test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

I dont get it......

naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
edited April 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Lately, Ive been seeing "Nerf damage by" and then the same group go "Nerf healing by" threads pop up. Doesn't that mean things are some what balanced now?
As an example right now, if you nerf damage now, you'll kill nothing. If you nerf shields now, you'll get badly vaped. Doesnt that sound balanced?

Is it that people want to regress back to low skill faw builds of old to kill?

Don't get me wrong, there are still issues with the game, but no where near the amount of issues we used to have in the past. Hell there's even more variables associated to pvp than there ever was. I'm surprised but also thankful that the issues haven't grown accordingly.

Next time you think about starting a thread along those lines, just think carefully about it before you post.
Post edited by naz4 on
«1345

Comments

  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    We have a great number of people wanting to nerf DHCs at the same time as a great number of people want to nerf healing. It's funny that they don't seem to get the irony :P
  • bobtheyakbobtheyak Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Lately, Ive been seeing "Nerf damage by" and then the same group go "Nerf healing by" threads pop up. Doesn't that mean things are some what balanced now?
    As an example right now, if you nerf damage now, you'll kill nothing. If you nerf shields now, you'll get badly vaped. Doesnt that sound balanced?

    Is it that people want to regress back to low skill faw builds of old to kill?

    Don't get me wrong, there are still issues with the game, but no where near the amount of issues we used to have in the past. Hell there's even more variables associated to pvp than there ever was. I'm surprised but also thankful that the issues haven't grown accordingly.

    Next time you think about starting a thread along those lines, just think carefully about it before you post.

    Very constructive post you have here. In what paradigm should people "think carefully?"
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Maybe by removing the two extreme ends of the spectrum would make better pvp?
    Noone.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I think it's a reflection of the Yo-Yo nature of the game mechanics. It it were more balanced, it would appear more balanced...rather than appearing as if there is too much healing/resist at times and too much damage at times.

    Here's an example of how I can see it being both at the same time very easily.

    I've got a guy that can drop out so much Plasma that the target will pop before I can even finish dropping it all out. If that target has HE up or available or if the target is able to receive HE support from somebody else, then my guy is near completely useless.

    Too much damage.
    Too much healing/cleansing.
    Too much Yo-Yo. Too much Paper, Scissors, Rock.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited April 2013
    Everything can be attributed to ego.

    They want to be that person that everyone will think they are an amazing player that can kill everything and not be killed in the process.

    They want people to know their name and respect them.

    They have no use for teams and teamwork. They can do everything for themselves. And they are going to be awesome at it.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bobtheyak wrote: »
    Very constructive post you have here. In what paradigm should people "think carefully?"

    If you ask for 1 change to be made and then it happens, what are the knock on effects its gonna have?

    Example - Nerfing DHC's tomorrow will make Fleet shields far more powerful than they have ever been. Doing so would result in a far greater perceived imbalance.

    Also look what happened when FAW got nerfed. How many people were p***** off after realising that the hours they put into farming EC's to purchase [ACC]X3 beams overnight went to waste. I know quite a few people who left the game because of these types of changes. So financially, for Crytic, it would be a bad move as well to cause such an effect.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    Maybe by removing the two extreme ends of the spectrum would make better pvp?
    Then what? No one will ever die and matches will go on forever (worse than it already does now).
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    Maybe by removing the two extreme ends of the spectrum would make better pvp?

    Wouldnt this result in the 3 - 4 hour matches of old? That would make it boring and less accessible for casual pvpers?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Wouldnt this result in the 3 - 4 hour matches of old? That would make it boring and less accessible for casual pvpers?

    I honestly don't ever remember being in 4 hour matches before.

    Zorena has a point... both extremes might be a bit much.

    You have a point as well one can't be reduces with out reducing the other.

    Is healing to strong... yes

    Is healing to active... yes

    Is dmg to strong... against unbuffed targets yes

    Is spike to strong... perhaps it is.

    The yo yo effect is the real issue in this game...

    DPS can go from 12k crits on a cannon to 2k (with most of the dmg not even keeping up with passive regen) when there target pops 1-2 defensive buffs.

    Healing can go from 2k in hull to full shield and full hull in less then 4-5s seconds with self buffs. With team buffs that is more like 1s.

    The yo yo has always been there... but now lets all be honest its out of control.

    I don't see how cryptic honestly reduces the yo you with out a major buff rewrite.

    The little changes bort will implement with the rom launch will just shift things around and really change nothing.

    Its time for another major healing / damage rewrite. It was done once before, and its time for the same treatment.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    Maybe by removing the two extreme ends of the spectrum would make better pvp?
    I think it's a reflection of the Yo-Yo nature of the game mechanics. It it were more balanced, it would appear more balanced...rather than appearing as if there is too much healing/resist at times and too much damage at times.

    These mechanics increase depth and put more emphasis on player skill. Reducing both ends of the spectrum, or becoming less "yo-yo", would increase accessibility but would do so at the expense of a shallower game.

    Where the right point to aim for on this spectrum of depth vs. accessibility is a matter of debate -- entirely personal opinion. Here's what's not a matter of personal opinion: The fact that people are whining about both healing and burst shows that the game is pretty well balanced (excluding of course some obvious pay-2-win and I-win buttons). If Cryptic were to try to move the game towards some other point on that spectrum, there's no guarantee that they would be able to keep the current state of balance in the process. In fact, it would probably take a significant amount of trial and error to get back to the current level of balance at a new point in the spectrum.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Keep the current state of balance ?

    What state of balance. lol

    Lets get real... the current state of balance is this...

    He with the most nukes wins. Yes very balanced indeed.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    How about, maybe cruisers should for fill a role where their damage is important in pvp ofc their main focus should be around healing skills, where their healing skills feels vital to the team balance, where science ships are not used because of how many broken Get out of jail free cards they have but rather for offensive science skills. Science skills hardly matter, Shock wave, is the only viable because it brakes extend and create a spam-fest of shock-waves with doffs and viral matrix, because lately being dead in the water (e.g = no speed) means that the damage output of cannons is extreme.
    Where Escorts are "the damage dealers" but don't do everything on their own, self tanking with tt, epts, RSP, Brace for impact + doffs, TSS and a HE get you very far.


    I promote no play-style, I play escort but that's because I don't want to sit in pug matches bored to death by lack of damage, and still yet everyone complains that healing is too powerful. Really bad players/with bad builds get oneshotted or killed by everything people with elite fleet shields and rep system can survive far too long.

    Well the only class of ships I truly hate is carriers, but it seems we can't get rid of them.

    Pug/premade is made even more crappier with elite fleet shields, mediocre damage isn't worth anything and extreme damage is only viable.
    Noone.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    Keep the current state of balance ?

    What state of balance. lol

    Lets get real... the current state of balance is this...

    He with the most nukes wins. Yes very balanced indeed.

    Funny, because in the past we've beaten plenty of teams with 5 science captains.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I honestly don't ever remember being in 4 hour matches before.

    Zorena has a point... both extremes might be a bit much.

    You have a point as well one can't be reduces with out reducing the other.

    Is healing to strong... yes

    Is healing to active... yes

    Is dmg to strong... against unbuffed targets yes

    Is spike to strong... perhaps it is.

    The yo yo effect is the real issue in this game...

    DPS can go from 12k crits on a cannon to 2k (with most of the dmg not even keeping up with passive regen) when there target pops 1-2 defensive buffs.

    Healing can go from 2k in hull to full shield and full hull in less then 4-5s seconds with self buffs. With team buffs that is more like 1s.

    The yo yo has always been there... but now lets all be honest its out of control.

    I don't see how cryptic honestly reduces the yo you with out a major buff rewrite.

    The little changes bort will implement with the rom launch will just shift things around and really change nothing.

    Its time for another major healing / damage rewrite. It was done once before, and its time for the same treatment.

    Pandas and TSI have had a few matches in the past which never seemed to end which was at a point in time where the extremes weren't as extreme as they are now.

    Granted the yo yo effects are quite severe but the fun is just as yo yo which right now is keeping me personally glued to the game and also good matches tend to last no more than an hour which is a good side effect personally.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Funny, because in the past we've beaten plenty of teams with 5 science captains.

    I'm not talking about junk teams here...

    If you are going to talk about balance... talk about people that are balanced skill wise then look at the team make up.

    Split your panda boys down the middle in terms of skill... and give one side 2 escorts and 3 nukes and the other 3 escorts and 2 nukes.

    Now lets take some bets on which side wins. lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Keep the current state of balance ?

    What state of balance. lol

    Lets get real... the current state of balance is this...

    He with the most nukes wins. Yes very balanced indeed.

    Even in the current state of the game, we are managing to kill without having a nuke. I'm sure my friend Hank from Inner Circle can back me up on this :)

    BoP
    Vaporiser
    Dkora

    The above if built right can consistently kill without the target having to be nuked.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Pandas and TSI have had a few matches in the past which never seemed to end which was at a point in time where the extremes weren't as extreme as they are now.

    Granted the yo yo effects are quite severe but the fun is just as yo yo which right now is keeping me personally glued to the game and also good matches tend to last no more than an hour which is a good side effect personally.

    Frankly back then you guys both had broken views of what a team should be... I seem to remember escorts with nothing but dhc.

    Spike has always been a game changer... and its only now with all the new BS shield resistances that the games good escort pilots are starting to understand that.

    I doubt that after shields resists are reduced... that those guys are going to be going back to 4dhcs again.

    Yes I remember playing in some of the games back then that went on for long periods.

    The difference is the only time those happend back then is when teams would both show up with ONE escort... who had a quasi spike build with 4 DHC. (I do remember you arguing that if a team had an escort at all no more then one was needed) The VAST majority of high end matches 2 years ago didn't go past the 30 min mark very often. (and I will agree that for the most part when they did it was high skill and crazy fun)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    Split your panda boys down the middle in terms of skill... and give one side 2 escorts and 3 nukes and the other 3 escorts and 2 nukes.

    Now lets take some bets on which side wins. lol

    The one with three nukes. That's why we run with three nukes.

    If you gave one team more than three nukes at the expense of burst, the team with three nukes would still probably win. ;)
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    shookyang wrote: »
    Then what? No one will ever die and matches will go on forever (worse than it already does now).

    http://imgur.com/SBU3v7f
    There have already been games that took forever, too much healing is a problem been around sense season 2.
    Noone.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    http://imgur.com/SBU3v7f
    There have already been games that took forever, too much healing is a problem been around sense season 2.

    Sweet, Jorfaid!

    Aw man, now I miss my engie :(
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    These mechanics increase depth and put more emphasis on player skill. Reducing both ends of the spectrum, or becoming less "yo-yo", would increase accessibility but would do so at the expense of a shallower game.

    Where the right point to aim for on this spectrum of depth vs. accessibility is a matter of debate -- entirely personal opinion. Here's what's not a matter of personal opinion: The fact that people are whining about both healing and burst shows that the game is pretty well balanced (excluding of course some obvious pay-2-win and I-win buttons). If Cryptic were to try to move the game towards some other point on that spectrum, there's no guarantee that they would be able to keep the current state of balance in the process. In fact, it would probably take a significant amount of trial and error to get back to the current level of balance at a new point in the spectrum.

    I think the S7/etc changes pushed the Yo-Yo element to extremes and actually broke the balance that existed...that skill element. That element where you watched, you waited, you struck. You timed your buffs around their buffs. You could fake them into using buffs, wait for them to drop, then actually strike. There was a metagame that existed that was pretty damn fun.

    S7/etc not only increased some base numbers either way, but it also increased the amount of RNG in the game.

    Look at some of the Nukara Rep Gear that's being added. Picture that FAW Refracted Tetryon group...the +10% Beam Accuracy, the 2.5% chance for the Tetryon damage bounce, the additional bonus to Tetryon from the 2pc, etc, etc, etc... add in some folks doing some Elite Phasers RNG - some folks doing some Elite Disruptors Phasers RNG...big ol' FAW RNG party of drunken spammage.

    A certain level of Yo-Yo - where that skilled play and timing can shine is awesome.
    The level of Yo-Yo and type of Yo-Yo that Cryptic is pushing...? Awesome? Balanced? Doesn't feel that way...
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    http://imgur.com/SBU3v7f
    There have already been games that took forever, too much healing is a problem been around sense season 2.

    How long did that go on for?!?!?
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    The one with three nukes. That's why we run with three nukes.

    If you gave one team more than three nukes at the expense of burst, the team with three nukes would still probably win. ;)

    Likely your right cause... yes after 3 nukes in a row the chances of anyone being alive are close to zero. :)

    This game revolves around one SKILL....

    to me that is unbalanced as hell.

    Why is Nuke so powerful ?

    Cause everything else is so powerful.

    Mind bending I know.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • skurfskurf Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I think the game is fairly balanced at the moment. The only issue that comes to mind is the large amount of energy weapon bleedthrough damage. I'm not sure where it's coming from or how it's happening, but in some matches my hull goes down faster than my shields. I can keep all facings at 80% and yet my hull will be down below 50% and I have no idea how its happening unless everyone on the other team is running DEM or something.
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Okay obviously this is a troll post, everything in the game is balanced. Move on.
    Noone.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    maybe this refers partly to my thread, which apparently wasn't read for understanding if theres a thread like this made. ya, i know im nerfing spike and resistance at the same time, that was very clearly the point :rolleyes:

    all those things would be brought down a notch together, so their functionality and balance does not change. but they are both extremes, and operator so far away from the effectiveness of whats in between, that everything else has been marginalized to death. nerfing both resistance and spike would lowers the arches on the yoyo graph, making whats in between more relevant. whats in between? everything having to do with cruisers and engineers basically.

    resistance levels wouldn't cancel out pressure as easily, tacs in escorts couldn't sit at res cap all by them selves, an engineers would have a more noticeable and useful amount of survivability again, hell they could apply pressure even. who wants that though, everything being somewhat useful :rolleyes:

    matches still take forever, thats not been made better. the margins for success and failure are closer then ever. every time they buff resistance, proc healing and spike, it makes SNB more powerful. it makes the difference between buffed and not buffed greater, and the spike will just kill more quickly do to the greater difference between buffed and not buffed. everything hinges more and more around it exclusively. does it make sense yet why i would nerf both spike and resistance yet?
  • bobtheyakbobtheyak Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    If you ask for 1 change to be made and then it happens, what are the knock on effects its gonna have?

    Knock on effects are necessary for the game's evolution. Some perceived imbalances can't be changed immediately so there have to be baby steps leading up to the eventual [perceived] balance in the long run.

    Agreed that any immediate major balance shift is bad for the game, but there have to be balance tweaks certain areas to make up for new Z-store items and ships being released, which would be much harder to change because Cryptic would lose money if they came out with mediocre goodies bought with Zen.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    A certain level of Yo-Yo - where that skilled play and timing can shine is awesome.
    The level of Yo-Yo and type of Yo-Yo that Cryptic is pushing...? Awesome? Balanced? Doesn't feel that way...

    It's a pretty obvious truth that the more yo-yo you have, assuming healing and damage increase at the same rate, the more skill intensive the game becomes. Healers need to be more on the ball to stop spike, and spikers need to be more on the ball to get past healing. Everyone needs to become more coordinated, and a single weak link or mistimed ability has an increasingly adverse effect on the team. There's no point where the game magically starts becoming less deep as it becomes more yo-yo. Unfortunately, PvP also continues to become less and less accessible.

    I hate to be brutally honest, but thinking that the game magically becomes less about skill play sounds like confirmation bias from someone who no longer has the skill to keep up.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zorandra wrote: »
    Okay obviously this is a troll post, everything in the game is balanced. Move on.

    Yeah I mean everyone knows beams are awesome, engineers are the class to be, and cruisers are the kings of the battlefield.

    Right?

    Right?

    Guys? Guys, come back!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    I hate to be brutally honest, but thinking that the game magically becomes less about skill play sounds like confirmation bias from someone who no longer has the skill to keep up.

    Likewise, I hate to be brutally honest - but somebody that doesn't understand the effect RNG has on reducing required skill...isn't somebody that understands skill.

    If you're not in control of something, ie it occurs because of RNG, then your skill didn't come into play.

    Consider the strikes on those gaps. Hrmmm, sometimes they work - sometimes they don't. Hrmmm, same thing done each time by both sides...why does it sometimes work and sometimes not work?

    Oh...RNG.

    Some say that doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results is a form of insanity...RNG counters that by saying that if you do the same thing over and over again while expecting the same results is a form of insanity.

    S7/etc increased RNG.
    LoR is going to increase RNG.

    RNG doesn't give a TRIBBLE about your skill, my skill, anybody's skill.
Sign In or Register to comment.