Beam Fire at Will power drain is completely broken (Dev post page 4, fix incoming)

graleron

I posted about it in the April 2nd patch notes thread, but realised that this is probably a better place to report it.

At the moment on Tribble I'm seeing much greater power drain from Beam Fire At Will than I do on Holodeck, to the point that at the end of the ten second cycle, I'm seeing my weapon power go down to the 30s from a starting point that is substantially over 125.

It seems to be worse when there are more targets around.

Is this intended behaviour?

Scenario:

Ship: Odyssey Tac Cruiser
Fore Weapons: Romulan rep experimental beam, Fleet advanced Antiproton beam arrays x3
Aft Weapons: Kinetic Cutting Beam, Fleet advanced Antiproton beam arrays x3
Normal weapon power: 109 before buffs and procs
EPS skill: 121 (power transfer rate 11.8/sec)
Scenario happens with buffs: EPTW1, or with EPTW1 and EPS Transfer III; Nadion Inversion does keep weapon power levels at a reasonable level
Tested with: Beam Fire at Will II

cryptkeeper0

I noticed this as well on my operation oddy

sohtoh

I have seen this as well. I used FAW-II with my Fleet Assault Cruiser.

Devil's Advocate: It could be possible that the drain is exactly the same as on Holodeck and its just the new UI on Tribble that enables us to view it properly.

ferdzso0

it might be that they fixed the experimental beam to drain power during FAW. because on holodeck the experimental beam does not drain weapon power when fired without a buff, nor if it is used with FAW. however with beam overload it does deal dmg. so they might have just fixed that bug

sohtoh

ferdzso0 wrote: »

it might be that they fixed the experimental beam to drain power during FAW. because on holodeck the experimental beam does not drain weapon power when fired without a buff, nor if it is used with FAW. however with beam overload it does deal dmg. so they might have just fixed that bug

I wasn't using the Experimental Beam Array, was using my Spiral Wave Disruptors. On Holodeck, while using FAW-II and Spiral Wave Disruptors, my Weapons Power display would go down to the 60s; on Tribble, it goes down to the 30s.

rsrobinson

The drain is now insane. My cruiser builds with good power management usually see power almost always in the green, sometimes barely dropping below 100. Today, power drops nearly to the bottom of the bar.

If I had to make a guess, your so-called 'fix' now causes the beam to drain on every shot that goes off. In other words, it fires at two targets, it is draining power twice.

As it stands, the ability is unusable.

marc8219

Thanks for the warning, I was going to set up a FAW beam cruiser today because of the suppposed "fix" to FAW, but now I guess I will hold off.

Just when I had my hopes up something like this had to happen:mad:

vesolc

Yep they are officially incompetent.

ursusmorologus

I have been playing with it on my beam boats and I suspect its working as intended. With the fix in place, we are making true shots on each target (we're getting damage bonuses and [Acc] bonuses on each target now), but we are also paying for the true shots with energy per shot as expected.

It didnt take much effort to adapt, just tweak the way you manage your firing sphere

antrenos

rsrobinson wrote: »

The drain is now insane. My cruiser builds with good power management usually see power almost always in the green, sometimes barely dropping below 100. Today, power drops nearly to the bottom of the bar.

If I had to make a guess, your so-called 'fix' now causes the beam to drain on every shot that goes off. In other words, it fires at two targets, it is draining power twice.

As it stands, the ability is unusable.

Previously, Fire-at-Will drained very little (if any) power. If you hit Beam Overload, it drains a massive chunk of power, for a single (albeit more powerful) beam. Why shouldn't firing multiple beams in rapid succession, drain power?

gstamo01

pretty sure it's working as intended

sohtoh

rsrobinson wrote: »

The drain is now insane. My cruiser builds with good power management usually see power almost always in the green, sometimes barely dropping below 100. Today, power drops nearly to the bottom of the bar.

If I had to make a guess, your so-called 'fix' now causes the beam to drain on every shot that goes off. In other words, it fires at two targets, it is draining power twice.

As it stands, the ability is unusable.

I did some testing. In a target rich environment, such as The Other Side, there is a massive drain. In ISE, where there are less targets, the drain is what it was previously. It does seem to support drain per target.

ursusmorologus wrote: »

I have been playing with it on my beam boats and I suspect its working as intended. With the fix in place, we are making true shots on each target (we're getting damage bonuses and [Acc] bonuses on each target now), but we are also paying for the true shots with energy per shot as expected.

It didnt take much effort to adapt, just tweak the way you manage your firing sphere

True shot or missed shot, the drain should be acting the same. You don't get to keep power simply because you missed.

antrenos wrote: »

Previously, Fire-at-Will drained very little (if any) power. If you hit Beam Overload, it drains a massive chunk of power, for a single (albeit more powerful) beam. Why shouldn't firing multiple beams in rapid succession, drain power?

Fire at Will already drained a good amount of weapon power; it now seems to be in overtime with the drain. Again, this is in a target rich environment.

The point is, it wasn't causing Fire at Will to bottom out your weapon power to 20 prior to the patch. It appears that rsrobinson, is correct. Fire at Will is applying the drain per target and not per application.

nicha0

There is no way its working as intended.
If you BFaW right now without an EPtW you drop to 0 weapons power
With EPtW to overcapped in the 30s
with EPtW and EPS in the 40s
Even Nadeon inversion is in the 90s.. its nuts

Completely ridiculous nobody even tested this.

spockmuncher

Hey Forums,

I've stayed pretty quiet with most things, this is one of my first posts on the forums. However today's patch has proven that you guys want to shoe-horn us into using cannons instead of beams, and forced me to make a post highlighting this.

I'm a Tactical Officer and run escorts, Im currently running an Aux2Batt beam build on my JHEC as my favourite build. I also primarily play PvE, my build was great for this (and not so great for PvP). I've played many roles in this game, Cannon Escort, Tank, Healer, etc.

Anyway, with my build before today's patch, Using only beams I have been able to keep my dps way above the average player who use cannons, on top of this, whenever I fired my weapons I was able to keep my weapon drain to around 70-80 with BFAW AT minimum WITHOUT using any skills and easily above 100 when using a full battery.

However today, while running stfs I saw some absolutely ridiculous power drain against ONLY 3-4 Enemies (I hate to image what it will be like against 7-10+).

Against ONLY 3-4 ENEMIES, with a full aux battery (and also with a weapon battery with additional A2B), my power levels would get to a shockingly low 25-30. I am fully spec'd to deal with these power drain issues, so this is not a build problem (as explained above with my power levels remaining high). The power drain was even worse without skills. And I tell you, it is noticeable.

Playing as a Cannonboat, I NEVER got as low as 90 on a volley running 4 DHC and 3 turrets, and cannons are supposed to be the biggest power draining weapon around! What. the. Hell. Add insult to injury, when using Scatter Volley, apparently they dont need to suffer the same distributed power share penalty as BFAW, Why exactly is this? Basic logic suggests it should.

Now, I'm not saying that this mechanic should be added at all, that would be terrible. But just why are beam users constantly handed a bad and crippled hand? Why is this? I really want an answer from a dev on this situation. If I want to play as a tact escort who focuses on dps, why should I be shoehorned into cannons, when I can achieve the same damage using beams previously. Furthermore, why should other people and their classes be shoehorned into using cannons on their builds as well if they want to do some damage. Not only this, but my threat inducing tank now deals significantly less damage due to the massive power drain on BFAW, how can I tank when I cant deal the damage to keep threat? A2B was one of the best ways to get around this issue, And not to mention ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE. But now we've just been slapped in the face again with another crippling nerf.

I don't want to get into a debate about playing your role or A2B is OP or any stuff like that. I just want to know why BFAW now drains around 160+ power against 3-4 enemies where cannons only drain around 70~ against the same amount or more enemies.

And whats the point of a complaint without a suggested solution. IMO, put the power drain back to what is was, there was nothing OP about it, and Cannon builds still managed to easily surpass the damage if spec'd and built right. If you were able to get enough money and knew enough about the game to deal the same damage or more using beams as a majority of the Cannon Escorts, why should we not be rewarded to be able to play like that?

Are you trying to hold player dps back? Make harder stfs for the elite players, dont make us weaker and force us into playing nerfed and gimped builds.

Over to sum up this change; unfair and untested.

I pray to all heavens this is just another bug or a late april fool's.

xapocalypseponyx

Updated Fire at Will:

Beam: Fire at Will is now capable of benefiting from weapon modifiers such as [Acc], [CrtH], etc.
The energy drain inflicted by Fire at Will activation now only happens if you are actually able to fire upon an enemy.

Okay, sounds great. Had a little time this evening to check out these changes. Joined in on a round of CSE and as soon as I hit BFaW, my jaw dropped.

I have a Tactical Odyssey running 8 Beam Arrays. Prior to this update BFaW + EPtW III left about 80 points in weapon power out of 125 after a firing cycle. Now, the same combination completely drains weapon power right down to zero (0). Same happens when popping a weapon battery or EPS power transfer.

A little testing seemed to indicate that this "problem" occurs when attacking multiple targets. Attacking a single target with BFaW, the drain was more than before (dropped to about 60), but not complete. As soon as another target comes into range, there goes the weapon power.

I just have to know, is this "working as intended"? I hope not, or my cruisers are going to the scrap yard.

kinmob

Ok, so since the patch something is wrong with fire at will...

Before the patch my weapon power never dipped below 100.

Now, whenever FAW is active I've seen it drop as low as 60....which nerfs the hell out of my dmg. I understand there is both a soft and hard cap (I've heard hard cap is 160ish).

Based off that I have +57 weapon power built into my ship (I set my weapon power to 25 I sit at 82/25 with no abilities active) so I used to overcome the massive beam drain using aux2bat build.

Can someone please explain to me how the hell I am dipping to 60 now when FAW goes off with eptw2 active???? how??? something is amiss, and I dont see it in the patch notes....I should be seeing less drain going off the notes....

This is a huge dps nerf and I cant believe it is working as intended.

cuatela

Well, let's look at your build.


You're running 8 beam arrays. Each of those probably has "to self: -10 Weapon Power when firing other weapons" on the tooltip, right? So your power drain should look like this if all weapons are firing:

First weapon: no power drain, total of 125
Second weapon: -10 power, total of 115
Third weapon: -10 power, total of 105
Fourth weapon: -10 power, total of 95
Fifth weapon: -10 power, total of 85
Sixth weapon: -10 power, total of 75
Seventh weapon: -10 power, total of 65
Eighth weapon: -10 power, total of 55

Okay, great... so if you fire all 8 beam arrays at once, you should drop to around 55 / 125. This is logical because beam arrays are energy weapons, and thus require energy. The more weapons, the more energy required.

Now, enter Beam: Fire at Will. For every beam array, you fire one beam at your target, and a second beam at a random target. This second beam is technically a separate weapon, so your power consumption is doubled. Now multiply that by 8. So with Beam: Fire at Will, your power consumption will look like this:

First weapon: no power drain, total of 125
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 115
Second weapon: -10 power, total of 105
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 95
Third weapon: -10 power, total of 85
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 75
Fourth weapon: -10 power, total of 65
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 55
Fifth weapon: -10 power, total of 45
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 35
Sixth weapon: -10 power, total of 25
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of 15
Seventh weapon: -10 power, total of 5
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of -15
Eighth weapon: -10 power, total of -25
- Secondary beam: -10 power, total of -35

Of course, since you can't actually have negative power, those last 3 beams just won't fire, or won't have any damage. Also, the drain of each beam only takes effect if the beam actually fires. But yes, if you try to fire 16 beams at once, you will run out of power.


please note, this post is entirely based on the assumption that fire at will doubles power use. I have not actually tested this, but you can by turning half your weapons off and seeing if your power still drops completely, or only drops to "normal" levels.

goaroli

I ve the same issues, massive weapon energy drain by using Fire at Will. I ve a purple doff for batteries, large weapon batteries & a red matter capacitor and my weapon power lvl also going down under 50 and lesser! Not even beam overload drains so many power. I ve a tactical & an engineer in a beamboat and both are effected in the same way. Only Nadion Inversion helps for very short time to resist the drain. Facit: beams are horrible to play now & I appeal to you Devs, please reset the changes of BFAW!!!!!!! I tossed vast sums of money in the game and had a lot of fun, but after this nerf, I really think about to stop playing STO.:(

stardestroyer001

If I ran only six beams, as opposed to the OP's eight beams, will the power drain still be significant?

bitemepwe

Calls of this appear to be coming in....

bitemepwe

A thread in the BOff section of the forums is going into this issue.

bitemepwe

goaroli wrote: »

I ve the same issues, massive weapon energy drain by using Fire at Will. I ve a purple doff for batteries, large weapon batteries & a red matter capacitor and my weapon power lvl also going down under 50 and lesser! Not even beam overload drains so many power. I ve a tactical & an engineer in a beamboat and both are effected in the same way. Only Nadion Inversion helps for very short time to resist the drain. Facit: beams are horrible to play now & I appeal to you Devs, please reset the changes of BFAW!!!!!!! I tossed vast sums of money in the game and had a lot of fun, but after this nerf, I really think about to stop playing STO.:(

Actually BO will drop your weapon power to 50.

stardestroyer001

This issue may be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I haven't run FAW in a while, but I was planning on running it before this Saturday. Judging by what I'm hearing, it just might be easier to stick with the Beam Overload I have set up.

I foresee cannons and turrets increasing in popularity with captains who want their ships to deal damage to multiple targets. Well, there goes the Star Trek feel.

ursusmorologus

Working correctly, IMO. Each beam in the BFaW is a real shot now, and you pay for a real shot now too. Keep the target list down to 2 or 3 and it will burn them up.

nicha0

Ran a half dozen STFs with this.. my damage is down about 35% or more

Average beam damage went from nearly 1100 to 600s with BFaW

Normal beam drain will drop me to 85ish with EPtW running

If I fire BFaW with no buffs, it drops weaons to 0
If I fire with EPtW down to about 30
If I fire with EPtW and EPS about 45, before it'd stay over 110
with EPtW and Nadeon Inversion it still drops down into the 90s, as opposed to sticking very near 125 before.

It feels like it drains more with more targets around, but its hard to tell, and the recycles on NI and EPS make it hard to really tell objective in the middle of a fight. Anyway, its completely broken and destroys the entire point of beams in the game.

It was hard enough keeping agro with BFaW will all the distributed damage, now its just a joke because it distributes nearly no damage at all. Might as well make the ability recycle match the Nadeon Inversion, its the only time it can be used.

Nobody testing this is really a bad move

stardestroyer001

I'm guessing, against cruisers with B:FAW, launching as much spam as you can would be the new tactic. :P

nicha0

ursusmorologus wrote: »

Working correctly, IMO. Each beam in the BFaW is a real shot now, and you pay for a real shot now too. Keep the target list down to 2 or 3 and it will burn them up.

If this is working as intended then lets make some changes to scatter volley to be equally realistic?

johnsteward

i got the same impression..


was hoping for some more dmg but somehow it now drains much more so in the end it seems like less dmg than without faw.. dont really see the reason for that.. as if cruiser/beams had a problem with dealing to much dmg^^

i like that mods now work with it but whatever was changed with it thats causing this extra drain pls change that part back ..

sohtoh

ursusmorologus wrote: »

Working correctly, IMO. Each beam in the BFaW is a real shot now, and you pay for a real shot now too. Keep the target list down to 2 or 3 and it will burn them up.

You said that before in the Bug section, but called it a true shot. So, I shall repeat, you still had a drain with a missed shot as you would have had with a real/true shot. You don't get weapon power back because you missed a shot.

The same beams that use FAW against a single target do not bottom out in weapon power, only when those same beams are used against multiple targets. The more targets FAW is used against, the more drain you get. The beams are firing the same amount of times against the single target as they are against multiple targets, the drain should be the same.

FAW is now adding extra drain per target.

It didn't do this before the patch, and shouldn't be doing it after the patch.

ursusmorologus

bitemepwe wrote: »

The same beams that use FAW against a single target do not bottom out in weapon power, only when those same beams are used against multiple targets. The more targets FAW is used against, the more drain you get.

As I have observed it, if you have 2 targets you stay above 125, if you have 3 you start dipping below 100 on some hits, and if you have 4 you start running low power.

But damage against 2-3 targets seems to be much better. So when you start dipping into low power of course the beams do less damage because beams need power. So keep to 2-3 targets and you burn them up, fire at a whole lot of targets and power goes through the floor and takes damage with it.

Maybe its bugged, I dunno, but it seems to be working like I would expect it to. It always felt weirdly artificial to me before.

spockmuncher

My thread explaining my experience here:

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=608911

Me wrote:

Hey Forums,

I've stayed pretty quiet with most things, this is one of my first posts on the forums. However today's patch has proven that you guys want to shoe-horn us into using cannons instead of beams, and forced me to make a post highlighting this.

I'm a Tactical Officer and run escorts, Im currently running an Aux2Batt beam build on my JHEC as my favourite build. I also primarily play PvE, my build was great for this (and not so great for PvP). I've played many roles in this game, Cannon Escort, Tank, Healer, etc.

Anyway, with my build before today's patch, Using only beams I have been able to keep my dps way above the average player who use cannons, on top of this, whenever I fired my weapons I was able to keep my weapon drain to around 70-80 with BFAW AT minimum WITHOUT using any skills and easily above 100 when using a full battery.

However today, while running stfs I saw some absolutely ridiculous power drain against ONLY 3-4 Enemies (I hate to image what it will be like against 7-10+).

Against ONLY 3-4 ENEMIES, with a full aux battery (and also with a weapon battery with additional A2B), my power levels would get to a shockingly low 25-30. I am fully spec'd to deal with these power drain issues, so this is not a build problem (as explained above with my power levels remaining high). The power drain was even worse without skills. And I tell you, it is noticeable.

Playing as a Cannonboat, I NEVER got as low as 90 on a volley running 4 DHC and 3 turrets, and cannons are supposed to be the biggest power draining weapon around! What. the. Hell. Add insult to injury, when using Scatter Volley, apparently they dont need to suffer the same distributed power share penalty as BFAW, Why exactly is this? Basic logic suggests it should.

Now, I'm not saying that this mechanic should be added at all, that would be terrible. But just why are beam users constantly handed a bad and crippled hand? Why is this? I really want an answer from a dev on this situation. If I want to play as a tact escort who focuses on dps, why should I be shoehorned into cannons, when I can achieve the same damage using beams previously. Furthermore, why should other people and their classes be shoehorned into using cannons on their builds as well if they want to do some damage. Not only this, but my threat inducing tank now deals significantly less damage due to the massive power drain on BFAW, how can I tank when I cant deal the damage to keep threat? A2B was one of the best ways to get around this issue, And not to mention ONE OF THE MOST EXPENSIVE. But now we've just been slapped in the face again with another crippling nerf.

I don't want to get into a debate about playing your role or A2B is OP or any stuff like that. I just want to know why BFAW now drains around 160+ power against 3-4 enemies where cannons only drain around 70~ against the same amount or more enemies.

And whats the point of a complaint without a suggested solution. IMO, put the power drain back to what is was, there was nothing OP about it, and Cannon builds still managed to easily surpass the damage if spec'd and built right. If you were able to get enough money and knew enough about the game to deal the same damage or more using beams as a majority of the Cannon Escorts, why should we not be rewarded to be able to play like that?

Are you trying to hold player dps back? Make harder stfs for the elite players, dont make us weaker and force us into playing nerfed and gimped builds.

Over to sum up this change; unfair and untested.

I pray to all heavens this is just another bug or a late april fool's.