to use ET as your primary hull heal. Use Aux2SIF or HE, then if they still need hull ET. Or if the other team is using lots of direct hull damage then spamming ET3 (with 2 CD doffs) in combination with the other hull heals would be a good idea.
    that doesnt happen with tt, everyone does damage so tt fits any situation, it tanks, it clears, it boosts dmg, and it can avoid alphas
    In no way am I denying the usefulness of TT. It's the must-have ability for tac pilots. I just don't think removing the shared cooldown between TT, ST, and ET would in any way affect this, and would only do more harm in other areas. Tac escorts are still going to have 2-3 ensign tac slots and they're going to fill 2 of them with TT. Removing the shared cooldown will not only make ET or ST more useful to tacs, but it will make TT more useful to Sci's/Engie's, which I think goes against the original concept behind this thread.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    @skurf

    My point is the cleansing powers =~ resist bonuses in terms of opportunity cost, having to then compete with the strongest tanking ability in the game top makes them worthless.
    Are you saying ET and ST are worthless? It seems like you are only taking into consideration the tac escort point of view. ET and ST are essentially worthless on a tac escort, I can agree to that, but they are extremely worthwhile on a sci/eng science ship, cruiser or carrier. Not everything should be made so readily accessible for tac escorts. Let them do their job and let the sci's do their's.
    If we change the mechanics so that Eng Team shares global cooldown with auxtosif and he, whilst sci team shares with tss, extends and maybe epts instead of tt's, then we have a situation where people have to use between high resists (a problem this game is having I've heard) and heal dot or heal alpha and anti-debuf as opposed to... do I choose to depend on team mates having split second reflexes and tt not on cooldown so I can survive the alpha of a single random competent tac captain..... or do I choose not to have a stupid build.

    People would drop like flies if you put all the hull heals on a combined CD and then all the shield heals on a shared CD as well. You would essentially eliminate the healer role in this game because they would no longer be able to "save" people by stacking heals since after using 1 hull heal or 1 shield heal, all the other respective heals would be on cooldown.

    At this point you'd be limiting the usefulness of both sci debuffers (their debuffs could be quickly cleansed due to no shared cd between the team cleansing abilities) AND sci/eng. healers (because of shared cd's on multiple shield/hull heals that you propose).
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    i support a tactical team nerf or a engineering/science team boost only
  • milanvoriusmilanvorius Member Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It would be more honest to swap ET and Aux2Sif abilities, Aux2Sif is more like sci tm and tac tm. A pure spike hull heal with nothing else is so situational that it would be enough to just let ET not share a cooldown with anything.

    TT and ST are comparable to ET in power for their purpose, but not applicability. Two (TT/ST) are sustainment or cleanse powers, one (ET) is a premortem heal. There is no reason to pop ET preemptively therefor the opportunity cost is greater to lose TT or ST for ET. It is good, but here is the key: ET is second rate to TT and ST in use, if you have to choose ET is not a choice with all the other hull heals out there and greater power level perks of new equipment. Buffing it wouldn't really help i dont think because TT is just that useful. The shared cooldown for the teams needs to be eliminated or less than 5 seconds.
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  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    st is only a weak shied heal, the only point it has is to clean jam sensors and subnuke cd debuff, you can handle ss easely, and it only lasts 5 seconds, dont compare st to tt
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  • milanvoriusmilanvorius Member Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    st is only a weak shied heal, the only point it has is to clean jam sensors and subnuke cd debuff, you can handle ss easely, and it only lasts 5 seconds, dont compare st to tt

    I consider the SNB cleanse the primary use for ST and it is often called for in PvP. I agree that TT is above the ST because the constant shield redist, but if you could only pick two, which two would you always pick in all honesty. The fact that ET is omittable shows it is not on par with the other two, HE and Aux2Sif can make up for it and don't cause ST or TT to cooldown.

    ET is replaceable, ST and TT are not covered by anything else for their primary functions.
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    skurf wrote: »
    Are you saying ET and ST are worthless? It seems like you are only taking into consideration the tac escort point of view.

    No, quite the opposite infant. The fact of the matter is top level players don't argue about having a tac team on their build or not. The real argument is how many or weather it's on global cooldown or not. When measured against something that effectively quadruples your shield hp and regen, the fact of the matter is that without team support you'll seldom want to use anything that global cooldowns with tt because your stupidly weak without it.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Tactical team is basically the most important skill in the game, and every ship should have at least one copy for pvp.

    With shared cooldowns across the other team abilities, they in turn become significantly less viable.

    Without shared cooldowns sci and engineering teams, (especially on cruisers with inferior ensign engineering options!) have greater build diversity.


    Tac escorts will benifit, but significantly less than sci or cruiser ships, as they will often trade one heal for another, often with lower resists and heal over time.

    A sci or eng heal boat build would then be significantly more effective and offer more counters to the myriad of TRIBBLE pilots face in the modern game.
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