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Turret vs Borg Kinectic Beam

playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
edited June 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Has someone made an extensive test of the kinectic beam vs mk12 turret with tact consoles? i'm trying to figure out, but is hard without at least 1 or 2 weeks of combat logs.
John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Post edited by playhard88 on

Comments

  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Personally, I'd take a turret for 2 reasons (without any hard evidence, mind you):

    - Turrets can Crit far more often, thanks to Cannon skills boosting their fire rate. This means more T4 Rom procs (and -Acc, if you're a Tac with that trait).
    - Kinetic damage only really shines when you deliver it in a big timed burst... like Torp Spread or HY, neither of which work with KCB.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Personally, I'd take a turret for 2 reasons (without any hard evidence, mind you):

    - Turrets can Crit far more often, thanks to Cannon skills boosting their fire rate. This means more T4 Rom procs (and -Acc, if you're a Tac with that trait).
    - Kinetic damage only really shines when you deliver it in a big timed burst... like Torp Spread or HY, neither of which work with KCB.

    yeah but you forget. the borg kentic beam adds +95 points to badassery.

    id take the borg beam. badassery will get you far in this game :)
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    knetic damage does approximately nothing unless its applied to hull. i cant stop loling at cruisers using the knetic cutting beam with beam arrays and other weapons that have no hope of making a hole in shields faster then the damage can be distributed away.

    its a useless weapon unless parred with front loaded damage. its also 1 less weapon applying lots of DEM or glider hits, and like some damage. the 2 piece set bonus is a few seconds of what its like to have overlap weapons power.

    once i thought about it, it was pretty apparent that this thing is about as close to useless as is possible.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    You can't compare the 2 side by side.

    You have to compare overall damage numbers.

    Cause the only reason to really run the cutting beam is the 2 piece Omega Amp.

    That should be boosting the dmg up on your other weapons more then enough to justify the trade of a turret to the cutting beam.

    I am sure if you parse the same pve run 3-4 times each one with and one with out... you will find the Omega Amp runs will be much much higher dps. +1000 power drain resist and +10 power... I have seen it stack as high as 3 on a full cannon ship... that's 3 procs in 2 seconds lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • smeagolsneakysmeagolsneaky Member Posts: 71 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I run it for the 3 part Bonus on that Set
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Cause the only reason to really run the cutting beam is the 2 piece Omega Amp.

    Pretty much this...that 2.5% chance per energy hit to +10 Weapon Power and +500 Weapon Drain Resistance.

    Some folks might think they could just run the Omega Torp and Borg Console to get the same 2pc thing, but you need to consider your build and what else is going on with your build...things that work with energy weapons, etc, etc, etc.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2013

    its a useless weapon unless parred with front loaded damage. its also 1 less weapon applying lots of DEM or glider hits, and like some damage. the 2 piece set bonus is a few seconds of what its like to have overlap weapons power.

    tetryon glider and DEM applies to the borg beam, u should re-check that.
    Cause the only reason to really run the cutting beam is the 2 piece Omega Amp.

    That should be boosting the dmg up on your other weapons more then enough to justify the trade of a turret to the cutting beam.

    I am sure if you parse the same pve run 3-4 times each one with and one with out... you will find the Omega Amp runs will be much much higher dps. +1000 power drain resist and +10 power... I have seen it stack as high as 3 on a full cannon ship... that's 3 procs in 2 seconds lol

    yep, that is what i was thinking, the benefit from the omega weapon amp. can increase the damage output of all my weapons
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I would say that 90% of the PVE matches that I have parsed, the KCB has done a higher DPS than all turrets combined. Those shield facings go down pretty quick.

    Not quite the same but maybe helpful
  • lebtronlebtron Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I would say that 90% of the PVE matches that I have parsed, the KCB has done a higher DPS than all turrets combined. Those shield facings go down pretty quick.

    Not quite the same but maybe helpful

    I use crthx3 turrets and in 90% of PVE matches the KCB has done lower DPS than even a single turret for me. Only in some STFs with a lot of unshielded targets it could outdamage one turret, but never more than this. And as most PVE missions are perfect for spread fire, the KCB looses even more.

    So it could be usefull for the set bonus, but such things are hard to measure...
  • ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited June 2013
    Beyond the set bonus, the turret has proven to have a limited 'conditional' uses where it excels:
    - unshielded targets
    - siege (again mostly unshielded)
    - nebula battles, where shields are not possible. Vault: Ensnared is the one area it's usefull.

    I've run side by side comparison with turrets and turrets win hands down. Far more flexible, and significantly more accurate on small craft. They have the added bonus of being affected both by consoles and skills.

    It's definitely a nice-to-have as opposed to a must-have.
  • afree100afree100 Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Pretty much this...that 2.5% chance per energy hit to +10 Weapon Power and +500 Weapon Drain Resistance.

    Some folks might think they could just run the Omega Torp and Borg Console to get the same 2pc thing, but you need to consider your build and what else is going on with your build...things that work with energy weapons, etc, etc, etc.

    Yep, if you are in an escort it is a requirement pretty much because of this. Although if you happen to get someones shields down that cutting beam will do quite a bit, esp since it has a significant delay (then again that can also be a bad thing due to shield regen). It's very circumstancal, esp with timing. If a crusier setup is lacking weapons power then definatly worth looking into with that (for PvE at least).
    Starfleet M.A.C.O. KDF Honor Guard
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited June 2013
    I tested my KCB versus my MK XII purple turret (with [crtd]x3). With 5 purple MK XII tactical consoles, the KCB is slightly lower DPS than my DHCs unbuffed. With CRF3, my turrets come out slightly ahead of my KCB.

    I fired both at my target shielded and unshielded.

    Shielded, with no buffs, the KCB did almost as well as my turret.

    Unshielded, with no buffs, the KCB did about twice as much as my turret.

    I still use the KCB for the 2-set bonus.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I am sure if you parse the same pve run 3-4 times each one with and one with out... you will find the Omega Amp runs will be much much higher dps. +1000 power drain resist and +10 power... I have seen it stack as high as 3 on a full cannon ship... that's 3 procs in 2 seconds lol

    My personal record is five stacks. I've only seen it happen twice though.
    playhard88 wrote: »
    tetryon glider and DEM applies to the borg beam, u should re-check that.

    The KCB will proc anything that is attached to an energy weapon. Be it doffs, set bonuses, consoles or anything else.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    playhard88 wrote: »
    tetryon glider and DEM applies to the borg beam, u should re-check that.

    providing lots of hits. it does not rate of fire nearly as well.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I've personally found the KCB to have a unique extra usage:

    It's a great way of finding your target in the middle of a fire fight. It's a nice, red line right to your target (as long as you don't lose target lock of course).
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    also, the KCB is golden against projectiles. Very useful for shooting torps and such
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Aceton Assims to... it kills those things nicely.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I've personally found the KCB to have a unique extra usage:

    It's a great way of finding your target in the middle of a fire fight. It's a nice, red line right to your target (as long as you don't lose target lock of course).


    That's why I like it. In a big furball, it is like a laser pointer of doom.
    _________________________________________________
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    Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
  • nandospcnandospc Member Posts: 1,260 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Using ACT with new pvp plugin, the dps of kcb and turrets is similar. I just use it on my bugship with the borg console for the Omega Weapon Amplifier bonus;)
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    praxi5 wrote: »
    Personally, I'd take a turret for 2 reasons (without any hard evidence, mind you):

    - Turrets can Crit far more often, thanks to Cannon skills boosting their fire rate. This means more T4 Rom procs (and -Acc, if you're a Tac with that trait).
    - Kinetic damage only really shines when you deliver it in a big timed burst... like Torp Spread or HY, neither of which work with KCB.


    i used to argue with myself over this,,but i choose turret,,as kinetic does barely any damage to shields,,(yes i know turrets do very little damage) however they fire more often as well increase your chance to get your proc off.
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    BTW (sry to hijack thread)

    but the tier 2 nukara when it says "directed energy" does that mean only beams? Or does that work for cannons too?
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~west/applets/binomialdemo.html

    That is what it says it is. A binomial calculator. It's very useful for seeing how likely it is for something to happen over a given number of events. This is important information to have as understanding this at a fundamental level makes most every event in PVP much easier to grasp.

    A little messing about with that will show you that the difference one turret makes as far as outcomes over events is so close to zero as not to matter. For some outcomes that cause immunity on the target to stacking effects you could easily argue that further fire of any kind is more likely to cause a net loss because of defensive procs.

    So you need to decide if proccing a heal or a placate because you plink plink plinked away with a turret OR the pulse damage of the cutting beam, is worth what is a minor increase in damage done. For an escort that is poorly equipped to deal with that you would say likely not. For a cruiser or a sci that may be a different answer but you need to appreciate all facets of what the actions you take can have on the overall combat both positive (I did damage!) and negative (I procced a placate!).

    Most importantly, you need to be able to decide if you should be firing at all. If something won't be dying within ten seconds of being fired on you should leave it alone. There's no discussion based on "well if the shields aren't down kinetic damage blows". The plan is you bring the shields down, one way or the other, and then all your fire gets MUCH better and you win. That's the plan.

    So if your plan was "I'm going to use subsystem target shields and then my KCB is sheer balls for 5 seconds and some torps and GG" ok well there's a plan. If you're in an escort and you know how trivial a turret is to just about anyone, but that a KCB is just a ***** on rommie or bop hulls sure that's a plan as well.

    Cheers and have fun with the calculator.
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  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    The Borg Cutting Beam is a PVE weapon .
    It's a good PVE weapon (especially if used with the Borg Console) , but it's not for PVP .
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    The Borg Cutting Beam is a PVE weapon .
    It's a good PVE weapon (especially if used with the Borg Console) , but it's not for PVP .

    and that is based on what? my post is about numbers, no about assumptions. The lastest test i been doing with the cutting beam show me that is quite effective.
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    playhard88 wrote: »
    and that is based on what? my post is about numbers, no about assumptions. The lastest test i been doing with the cutting beam show me that is quite effective.

    The cutting beam is effective against slow moving targets that you can strip their shields off for a reasonabe amount of time .
    Say ... Cubes in STF's .

    It's not effective against fast maneuvering opponents , speed tankers or shield tankers .
    Say Tacs or Sci in PVP .

    It's not that it does not have DPS .
    It's about hitting raw hull long enough time that it matters .
    Hell , with the EPTE Probes in the ISE STF, even there I can see the Cutting beam shoot off into one direction , while my target is not there anymore .
    And that's PVE .
    In PVP it can be out maneuvered , or out defended .

    But hey , you like it , it's good for you , go for it .
    I like it too , it's just not good for me in PVP . :)
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Again... if you are looking at dmg from the beam you are doing it wrong.

    The beam doesn't matter... it could do COMPLETELY nothing ... and just waste the slot.

    As long as it still enabled the Omega Amp.... it would be increasing your spike dmg by a massive amount.

    Anyone not running a cutting beam is plain simple.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    The cutting beam is effective against slow moving targets that you can strip their shields off for a reasonabe amount of time .
    Say ... Cubes in STF's .

    It's not effective against fast maneuvering opponents , speed tankers or shield tankers .
    Say Tacs or Sci in PVP .
    )

    As i said, all assumptions. Play some matches with it, and check the results with the combat log parser, for example the acc of the kinectic beam is around 85% in pvp, while my turret accx3 is around 89%
    John Sheridan@playhard88 - FED Tactical
    Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
    K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
    Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
  • captainpanixcaptainpanix Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I've parsed this several times and KCB always beats a single XII turret.
  • praxi5praxi5 Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    maximus614 wrote: »
    BTW (sry to hijack thread)

    but the tier 2 nukara when it says "directed energy" does that mean only beams? Or does that work for cannons too?

    Cannons work as well.

    All types of Cannons of Beams are Directed Energy.
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