Could someone please enlighten me how a ship with 2 tactical consoles, using single beams, can possibly do more damage than an escort with 5 tactical consoles, using Dual Heavy Cannons and turrets?
Because, uhm, it is quite unintuitive that the ship with less mathematical damage potential should do more damage. Or should I say, complete nonsense?
Everything is said in generalizations and things aren't true for all cases.
A 2 tac console cruiser with a lack of tactical Boff stations isn't going to out DPS anything, in the exact same maner a escort without engineering boff stations and consoles isn't going to tank at all.
A 3-4 tac console and lt cmd tac cruiser with 8 weapons and using beams can often out DPS an escort. They can't out burst damage an escort. But over the course of the match they can certainly be on target far more often, and using BFaW be able to hit a lot more than a scatter volley can..
In essence: No, you don't have to take an escort, you can always use a cruiser that is almost like an escort.
Those ships are nothing like escorts, unless having a Lt.Cmdr. Tac slot is THE defining feature of an escort... no it's not. What was that about generalizations?
Klingon ships are battlecruisers and are a different kind of ship entirely, and the Regent has average cruiser layouts, only with a tac focused boff layout. Everything else isn't more escort-ish than any other cruiser. The Galaxy is the worst cruiser in the game, it's not a good example on cruiser stats. You can do the kind of good damage people have been talking about with Fleet Excelsiors, Tactical Odysseys, Galors, D'deridex' etc.
In essence: No, you don't have to take an escort, you can always use a cruiser that is almost like an escort.
Actually, the "generalization" was a statement of absolute fact - a "Cruiser" CAN out DPS an "Escort". The fact that this event won't always happen does not, in anyway, make the statement untrue. Your quibble is that there are certain scenarios that make the event more or less likely, but so what? That doesn't make the initial claim invalid.
Also, your rule could just as easily be stated as: "If you want to do a large amount of damage, you should choose a ship designed for that role", which I would argue is both intuitive and non-controversial.
This is just going to circle back to where this discussion always goes - A certain subset of players will always feel like the only way to have "fun" in the game is to be objectively better than other players, and they latch on to DPS as the way to measure skill, and then complain that the game is not balanced, because not every option in the game supports that playstyle equally.
Ah, so we are talking about Cruiser/escort hybrids here, a few very special cases like the Fleet Torkaht, the Regent or the Tactical BortasQ'. But the abovementioned generalizations are rather not helpful here, when the question is as the subject sais.
In essence: No, you don't have to take an escort, you can always use a cruiser that is almost like an escort.
No, its not that special, any cruiser with lt cmd tac. The oddy, excel, assault refit, and then lock box cruisers like the d'kora, galor, etc. They play like a cruiser, not an escort.
It is all about time on target. An escort only seems op when its weapons are right on target, when its not.. its doing nothing. A cruiser's beams are hitting constantly, and keeping a broadside on targets isn't that difficult.
My tac escort will often score about 12-13k dps average in an STF. It can do burst damage around 55k. Some STFs like CSE is much higher.
My eng cruiser is generally 9-10k, with bursts up to 30k.
Considering the damage boosts a tac gets, that eng cruiser does pretty well. In STFs like ISE its pretty typical for the cruiser to score over 10, while the escort gets less because it has to hunt for spheres, generators and transformers which are all placed poorly for cannon fire.
as it goes for leveling: sure an escort or tac will mean you level faster...take any random MMO/RPG you know, and try to level a tank or healer class solo...then take the same game and level a DD class...
if you don't have the time, the answer is simple: you level fastest with a dd class, period.
STO even makes it easier for any class to level by making the ship optional. Any class is more than viable in escorts for leveling. DPS is king, thats not only true for sto. What is true for sto however is the endgame content design that is definately not the brightest aspect of the game.
3 years and the game went from 4 stfs back to 3 and then again up to 4...
Could someone please enlighten me how a ship with 2 tactical consoles, using single beams, can possibly do more damage than an escort with 5 tactical consoles, using Dual Heavy Cannons and turrets?
Because, uhm, it is quite unintuitive that the ship with less mathematical damage potential should do more damage. Or should I say, complete nonsense?
You sir are both naive and close minded, however, you are in good company with most of the other people who post on this forum. Allow me to enlighten you.
hmmm... not quite DBBs and 2 tac consoles huh? The thing about the Tor'Kaht/Vor'cha is its maneuverable enough to use those DHCs that you are SOOO quick to claim cruisers cant use, but it has 1.5x the hull of your escort.
Remember everyone, KDF has cruisers too...
Light Speed! - No, light speed is too slow. We need LUDICROUS SPEED!
Ajma420 - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Federation Catherine The Great - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Empire Vladimir - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Rihannsu Empire
Well I feel offended You Escort Captains frankly NEED us to Tank so you can pew-pew
My two main characters (my Fed and my Rom) have very different play styles. My Feddy flies around in what I, aptly, call the USS Glass Cannon as thats precisely what my Kumari is and should be used for. My Rom was previously in the D'deridex-R but now (thank you lower exchange prices) Captains a Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. Guess which ones my favourite.
If anything, I've found its Science Vessels that need a little buffage. I'd rather fly my all beam boat then my top heavy glass cannon :cool: IMO
P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just my humble opinion as someone whose been here since beta
THE ARTIST FORMALLY KNOWN AS TRYULIS Vice Admiral Dir Sonatra, I.R.W. Kholairlha, Scimitar Class Warbird Vice Admiral Oshin S'ree, USS Steamrunner, Steamrunner Class
Well I feel offended You Escort Captains frankly NEED us to Tank so you can pew-pew
My two main characters (my Fed and my Rom) have very different play styles. My Feddy flies around in what I, aptly, call the USS Glass Cannon as thats precisely what my Kumari is and should be used for. My Rom was previously in the D'deridex-R but now (thank you lower exchange prices) Captains a Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. Guess which ones my favourite.
If anything, I've found its Science Vessels that need a little buffage. I'd rather fly my all beam boat then my top heavy glass cannon :cool: IMO
Finally someone who gets it. I applaud your judgement.
Light Speed! - No, light speed is too slow. We need LUDICROUS SPEED!
Ajma420 - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Federation Catherine The Great - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Empire Vladimir - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Rihannsu Empire
Now, the question raised in this topic could be read as: "Should you always choose a ship designed for DPS?"
Almost the right question. The trouble is that too many people unthinkingly answer "yes" to this question because they believe and/or assume and/or read on the interwebz that DPS is the only thing that matters if you want to have fun in the game.
So, really, the question here is "Can I have fun playing something other than a DPS ship?", and the answer to that question really depends on personality. Certainly some people enjoy a more deliberate pace through missions, while others feel like doing anything other than blowing things up fast is a chore. Some people focus on solo play, while others love being a team supporter. Some want combat to be fast and sharp, while others like a more grinding battle of attrition. None of these approaches is objectively right or wrong, but the only way to know which works for a given player is to try them both and see which one feels better.
In any case, the trouble starts when one of two things happen - players who were having fun doing "Y" are told by an internet talking head that they are having "wrongbadfun" because they aren't doing "X", or players who want to play an "X" focused playstyle want to use a ship/class that is designed to do "Y".
so you dont fly a escort because you want your cruiser to be a escort .They should release cruiser holoemitters because clearly the problem is the way the ship looks.
Cruisers are the tanky ships not the dps ships.If you want dps fly escort but dont QQ about how hard is to get dps from a cruiser.
There is a Cruiser Escort ship which is called the chimera.
It has a turn rate better than science vessels and durability close to a cruiser
its not as good in a 100% role as either the cruiser or escort, but it does pack a punch. I liken it to pocket battleships in WW2.
It also makes a terrific tour guide, has a 60s Slipstream, and its size, makes it less likely to miss the centre of Gamma Orionis...
Hey all of you escort captains. How all of us 3+ year veterans get into some cruisers and show these guys how it is done? By the time we are finished, they'll never gripe about escorts again and they'll be asking for cruiser nerfs LOL
I am serious about this. Tired of these cruiser whimps crying foul against escorts alll of the time because they don't want to spend some brain power and learn the nuances of the game like the rest of us did.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
It's going to be a good ISE run: 5 Escorts
It's going to be a bad ISE run: 5 (Fed)cruisers
It's going to be a good PvP match: 2 Escorts and 3 (decent) science ships
It's going to be a (very) bad PvP match: 5 cruisers
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
Using the same techniques people use to make their cruisers "1st in DPS" (Beams with FAW, etc.), the escorts will outdamage you, no matter how much you think you know. Escorts are the DPS ships, and they out-dps the cruisers if built in euqal DPS directions.
That's the problem.. you don't build in equal directions for a cruiser to out DPS an escort. An escort has Alpha.. that's it.. and maybe, if they don't want to sacrifice a CRF, they can have APB... cruisers can have all sorts of DEM, with doffs to strengthen them-- armor pericing beams that have disable abilities that a pure cannon escort cannot have plus all of the reputation TRIBBLE that goes right through shields.
You guys want things handed to you because you are too lazy to think with your brains. I have seen an all beam boat tear up my shields and armor like it was going out of style.. doesn't matter how fast I am going or how much shields/armor I have.
First of all, the OP has no clout in his opinions as he has just started. But he thinks he knows as much, if not more than a 3+ year veteran of the game. I can forgive him for that. Second, you have all the pure cruiser captains coming in here rallying because they probably haven't even tried what I mentioned above... and that is just for starters.
And the reason why you don't succeed is because you are trying to build like an escort.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
As long as one plays alone, that is entirely one's own choice. But as soon as you get to play in teams with other players, success of the team is what defines fun for most of your teammates, and for that, you need a dps ship in most of the game's content, be it a cruiser with heavy tac leaning, or an outright tac ship. That's just the nature of the endgame missions out there.
I call bull on this. For starters, playing on a team (especially a pug) doesn't oblige me to do anything but perform whatever job I take adequately (as in, within the time limit for the optional). If some (or even a majority of) players feel like the goal of every STF is to finish as fast as possible, and choose to get upset when things take longer than they "should", those players should not be playing on pugs. Period. If as a player you feel like your fun depends on other players playing the way you want them to, then it is on you to find a team that fits your needs. You do not get to "draft" a random pugger into your DPS fest and then complain when they don't meet your requirements.
Second, none of the endgame "requires" more DPS than what a science ship puts out. You can complete every optional STF, etc, without having a single Tac/escort on the team. As long as people focus on the task at hand and communicate, you can do pretty much anything (with the possible exception of beating NWS, since I've only ever got to wave 9 on that).
While there are a variety of choices for end game level 50... Especially if done via missions, then there is nothing that compares to the escort. You are killing enemies in seconds instead of a 10 minute wearing them down with a cruiser which they can't really damage. You are getting far more XP per hour.
I call bull on this. For starters, playing on a team (especially a pug) doesn't oblige me to do anything but perform whatever job I take adequately (as in, within the time limit for the optional). If some (or even a majority of) players feel like the goal of every STF is to finish as fast as possible, and choose to get upset when things take longer than they "should", those players should not be playing on pugs. Period. If as a player you feel like your fun depends on other players playing the way you want them to, then it is on you to find a team that fits your needs. You do not get to "draft" a random pugger into your DPS fest and then complain when they don't meet your requirements.
Second, none of the endgame "requires" more DPS than what a science ship puts out. You can complete every optional STF, etc, without having a single Tac/escort on the team. As long as people focus on the task at hand and communicate, you can do pretty much anything (with the possible exception of beating NWS, since I've only ever got to wave 9 on that).
+1 to this guy. The only thing he forgot, is to condemn the leechers, especially the so-called "elite" ones, that'll sit there, and do nothing but camp out somewhere NOT participating, all the while saying TRIBBLE like "You're so noob", to everyone else.
But I've seen plenty of PUG's that out-perform missions put together from EliteSTF channel. On the other swing of the handle, I've also seen horrid mistakes that shouldn't even be remembered, except as what NOT to do. And some of those horrid missions included personnel flying outrageously high dps ships, but because they did something stupid, or did NOT do something they were supposed to, the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I call bull on this. For starters, playing on a team (especially a pug) doesn't oblige me to do anything but perform whatever job I take adequately (as in, within the time limit for the optional). If some (or even a majority of) players feel like the goal of every STF is to finish as fast as possible, and choose to get upset when things take longer than they "should", those players should not be playing on pugs. Period. If as a player you feel like your fun depends on other players playing the way you want them to, then it is on you to find a team that fits your needs. You do not get to "draft" a random pugger into your DPS fest and then complain when they don't meet your requirements.
Second, none of the endgame "requires" more DPS than what a science ship puts out. You can complete every optional STF, etc, without having a single Tac/escort on the team. As long as people focus on the task at hand and communicate, you can do pretty much anything (with the possible exception of beating NWS, since I've only ever got to wave 9 on that).
I agree with the first part, the second (in bold)...not so much.
Especially in a PUG with 2 or more Eng/Cruisers.
And they're the worst because they don't put out the damage of a Tac or use anything helpful that a Sci can do (like Grav Well, Sub Nuc).
All they can do is absorb damage and survive...and that's all.
That isn't an attack on Eng/Cruisers, but rather the shortcomings on the Dev's part.
Engs need a legitimate arsenal of OFFENSIVE powers like the Sci and Tacs have.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I agree with the first part, the second (in bold)...not so much.
Especially in a PUG with 2 or more Eng/Cruisers.
And they're the worst because they don't put out the damage of a Tac or use anything helpful that a Sci can do (like Grav Well, Sub Nuc).
All they can do is absorb damage and survive...and that's all.
That isn't an attack on Eng/Cruisers, but rather the shortcomings on the Dev's part.
Engs need a legitimate arsenal of OFFENSIVE powers like the Sci and Tacs have.
I would guess he is refering to the Vesta... except you know, vesta is SPECIAL.
No, it's my opinion formed over the past year playing STF's.
When I see 2 or more Eng/Cruisers in a PUG, the rest of us have to pick it up a bit.
Engs are impotent because they were made that way.
You can thank the Devs for that.
Hopefully that'll change and I see no reason they shouldn't buff Engs or add some offensive bling to their skills.
Cryptic needs to make the Engineer career relevant.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Comments
Everything is said in generalizations and things aren't true for all cases.
A 2 tac console cruiser with a lack of tactical Boff stations isn't going to out DPS anything, in the exact same maner a escort without engineering boff stations and consoles isn't going to tank at all.
A 3-4 tac console and lt cmd tac cruiser with 8 weapons and using beams can often out DPS an escort. They can't out burst damage an escort. But over the course of the match they can certainly be on target far more often, and using BFaW be able to hit a lot more than a scatter volley can..
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
Those ships are nothing like escorts, unless having a Lt.Cmdr. Tac slot is THE defining feature of an escort... no it's not. What was that about generalizations?
Actually, the "generalization" was a statement of absolute fact - a "Cruiser" CAN out DPS an "Escort". The fact that this event won't always happen does not, in anyway, make the statement untrue. Your quibble is that there are certain scenarios that make the event more or less likely, but so what? That doesn't make the initial claim invalid.
Also, your rule could just as easily be stated as: "If you want to do a large amount of damage, you should choose a ship designed for that role", which I would argue is both intuitive and non-controversial.
This is just going to circle back to where this discussion always goes - A certain subset of players will always feel like the only way to have "fun" in the game is to be objectively better than other players, and they latch on to DPS as the way to measure skill, and then complain that the game is not balanced, because not every option in the game supports that playstyle equally.
No, its not that special, any cruiser with lt cmd tac. The oddy, excel, assault refit, and then lock box cruisers like the d'kora, galor, etc. They play like a cruiser, not an escort.
It is all about time on target. An escort only seems op when its weapons are right on target, when its not.. its doing nothing. A cruiser's beams are hitting constantly, and keeping a broadside on targets isn't that difficult.
My tac escort will often score about 12-13k dps average in an STF. It can do burst damage around 55k. Some STFs like CSE is much higher.
My eng cruiser is generally 9-10k, with bursts up to 30k.
Considering the damage boosts a tac gets, that eng cruiser does pretty well. In STFs like ISE its pretty typical for the cruiser to score over 10, while the escort gets less because it has to hunt for spheres, generators and transformers which are all placed poorly for cannon fire.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
if you don't have the time, the answer is simple: you level fastest with a dd class, period.
STO even makes it easier for any class to level by making the ship optional. Any class is more than viable in escorts for leveling. DPS is king, thats not only true for sto. What is true for sto however is the endgame content design that is definately not the brightest aspect of the game.
3 years and the game went from 4 stfs back to 3 and then again up to 4...
You sir are both naive and close minded, however, you are in good company with most of the other people who post on this forum. Allow me to enlighten you.
Here is my Fleet Tor'Kaht build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=notanescort_0
hmmm... not quite DBBs and 2 tac consoles huh? The thing about the Tor'Kaht/Vor'cha is its maneuverable enough to use those DHCs that you are SOOO quick to claim cruisers cant use, but it has 1.5x the hull of your escort.
Remember everyone, KDF has cruisers too...
Ajma420 - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Federation
Catherine The Great - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Empire
Vladimir - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Rihannsu Empire
My two main characters (my Fed and my Rom) have very different play styles. My Feddy flies around in what I, aptly, call the USS Glass Cannon as thats precisely what my Kumari is and should be used for. My Rom was previously in the D'deridex-R but now (thank you lower exchange prices) Captains a Tal Shiar Battle Cruiser. Guess which ones my favourite.
If anything, I've found its Science Vessels that need a little buffage. I'd rather fly my all beam boat then my top heavy glass cannon :cool: IMO
P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just my humble opinion as someone whose been here since beta
Vice Admiral Dir Sonatra, I.R.W. Kholairlha, Scimitar Class Warbird
Vice Admiral Oshin S'ree, USS Steamrunner, Steamrunner Class
TEN FORWARD FLEET
Finally someone who gets it. I applaud your judgement.
Ajma420 - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Federation
Catherine The Great - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Empire
Vladimir - Lv 50 Tac - Pride of the Rihannsu Empire
Almost the right question. The trouble is that too many people unthinkingly answer "yes" to this question because they believe and/or assume and/or read on the interwebz that DPS is the only thing that matters if you want to have fun in the game.
So, really, the question here is "Can I have fun playing something other than a DPS ship?", and the answer to that question really depends on personality. Certainly some people enjoy a more deliberate pace through missions, while others feel like doing anything other than blowing things up fast is a chore. Some people focus on solo play, while others love being a team supporter. Some want combat to be fast and sharp, while others like a more grinding battle of attrition. None of these approaches is objectively right or wrong, but the only way to know which works for a given player is to try them both and see which one feels better.
In any case, the trouble starts when one of two things happen - players who were having fun doing "Y" are told by an internet talking head that they are having "wrongbadfun" because they aren't doing "X", or players who want to play an "X" focused playstyle want to use a ship/class that is designed to do "Y".
There is a Cruiser Escort ship which is called the chimera.
It has a turn rate better than science vessels and durability close to a cruiser
its not as good in a 100% role as either the cruiser or escort, but it does pack a punch. I liken it to pocket battleships in WW2.
It also makes a terrific tour guide, has a 60s Slipstream, and its size, makes it less likely to miss the centre of Gamma Orionis...
Hey all of you escort captains. How all of us 3+ year veterans get into some cruisers and show these guys how it is done? By the time we are finished, they'll never gripe about escorts again and they'll be asking for cruiser nerfs LOL
I am serious about this. Tired of these cruiser whimps crying foul against escorts alll of the time because they don't want to spend some brain power and learn the nuances of the game like the rest of us did.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
It's going to be a bad ISE run: 5 (Fed)cruisers
It's going to be a good PvP match: 2 Escorts and 3 (decent) science ships
It's going to be a (very) bad PvP match: 5 cruisers
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
That's the problem.. you don't build in equal directions for a cruiser to out DPS an escort. An escort has Alpha.. that's it.. and maybe, if they don't want to sacrifice a CRF, they can have APB... cruisers can have all sorts of DEM, with doffs to strengthen them-- armor pericing beams that have disable abilities that a pure cannon escort cannot have plus all of the reputation TRIBBLE that goes right through shields.
You guys want things handed to you because you are too lazy to think with your brains. I have seen an all beam boat tear up my shields and armor like it was going out of style.. doesn't matter how fast I am going or how much shields/armor I have.
First of all, the OP has no clout in his opinions as he has just started. But he thinks he knows as much, if not more than a 3+ year veteran of the game. I can forgive him for that. Second, you have all the pure cruiser captains coming in here rallying because they probably haven't even tried what I mentioned above... and that is just for starters.
And the reason why you don't succeed is because you are trying to build like an escort.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
I call bull on this. For starters, playing on a team (especially a pug) doesn't oblige me to do anything but perform whatever job I take adequately (as in, within the time limit for the optional). If some (or even a majority of) players feel like the goal of every STF is to finish as fast as possible, and choose to get upset when things take longer than they "should", those players should not be playing on pugs. Period. If as a player you feel like your fun depends on other players playing the way you want them to, then it is on you to find a team that fits your needs. You do not get to "draft" a random pugger into your DPS fest and then complain when they don't meet your requirements.
Second, none of the endgame "requires" more DPS than what a science ship puts out. You can complete every optional STF, etc, without having a single Tac/escort on the team. As long as people focus on the task at hand and communicate, you can do pretty much anything (with the possible exception of beating NWS, since I've only ever got to wave 9 on that).
+1 to this guy. The only thing he forgot, is to condemn the leechers, especially the so-called "elite" ones, that'll sit there, and do nothing but camp out somewhere NOT participating, all the while saying TRIBBLE like "You're so noob", to everyone else.
But I've seen plenty of PUG's that out-perform missions put together from EliteSTF channel. On the other swing of the handle, I've also seen horrid mistakes that shouldn't even be remembered, except as what NOT to do. And some of those horrid missions included personnel flying outrageously high dps ships, but because they did something stupid, or did NOT do something they were supposed to, the whole thing fell apart like a house of cards.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
I agree with the first part, the second (in bold)...not so much.
Especially in a PUG with 2 or more Eng/Cruisers.
And they're the worst because they don't put out the damage of a Tac or use anything helpful that a Sci can do (like Grav Well, Sub Nuc).
All they can do is absorb damage and survive...and that's all.
That isn't an attack on Eng/Cruisers, but rather the shortcomings on the Dev's part.
Engs need a legitimate arsenal of OFFENSIVE powers like the Sci and Tacs have.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
You are simply wrong.
I would guess he is refering to the Vesta... except you know, vesta is SPECIAL.
When I see 2 or more Eng/Cruisers in a PUG, the rest of us have to pick it up a bit.
Engs are impotent because they were made that way.
You can thank the Devs for that.
Hopefully that'll change and I see no reason they shouldn't buff Engs or add some offensive bling to their skills.
Cryptic needs to make the Engineer career relevant.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev