test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Bridge Officer Stations/Powers: -1 power or +3 powers and +1 station at Admiral?

projectfrontierprojectfrontier Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited January 2014 in Federation Discussion
Bridge officer stations are determined by rank, the "primary focus" of the ship (escort, science and cruiser), and at Admiral a semi "secondary/tertiary" focus arrangement.

As a player advances in rank the tier of ship available determines how many total powers there are with the ship's "focuses" dictating how many powers are available for the specializations of tactical, engineering and science.

For basic ships (the ones that come from rank tokens) the following happens:

At tier 0-1 the ship has 3 powers.
At tier 2 the ship has 5 powers.
At tier 3 the ship has 8 powers.
At tier 4 the ship has 10 powers.
At tier 5 the ship has 12 powers.

You start with 3 and then get +2, +3, +2, and +2 with the +3 being an "odd man out." Either there is +1 too many (at tier 3) or 3 too few (with +1 needed at Tier 4 and +2 needed at Tier 5).

The basic ships players can get have their powers, under the current model, broken up into:

Primary focus: CMD/LTC (7 total)
Non-Primary focus #1, or "secondary": LT/EN (3 total)
Non-Primary focus #2, or "tertiary": LT (2 total)

The secondary/tertiary are separated by 1 power-slot which is not all that significant given they cap out at LT.

Adding +3 powers as suggested above turns 12 powers into 15 and gives us a more clear definition of primary/secondary/tertiary roles based on total available power counts with the following basic configuation:

Primary - CMD/LTC (unchanged) (7 total)
Secondary - LTC/LT (+2 powers) (5 total)
Tertiary - LTC (+1 power) (3 total)

As for adding a 6th station - the tertiary LTC could become a LT/EN which would further emphasize the separation of primary/secondary/tertiary by having each set delineated by total count of powers as well as by highest-rank of power available:

Primary gets Commander.
Secondary gets Lieutenant Commander.
Tertiary gets Lieutenant.

Even ships that have "non-standard" configurations can be upgraded with ease whether they have universal stations or reduced station counts - the whole idea is to make progression growth more consistent and to improve the current (starship) game experience within its existing context and without "extreme" alteration.

To all of the people who support the idea and to all of the people whose "QQ" tears will nay-say it, come and posts your delicious responses for all to feast upon.

My next posts will be on "starship-class/type naming conventions", "starship weapons", and the ever amusing "Why do we have captain classes anyways?"

*ENJOY THE SAUCE*
Post edited by projectfrontier on

Comments

  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    No, for two reasons.

    1. We are gaining additional powers anyway through traits, consoles, sets, special ships, reputations and devices and singularity cores.
    Frankly we have more than enough options to do fancy stuff besides shooting weapons.
    There is a point where the player just can't handle anymore and the UI can't either. It's already stretched to the limit. Add one more power and I can't place it anymore in my power tray.

    2. Shared cool downs and not enough options for Boff powers.
    While we have an abundancy of other means to gain clickable powers the boff powers are limited to a large degree by shared cooldowns.
    The most diversity you find in science but even there you have the problem that their cooldown sharing depends on the kind of power which is a limiting factor (deflector, shield, sensors, etc.)
    Tactical has diversity, but mixing beams, cannons, torpedos and mines means diminishing their effectiveness and outside of noobs no one is really willing to compromise there.
    So you end up with redundancies, you don't need to slot 4 beam powers or 4 attack patterns or 2 copies of each torpedo power since at least one of them will be in perpetual cool down.
    The same problem strikes the engineers even harder with their EptX powers.
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • projectfrontierprojectfrontier Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    timelord79 wrote: »
    No, for two reasons.

    1. We are gaining additional powers anyway through traits, consoles, sets, special ships, reputations and devices and singularity cores.
    Frankly we have more than enough options to do fancy stuff besides shooting weapons.
    There is a point where the player just can't handle anymore and the UI can't either. It's already stretched to the limit. Add one more power and I can't place it anymore in my power tray.

    2. Shared cool downs and not enough options for Boff powers.
    While we have an abundancy of other means to gain clickable powers the boff powers are limited to a large degree by shared cooldowns.
    The most diversity you find in science but even there you have the problem that their cooldown sharing depends on the kind of power which is a limiting factor (deflector, shield, sensors, etc.)
    Tactical has diversity, but mixing beams, cannons, torpedos and mines means diminishing their effectiveness and outside of noobs no one is really willing to compromise there.
    So you end up with redundancies, you don't need to slot 4 beam powers or 4 attack patterns or 2 copies of each torpedo power since at least one of them will be in perpetual cool down.
    The same problem strikes the engineers even harder with their EptX powers.

    Greetings timelord79 - Your initial line says "no" but your justifications are saying "yes". They're also saying that you don't know what you're talking about beyond a novice understanding of the game which seems strange given how many times you've posted according to the forum. It wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't so subtle and yet impossible to miss by the end of your post.

    Thank you for the feast of your delicious QQ tears for we shall all be nourished by them in the tough times ahead.
  • shockwave85shockwave85 Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Actually, timelord's comments are quite astute, and apparent to anybody who does in fact understand the game well. In addition to the issues noted, there's also the need to give players limits. Right now, the limited number of Boff powers is what influences your whole build. The number and level of Tactical slots determine what kinds of weapons you will use. Limited Engineering and Science slots force you to make choices about power management, damage buffs, healing, and control. You can't excel at it all, so you have to choose. This leads to variation in specific builds and keeps the game from becoming boring.

    If you give people too many skill slots, you will just move toward a point where everybody can do everything, and career/ship choices mean nothing. You're already seeing complaints about this as Tactical/Escorts find themselves with enough tanking ability that they don't need tanks and healers to support them. We don't need to make the situation worse.
    ssog-maco-sig.jpg
  • zombiedeadheadedzombiedeadheaded Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Greetings timelord79 - Your initial line says "no" but your justifications are saying "yes". They're also saying that you don't know what you're talking about beyond a novice understanding of the game which seems strange given how many times you've posted according to the forum. It wouldn't be so funny if it wasn't so subtle and yet impossible to miss by the end of your post.

    Thank you for the feast of your delicious QQ tears for we shall all be nourished by them in the tough times ahead.

    His initial line says 'no', and so do his justifications. He patently does know what he's talking about, and where the hell do you see him QQing.? Trying to denigrate someone who disagrees with you is a pretty weak response.
  • dknight0001dknight0001 Member Posts: 1,542
    edited June 2013
    Your maths is wrong.

    You forgot to add in your captain powers.

    Coming off the top of me head.

    At level 50 I get 5 universals, I get 5 career abilities, That's two new ones per tier right?

    So a tier 5 ship has minimum 22 powers. I'll ignore abandon ship so 21, and I never counted Slipstream. Let's also add in 2 to 4 devices, what you completed the Romulan and Nukara rep grinds? Add 2 more abilities. So even the 4 BOFF BoP gets 26 powers (consider the ensign slot cloak).

    Some ships have built in abilities, like cloak, hangers, Lances, Javelins, Transformations. Now add in sets giving you an ability, that could be an extra two power right there, Weapons systems and ship systems.

    Special Consoles add abilities.

    Each ship build can usually squeeze in at least one special console, and since the exchange sells cross faction consoles they are easy enough to get.

    I don't have weapons showing on my bars, I am out of space on some ships. I'd need nearly 40 places to put icons for your suggestion the UI doesn't seem to be able to handle your upgrade.

    A T5 Romulan Cruiser will have 12 BOFF abilities, 10 Captain Abilities, 4 Devices, Cloak, 2 Rep abilities. That's 29 abilities right there. A set bonus or two and a Activatable console will be 32 abilities. 2 more than can fit on the largest UI display. Unless you want to see all the bars and your BOFFs which clutters up the screen IMO.

    I'm starting to think the "-" and "=" keys need to be added in for 3 rows of 12. (Alt, Ctrl & Shift of course work with "-" and "=")
    I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. :confused:
    If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
    When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
  • projectfrontierprojectfrontier Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Actually, timelord's comments are quite astute, and apparent to anybody who does in fact understand the game well. In addition to the issues noted, there's also the need to give players limits. Right now, the limited number of Boff powers is what influences your whole build. The number and level of Tactical slots determine what kinds of weapons you will use. Limited Engineering and Science slots force you to make choices about power management, damage buffs, healing, and control. You can't excel at it all, so you have to choose. This leads to variation in specific builds and keeps the game from becoming boring.

    If you give people too many skill slots, you will just move toward a point where everybody can do everything, and career/ship choices mean nothing. You're already seeing complaints about this as Tactical/Escorts find themselves with enough tanking ability that they don't need tanks and healers to support them. We don't need to make the situation worse.

    Actually timelord79's comments are not astute, but you're welcome to think so. You're equally welcome to continue preaching the notion that limited abilities overall differentiates ships to the point where they have a practical value in roles when in fact this game's summary purpose in PVE and PVP is "dps race", roles be damned.

    If you were really concerned about specializations having a real purpose you would support having ships losing the ability to use powers beyond their immediate "focus". They would be oriented towards "tactical", "engineering", and "science" and "hull size" would have a mechanical purpose exclusive of the current arbitrary system.

    And one day Cryptic may, assuming they ever implement the whole "captain with a flight of ships" idea, do that as it would allow them to make space more like ground - each "character" in the unit has its specialization with a specific role and they all can pew pew layzors to varying degrees of effectiveness otherwise. That would improve the game dramatically.
    His initial line says 'no', and so do his justifications. He patently does know what he's talking about, and where the hell do you see him QQing.? Trying to denigrate someone who disagrees with you is a pretty weak response.

    There is no denigration involved on my end, I simply stated the truth: that player has no idea what they're talking about.

    (1) They argue the UI is at its limit overall when visually and functionally it is far from it.

    (A) The UI scales for size and the boff station element is, for all intents and purposes, dynamically generated based on the ship being used. In "rearrange hud", as I have no doubt you already know, you can stretch that component horizontally to put everything in a row, vertically to put everything in a column, or leave everything as a chunk - whatever the case is adding a sixth station at VA will not break it, not even if it is a LTC.

    (B) The UI's "power tray" (or "personal tray #1 and #2" as the UI identifies it), functionally speaking, is only limited by the arbitrary constraint Cryptic of forty (40) keybinds and the ability to simultaneously display sixty (60) powers out of the one-hundred (100) it can slot overall.

    Between 1.A and 1.B their argument is exposed for what it is - delicious QQ tears about how hard a time they're having. Incidentally that makes it support for the first proposition: minus one (-1) power at VA therefore making their "No" most assuredly as "Yes", even if in favor of our losing function.

    (2) They argue that gaining three (3) more powers shared between the two (2) non-primary specializations on a ship, which is the main focus of the second proposition with the extra station being secondary, is impossible because of shared cooldowns and lacking diversity.

    The blatantly gibe comment about mixing weapon types does not give them credibility and their fixation on tactical powers is equally non-sequitur particularly as engineering, which they only offhandedly mention. Tactical and Science have at least (2) powers they can activate that don't share cooldowns and are not "team" abilities - Engineer has one (1) group beyond "team" at ensign - and the duration of those abilities is long enough that they can run two (2) in tandem in spite of the cooldown.

    What their argument supports beyond losing a power is that we can't really tie all of our ship systems together, as we should be able to presumably, with the abilities available at ensign. All that manages to do is support my second proposition of having more powers made available as those powers are higher tier abilities meaning we gain access to the components otherwise denied to us.
    Your maths is wrong.

    You forgot to add in your captain powers.

    Coming off the top of me head.

    At level 50 I get 5 universals, I get 5 career abilities, That's two new ones per tier right?

    So a tier 5 ship has minimum 22 powers. I'll ignore abandon ship so 21, and I never counted Slipstream. Let's also add in 2 to 4 devices, what you completed the Romulan and Nukara rep grinds? Add 2 more abilities. So even the 4 BOFF BoP gets 26 powers (consider the ensign slot cloak).

    Some ships have built in abilities, like cloak, hangers, Lances, Javelins, Transformations. Now add in sets giving you an ability, that could be an extra two power right there, Weapons systems and ship systems.

    Special Consoles add abilities.

    Each ship build can usually squeeze in at least one special console, and since the exchange sells cross faction consoles they are easy enough to get.

    I don't have weapons showing on my bars, I am out of space on some ships. I'd need nearly 40 places to put icons for your suggestion the UI doesn't seem to be able to handle your upgrade.

    A T5 Romulan Cruiser will have 12 BOFF abilities, 10 Captain Abilities, 4 Devices, Cloak, 2 Rep abilities. That's 29 abilities right there. A set bonus or two and a Activatable console will be 32 abilities. 2 more than can fit on the largest UI display. Unless you want to see all the bars and your BOFFs which clutters up the screen IMO.

    I'm starting to think the "-" and "=" keys need to be added in for 3 rows of 12. (Alt, Ctrl & Shift of course work with "-" and "=")

    As stated above - the UI currently has forty (40) hot keys for "personal tray #1 and #2" (or "power tray" abilities as some call them) and the ability to display sixty (60) simultaneously out of the one-hundred (100) it can slot. Your entire argument along those lines about "math" is, therefore, non-sequitur.

    The ships with the most issues are the Vesta-line and "full-fledged carriers" (Atrox/Vo'quv), which have as few as five (5) and three (3) respectively after slotting all combat boff/captain/device/ship-special/core (warp or singularity) powers excluding possible trait abilities. Beyond that every ship in the game is known, from what I reviewed (of most of them), to have at least nine (9) to fifteen (15) available bindings within that limitation of forty (40) bindings, again excluding possible trait abilities. And that's really only a problem for people who use hotkeys exclusively as "clickers" can go through all sixty (60) that can be displayed simultaneously without a hitch.

    However your mentioning an increase in available buttons in the UI is in line with the general idea of how ridiculous the forty (40) "personal tray #1 and #2" binding limitation is especially given how many possible combinations of keys are possible even through standard touch typing on a generic keyboard.

    You have all been wonderful participants, please - by all means, post more so that we all may feast together.
  • shockwave85shockwave85 Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You write much but say little. Little that makes sense anyway. Stop trying to sound smart and just state clearly what you're trying to get across. You write like a teenager desperately trying to impress the adults around him. Which is to say, you write like I did 15 years ago.

    Oh, and ending your first post by preemptively calling everybody who disagrees with your brilliant vision whiners is not the best way to be taken seriously.
    ssog-maco-sig.jpg
  • dknight0001dknight0001 Member Posts: 1,542
    edited June 2013
    I may hotkey my abilities, but the icons help me see the cooldowns.

    My statement about bad maths is not so much to do with the UI, but with your statement that a T5 ship has 12 powers.

    I also like to hotkey certain weapons depending on build. Mines and Torps are bound to the mouse but the Bio Neural Warhead does not fire from fire all Torpedoes.
    I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. :confused:
    If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
    When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
  • projectfrontierprojectfrontier Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I've been away for months, time to respond!
    You write much but say little. Little that makes sense anyway. Stop trying to sound smart and just state clearly what you're trying to get across. You write like a teenager desperately trying to impress the adults around him. Which is to say, you write like I did 15 years ago.

    Oh, and ending your first post by preemptively calling everybody who disagrees with your brilliant vision whiners is not the best way to be taken seriously.

    Your entire comment is nothing but a red herring desperately trying to mask a series of widely directed abusive ad hominem remarks. I could not care less what you think about anything or anyone for that matter as clearly you're not going to be serious about game mechanics, which is the self-evident point of this thread; you're not contributing and therefore you are only disrupting forum use.
    I may hotkey my abilities, but the icons help me see the cooldowns.

    My statement about bad maths is not so much to do with the UI, but with your statement that a T5 ship has 12 powers.

    I also like to hotkey certain weapons depending on build. Mines and Torps are bound to the mouse but the Bio Neural Warhead does not fire from fire all Torpedoes.

    T5 starships have 12 boff powers, maximum. Boff powers are not captain's powers. End of story. Hotkeys are good, visible timers are nice, being able to keyboard toggle another 20 powers is not beyond Cryptic's ability to introduce to the UI THEREFORE there is no reason why:

    1) BOFF powers can be adjusted across tiers for a linear progression in total available boff powers.
    2) the power-tray UI cannot be adjusted so that 6 of 6 visible rows can have hotkey assignments.
Sign In or Register to comment.