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EPTW: A Force Multiplier of sorts?

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited May 2013 in PvP Gameplay
So, I've been reading some posts around here, and a bit on OPvP about how EPTW is a 'final buff' of sorts. I feel a tad confused on that, so maybe ya'll wouldn't mind helping me make sure I have this right.

If I take Energy Weapon A, which does 100 damage (base, unbuffed, untouched with anything)...which of these things will happen when I use EPTW (25%), APA (20% damage boost), GDF (50% damage), and Tac Fleet (30%)

(Numbers are kept to simpler levels for sake of not confusing myself worse)

Example A: 100 damage base, plus APA is 120, Tac fleet is 150, and GDF makes it 200 damage. Adding in EPTW will buff that to 250

OR

Example B: 100 damage base, APA is 120, Tac fleet is 150, GDF makes it 200. But EPTW will only buff to 225.

Or are both wrong?

I'm feeling like Example A is correct, but I'm just wanting to make sure. If that's the case though, then whoa, I can see why people are talking about just how strong EPTW, especially EPTW 3 can really be on an escort using cannons.

Change up those numbers some what, like let's say those cannons are doing...I dunno...6,500 damage. Add in the 40% or so boost from EPTW 3 (I think it's 40%), and suddenly that final number will jump to 9,100 (before crits, misses, resists, etc).

If I'm thinking this right of course.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Post edited by mimey2 on

Comments

  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I believe unlike the other buffs and consoles it calculates off of total damage and not base damage.

    So is base is 100 and boost a adds 10% its 10% of 100 so 110.
    Then add boost B which is again 10% but still just 10% of 100 not 110, so its now 120. EPTW comes in and adds yet another 10% but this is 10% of 120 not 100 so its 132.

    At least thats what I gathered. Math is hard, 2 and 2 should equal 22.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    APA and other tac buffs do the same im pretty sure
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    AFAIK the order goes like this.

    Base Weapon Type Damage
    + Additive Damage Boosts (Consoles, Skills, Weapon Rank/Quality/Mods calculated from base)
    + Additive Multipliers (Attack Pattern Alpha/Omega, GDF, calculated from base damage + additive damage boosts)

    * True Multipliers (Weapon Power)

    Now I have no clue where tactical fleet falls into there. Additionally in the past EPtW was a true multiplier but I think that changed recently or is changed on tribble so it is a standard additive multiplier but have nothing to back that up atm.

    Example:
    Beam Array, Mk 10, Rare, 2x [Dmg], 50% dmg consoles, no skills, 50% APA, 50% GDF, 100 Wpn Power.

    Base = 100
    + 100 (mk 10) + 5 (rare) + 5 (2x Dmg) + 50 =
    260
    + 130 (APA .5 * 260) + 130 (GDF) =
    520
    * 200 (1 + Wpn Power Mod) =
    1,040 DPV
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.

    When it comes back up, will have to check if EPtW has changed.

    Regarding Tac Fleet, in my tests - it's broken. Tac Fleet 2 gives the same bonus as Tac Fleet 1... though I'll have to check that as well...er...when it comes back up.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    When it comes back up, will have to check if EPtW has changed.

    Regarding Tac Fleet, in my tests - it's broken. Tac Fleet 2 gives the same bonus as Tac Fleet 1... though I'll have to check that as well...er...when it comes back up.

    Aside from that though your findings match my own? Just making sure I'm not being dumb again :confused:
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The question is - for those with bettter math skills.

    Whats the tac console value of EpTW power ?
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    The question is - for those with bettter math skills.

    Whats the tac console value of EpTW power ?

    Complicated.

    Rough math though shows a 10% boost (EPtW) assuming it is an additive multiplier as I described above would be slightly better than a 4th Tac console for damage.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.
    bareel wrote: »
    Aside from that though your findings match my own? Just making sure I'm not being dumb again :confused:

    Thought the Buffs came after the Weapon Power. Ugh, now I'm having a brainfart. Could have sworn that's the conclusion that was reached through some of the threads.

    Base
    + (Base * ((Skill Points/100) * 0.5))...Weapon Training
    + (Base * ((Skill Points/100) * 0.5))...Energy Weapons
    + (Base * (Mark/10))...Mark
    + (Base * (Rarity * 0.025))...Rarity (Uncommon 1, Rare 2, Very Rare 3, Ultra Rare 4)
    + (Base * ((# of [Dmg] consoles) * 0.05))...[Dmg] Consoles
    + ((# of Tac Consoles) * (Base * (Console Modifier/100)))...Tac Consoles
    * (1 + (((Weapon Power) -50) * 0.02)))...Weapon Power

    That creates the "New Base" for when we add in the Buffs, which like the above (outside of the Weapon Power) are additive.

    ex: + ("New Base" * ("Some Buff Percentage"/10))

    Those would be added up until you're ready to apply EPtW to it.

    "Everything Up To EPtW" * (1 + ("EPtW Percentage"/10)) = the tooltip damage.

    But I'm massively asleep at this point and not sure why I'm still up...or if that's how they add up. I could probably search for the threads.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Thought the Buffs came after the Weapon Power. Ugh, now I'm having a brainfart. Could have sworn that's the conclusion that was reached through some of the threads.

    Base
    + (Base * ((Skill Points/100) * 0.5))...Weapon Training
    + (Base * ((Skill Points/100) * 0.5))...Energy Weapons
    + (Base * (Mark/10))...Mark
    + (Base * (Rarity * 0.025))...Rarity (Uncommon 1, Rare 2, Very Rare 3, Ultra Rare 4)
    + (Base * ((# of [Dmg] consoles) * 0.05))...[Dmg] Consoles
    + ((# of Tac Consoles) * (Base * (Console Modifier/100)))...Tac Consoles
    * (1 + (((Weapon Power) -50) * 0.02)))...Weapon Power

    That creates the "New Base" for when we add in the Buffs, which like the above (outside of the Weapon Power) are additive.

    ex: + ("New Base" * ("Some Buff Percentage"/10))

    Those would be added up until you're ready to apply EPtW to it.

    "Everything Up To EPtW" * (1 + ("EPtW Percentage"/10)) = the tooltip damage.

    But I'm massively asleep at this point and not sure why I'm still up...or if that's how they add up. I could probably search for the threads.

    Wouldn't matter when you multiply weapon power as long as you remained consistent.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    The question is - for those with bettter math skills.

    Whats the tac console value of EpTW power ?

    Tac Consoles have a quirky sort of diminishing return. The more you have of them - the better your skills - the better your gear - the less each actually contributes to your overall damage. It's not an actually diminishing return - it's a contributory diminishing return. Er, if that makes sense?

    If what I said above is right (I haven't searched for the threads yet - I probably should, but I want to grab a smoke - so if I'm wrong, I'll come back and fix this)...then it would look something like this.

    Say you've got 9 Weapon Training, 9 Energy Weapons, a VR Mk XII DHC (no Dmg mods), and running at 125 Weapon Power.

    Base = 174
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
    + (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
    + (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
    * (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1424.19 (Weapon Power)

    Let's add a +30% Console to that.

    Base = 174
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
    + (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
    + (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
    + (1 * (174 * 0.30)) = 621.876 (+30% Tac Console)
    * (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1554.69 (Weapon Power)

    So that single +30% console gave us around +9.2% damage.

    Let's add a second +30% Console to that.

    Base = 174
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 260.913 (Weapon Training)
    + (174 * (0.999 * 0.5)) = 347.826 (Energy Weapons)
    + (174 * 1.2) = 556.626 (Mark XII)
    + (174 * (4 * 0.025)) = 569.676 (Very Rare)
    + (2 * (174 * 0.30)) = 674.076 (+30% Tac Console)
    * (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 1685.19 (Weapon Power)

    The second console gave us around +8.4% additional damage over the single console.

    Each console actually adds the same amount...52.2 damage. It's just as you increase the amount of damage being done, that 52.2 is staying the same and thus becoming a smaller and smaller part of the overall damage. So there's no diminishing return in regard to the 52.2 - it's the same (for a +30% console for DHCs, it will vary depending on the +X% and the weapon's base damage)...there is a diminishing return as far as how much each makes up of the overall damage.

    It's a play on things actually, if one thinks about it. They're not adding less damage, they're just adding less of the overall damage. Twisted, eh? Complicated? Yeah, lol...the more damage you're doing - up the gear, add [Dmg] mods, add in all the buffs, throw in some crits...the less each will appear to add to your overall damage.

    Here's an example, so to speak (please let the math be right - cause I think my left eye just twitched and then closed and I'm definitely leaning to the right in my chair...so asleep, lol).

    Single +30% Tac Console for DHCs...

    (1 * (174 * 0.30)) = 52.2
    52.2 * (1 + ((125-50) * 0.02))) = 130.5

    Say we do a +47.1% APA3...

    (130.5) + (130.5 * 0.471) = 191.9655

    Say we add a +14.2% APO1...

    191.9655 + (130.5 * 0.142) = 210.4965

    Say we do a +24.9% GDF3...

    210.4965 + (130.5 * 0.249) = 242.991

    Say we add a +30% T-Fleet2...

    242.991 + (130.5 * 0.3) = 282.141

    Say we do a +10% EPtW1...

    282.141 * 1.1 = 310.3551

    Given all those buffs - that's how much additional damage that each +30% Tac Console would add. Given all those buffs...that number would remain the same for each +30% Tac Console. However, all those buffs would also apply to the other things.

    Hrmm, here's a simpler way of putting it I guess. I should grab some caffeine or go smoke...hrmm. I'll post it and then come back to read if it makes any sense.

    1 (1 is 100% of 1)

    1 + 1 = 2 (1 is 50% of 2)

    1 + 1 + 1 = 3 (1 is ~33% of 3)

    1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 (1 is 25% of 4)

    The value of 1 is always 1. However, the percentage that each 1 contributes to the whole diminishes as each additional 1 is added. A constant and diminishing returns all wrapped up in...1 (yes, a sleepy pun!).

    I'm going to grab another diet Mountain Dew.

    edit: Hrmm, that example with the 1's didn't quite describe what I was trying to describe. It does show how the overall contribution diminishes for each console - showing how much each contributes, but that's not the same as...

    1 + 1 + 1 = 3
    1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 (The 4th 1 makes it +33% more than it was before.)
    1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5 (The 5th 1 makes it +25% more than it was before.)
    1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 (The 6th 1 makes it +20% more than it was before.)

    So as you add more 1's, each 1 adds "less" to the total even though 1 is always 1 and always adding the "same"...
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.
    bareel wrote: »
    Wouldn't matter when you multiply weapon power as long as you remained consistent.

    With certain of the additive modifiers coming before the Weapon Power multiplier which determines the new base for the additive modifiers that come after the Weapon Power...it should matter where the each of the additive modifiers is added, no?

    This thread, no? http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=604551

    I'm going for a smoke.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    My question was more along the lines.

    Fleet Cheyene with EPtW3 vs. Fleet Excelsior with EptW1

    Which one does more raw dmg, with let's say 6 beams
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    My question was more along the lines.

    Fleet Cheyene with EPtW3 vs. Fleet Excelsior with EptW1

    Which one does more raw dmg, with let's say 6 beams

    Meh, my guy can't train EPtW3 so I can't see the actual numbers that he would get for it.

    The difference for the base numbers according to STOwiki is +9.1% damage (as well as providing an additional 10 Weapon Power to cover drain). It's doubtful that the 4th Tac Console would add more than +9.1% to the damage and it wouldn't provide the additional +10 power either.

    However, STOwiki lists +7.5% for EPtW1 while my guy's sporting +10% for EPtW1... what bonuses do you have listed for EPtW1 and EPtW3 on your guy? The difference between those two (keeping the +10 Weapon Power in mind), would be what would have to be covered by the 4th Tac Console the Excelsior has over the Cheyenne...
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    EPW1 is +10%, EPW3 is 16,6% if you asking for that hehe.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Excel, ignoring the weapon power overcap, by a very tiny amount.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ask7SlB4gHardENTdnZBVWU5VGRINGpCejYteUtiQmc#gid=0

    If you can understand it. Nap time for me too. Excel is on the right.

    Note things like increasing your weapon skill can change the outcome.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    NOTE: Recent testing shows that EPtW is no longer a final modifier.
    bareel wrote: »
    Excel, ignoring the weapon power overcap, by a very tiny amount.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ask7SlB4gHardENTdnZBVWU5VGRINGpCejYteUtiQmc#gid=0

    If you can understand it. Nap time for me too. Excel is on the right.

    Note things like increasing your weapon skill can change the outcome.

    Yeah, even without breaking out the math - the 4th console on the Excelsior should provide the slight advantage as seen in that spreadsheet. It should be able to cover the 6.6% difference and give that little edge.

    Course, it still gets complicated because of the additional +Weapon Power of the EPtW3 which could help with drain...but factoring in drain is well beyond anything I've ever done or would be up to at this point...heh.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think of a force multiplier as one that scales in a way that when it's used its benefits increase the potential of others as well as the player using it. Since EPtW only increases a single player's effectiveness I'd say it's not. I do get where you're going in that it's potentially a force multiplier in terms of boosting stacked abilities, but there are a lot of abilities that do this directly or indirectly and boost the ability of others to be effective.
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I think of a force multiplier as one that scales in a way that when it's used its benefits increase the potential of others as well as the player using it. Since EPtW only increases a single player's effectiveness I'd say it's not. I do get where you're going in that it's potentially a force multiplier in terms of boosting stacked abilities, but there are a lot of abilities that do this directly or indirectly and boost the ability of others to be effective.

    Yeah force multiplier isnt reallt apt. Perhaps this is closer to a turbo button....:-p

    I will however be trying afew variations on my Battle Oddy. since I effectively have 3 BO's on it Im going to try 2 EPTW1's and 1 EPTE3 see which gets me the most mileage
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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Hmm...interesting, VERY interesting that EPTW is no longer a final multiplier. Which is kind of a good thing, because it could get a bit insane if it was. It'll still be useful of course, but not to the point of being a little too insane.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I think of a force multiplier as one that scales in a way that when it's used its benefits increase the potential of others as well as the player using it.


    Agreed.

    It doesn't matter how much or in what manner EPTW boosts damage, as a self-only buff it is not a "force" multiplier.

    Scattering Field, Sensor Scan, FOMM, Sci/Tac/Eng Fleet, APB and indirectly SNB are all examples of force multipliers.

    Although it seems mimey only used the term force multiplier in the thread title and not actually in the OP.
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