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EPTS + RCS = Bad or not as bad for cruisers?

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited April 2013 in PvP Gameplay
So with both the changes to EPTX abilities and RCS consoles, will this not be quite as bad for cruisers? Still a pain, but maybe not quite as terrible?

The biggest problem really lies with the fact that regardless, EPTS 1 will have to be their choice to use. Especially 2 if they want the least amount of time between them.

But I remember a lot of folks were saying that cruisers wouldn't have the turn to keep the weakened shield facings away. Now with the RCS changes, they might have a better turn so it wouldn't be as large of a problem.



I think that while this is good, it isn't still going to help very much. That cruiser who can't shake the escort off his tail might be turning more, but that escort will also have usage of greater turn possibly, and so it might not really help. Plus the necessity of having to use EPTS 1 because of shared cooldowns doesn't help either.

On top of that, while turning will be less of an issue for cruisers in general, broadsiding in PvP really doesn't help a whole lot still.



One bit of good news for sure though: Single cannon builds will be more viable on more ships. (If you like using those that is).

What do you all think? Are these two changes together not that bad for cruisers, or will little to nothing really change, or maybe even be worse?
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
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Post edited by mimey2 on

Comments

  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Think you have to separate the Star folks from the Assault folks in the discussion... not those cruisers specifically, but rather the type of play.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Honestly, put that way it seems even worse. I like cruisers because (for me at least) they're a big slab that are less about reflexes and timing and more about pre-planning and execution. I don't like seat of my pants flying; its a space whale not a starfighter. The EPTS nerf is frustrating enough as it screws up the 4-EPTx cycle (unless they've changed the global cooldown since I read last) and single A2B builds. So now the 'balancing fix' is to further take away from the space whale feel and make cruisers about reflexes and timing too? Well crud.

    PS
    Yes I know I'm not a PVPer and have different priorities than y'all. Doesn't mean I don't pay attention to this forum. This stuff affects everyone.
  • dilbartdilbart Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I think the RCS change was primarily for PVE'ers who expect the Galaxy to turn like an escort.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dilbart wrote: »
    I think the RCS change was primarily for PVE'ers who expect the Galaxy to turn like an escort.

    Maybe not an escort, but perhaps better than a moon.

    It still doesn't mean anything for feds really. Turn rate or not beams are still garbage. Single cannons aren't much better.
  • skywolf73skywolf73 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    every cruiser over 4 weapons slots should have a - drain from beam array weapons. since they supposed to be beam boats, make them excel at being beam boats. then they could adjust beams if needed but frankly i think they would be fine if the power drain was not so all over the place and having to have multiple skills to keep power levels up.

    the whole gap in empts for pve it means little or squat, npcs do not read your defense cycles while cloaked waiting to gank you with the alpha strike from hell in the gap of your buff cycle.

    empts is a last choice in your emergency powers for pve, weapons aux all are more important until a npc like a raptor escort nukes the heck out of you on elite difficulty, then it is time to pop empts. or just skip the shield it if it on shared with weapons and go aux to structure, or some hull resist buff, and you will be able to tank just fine if not even a tad better with at lest the base of it lasting 30 seconds if not the resist buff.

    if rcs makes cruisers turn better and well we can test that day one by grabbing my galaxy and some rcs consoles, and see if i can stand being in for more then 5 minutes the first time i have to do a 180 in stf. if they buff cruisers more than escorts that is a good thing for cruisers of they can turn get their firing arcs lined up and make getting more torps on some cruisers not not being stuck with beams simply because you cannot turn.

    the whole pve vs pvp is so broken in game anyway. space pve is joke ground pve is hell, pvp is a joke with resists going out of control and passive regens out the wazoo, 20 min one on one duels ending when someones hand gets tired of spamming a space bar is not fun. the amount of spike vs pressure bring useless, beams being useless in pvp. and so on.


    if cryptik were smart they would start at the base of the problem and halve all the resists in game for space, maybe even double them for ground. and start adjusting from there. cause the only other way to go is double the damage on weapons. hell triple it for beams then maybe beam boat and pressure dps would not be laugh worthy in pvp.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    As much as the change might benefit a Cruiser, it looks like, from my experimentation, it could also help Engineering based Escorts just as much.. Especially if there is a Tac involved in that Escort.

    The EPtX change is still a difficult one to judge. In one way it does give more reasons to not be self reliant and to want a healer with you. Helps make Escorts a little less tanky at least in the form of shield recovery and defense, but not touching their ability to speed tank.

    The EptX change hurt all slow turning ships (Carriers and Cruisers remember) and the RCS change, while nice, won't make as much of a difference from what I can tell truthfully.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
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  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    As much as the change might benefit a Cruiser, it looks like, from my experimentation, it could also help Engineering based Escorts just as much.. Especially if there is a Tac involved in that Escort.

    The EPtX change is still a difficult one to judge. In one way it does give more reasons to not be self reliant and to want a healer with you. Helps make Escorts a little less tanky at least in the form of shield recovery and defense, but not touching their ability to speed tank.

    The EptX change hurt all slow turning ships (Carriers and Cruisers remember) and the RCS change, while nice, won't make as much of a difference from what I can tell truthfully.

    From what I can tell, the RCS change is what has been asked for for ages. It is coupled with a change that cripples the very ship type that the RCS change is intended to help, with the net effect making the situation considerably worse.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I do no think that changing RCS from +1 to +2 for slow turners will make a miracle and they suddenly will be much better.

    I think I will rely more on EpTE to get out of trouble. After all 80+ impulse speed is fun, especially when it does ruin someones alpha.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I do no think that changing RCS from +1 to +2 for slow turners will make a miracle and they suddenly will be much better.

    I think I will rely more on EpTE to get out of trouble. After all 80+ impulse speed is fun, especially when it does ruin someones alpha.

    QFT

    Yes the rcs change is fantastic.... as long as the people playing the game start using there brains a little more.

    I have had cruiser players rage on me plenty over the last 3 years... and you know funny thing is in tells afterward in almost every case I would say why didn't you put all power to engines and get out of the way... they almost always say that don't work... then I say was your evasive manuvers on cool down ?... funny they always shut up after that.

    I won't argue that cruisers have been able to turn enough the last 3 years... the slowest cruisers are in a very bad way right now... this change will help them a lot though... most cruisers can slot 2 RCS units... and throw the Tach lobi uni console in one of there sci slots... and have more then enough turn to survive almost any alpha. If people start piloting there fat boats instead of just cruising in em. ;)

    Well played Dalnar... and for the record you have always been one of the harder cruiser/heavy sci boat players to alpha... cause your smart enough to not sit there and get hammered.
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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well, there is another important aspect of EpTE. You do not need to slot PH or APO to break tractors. YOu can simply break away with sheer force of your impulse speed. You won't be able to turn, but you can move past the 5km and break it. I think that is something a lot of people in cruiser underestimate. It worked before, it will work even better now.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The faster ship with the better turn will always be able to maintain the inside line on the slower ship with the slower turn...piloting skills being equal.

    Doesn't matter if it's cruiser/escort, two cruisers, two escorts, whatever...

    If you can't outpilot them, you either have to tank/heal it or use some ability/gear to dissuade them in some fashion.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The faster ship with the better turn will always be able to maintain the inside line on the slower ship with the slower turn...piloting skills being equal.

    Doesn't matter if it's cruiser/escort, two cruisers, two escorts, whatever...

    If you can't outpilot them, you either have to tank/heal it or use some ability/gear to dissuade them in some fashion.

    Yes but if you want to run, you always have the momentum of surprise before the enemy reacts. And we all know how much distance you can do in few seconds with some buffs.

    Also most players do a typical mistake of running away, instead running through the enemy formation, so they need to waste time to turn.

    Low inertia helps in this, as it can carry you further even if the buff expires, because your speed drops slower.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The faster ship with the better turn will always be able to maintain the inside line on the slower ship with the slower turn...piloting skills being equal.

    Doesn't matter if it's cruiser/escort, two cruisers, two escorts, whatever...

    If you can't outpilot them, you either have to tank/heal it or use some ability/gear to dissuade them in some fashion.

    In general true... however in the case of a half decent cruiser they don't need to break arc for an entire match... just have the wherewithal to do it for 5seconds when it matters.

    I think the main thing holding back a lot of ok cruiser pilots from being great players... is not understanding when to use there movement buffs. Really when was the last time you saw a cruiser pop an Evasive turn a facing they couldn't support. I see it from the the best of the best and that's it... its like most cruiser pilots have things on macro while there watching tv or something. ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Yes but if you want to run, you always have the momentum of surprise before the enemy reacts. And we all know how much distance you can do in few seconds with some buffs.

    Also most players do a typical mistake of running away, instead running through the enemy formation, so they need to waste time to turn.

    Low inertia helps in this, as it can carry you further even if the buff expires, because your speed drops slower.
    In general true... however in the case of a half decent cruiser they don't need to break arc for an entire match... just have the wherewithal to do it for 5seconds when it matters.

    I think the main thing holding back a lot of ok cruiser pilots from being great players... is not understanding when to use there movement buffs. Really when was the last time you saw a cruiser pop an Evasive turn a facing they couldn't support. I see it from the the best of the best and that's it... its like most cruiser pilots have things on macro while there watching tv or something. ;)

    There's little doubt that many of them need some basically piloting lessons. They don't have to do much in PvE...and in PvP - they're usually not thinking about it while they're worrying about other things. It puts them at a disadvantage.

    In the numerous threads out there that come up on turn - you ask some of them about doing a 3pt turn...and with their replies, you can picture the blank look on their faces.

    I recommend they try warp poo painting a target (NPC is fine while learning) while using EM or APO or EPS or EPtE or...yeah, basically just something that will get them familiar with just how much they can make a slow boat turn for a brief period. No, they're not going to be zipping about dogfighting in their barge - but - sometimes they just need to do it for a few seconds and it can do wonders.

    But yeah, the painting thing - I noticed certain cruiser pilots out there that could paint a target with EWP. That back and forth, almost sexual, as they painted the poo on the target. Others...well...a day later they might complete their turn. Could be the same build, same ship, same gear...just not a case of knowing what they could try to do in that short period.

    Again, it's not a long term answer - but they need to understand what they can do - cause odds are, the majority of Escort pilots they go up against won't have very good piloting skills either. Look at how many of those just all but slow down and stop, sitting there - blind to their surroundings as they focus on their target...oblivious to the world of hurt coming their way cause they're just sitting there.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    lol good visuals there.

    Reminds me of the first time I got in a Vorcha long ago... and noticed I could power slide and create rings of warp pee.

    Every time I see that green junk coming out the end... in my best yoda voice I would say "round the survivors a perimeter create" lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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