I've never done PVP yet, too busy with other stuff, so I honestly haven't given it too much thought.
I think the simlpe solution to the JHAS is when you find yourself in a match with one, everyone on your team leaves the match. If enough people start doing that, making it clear they won't play with JHAS players, Crytic will finally act or people will stop PVPing with JHAS because they'll learn that they just end up playing with themselves.
Right now I see no reason to PVP, except to try it once out of curiosity.
I'm doing Romulan Reputation, but that's mostly because I want to unlock the Reman race and the Reman ship skins that come with it, and because I enjoy Azure Nebula and the Vault mission.
I don't find the Omega marks missions fun and have always failed them, so I've only dipped my toe into Omega Rep, I really am not interested in any of the prizes it offers.
I may start the Tholian rep for the crystal sword I've heard about. Plus I can play the missions I already like.
Honestly I don't find it repetetive, but I also don't grind Azure 40 times a day, I think at most I've done 4 in one day, usually less.
Of course I don't play 10 different alts. I have my primary, General Susher, and my Fed Commander Rixxx which I haven't played since first contact day. I may start doing more Doff missions with him.
When I complete Rom Rep 5 I'll create a Reman called Scro with the goal of getting the warbird that splits into two and use reman ship material on it, maybe get the device slot scorpian fighters to go with it.
Just going off of the Topic Name, I'll post my response:
Reputation is recommended, but not essential. You can infact play the game, in all it's facets, without doing a single Reputation Event or maxing out the Reputation system. You can buy ALL the equipment you need from the Dilithium Store (or redoing Missions, if that strikes your fancy).
Put simply, no one forces you to play the Reputation system.
Original Join Date: January 2010 Original Name: -Gen-Alaris Days Subscribed: 1211 (As of May 26, 2013)
There is nothing to compete for, so what does it matter if you're competitive?
PvP right now is a vanity thing for people who have heaped up the rewards of playing already.
It's just an idle pastime with no competitive value, because you can't win or lose anything doing it.
It's like playing poker with no betting.
For fun. People like to have a change of pace and doing PvP is that change of pace. Problem is the fun factor of PvP just keeps getting worse because it is harder to be competitive. Their is no fun when your odds of winning is low because the other side has multiple Jem'Hadar attack ships and other stuff that average players will have a very hard time getting.
Just because something does not have high stakes does not mean their is no competitive value.
Why should you be competitive in PvP with people who do more work than you?
Win!
Yes, you wanna be great in PvP you gotta put in the time like anyone else. Otherwise realize you will be weaker in PvP and try to support your teammates instead of trying to take on a 3v1 and dying instantly.
I suspect that a lot of the people complaining about PVP in this thread have never actually tried it.
I do not have any Tholian rep. I finished Romulan rep yesterday. I do not have level V Omega rep.
I'm using unremarkable mk XI guns and XI blue consoles.
Despite what the OP maintains is an impossible and un-winnable situation, I am still competent in PvP.
Maybe you should stop saying it's the gear/reputation/the sun was in your eyes, and accept responsibility for your own ineptitude. I am being quite serious: if you'd like to stop being terrible at anything the first step is to acknowledge that you're bad at it.
Until you do that, it won't matter when you do get all the rep, gear and ships you maintain are the only route to victory: you'll still die horribly to an Excelsior flown by someone competent.
None of the reputations require massive grinding to get, specially during marks bonus hours. Getting rep gear is a grind, but leveling up takes 1 event a day most of the time. For RMs, a couple of elder Epohhs and you're set to get to tier 5. OMs are just plain easy to accumulate. Nukara ones suck a bit more, but you just run a couple of CE and you're set for the day.
The only reason the PvP-community is so vocal about every game change/addition is because none of these have any impact on PvE. PvE is so easy in this game you could run it with white gear only and do a decent job, provided that you have chosen a coherent BOff layout (which has far more impact than the color/MK of your equipment). Rep gear and traits are entirely unnecessary to get through this game's PvE content.
In PvP many of these additions however have immediatly a huge impact. Romulan rep IV for example makes absolutely no difference in PvE, but is plain annoying in PvP, escpecially when combined with the Honor Guard Shield/Adapted Maco Shield. The dreaded Bug ship only excels in PvP because it has the perfect combination of firepower and turnrate. The latter however is almost redundant for PvE as it's mostly stand and shoot against slow or immobile enemies. Heck, you can even equip a space whale with cannons and do a good job, a build people would laugh about in PvP because it would fail miserably. Same goes for pets. Petspam has no noticable effect in PvE apart from saving some time in Elite STFs. They are just a plain increase in DPS. In PvP tractorbeams, chroniton torps and now tetryonclouds change everything. They are annoying as hell as you get constantly bombarded by them. Also the combined spam of AoEs from both players and pets has become so bad it completely ruins FPS even on decent computers. The game itself can't handle all this spam (noticable on warpplasma which often stays invisible until a playership crashes into it) yet Cryptic releases more of it, infuriating the PvP playerbase over and over again.
As mentioned above the solution for the boredom from "Rep grind" and repeating events over and over is MORE events.
More ACCESSIBLEPVE content. Also, more content which would be doable ALONE, or in small groups of 2,3 people. Nukara was a GOOD START. Crossfaction and using Zone chat and you are good to go.
You get to interact with other people and accomplish something.
Let's face it. STO is not WOW and there are issues with queues starting. Also on the fed side.
EVERYTHING CROSS FACTION and everything with a choice of marks, or awarding one type of marks + a small amount of fleet marks.
give us UNIQUE rewards for repeating/optionals of events. this could be a title, a pet, something for the ready room,
unique weapon design or costume pieces.
WOW had (in the time i played - till 2009) like 8 high lvl 5 man events, 3 top lvl 10-20 raids, 4 reputations, like 50 low lvl events to repeat and regrind, events, PVP arenas and mass PVP zones you could just join.
We got (KDF side) three 5 man PVE queues which DO actually start.
It is too bad, cause i have never had the chance to complete big dig with ANY of my KDF toons. The same for breaking the planet.
Reprogram these! Make ZONES out of it where anybody can just join for some 3-5 missions same as Nukara.
PVP balance?
try this:
- BUFF SCI & ENGI space abilities, buff them hard. that is all.
- there should be NO ships with 5 turnrate.
- give us more maps with more objectives.
In PvP tractorbeams, chroniton torps and now tetryonclouds change everything. They are annoying as hell as you get constantly bombarded by them. Also the combined spam of AoEs from both players and pets has become so bad it completely ruins FPS even on decent computers. The game itself can't handle all this spam (noticable on warpplasma which often stays invisible until a playership crashes into it) yet Cryptic releases more of it, infuriating the PvP playerbase over and over again.
There is nothing to compete for, so what does it matter if you're competitive?
This line of thinking is why PvP in MMOs tend to end up irrelevant and none functional. I believe you'd be more content on a treadmill as a hamster just running in place. The reward should come from satisfaction of beating your enemy on even terms, not from super rare items, or other bollocks.
Tangible rewards for winning, doesn't work in instanced PvP arenas. It worked on Rallos/Vallon/Tallon because we fought over the right to camp rare monsters/fight in XP areas, back when leveling took months at a time with severe XP penalties for dying. Different era of gaming, different game design.
"Significant" gear grinds doesn't fit in PvP inside an MMORPG, it extends the period for new players before they can be competitive, and depending on the severity of the benefits creates splits in the middle vs the top as well, SWTOR was the latest victim of that.
You quoted Rallos Zek, (Vallon Zek here), but back during Kunark and Velius item upgrades weren't as impactful as they became later when mudflation kicked in and items had to come with massive broad spectrum stat increases.
Ah who are we kidding? To be competitive in PvP it's not about VR Gear, rep passives or anything else.
It's about the keyboard and mouse you are using. If you've got one of the expensive gaming keyboards (or can virtualise one) You and your team win.
There is also the argument that PvP means nothing anyway. I get my 1440 dil for showing up whether I blow up 15 times or I make kills 15 times. It makes no real difference to anyone really.
Add to that it's the same 3 maps over and over, and if it's solar wind spiralling upward literally ad nauseam.
PvP is optional, if you don't want to do it/spec for it. Don't bother. This isn't EvE, WoW or Lineage where you'd be stupid not to. That's the bottom line. People that want to be competitive and be the very best will do all the grinding and purchasing needed to get there regardless, that's what gamers do.
Sad fact is that every lock box they release is geared toward "improving" PvP and making people more powerful so the genie is well and truly out of the bottle on this one, so really the only answer is keep up or keep away.
Yes! Or what would be good - persistent exploration campaigns for teams or fleets. More things to do! Half of the Doff assignment chains would make amazing missions.
To be honest, PvP is only part of a large problem with the game that stems from Cryptic's unwillingness to create new and unique endgame content which does not involve repeating the same thing over and over again.
PvP Fleets, SoB, Sad Pandas, Turkish RP whatever and House of Beautiful Orions are also to blame for sapping all the fun out of PvP. These people take it far to seriously and will even resort to underhanded measures just to win a PvP match, which was pointed out is utterly pointless. For example "House of Beautiful Orions" will resort to spawn camping Federation spawn with a full team in Capture and Hold, if the Federation loses two players due to bugs and will keep continually destroying their ships. I watched it on my Romulan and was appalled at their tactics.
I would expect some Fleets to have some concept of honor when fighting against Pugs or smaller Fleets but NO.... lets just get out our multi-million JHAS and pound everything from existence. It does make me laugh, one of my Fleet members was in House of Beautiful Orions on his Klingon and he told me that the lengths that these people go to are verging on somewhat sad and pathetic.
You would expect a Fleet to have a decent leadership and maybe try and remain competitive but also fair. My Fleet for example have some very simple rules when it comes to playing with pugs to remain competitive and we also prefer to drydock lockbox ships in favor of more balanced ships.
Other Fleets KNOW that these vessels are unbalanced but still use them in pugs, despite some of them being BANNED from their own little PvP tournament thing that people might have heard off. So its one rule for one and one for another.
This is why large PvP fleets make me laugh, they verge on the truely sad and desperate, not mention have a real obsessive compulsive drive if they have to win every time at a pointless game by using OP stuff.
So yeah, its not just Cryptic, its a vast quantity of players too. Cryptic makes the stuff, these Fleets use them... and then condone it so its never going to change, because Cryptic is making profit off these idiots.
The only reason the PvP-community is so vocal about every game change/addition is because none of these have any impact on PvE. PvE is so easy in this game you could run it with white gear only and do a decent job, provided that you have chosen a coherent BOff layout (which has far more impact than the color/MK of your equipment). Rep gear and traits are entirely unnecessary to get through this game's PvE content.
In PvP many of these additions however have immediatly a huge impact. Romulan rep IV for example makes absolutely no difference in PvE, but is plain annoying in PvP, escpecially when combined with the Honor Guard Shield/Adapted Maco Shield. The dreaded Bug ship only excels in PvP because it has the perfect combination of firepower and turnrate. The latter however is almost redundant for PvE as it's mostly stand and shoot against slow or immobile enemies. Heck, you can even equip a space whale with cannons and do a good job, a build people would laugh about in PvP because it would fail miserably. Same goes for pets. Petspam has no noticable effect in PvE apart from saving some time in Elite STFs. They are just a plain increase in DPS. In PvP tractorbeams, chroniton torps and now tetryonclouds change everything. They are annoying as hell as you get constantly bombarded by them. Also the combined spam of AoEs from both players and pets has become so bad it completely ruins FPS even on decent computers. The game itself can't handle all this spam (noticable on warpplasma which often stays invisible until a playership crashes into it) yet Cryptic releases more of it, infuriating the PvP playerbase over and over again.
I am not specifically targeting this poster, i am just using this as an example of common misconceptions i feel are apparent about this game STO.
Now i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this game is a PVE based game. Have you noticed that the menu selection for 'pvp queues' is hidden away in the "not much use" drop down? While PVE queue has its own icon? PVP is clearly a sideline and if you think otherwise then you are kidding yourself. What makes me laugh is that PVPer's think they have something special over people that don't take an interest in PVP simply because it is more team orientated.
Believe it or not a lot of people that play this game only want to PVE, and like just flying round zerging stuff. Dont get me wrong im not entirely happy with the PVE, I would like some more challenging and maybe longer PVE events but thats just me.
Just because YOU like pvp on STO, and you and your little band of pvp elitist heroes all walk round thinking your **** don't stink because you go into premades and wipe out teams of randoms, then thats personal choice. Now if i want to PVP, i go to a real PVP game like Battlefield 3. Thats my personal choice. But i dont try and make out this game isnt a PVE game and try to alter the way the rewards and grinding work for the majority of people who play that only want to PVE, just because it doesnt fit into my plans of PVP. If you want the abilities that the reputation system brings then you have to grind for them, much the same way that if i want to use those abilities for PVE, i also have to grind for them.
What do you want a free hand out for pvper's because they think they dont have to put any work in? Just hit L50 and you are golden? As i said if you think its unbalanced, go play pvp on a game based around pvp.
With regards to running azure nebula 30 times a day etc as someone already mentioned, then yeah i agree the reward system could use some flexibility so people can pick more of the PVE events they like and have rewards for those that are actually useful. Rather than farming the same one until they cant stand it. For instance, i really enjoy the large battle type PVE scenarios like SB24 and the fleet actions. But fleet marks are really not much use to me, so i only play these for fun, yet i need another 80000 Tholian, Romulan and Omega reputation points so then i am wasting my own time as i am not earning marks for those reps that i could be to enable me to do the projects faster. Its like a giant misallocation of resources. It doesnt help that the only events that give Nukara marks are hideously boring.
So in conclusion, my points are:
A) PVPer's you are no more special than any PVEer, so please stop and think for a moment before trying to change the way the game works so you dont have to do any PVE. It is a PVE game whether you like it or not.
If any developer happened to feel bored while fixing all the bugs that are currently running around the game, and happens to read this post: Please make reward marks for PVE events more selectable for ANY AND ALL of the events rather than specific and boring ones. Either that or give us some new and interesting PVE and elite STF challenges. PLEASE.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
The problem with your post, is that you've just turned it into a flame of PvP fleets and people that for whatever reason have put more time and effort into PvP than you.
I respect your right, not to have to PvP but if people want to put effort, money and time into something that's their business and calling them sad and pathetic weakens your position.
The tournament rules were set by one person and a lot of those fleets didn't take part for that reason and the problem about outlawing some skills and not others is that it doesn't actually create balance, you just tie peoples hands and remove sometimes legitimate strategies.
If you want to only use non lockbox ships, then that's up to you but banning them outright isn't the way forward to improving gameplay and for the record, I've PvP'd with a number of the fleets you've listed and they can be beaten and do have weaknesses, it's just harder because they have a lot of practice.
I wouldn't expect my local football team to be able to go up against Manchester United, but that doesn't mean I can't play a game and have fun or take a leaf out of their training manual so that we can become more skilled in what we do.
There is no real PvP in STO, there is play-pretend PvP, so who cares at all what happens in it?
There are no stakes, you can't win or lose anything by participating, it's nothing at all.
If there was real PvP, where the victor took something away from the loser, then "balance" and all that nonsense would matter, because there would be something at stake.
But whining because you can't make some other player's ship blow up and then reappear 30 seconds later intact, and with all its equipment still onboard, is an embarrassment.
There is a time to speak and a time to keep silent. With all the problems that plague STO, when it comes time to talk about the so-called "pvp," it is unequivocally time to keep silent.
Also just wanted to add. Above post very well said.
This guy = legend.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
Why should you be competitive in PvP with people who do more work than you?
An easy question to answer. PvP should be about skill and knowledge of game mechanics, not about gear or other crud, whether it comes from P2W purchases or grinding.
Which is not 'work', BTW. If you spend time learning the game and developing skills, that is 'work' in a meaningful sense.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
An easy question to answer. PvP should be about skill and knowledge of game mechanics, not about gear or other crud, whether it comes from P2W purchases or grinding.
Which is not 'work', BTW. If you spend time learning the game and developing skills, that is 'work' in a meaningful sense.
I would like to "practice" PvP to be good at it. Rep only introduces some insane PvP affecting proc based mechanics for taggin NPC bunnies.
Seeing my new 0-rep, White Mk X romulan toon competing with fully rep geared fed n klinks (well theoretically at least, not that KvK popped for me once sine LoR) has reminded me just of how ill convieved this whole rep thing is again. The skill gap is bridged by things outside the players control, without a means for tactical deployment. Where is the PvP in that?? The combination of proc based, and only obtainable via PvE without so much as a hint of reflection on how these procs affect pvp, has turned STO's PvP into the sad state of lolspace that we are in now.
Skill still matters but taggin friggin bunnies doesn't enter into it. If all REP SKills were disabled on PvP maps i would not miss them one second.
Ideally, since PvP is available at level 11 (IIRC) people should be practicing at lower levels, and not just coming to it at level 50 after having completed everything else in game.
Since the PvP queues are almost non existent at low levels this creates a vicious circle; you can't possibly learn about the basics since you've only had PvE up until 50. Once you get there, it's relearn everything and regrind new equipment.
If the PvE content was more about skill and countering some of the base elements found in PvP, people wouldn't be so frightened of it. Instead you can rolfstomp even the supposed hardest material in game, with a sub par team, sub par gear and an under-levelled ship. So the threshold of expectation is very high when you take this into consideration.
Plus, I have noticed with increasing frequency people coming into PvP with ship injuries that they probably obtained from multiple deaths in Elite STFs, since they don't make that much of a difference in PvE it's no wonder people do something so unthinkably stupid in PvP.
I am not specifically targeting this poster, i am just using this as an example of common misconceptions i feel are apparent about this game STO.
Now i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this game is a PVE based game. Have you noticed that the menu selection for 'pvp queues' is hidden away in the "not much use" drop down? While PVE queue has its own icon? PVP is clearly a sideline and if you think otherwise then you are kidding yourself. What makes me laugh is that PVPer's think they have something special over people that don't take an interest in PVP simply because it is more team orientated.
Believe it or not a lot of people that play this game only want to PVE, and like just flying round zerging stuff. Dont get me wrong im not entirely happy with the PVE, I would like some more challenging and maybe longer PVE events but thats just me.
Just because YOU like pvp on STO, and you and your little band of pvp elitist heroes all walk round thinking your **** don't stink because you go into premades and wipe out teams of randoms, then thats personal choice. Now if i want to PVP, i go to a real PVP game like Battlefield 3. Thats my personal choice. But i dont try and make out this game isnt a PVE game and try to alter the way the rewards and grinding work for the majority of people who play that only want to PVE, just because it doesnt fit into my plans of PVP. If you want the abilities that the reputation system brings then you have to grind for them, much the same way that if i want to use those abilities for PVE, i also have to grind for them.
What do you want a free hand out for pvper's because they think they dont have to put any work in? Just hit L50 and you are golden? As i said if you think its unbalanced, go play pvp on a game based around pvp.
With regards to running azure nebula 30 times a day etc as someone already mentioned, then yeah i agree the reward system could use some flexibility so people can pick more of the PVE events they like and have rewards for those that are actually useful. Rather than farming the same one until they cant stand it. For instance, i really enjoy the large battle type PVE scenarios like SB24 and the fleet actions. But fleet marks are really not much use to me, so i only play these for fun, yet i need another 80000 Tholian, Romulan and Omega reputation points so then i am wasting my own time as i am not earning marks for those reps that i could be to enable me to do the projects faster. Its like a giant misallocation of resources. It doesnt help that the only events that give Nukara marks are hideously boring.
So in conclusion, my points are:
A) PVPer's you are no more special than any PVEer, so please stop and think for a moment before trying to change the way the game works so you dont have to do any PVE. It is a PVE game whether you like it or not.
If any developer happened to feel bored while fixing all the bugs that are currently running around the game, and happens to read this post: Please make reward marks for PVE events more selectable for ANY AND ALL of the events rather than specific and boring ones. Either that or give us some new and interesting PVE and elite STF challenges. PLEASE.
Wow. Calm down. If I had known someone would throw a giant wall of text at me full of irrational accusations just because I tried to explain the PvPers position in this context I would have probably stayed away from this topic.
You are right with your assumption that only a small percentage of STO's playerbase logs into PvP. It's a small and dedicated minority. Like the rest of the playerbase we have our equal share of pricks and self-proclaimed 'pro's' who constantly look down on other players. As my post should have shown you if you read it more carefully I wasn't looking down on anyone nor do I see anyone else here doing that. I also don't feel entitled to any special treatment, so stop these weird accusations. No need to start a one-man-sh1tstorm because of ONE post. I just tried to explain that even minor changes in gameplay can ruin the experience of an entire group here. Reputation traits and carrier pets for example will never make any difference in STO's PvE missions apart from making players finish them in less time than usual. They will never affect PvE in a considerable way. For PvPers however they can be gamebreaking. I'm not arguing for a position that Cryptic should exclusively listen to PvPers. I simply want them to try a middle road so that the entire playerbase is pleased. New stuff for everyone which also doesn't make an entire gamemode (temporarily) unplayable. However, as many others, I have a feeling that they seldom test their new stuff before release and simply throw them into the game, no matter how broken they are. For PvPers this often becomes a question of 'can I still PvP or should I stay away from it due to bugs and exploits?', something people who only do PvE missions seldom encounter.
And that's how it should remain. I'm all for PvP getting a revamp as long as it's revamped under the understanding that it's optional, not mandatory.
That's why such a revamp has never happened nor will it ever happen. Why are the Romulan ships (on paper at least) and Boffs as good as they are? Cryptic wants to make sure you can't simply sidestep them. Because for the game to merely survive and continue they have ot make sure that everything that's put out is in some way monetized. Can you Imagine how a PvP revamp would get monetized? It'd be a PR nightmare for them.
Now i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this game is a PVE based game. Have you noticed that the menu selection for 'pvp queues' is hidden away in the "not much use" drop down? While PVE queue has its own icon? PVP is clearly a sideline and if you think otherwise then you are kidding yourself. What makes me laugh is that PVPer's think they have something special over people that don't take an interest in PVP simply because it is more team orientated.
I'm not even sure its a PvE based game either, the content is largely so repetitive and infuriatingly easy and boring that I'm not sure they have anyone on staff capable of designing decent encounters. All they seem capable of is "cakewalk press a button" or "one shots for lolz". What kind of PvE game is like that? That almost sounds like the minor PvE component of a PvP focused game!
I think we just dancing around the issue that Cryptic has such convoluted TRIBBLE that they've tried to shove into the game for profit, its essentially broken PvP and made it very exclusive to the only rich... I agree that there needs to be a purpose to PvP too but we need to fix the underlying problems with that first.
Pay 2 Win or Grind to Win... that's the nature of this beast we know of as STO when it comes to PvP. However, it's pretty much the same way in most other PvE/PvP MMOs.
If you want to thump your chest and say "Come at me bro" in a PvP zone, that is your right. Just be prepared to shell out some serious money or spend a lot of time grinding to be one of the best at it.
-AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- ProjectPhoenix Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
I am not specifically targeting this poster, i am just using this as an example of common misconceptions i feel are apparent about this game STO.
Now i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this game is a PVE based game. Have you noticed that the menu selection for 'pvp queues' is hidden away in the "not much use" drop down? While PVE queue has its own icon? PVP is clearly a sideline and if you think otherwise then you are kidding yourself. What makes me laugh is that PVPer's think they have something special over people that don't take an interest in PVP simply because it is more team orientated.
Believe it or not a lot of people that play this game only want to PVE, and like just flying round zerging stuff. Dont get me wrong im not entirely happy with the PVE, I would like some more challenging and maybe longer PVE events but thats just me.
Just because YOU like pvp on STO, and you and your little band of pvp elitist heroes all walk round thinking your **** don't stink because you go into premades and wipe out teams of randoms, then thats personal choice. Now if i want to PVP, i go to a real PVP game like Battlefield 3. Thats my personal choice. But i dont try and make out this game isnt a PVE game and try to alter the way the rewards and grinding work for the majority of people who play that only want to PVE, just because it doesnt fit into my plans of PVP. If you want the abilities that the reputation system brings then you have to grind for them, much the same way that if i want to use those abilities for PVE, i also have to grind for them.
What do you want a free hand out for pvper's because they think they dont have to put any work in? Just hit L50 and you are golden? As i said if you think its unbalanced, go play pvp on a game based around pvp.
With regards to running azure nebula 30 times a day etc as someone already mentioned, then yeah i agree the reward system could use some flexibility so people can pick more of the PVE events they like and have rewards for those that are actually useful. Rather than farming the same one until they cant stand it. For instance, i really enjoy the large battle type PVE scenarios like SB24 and the fleet actions. But fleet marks are really not much use to me, so i only play these for fun, yet i need another 80000 Tholian, Romulan and Omega reputation points so then i am wasting my own time as i am not earning marks for those reps that i could be to enable me to do the projects faster. Its like a giant misallocation of resources. It doesnt help that the only events that give Nukara marks are hideously boring.
So in conclusion, my points are:
A) PVPer's you are no more special than any PVEer, so please stop and think for a moment before trying to change the way the game works so you dont have to do any PVE. It is a PVE game whether you like it or not.
If any developer happened to feel bored while fixing all the bugs that are currently running around the game, and happens to read this post: Please make reward marks for PVE events more selectable for ANY AND ALL of the events rather than specific and boring ones. Either that or give us some new and interesting PVE and elite STF challenges. PLEASE.
As i said at the start of my post i wasnt targeting specifically your post. I was using it as an example of common gripes.
The bottom line is this is a PVE based game and to change things to make it 'middle' road would be robbing the majority, who play PVE.
you mention pets only speed up PVE? Well thats the point seeing as most have timers of some kind and more speed = faster grind.
I wasnt starting a ****storm, i am writing a statement i feel is true in my own opinion.
Ill say it again so there is no confusion. Star trek online is a PVE game. 'Balancing' PVP by changing some of the PVE stuff would lessen some people's enjoyment, and seeing as their is currently a lot of grind....that enjoyment has to be nourished whereever it is found.
And for people that say it is a cakewalk. Yes it can be a cakewalk in the right group of players. But you forget, that group of players takes for granted that for the months/years they have been playing the game they have turned themselves into STO equivalents of Liam Neeson from taken. Which results in cakewalk. This happens in all MMO at some point unless they bring in some kind of 'heroic' mode.
Newer and more mentally challenged people are maybe not so competent. Sometimes this brings unanticipated enjoyment into the PVE. Such as mine trap half your distrcit squad going the wrong way or elite cure space having not 1 but 2 cruisers with 8 turrets. (this really has happened to me)
The challenge in PVE comes, and will always come from the people you group with and the experience that group has in the PVE content. Its no different to any other MMO. The REAL problem lies in the fact there is no new elite style STF PVE, and hasnt been for quite some time.
Ill finish on this. If you had run each elite STF hundreds of times, which most of us have, and it wasnt a cakewalk, then i would be concerned. Elite hive space not included.
" Experience is a hard mistress, she gives the tests first, and the lessons after... "
I think we just dancing around the issue that Cryptic has such convoluted TRIBBLE that they've tried to shove into the game for profit, its essentially broken PvP and made it very exclusive to the only rich... I agree that there needs to be a purpose to PvP too but we need to fix the underlying problems with that first.
Or we could just abandon PvP altogether, and allow Cryptic to focus on fixing bugs, releasing new content - ships, species, outfits, missions and factions. Just my opinion, though.
[...]For example "House of Beautiful Orions" will resort to spawn camping Federation spawn with a full team in Capture and Hold, if the Federation loses two players due to bugs and will keep continually destroying their ships. I watched it on my Romulan and was appalled at their tactics.
I would expect some Fleets to have some concept of honor when fighting against Pugs or smaller Fleets but NO.... lets just get out our multi-million JHAS and pound everything from existence. [...]
So yeah, its not just Cryptic, its a vast quantity of players too. Cryptic makes the stuff, these Fleets use them... and then condone it so its never going to change, because Cryptic is making profit off these idiots.
Much as I agree with what you're saying, there is a fundamental issue - No-one will give up their game-winning build for "honor". Frankly, why would they? At the end of the day, when HoBO is done in their PvP match, they've won. Since there's no caveat that says "play fairly" in the game rules, they've won fair and square. Nothing else matters to them.
Furthermore, how is their tactics appauling? Are you suggesting the winning side in a PvP match should be thinking "Man, we're owning these guys. We should back off, and give them a chance."
If the problem lies with the playerbase, that's one box you don't want to open. You might be able to change Cryptic, but you will never change the way the playerbase acts. That's just fighting a losing battle.
You're just a machine. And machines can be broken.
Comments
I think the simlpe solution to the JHAS is when you find yourself in a match with one, everyone on your team leaves the match. If enough people start doing that, making it clear they won't play with JHAS players, Crytic will finally act or people will stop PVPing with JHAS because they'll learn that they just end up playing with themselves.
Right now I see no reason to PVP, except to try it once out of curiosity.
I'm doing Romulan Reputation, but that's mostly because I want to unlock the Reman race and the Reman ship skins that come with it, and because I enjoy Azure Nebula and the Vault mission.
I don't find the Omega marks missions fun and have always failed them, so I've only dipped my toe into Omega Rep, I really am not interested in any of the prizes it offers.
I may start the Tholian rep for the crystal sword I've heard about. Plus I can play the missions I already like.
Honestly I don't find it repetetive, but I also don't grind Azure 40 times a day, I think at most I've done 4 in one day, usually less.
Of course I don't play 10 different alts. I have my primary, General Susher, and my Fed Commander Rixxx which I haven't played since first contact day. I may start doing more Doff missions with him.
When I complete Rom Rep 5 I'll create a Reman called Scro with the goal of getting the warbird that splits into two and use reman ship material on it, maybe get the device slot scorpian fighters to go with it.
Reputation is recommended, but not essential. You can infact play the game, in all it's facets, without doing a single Reputation Event or maxing out the Reputation system. You can buy ALL the equipment you need from the Dilithium Store (or redoing Missions, if that strikes your fancy).
Put simply, no one forces you to play the Reputation system.
Original Name: -Gen-Alaris
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For fun. People like to have a change of pace and doing PvP is that change of pace. Problem is the fun factor of PvP just keeps getting worse because it is harder to be competitive. Their is no fun when your odds of winning is low because the other side has multiple Jem'Hadar attack ships and other stuff that average players will have a very hard time getting.
Just because something does not have high stakes does not mean their is no competitive value.
Win!
Yes, you wanna be great in PvP you gotta put in the time like anyone else. Otherwise realize you will be weaker in PvP and try to support your teammates instead of trying to take on a 3v1 and dying instantly.
Who said anything about gear = competency?
You might try reading the thread. We'll wait for you.
No one's said gear = competency. People have basically said gear scales positively with how competitive one can be.
You do know what competency means, right?
dunno why that module wasnt just left in assimilation mission.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
In PvP many of these additions however have immediatly a huge impact. Romulan rep IV for example makes absolutely no difference in PvE, but is plain annoying in PvP, escpecially when combined with the Honor Guard Shield/Adapted Maco Shield. The dreaded Bug ship only excels in PvP because it has the perfect combination of firepower and turnrate. The latter however is almost redundant for PvE as it's mostly stand and shoot against slow or immobile enemies. Heck, you can even equip a space whale with cannons and do a good job, a build people would laugh about in PvP because it would fail miserably. Same goes for pets. Petspam has no noticable effect in PvE apart from saving some time in Elite STFs. They are just a plain increase in DPS. In PvP tractorbeams, chroniton torps and now tetryonclouds change everything. They are annoying as hell as you get constantly bombarded by them. Also the combined spam of AoEs from both players and pets has become so bad it completely ruins FPS even on decent computers. The game itself can't handle all this spam (noticable on warpplasma which often stays invisible until a playership crashes into it) yet Cryptic releases more of it, infuriating the PvP playerbase over and over again.
More ACCESSIBLE PVE content. Also, more content which would be doable ALONE, or in small groups of 2,3 people. Nukara was a GOOD START. Crossfaction and using Zone chat and you are good to go.
You get to interact with other people and accomplish something.
Let's face it. STO is not WOW and there are issues with queues starting. Also on the fed side.
EVERYTHING CROSS FACTION and everything with a choice of marks, or awarding one type of marks + a small amount of fleet marks.
give us UNIQUE rewards for repeating/optionals of events. this could be a title, a pet, something for the ready room,
unique weapon design or costume pieces.
WOW had (in the time i played - till 2009) like 8 high lvl 5 man events, 3 top lvl 10-20 raids, 4 reputations, like 50 low lvl events to repeat and regrind, events, PVP arenas and mass PVP zones you could just join.
We got (KDF side) three 5 man PVE queues which DO actually start.
It is too bad, cause i have never had the chance to complete big dig with ANY of my KDF toons. The same for breaking the planet.
Reprogram these! Make ZONES out of it where anybody can just join for some 3-5 missions same as Nukara.
PVP balance?
try this:
- BUFF SCI & ENGI space abilities, buff them hard. that is all.
- there should be NO ships with 5 turnrate.
- give us more maps with more objectives.
I also completely agree with this:
And even then it was lighthearted matches between fleetmates.
This line of thinking is why PvP in MMOs tend to end up irrelevant and none functional. I believe you'd be more content on a treadmill as a hamster just running in place. The reward should come from satisfaction of beating your enemy on even terms, not from super rare items, or other bollocks.
Tangible rewards for winning, doesn't work in instanced PvP arenas. It worked on Rallos/Vallon/Tallon because we fought over the right to camp rare monsters/fight in XP areas, back when leveling took months at a time with severe XP penalties for dying. Different era of gaming, different game design.
"Significant" gear grinds doesn't fit in PvP inside an MMORPG, it extends the period for new players before they can be competitive, and depending on the severity of the benefits creates splits in the middle vs the top as well, SWTOR was the latest victim of that.
You quoted Rallos Zek, (Vallon Zek here), but back during Kunark and Velius item upgrades weren't as impactful as they became later when mudflation kicked in and items had to come with massive broad spectrum stat increases.
It's about the keyboard and mouse you are using. If you've got one of the expensive gaming keyboards (or can virtualise one) You and your team win.
There is also the argument that PvP means nothing anyway. I get my 1440 dil for showing up whether I blow up 15 times or I make kills 15 times. It makes no real difference to anyone really.
Add to that it's the same 3 maps over and over, and if it's solar wind spiralling upward literally ad nauseam.
PvP is optional, if you don't want to do it/spec for it. Don't bother. This isn't EvE, WoW or Lineage where you'd be stupid not to. That's the bottom line. People that want to be competitive and be the very best will do all the grinding and purchasing needed to get there regardless, that's what gamers do.
Sad fact is that every lock box they release is geared toward "improving" PvP and making people more powerful so the genie is well and truly out of the bottle on this one, so really the only answer is keep up or keep away.
Yes! Or what would be good - persistent exploration campaigns for teams or fleets. More things to do! Half of the Doff assignment chains would make amazing missions.
And that's how it should remain. I'm all for PvP getting a revamp as long as it's revamped under the understanding that it's optional, not mandatory.
That said, why would the Devs devote an entire Season to something that is completely optional? There's not much profit in that.
PvP Fleets, SoB, Sad Pandas, Turkish RP whatever and House of Beautiful Orions are also to blame for sapping all the fun out of PvP. These people take it far to seriously and will even resort to underhanded measures just to win a PvP match, which was pointed out is utterly pointless. For example "House of Beautiful Orions" will resort to spawn camping Federation spawn with a full team in Capture and Hold, if the Federation loses two players due to bugs and will keep continually destroying their ships. I watched it on my Romulan and was appalled at their tactics.
I would expect some Fleets to have some concept of honor when fighting against Pugs or smaller Fleets but NO.... lets just get out our multi-million JHAS and pound everything from existence. It does make me laugh, one of my Fleet members was in House of Beautiful Orions on his Klingon and he told me that the lengths that these people go to are verging on somewhat sad and pathetic.
You would expect a Fleet to have a decent leadership and maybe try and remain competitive but also fair. My Fleet for example have some very simple rules when it comes to playing with pugs to remain competitive and we also prefer to drydock lockbox ships in favor of more balanced ships.
Other Fleets KNOW that these vessels are unbalanced but still use them in pugs, despite some of them being BANNED from their own little PvP tournament thing that people might have heard off. So its one rule for one and one for another.
This is why large PvP fleets make me laugh, they verge on the truely sad and desperate, not mention have a real obsessive compulsive drive if they have to win every time at a pointless game by using OP stuff.
So yeah, its not just Cryptic, its a vast quantity of players too. Cryptic makes the stuff, these Fleets use them... and then condone it so its never going to change, because Cryptic is making profit off these idiots.
I am not specifically targeting this poster, i am just using this as an example of common misconceptions i feel are apparent about this game STO.
Now i don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this game is a PVE based game. Have you noticed that the menu selection for 'pvp queues' is hidden away in the "not much use" drop down? While PVE queue has its own icon? PVP is clearly a sideline and if you think otherwise then you are kidding yourself. What makes me laugh is that PVPer's think they have something special over people that don't take an interest in PVP simply because it is more team orientated.
Believe it or not a lot of people that play this game only want to PVE, and like just flying round zerging stuff. Dont get me wrong im not entirely happy with the PVE, I would like some more challenging and maybe longer PVE events but thats just me.
Just because YOU like pvp on STO, and you and your little band of pvp elitist heroes all walk round thinking your **** don't stink because you go into premades and wipe out teams of randoms, then thats personal choice. Now if i want to PVP, i go to a real PVP game like Battlefield 3. Thats my personal choice. But i dont try and make out this game isnt a PVE game and try to alter the way the rewards and grinding work for the majority of people who play that only want to PVE, just because it doesnt fit into my plans of PVP. If you want the abilities that the reputation system brings then you have to grind for them, much the same way that if i want to use those abilities for PVE, i also have to grind for them.
What do you want a free hand out for pvper's because they think they dont have to put any work in? Just hit L50 and you are golden? As i said if you think its unbalanced, go play pvp on a game based around pvp.
With regards to running azure nebula 30 times a day etc as someone already mentioned, then yeah i agree the reward system could use some flexibility so people can pick more of the PVE events they like and have rewards for those that are actually useful. Rather than farming the same one until they cant stand it. For instance, i really enjoy the large battle type PVE scenarios like SB24 and the fleet actions. But fleet marks are really not much use to me, so i only play these for fun, yet i need another 80000 Tholian, Romulan and Omega reputation points so then i am wasting my own time as i am not earning marks for those reps that i could be to enable me to do the projects faster. Its like a giant misallocation of resources. It doesnt help that the only events that give Nukara marks are hideously boring.
So in conclusion, my points are:
A) PVPer's you are no more special than any PVEer, so please stop and think for a moment before trying to change the way the game works so you dont have to do any PVE. It is a PVE game whether you like it or not.
I respect your right, not to have to PvP but if people want to put effort, money and time into something that's their business and calling them sad and pathetic weakens your position.
The tournament rules were set by one person and a lot of those fleets didn't take part for that reason and the problem about outlawing some skills and not others is that it doesn't actually create balance, you just tie peoples hands and remove sometimes legitimate strategies.
If you want to only use non lockbox ships, then that's up to you but banning them outright isn't the way forward to improving gameplay and for the record, I've PvP'd with a number of the fleets you've listed and they can be beaten and do have weaknesses, it's just harder because they have a lot of practice.
I wouldn't expect my local football team to be able to go up against Manchester United, but that doesn't mean I can't play a game and have fun or take a leaf out of their training manual so that we can become more skilled in what we do.
Also just wanted to add. Above post very well said.
This guy = legend.
An easy question to answer. PvP should be about skill and knowledge of game mechanics, not about gear or other crud, whether it comes from P2W purchases or grinding.
Which is not 'work', BTW. If you spend time learning the game and developing skills, that is 'work' in a meaningful sense.
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Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I would like to "practice" PvP to be good at it. Rep only introduces some insane PvP affecting proc based mechanics for taggin NPC bunnies.
Seeing my new 0-rep, White Mk X romulan toon competing with fully rep geared fed n klinks (well theoretically at least, not that KvK popped for me once sine LoR) has reminded me just of how ill convieved this whole rep thing is again. The skill gap is bridged by things outside the players control, without a means for tactical deployment. Where is the PvP in that?? The combination of proc based, and only obtainable via PvE without so much as a hint of reflection on how these procs affect pvp, has turned STO's PvP into the sad state of lolspace that we are in now.
Skill still matters but taggin friggin bunnies doesn't enter into it. If all REP SKills were disabled on PvP maps i would not miss them one second.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Since the PvP queues are almost non existent at low levels this creates a vicious circle; you can't possibly learn about the basics since you've only had PvE up until 50. Once you get there, it's relearn everything and regrind new equipment.
If the PvE content was more about skill and countering some of the base elements found in PvP, people wouldn't be so frightened of it. Instead you can rolfstomp even the supposed hardest material in game, with a sub par team, sub par gear and an under-levelled ship. So the threshold of expectation is very high when you take this into consideration.
Plus, I have noticed with increasing frequency people coming into PvP with ship injuries that they probably obtained from multiple deaths in Elite STFs, since they don't make that much of a difference in PvE it's no wonder people do something so unthinkably stupid in PvP.
Wow. Calm down. If I had known someone would throw a giant wall of text at me full of irrational accusations just because I tried to explain the PvPers position in this context I would have probably stayed away from this topic.
You are right with your assumption that only a small percentage of STO's playerbase logs into PvP. It's a small and dedicated minority. Like the rest of the playerbase we have our equal share of pricks and self-proclaimed 'pro's' who constantly look down on other players. As my post should have shown you if you read it more carefully I wasn't looking down on anyone nor do I see anyone else here doing that. I also don't feel entitled to any special treatment, so stop these weird accusations. No need to start a one-man-sh1tstorm because of ONE post. I just tried to explain that even minor changes in gameplay can ruin the experience of an entire group here. Reputation traits and carrier pets for example will never make any difference in STO's PvE missions apart from making players finish them in less time than usual. They will never affect PvE in a considerable way. For PvPers however they can be gamebreaking. I'm not arguing for a position that Cryptic should exclusively listen to PvPers. I simply want them to try a middle road so that the entire playerbase is pleased. New stuff for everyone which also doesn't make an entire gamemode (temporarily) unplayable. However, as many others, I have a feeling that they seldom test their new stuff before release and simply throw them into the game, no matter how broken they are. For PvPers this often becomes a question of 'can I still PvP or should I stay away from it due to bugs and exploits?', something people who only do PvE missions seldom encounter.
That's why such a revamp has never happened nor will it ever happen. Why are the Romulan ships (on paper at least) and Boffs as good as they are? Cryptic wants to make sure you can't simply sidestep them. Because for the game to merely survive and continue they have ot make sure that everything that's put out is in some way monetized. Can you Imagine how a PvP revamp would get monetized? It'd be a PR nightmare for them.
I'm not even sure its a PvE based game either, the content is largely so repetitive and infuriatingly easy and boring that I'm not sure they have anyone on staff capable of designing decent encounters. All they seem capable of is "cakewalk press a button" or "one shots for lolz". What kind of PvE game is like that? That almost sounds like the minor PvE component of a PvP focused game!
Pay 2 Win or Grind to Win... that's the nature of this beast we know of as STO when it comes to PvP. However, it's pretty much the same way in most other PvE/PvP MMOs.
If you want to thump your chest and say "Come at me bro" in a PvP zone, that is your right. Just be prepared to shell out some serious money or spend a lot of time grinding to be one of the best at it.
Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
As i said at the start of my post i wasnt targeting specifically your post. I was using it as an example of common gripes.
The bottom line is this is a PVE based game and to change things to make it 'middle' road would be robbing the majority, who play PVE.
you mention pets only speed up PVE? Well thats the point seeing as most have timers of some kind and more speed = faster grind.
I wasnt starting a ****storm, i am writing a statement i feel is true in my own opinion.
Ill say it again so there is no confusion. Star trek online is a PVE game. 'Balancing' PVP by changing some of the PVE stuff would lessen some people's enjoyment, and seeing as their is currently a lot of grind....that enjoyment has to be nourished whereever it is found.
And for people that say it is a cakewalk. Yes it can be a cakewalk in the right group of players. But you forget, that group of players takes for granted that for the months/years they have been playing the game they have turned themselves into STO equivalents of Liam Neeson from taken. Which results in cakewalk. This happens in all MMO at some point unless they bring in some kind of 'heroic' mode.
Newer and more mentally challenged people are maybe not so competent. Sometimes this brings unanticipated enjoyment into the PVE. Such as mine trap half your distrcit squad going the wrong way or elite cure space having not 1 but 2 cruisers with 8 turrets. (this really has happened to me)
The challenge in PVE comes, and will always come from the people you group with and the experience that group has in the PVE content. Its no different to any other MMO. The REAL problem lies in the fact there is no new elite style STF PVE, and hasnt been for quite some time.
Ill finish on this. If you had run each elite STF hundreds of times, which most of us have, and it wasnt a cakewalk, then i would be concerned. Elite hive space not included.
Precisely. And people say this game's PvP is all about "P2W" now.
Or we could just abandon PvP altogether, and allow Cryptic to focus on fixing bugs, releasing new content - ships, species, outfits, missions and factions. Just my opinion, though.
Much as I agree with what you're saying, there is a fundamental issue - No-one will give up their game-winning build for "honor". Frankly, why would they? At the end of the day, when HoBO is done in their PvP match, they've won. Since there's no caveat that says "play fairly" in the game rules, they've won fair and square. Nothing else matters to them.
Furthermore, how is their tactics appauling? Are you suggesting the winning side in a PvP match should be thinking "Man, we're owning these guys. We should back off, and give them a chance."
If the problem lies with the playerbase, that's one box you don't want to open. You might be able to change Cryptic, but you will never change the way the playerbase acts. That's just fighting a losing battle.