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GDF Changes: Needs a rethink or redesign.
ussultimatum
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I understand that thematically "Go Down Fighting" does not make sense to always be available. This seems to be a branding (name) issue and not realistically a mechanics issue.
However, the reality of this game's combat mechanics make having your Captain Tier power grayed out until under 50% health very far from ideal. Again, a mechanics issue.
While I think theme is nice, I think mechanically viable and/or logical should always come first.
Issues:
1) MW and Photonic Fleet are both getting CD reductions, which translates to uptime increases. GDF remains at current CD (4mins), however it is getting a conditional use attached effectively reducing its uptime. i.e. a nerf.
2) The New trait is nice, however I am unconvinced it is sufficient to prevent one-shots in this game, from either NPCs (Elite Torpedo damage scales) or players (coordinated spike damage). It only lasts 15s, and if your enemies are hitting raw hull its likely that you are going to die anyway.
3) PvP: If coordinated spike damage isn't enough of an issue, SNB still trumps GDF. So your 4 min CD that now requires you to be under 50% hull to even use, can simply be stripped off (along with every other buff) by another power that has 2x faster cooldown (2 min).
In summary:
I think the design of GDF needs a rethink.
Either remove the 50% condition, or make it work in some fashion similar to the Andorian Fury ground trait, or give it protection from instant death/buff strips, etc.
I'm not looking for GDF to be overpowered.
I simply do not think it's equitable that there will be cases where you potentially will either never be able to use this, or use it but die/get SNBd almost instantly after regardless - promptly going back on 4 min CD.
I'll also say that yes, I understand that there are times you may not realistically need MW - and I am 100% in favor of making MW usable on self AND allies to alleviate that.
Further thoughts on the issue of damage stacking:
PvP is a team game, and in that game Sci captains are still king.
A Tac can blow every single cooldown they have, from 90s CDs to 4 & 5 minute CDs. EPTS, APO, TT, RSP, CRF, the works.
A single Sci captain only needs 1 power, on 2 min CD, to completely remove all of that.
A single well applied SNB does significantly more "damage" to the opposing team than any one tac captain stacking his big CDs like APA + GDF.
That's right, ONE Sci captain power is more powerful than every single Tac captain power used together in a massive stack.
However, the reality of this game's combat mechanics make having your Captain Tier power grayed out until under 50% health very far from ideal. Again, a mechanics issue.
While I think theme is nice, I think mechanically viable and/or logical should always come first.
Issues:
1) MW and Photonic Fleet are both getting CD reductions, which translates to uptime increases. GDF remains at current CD (4mins), however it is getting a conditional use attached effectively reducing its uptime. i.e. a nerf.
2) The New trait is nice, however I am unconvinced it is sufficient to prevent one-shots in this game, from either NPCs (Elite Torpedo damage scales) or players (coordinated spike damage). It only lasts 15s, and if your enemies are hitting raw hull its likely that you are going to die anyway.
3) PvP: If coordinated spike damage isn't enough of an issue, SNB still trumps GDF. So your 4 min CD that now requires you to be under 50% hull to even use, can simply be stripped off (along with every other buff) by another power that has 2x faster cooldown (2 min).
In summary:
I think the design of GDF needs a rethink.
Either remove the 50% condition, or make it work in some fashion similar to the Andorian Fury ground trait, or give it protection from instant death/buff strips, etc.
I'm not looking for GDF to be overpowered.
I simply do not think it's equitable that there will be cases where you potentially will either never be able to use this, or use it but die/get SNBd almost instantly after regardless - promptly going back on 4 min CD.
I'll also say that yes, I understand that there are times you may not realistically need MW - and I am 100% in favor of making MW usable on self AND allies to alleviate that.
Further thoughts on the issue of damage stacking:
PvP is a team game, and in that game Sci captains are still king.
A Tac can blow every single cooldown they have, from 90s CDs to 4 & 5 minute CDs. EPTS, APO, TT, RSP, CRF, the works.
A single Sci captain only needs 1 power, on 2 min CD, to completely remove all of that.
A single well applied SNB does significantly more "damage" to the opposing team than any one tac captain stacking his big CDs like APA + GDF.
That's right, ONE Sci captain power is more powerful than every single Tac captain power used together in a massive stack.
Post edited by ussultimatum on
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Comments
The related player trait to GDF also sucks. I hope this will get changed soon, otherwise it's simply that:
-1 skill for Tac players.
its a silly skill all together really. in most duels, its the person that takes serious damage first that wins, rather then the person who succeeded in doing better in the fight. feels pretty cheap to be killed because you got GDF'ed, instead of getting killed because you got out flown.
zombie mode is already op, to the point were you need to stack all those tac buffs to even have a chance to kill most good players. yet MW is going to get more chances to heal grievous damage, undoing successful spike that just got nerfed, and theres going to be more photonic fleet spam then ever.
it really all comes down to buffed being to much better then unbuffed, in all ways. to much resistance, to much healing, to much damage multiplying, and to little base hitpoints and base damage
As I see it there are really only two solutions: keep GDF as it is or convert it fully to a trait and replace it.
1) Revert changes to pre-LoR (current holodeck) functionality. - Not really a solution, but at the least not a breaking.
or
2) Convert entirely to a trait - Make it a passive, scaling damage (and possibly resist buff) that increases in magnitude as the player takes hull damage. Would need to be weaker than the current implementation, perhaps starting at 15, and capping at 30%? Could very well keep the 50% health activation threshold.
Additional options include making it a proc ability that increases in likelihood of activating as the ship takes damage.
Replace in the Captain skill stable with new ability (some form of self Accuracy buff/placate immunity/minor damage buff comes to mind).
Absolutely.
As it is in PvP:
APA: Excellent, working as it should.
Fire on my Mark: Is generally almost instantly cleared by Tac Team, one of the most ubiquitous powers in the game. This power against any competent team will only last on a target for 5 to 10s maximum.
Tac Initiative: No hyperbole, this ability is borderline useless to 9 out of 10 Tac/Escort builds. Escort Tac seating abundance, CD Doffs of all stripes and a lack of Tac BOFF power options to begin with make it extremely marginal.
GDF: Now locked to 50% hull or less. 4 Min CD.
Tac Fleet: Works like other fleets, although it only boosts 22% and not 30% as is listed. Hampered by massive cooldown so it is not really an "on demand" tool by any stretch. Still, it's inline with other Fleet abilities, I suppose.
Some good ideas there stirling, and drunk as well.
Thanks for the input guys.
The old GDF on holo is fine as it was. Its just tampering with stuff that aint broken.
Look at how they totally ruined Ramming speed and abandon ship, I could see abandon ship being abused, but ramming speed was way more fun when you could do as you please at 100% even.
Cryptic logic.
As much as I dislike the overall entitlement that Tacs display...one could say I all but despise Tacs because of that, this one is kind of a no-brainer in their favor.
It's not a Thematic Issue, imho. It's a Tense issue.
The reason that Go Down Fighting should remain like it is on Holo is simple:
It's Go Down Fighting.
It's not Going Down Fighting.
It's a mindset. The Tac is deciding to Go Down Fighting. It's not a case that they're going down and they're going to continue Going Down Fighting.
It's that simple...
...meh, can't believe I'm supporting something that favors Tacs.
Then again, I like to think/feel/believe I'm looking at overall balance. So while there are plenty of other things I can still complain about in regard to both Tacs and Escorts; it still means having to support them when something that is being done to them simply is not right.
Consider beserkers for a moment. There were those berserkers that would enter a berserk rage in the midst of combat - becoming enraged as they were injured or saw friends getting injured. There were also those berserkers that simply got worked up into that frenzy going into the fight.
Go Down Fighting left the door open for it to apply to both cases.
Now on the other hand, they added a new trait. Last Ditch Effort. Now that, should only apply when the Tac is below 50%, etc, etc, etc. Again, because it's got the tense for it...they're already in the process of the Go Down Fighting...they're going to apply a Last Ditch Effort as they continue to Go Down Fighting.
I'm about to die, here, pop a MW, cleanses no debuffs, reduces its cooldown, die seconds later anyway.
the GDF change is a nerf, an uneeded nerf. we say dont nerf me for no reason bro, and suddenly the ability name RPers are up in force. its go down fighting, so you should only be able to use it wile going down fighting! regardless of balance concerns and the abilities role. if it weren't for the name you would have nothing to complain about. same thing for the EPt change that was thankfully prevented. scary to think so many think the ability name is more important then functioning game play.
i cant make much sense of that, but at the very least ussultimatum and myself came out totally against the change, due to its cruiser nerfing and exploit ability. not a single person of fleet ever suggested they do what they were initially going to do, that was diametrically apposed to all feedback that was out there on the EPt skills. no one has even brought up EPt here but you, and those skills have nothing to do with GDF at all. this thread is about undoing the GDF change, so its no different then it is on holo now.
Tac hate is pretty easy, whether somebody is a Sci or an Eng.
Kind of like Escort hate is pretty easy, heck, even Tacs in Cruisers/Battle Cruisers join in on the Escort hate.
There are plenty of reasons to hate Tac...however, that hate is misguided with regard to the GDF changes, imho. That's not where any change was needed. As it works on Holo fits thematically and mechanically...there's not an issue there. They should keep GDF like it is on Holo but make sure that the LDE trait only applies at 50% or below.
Folks arguing to keep the GDF changes...well, to me - that's just spite, just blind hate, and it detracts from the overall goal of trying to balance things. It also sheds a poor light on those that have more than enough justification to hate the entitlement issues that Tacs have. It makes us look bad because we'll end up grouped with the blind hate folks...and meh, everybody makes fun of them.
Now, I can understand that Go down fighting may have needed a nerf.
But this now makes it quite useless.
On tribble I simply removed it from the bridge officer powers tray. Its as useful as the Self Destruct ability. Not useful at all.
The only problem I have is that stupid 50% hull thing. Please remove it.
Make it give a smaller bonus , but remove that 50% restriction.
So revert the 50% change.
Nerf its damage bonus or duration if you have to, but at least please make it available again.
But right now, I would rather have Photonic fleet then Go down fighting.
And if it is a name issue, rename the ability! Call it "Relentless Assault" or something else.
I like the new GDF, and the new trait that gives it more survivability.
Because it now functions only below 50%, I'd toss it on my spambar together with Fleet Support. That way, the moment I drop below 50% the skill fires off giving a huge damage bonus and I get a survivability buff which at that point I really damn need one!!
Its however overbalanced by getting subnuc'd off. That is the real issue here.
Subnuc needs to not affect all Captain skill buffs. So it can take out APO, but affects nothing that takes longer than a minute to recharge.
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That..is not really any good for PVE.
The survivability bonus is not enough against the borgs mean enough to damage you down to 50% in the first place.
And those who you can survive to fight with 50% health are not good enough to damage you that much in the first place.
My own problem with Subnuc is that it gives even weapons fire a double cooldown time.
All the other tac skills benefit all ships, including cruisers.
The way I see it, STO ends up in a situation where to be optimized, Engineers fly virtually immortal Escorts or Bugs, Tacs go into cruisers healing and burst dps-ing, Sci need tac-focused carriers to keep up, and Science Vessels become even more useless.
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This ability is just pure uselessness, unless you are in a cruiser.
And if I'm in a cruiser I want to be an engineer not a tacital! I hate it when I cant get the maximum out of the ship class that should go with the character career.
I'm a tactical, not an engineer Jim!
Again, there are no ships that go with career. There are no restrictions.
A Cruiser != an Engineer.
An Engineer != a Cruiser.
There is maximizing, no doubt - the Tac in an Escort can do more damage than the Tac in a Cruiser or a Science Vessel...but maximizing comes (or at least should, it's broken in STO) at the cost of minimizing.
The Tac Cruiser should technically be able to do more overall damage than the Tac Escort...because the Tac Escort should either need to disengage or be looking at a respawn button from not having disengaged.
Of course, if the Tac in the Escort is receiving support in the form of buffs/healing/target debuffs - then the Tac in the Escort should once again be able to do the most damage...because of that outside support keeping them in the fight longer (either able to remain engaged longer or simply not dead).
That gets into classic Trinity though... you'd have the Tank holding aggro, the Healer keeping the Tank alive and any silly DPS that takes damage, and the DPS unloading. STO doesn't have that Trinity though.
Nor does it have the Tac in the Escort that needs to disengage.
Nor does that mean that the Tac in the Cruiser can eventually outdamage the Tac in the Escort.
Nor this, nor that, etc, etc, etc...
...it doesn't really matter. As long as there are folks that can't figure out how to put flipflops on, Cryptic will continue to buff Escorts into the absurd.
...and again, the GDF change is not a change that needs to be addressed to address that issue. It's a distraction. It's the wrong move. It will likely only result in some additional buff elsewhere which will just make things that much worse.
They should leave GDF alone (as it is on Holo) and simply make sure that LDE only applies at 50% or less.
That seems to be not only the simplest solution given the time remaining before LoR launches, but also the one that thematically fits with what the devs attempted to do with the Tribble GDF changes.
Does that mean you need to unnecessarily limit an ability from being used? Not really.
To be completely honest, with your background and my experience with you personally I'd say it would be expected that you, of all people would understand this stupid change. They CAN fiddle around with Tactical's GDF yet they care for sh*t about Engineers.
Is that also part of your logic? Oh wait you were a selfish PvP tank aimed at solo play, I forgot :P
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Yeah it's mind boggling that most players really don't understand how strong Sci captains are. (Which is great, btw, they should be powerful!)
Yeah, exactly.
Basically, spacefortress (vang) is against anything that could ever actually hurt and/or kill his cruiser.
If it were up to him, all offense powers, debuffs etc., would basically just bounce of his fantasy cruiser that is just totally invincible. This is why I don't actually respond directly to his posts.
Mostly because a lot of players are just clueless about Sci.
As for Eng, I've been in pretty much every thread advocating for Engineer improvements.
Player =/= In Game Character
SNB, and simply dying to damage - Last Ditch Effort trait will not save you from proper coordinated strikes from an opposing team.
And against some premade teams, you'll be lucky to even get that GDF off from spamming your spacebar.
That sounds like working as intended to me.
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My thoughts on Sci are still in Praxi's sig I believe...the cottonball comment I made during the Kumari discussions.
My dislike for many Tac players is the sense of entitlement they show. It doesn't mean that every Tac player is like that, but there are more than enough of them to have developed that dislike.
As for Eng players, I think there are more of them that dislike me than Tac and Sci combined. The majority of them I see simply suffer Tac envy and want to be the very thing they spend so much time complaining about. Irks me to pieces - that one does.
When you get certain Tac players and certain Eng players in a thread - well, I tend to smoke more.
I don't expect everybody to agree with me, I don't know everything and folks sure as Hell should agree with me on everything. I can be wrong, have seen that, and in moving on and learning from that I've been able to strengthen other arguments or even help them argue their points.
But I see a vast difference between those folks that I disagree with that are looking for overall game balance (where we want the same thing, but think we can get there differently) and those folks that don't give a rat's caboose about the game overall as long as they can keep what they've got. Those folks...bother me. And a lot of those folks - are Tacs. So it's easy to dislike them.
Perhaps it's because I play both KDF and Fed. I'll actually end up arguing against and for both. Perhaps it's because I play Tac, Sci, and Eng...both on KDF and Fed...that I actually end up arguing with and against the various Careers. Perhaps it's because I fly Escorts, BoPs, Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, Science Vessels, Carriers, etc, etc, etc...that...
Lots of folks like one thing - they play one thing - they view everything from that one thing - want that one thing to be as good as possible - they have their one thing.
I don't have one thing. Well, I do...Star Trek Online. I want that to be as good as possible. With that, it means I'm going to have suggestions that both nerf and buff various things in the game.
So yeah, here I am with an admitted dislike of many Tac players out there...fighting to keep GDF like it is on Holo (with the 50% change to LDE). Because my dislike of them is not more important than what I see as trying to balance and have a better STO.
Perhaps if I weren't so dismissive of many of the Eng folks and Cruiser folks, then I'd dislike them more than I do the Tac and Escort folks. But I am pretty dismissive of them. It's hard not to be dismissive of them. Look at how many are asking for the same things they're complaining about? That's just nonsense, imho - so yeah - I just kind of ignore them. I mean, seriously...how can somebody say that X, Y, & Z are broken - so to fix X, Y, & Z...give it to more people? Nonsense...
I think the majority of the dislike for Tacs arose during the discussions about Tac abilities buffing Sci abilities. That oozed entitlement and drove me up the wall. It was so simple and straightforward what was being asked...but nope, couldn't have it.
Imagine:
Remove Tac ability to buff Sci abilities.
Increase damage from Sci abilities.
Who's going to do more damage?
The Tac would.
What?
Cause the Tac and Sci would be doing the same damage with the Sci abilities, would the Tac would still be doing more damage with the weapons.
It wasn't about the Sci doing more damage than the Tac. The Tac would still do more damage than the Sci. It was about the Sci being more viable in PvE settings, where the abilities that have their most use in PvP are pretty near useless in PvE.
But hey, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't also ticking off the Sci folks in those same discussions where I was championing that for them but also pointing out issues with Sci stuff.
I'm not trying to win any popularity contests. Balance can only be achieved through give and take. Some folks out there don't want to give anything to anybody and they don't want anything taken away. I tend to find most of them to be Tac players.
The Tribble GDF changes though...it's the wrong take, imho. It doesn't fit either thematically or mechanically. I didn't always think that way. My initial thing was the common Going Down Fighting that lots of folks go with...but I thought about it more, and yeah - it's easy to see a Go Down Fighting mindset from the outset...not requiring that somebody's already going down...but they plan to keep fighting even as they're going down.
I would not mind other ship classes and careers getting buffed however.
As long as my tactical and escort is good in PVe, I dont mind if other classes get new bonuses.
Then let me put it like this for you: The change to GDF might slow your clears of the various PvE actions in the game, but otherwise in no way, shape, or form threatens Tactical Captain's supremacy in clearing Space PvE content.
RE: Tacs and Sci Powers
Tac's boosting Sci damage is a good thing. A very good thing, particularly because of how Tac's use their BOff powers vs how Sci's use them. Tac's use their powers to draw out heals. They're masters of it, and once a target is out of heals, it's just a matter of time before death occurs. A Sci cappy uses his BOff powers to draw out but more often clears (which also happen to be heals 90% of the time) with the intention of making them unavailable post-SNB, leaving a target in an extremely vulnerable state.
Limiting Tacs to boosting only the weapons and weapon-related powers of Sci ships would put a massive dent in their ability to draw out heals in Sci ships and basically render the combination moot. Sci Captains struggling in PvE content has a lot less to do with their powers not doing enough damage 'cause they're boostable by Tactical Captains, and a lot more to do with encounter and mob design relative to the mechanisms of the game that are in play.
Oh yeah, don't forget all Sci cappys are getting a potential 30% boost in the damage output of exotic damage they do (Shield Drains, GW, TBR, FBP, EWP, and PSW being the main powers to benefit) via a new trait.
Heh, it was an old discussion.
But yeah, it will be interesting to see just what CoE will and will not affect. It would be nifty to get some clarification from Cryptic on that rather than the usual trial and error from the community which is often subject to stealth changes...
As someone who also plays all classes in many ship types GDF isn't doing much in a PvE environment for damage. In normal, if you lose shields you are terribly bad, so bad you aren't doing much damage to start with. In elite if those shields aren't up all the time, you are dead dead dead, the torpedoes are too strong to try and use GDF properly. What they've done is basically remove a captain ability from tacs, which is what I disagree with.
In PvP, with yo-yo healing, all it does it further assist tacs, so its an odd change.
I built my eng build around their abilities, the one I don't use often is Miracle Worker. Also Nadeon Inversion is underwhelming.
And other than the overpowered nature of subnuc in PvP, sci overall is a mess that needs help.
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A lot of your post said stuff I think you've wanted to say. I've left it as is, since there isn't actually anything particular to disagree with or comment on from me.
On the above however, the devs have found a neat little way to address the PvE in that Sci captains can now boost their Sci power damage by up to 30%.
That is no small amount if it works like I think it works (APA is 50%, so if it works like APA I'll be taking more threat control on all of my Scis
All good points grim, big one in red.