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Damage Multiplier Debate

bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
edited April 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Please ignore post, I was wrong, everything is fine.

The abilities I'm talking about are the following:

Attack Pattern Alpha
Attack Pattern Omega
Go Down Fighting
Tactical Fleet
Emergency power to Weapons

These abilities are all damage multipliers. Now please do not misunderstand damage multipliers in general are a good thing. But the question of balance is should they be multiplying one another as well? Take the following example of having all 5 of the above active and assume they each were +50% damage for simplicity sake. One would think that your damage would then be increased by 250% from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 350 damage hit. That would be perfectly fine. That is also not how they work. Instead they all multiply one another and it becomes a 750% increase from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 850 damage hit.

Do tactical consoles work this way? Skill boosts? NO.

Remember how Cryptic stated the reason for all the passive sustain and skyrocketing tankyness of ships was related to spike being too powerful? Perhaps this is the reason why it is too powerful.

Look at emojoe videos. How does he achieve such high damage spikes that kill ships before stunlock wears off? This is how. This is why.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing? Is it reasonable that abilities multiply to this height when activated at the same time?
Post edited by bareel on

Comments

  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Works as it should...

    If they are going to change this they would have to...

    1) Add diminishing returns to shield resists. (do hull resists work this way ? defense ? nooo lol ;) )
    2) Increase cool downs on multiple heal skills including epts.
    3) Add new global cool downs on a few heals.

    I guess what I am saying is if you are going to gimp dmg in a game that is already ruled by healing... well that would be the end of it really.

    If dmg math changes then healing math need to change as well.

    Net change = nothing... so whats the point ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Works as it should...

    If they are going to change this they would have to...

    1) Add diminishing returns to shield resists. (do hull resists work this way ? defense ? nooo lol ;) )
    2) Increase cool downs on multiple heal skills including epts.
    3) Add new global cool downs on a few heals.

    I guess what I am saying is if you are going to gimp dmg in a game that is already ruled by healing... well that would be the end of it really.

    If dmg math changes then healing math need to change as well.

    Net change = nothing... so whats the point ?

    But that is just it nothing works like this except those abilities. Not as directly anyway. Shield resists stack additively they do not increase the effectiveness of each other directly.

    The only sole exception that that are heals that both heal and increase resistance which can be construed as being multiplicative in nature but that is countered by offensive abilities that can be construed as being multiplicative in nature with other offensive boosts such as cannon rapid fire.

    *sigh*
    Look everyone keeps saying they want more players in PvP, more balance between the classes and ship types, viable preasure damage, etc etc etc.

    That can never happen as long as someone can take abilities that would double damage output and instead get five, six, or even more times damage.

    *double sigh*
    And once again I'm not saying NERF these abilities or the damage they provide on their own. I'm just saying they should not multiply one another.
  • aldo1rainealdo1raine Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    The abilities I'm talking about are the following:

    Attack Pattern Alpha
    Attack Pattern Omega
    Go Down Fighting
    Tactical Fleet
    Emergency power to Weapons

    These abilities are all damage multipliers. Now please do not misunderstand damage multipliers in general are a good thing. But the question of balance is should they be multiplying one another as well? Take the following example of having all 5 of the above active and assume they each were +50% damage for simplicity sake. One would think that your damage would then be increased by 250% from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 350 damage hit. That would be perfectly fine. That is also not how they work. Instead they all multiply one another and it becomes a 750% increase from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 850 damage hit.

    Do tactical consoles work this way? Skill boosts? NO.

    Remember how Cryptic stated the reason for all the passive sustain and skyrocketing tankyness of ships was related to spike being too powerful? Perhaps this is the reason why it is too powerful.

    Look at emojoe videos. How does he achieve such high damage spikes that kill ships before stunlock wears off? This is how. This is why.

    Is this a bad thing or a good thing? Is it reasonable that abilities multiply to this height when activated at the same time?


    So you never want anyone to die? Cool story bro.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Nerf Klinks, Buff Rommies
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    But that is just it nothing works like this except those abilities. Not as directly anyway. Shield resists stack additively they do not increase the effectiveness of each other directly.

    The only sole exception that that are heals that both heal and increase resistance which can be construed as being multiplicative in nature but that is countered by offensive abilities that can be construed as being multiplicative in nature with other offensive boosts such as cannon rapid fire.

    *sigh*
    Look everyone keeps saying they want more players in PvP, more balance between the classes and ship types, viable preasure damage, etc etc etc.

    That can never happen as long as someone can take abilities that would double damage output and instead get five, six, or even more times damage.

    *double sigh*
    And once again I'm not saying NERF these abilities or the damage they provide on their own. I'm just saying they should not multiply one another.

    There's nothing to sigh about....

    You say you don't like that dmg buffs stack in a way that multiply each other... fine.

    Your right it doesn't work like the rest of the game mechanics your right.

    My point was if you read between the lines... there is lots of things in this game that don't work like the others... and that includes heal skills.

    You can't 3 years in completely remove the games dps... you can't improve the games pressure dmg by simply nerfing its spike can you ? (and yes of course it would be a nerf how would it not... one day the game is balanced on spikes of 20-30k dmg and the next no one can achieve 20k with out the most insanely luck based string of multiple crits you can imagine)

    IF and its a big if... the mechanic you don't like was to change... all the defensive mechanics that have been balanced around that mechanic would have to change is well.

    All your idea would do on its own... is force the entire game to play sci.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    There's nothing to sigh about....

    You say you don't like that dmg buffs stack in a way that multiply each other... fine.

    Your right it doesn't work like the rest of the game mechanics your right.

    My point was if you read between the lines... there is lots of things in this game that don't work like the others... and that includes heal skills.

    You can't 3 years in completely remove the games dps... you can't improve the games pressure dmg by simply nerfing its spike can you ? (and yes of course it would be a nerf how would it not... one day the game is balanced on spikes of 20-30k dmg and the next no one can achieve 20k with out the most insanely luck based string of multiple crits you can imagine)

    IF and its a big if... the mechanic you don't like was to change... all the defensive mechanics that have been balanced around that mechanic would have to change is well.

    All your idea would do on its own... is force the entire game to play sci.

    Did they always work like that though? I honestly don't know so yeah.

    And yes of course it would require a reduction to the current inherent tankyness that all ships have which wouldn't be a bad thing but then we get into messy details that can cloud the discussion. I am asking a very simple question being is it a good thing that the math works in the manner that it does. I think it is a very bad thing and has led us down the road of a constant inflation of defensive boosts to compensate for the uber stacked alpha of doom. Not to mention the Sci nerfs it has caused.

    But sure let us cloud the discussion, how would I nerf defense at the same time?

    1) Remove shield regen boosting from shield power.
    2) EPtS resist boost expires after 5 sec to match other EP abilities.

    BAM! Sustain gutted, Alpha nerfed, and over-all average resistances lowered. Healers/support more important, more abilities viable, and Sci damage can be re-boosted a bit.

    I would add leadership/borg 2 pc into that but they are already getting the nerf bat on tribble.
  • spherbspherb Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Sprinkles is that you?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,415 Bug Hunter
    edited April 2013
    aldo1raine wrote: »
    People who are not tac captains can never score any kills.

    ^^ suuuuuure.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    No it isn't. Just not the way it is. Simply put. Hope that cleared it up a bit for you!
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Abilities: Attack Pattern Alpha, Go Down Fighting, Attack Pattern Omega, Emergency power to Weapons
    Issue: The % damage bonuses are multiplicative with one another instead of additive. Two abilities both active giving +50% damage each increase damage by 125% instead of 100%. This strikes me as an oversight similar to when Tractor Beam Repulsars damage was boosted by two skills.


    Better?

    "correcting" something like this would require a total rebalanced of defense. at least a cutting in half of resistance, and nerfs to active healing. taking away the % buff would make tac's ability to deal damage best, like they should in all ships and every situation, about as unremarkable as an eng's ability to heal best is currently.

    hey i wouldn't necessarily be against that completely, it would make eng captains and cruiser damage less irreverent, but it would require a total overhaul of everything. dont get your hopes up, what we have currently still functions, mostly.

    apparently some people haven't noticed, but the balance between spike and healing is actually pretty good right now. it causes sci to be extreamly important too, instead of irreverent. there are several things still left out though, eng captains, and energy weapons that deal pressure damage. it would proboly be better to fix that, bring it up to par, then to nerf everything else around it.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited April 2013
    I agree with the rest of the PvP community that recognizes this as a terrible idea.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    But that is just it nothing works like this except those abilities. Not as directly anyway. Shield resists stack additively they do not increase the effectiveness of each other directly.

    *sigh*
    Look everyone keeps saying they want more players in PvP, more balance between the classes and ship types, viable preasure damage, etc etc etc.

    That can never happen as long as someone can take abilities that would double damage output and instead get five, six, or even more times damage.

    *double sigh*
    And once again I'm not saying NERF these abilities or the damage they provide on their own. I'm just saying they should not multiply one another.


    Care to tell us something about your premade pvp experience that you are drawing on for your conclusions?


    You can literally bounce off of a cross-healed target that has elite fleet shields even with APA + DHCs running.

    For all of the new sources of damage added, an even larger amount of passive resists and healing have been added.



    1 Sci using SNB to multiply the power of the entire team's focused fire (through buff stripping) on a single target is several orders of magnitude more powerful than 1 Tac stacking self-damage buffs could ever hope to be.


    And that's working as it should.

    Sci creates the opening, Tac exploits the opening.


    Removing tools players can use to exploit the opening doesn't actually help anyone.



    It bruises egos, it makes people sad, it makes others rant and rave; but ultimately someone has to face the business end of of a Subnuc > Stacked damage > Die. It's PvP, afterall.

    Otherwise it ends up in a perpetual stalemate and the first team to pass out at the keyboard loses.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    BAM! Sustain gutted, Alpha nerfed, and over-all average resistances lowered. Healers/support more important, more abilities viable, and Sci damage can be re-boosted a bit.

    I just caught this....

    Viable? You are making baseless statements if you think healers/support are not viable now.



    As antonio said, this game is ruled by healing.
  • edited April 2013
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    NOTE: RECENT TESTING HAS SHOWN THAT EPTW IS NO LONGER A FINAL MODIFIER.

    So for one of my guys:

    Attack Pattern Alpha (APA3) +47.1%
    Attack Pattern Omega (APO1) +14.2%
    Go Down Fighting (GDF3) +24.9%
    Tactical Fleet (TFleet2) +30.0%
    Emergency power to Weapons (EPtW1) +10.0%

    Common Polaron Beam Array Mk X*
    9 Weapons Training
    9 Energy Weapons Training
    Frictive Force (+2%)
    4x Polaron Phase Modulator Mk XI (+26.2%)
    2pc Jem'Hadar Space Set Mk XI (+8.1%)

    Base Beam Array - 100
    Weapons Training - 49.5
    Energy Weapons Training - 49.5
    Mark - 100
    Rarity - 0
    Accolade - 2
    2pc Set - 8.1
    Console - 104.8

    Modified Base - 413.9

    125 Weapon Power (*2.5): 1034.75 (close enough to the tooltip damage of 1035.3, eh?)

    w/ APA3 (*1.471): 1522.1 (1523.4)
    w/ APO1 (*1.142): 1181.7 (1182.3)
    w/ GDF3 (*1.249): 1292.4 (1293.1)
    w/ TFleet2 (*1.3): 1345.2 (1265.3) This is not providing a +30% bonus**.
    w/ EPtW1 (*1.1): 1138.2 (1060.3) This is not providing a +10% bonus***.

    w/ APA3 & APO1 (*1.471*1.142): 1738.3 (1670.4)
    w/ APA3 & APO1 (*.471 + *.142): 1669.1 (1670.4)

    The second is correct - not the first, eh? So it's not multiplicative - it's additive.

    w/ APA3 & GDF3 (*1.471*1.249): 1901.1 (1781.2)
    w/ APA3 & GDF3 (+*.471 + *.249): 1779.8 (1781.2)

    The second is correct - not the first, eh? So again, it's not multiplicative.

    Finally, because I'm not going to bother with either TFleet/EPtW (broken ** & ***).

    /w APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 (*1.471*1.142*1.249): 2171.1 (1928.2)
    /w APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 (*.471 + *.142 + *.249): 1926.7 (1928.2)

    Again, depending on where the rounding was done, etc - the second is correct. So it's additive and not multiplicative.

    Okay, I wasn't going to do EPtW1*** because the number is off - but here:

    Damage (1035.3)
    + EPtW1 (1060.3) - so that's ~2.4%

    Damage (1035.3)
    + APA3 (1523.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 (1670.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 (1928.2)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 & EPtW1 (1974.8)

    Tada, EPtW is a multiplicative modifier. The difference between the last one and the one before it is ~2.4%. However, those before - they're additive.

    Hrmm, what about Tac Fleet 3**?

    Damage (1035.3)
    + APA3 (1523.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 (1670.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 (1928.2)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 & TFleet3 (2128.4)

    That's not multiplicative - it's not the ~*1.22 one would have seen from the TacFleet**. However, it is close to what it would be if they were all additive.

    Okay, so yeah - the whole kit 'n caboodle then:

    Damage (1035.3)
    + APA3 (1523.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 (1670.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 (1928.2)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 & TFleet3 (2128.4)
    + APA3 & APO1 & GDF3 & TFleet3 & EPtW1 (2179.8)

    Which works out to the non-EPtW1 amount with the ~2.4%. So yes, EPtW1 is multiplicative of the other numbers - but the others are additive.

    So where you say:
    bareel wrote: »
    These abilities are all damage multipliers. Now please do not misunderstand damage multipliers in general are a good thing. But the question of balance is should they be multiplying one another as well? Take the following example of having all 5 of the above active and assume they each were +50% damage for simplicity sake. One would think that your damage would then be increased by 250% from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 350 damage hit. That would be perfectly fine. That is also not how they work. Instead they all multiply one another and it becomes a 750% increase from normal or a 100 damage hit becomes a 850 damage hit.

    You are correct in saying it is not: Damage + APA + APO + GDF + TFleet + EPtW. It's not 100+50+50+50+50+50 = 350.

    However, it is not: Damage * (1+APA) * (1+APO) * (1+GDF) * (1+TFleet) * (1+EPtW). It's not 100*1.5=150*1.5=225*1.5=337.5*1.5=506.25*1.5=759.4... (not sure where you got the 850 damage from, it's as if you added 100 into the damage after doing the multiplier - after rounding down for a rough number).

    Still, it's neither 350 nor 760 damage.

    It would be: ((100+50+50+50+50)*1.5)=450

    APA, APO, GDF, TFleet = additive
    EPtW = multiplicative

    EPtW is not a Tac ability.

    So like thissler said:
    thissler wrote: »
    No it isn't. Just not the way it is. Simply put. Hope that cleared it up a bit for you!

    *I originally tried to do it with the following two weapons:

    Phased Polaron Cannon Mk XII [Acc][CrtH]
    Polaron Turret Mk XI [Acc][CrtD][CrtH]


    But they did not follow your post where you explained the formula...not sure what's up with that. Not sure if it was the base damage for Cannons/Turrets or perhaps the rarity? It worked for a Common Beam Array both Mk X and Mk XI.

    **It is only applying the Tactical Fleet I bonus of +22%, not the Tactical Fleet 2 bonus of +30%. Same occurs for other weapons. Tactical Fleet is broken.

    ***This is only applying ~2.2 to 2.4% instead of 10%. This is a known issue that has already been addressed on Redshirt and should hopefully find its way to Holodeck on Thursday, eh?
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    /facepalm

    Just retested, virus is correct I be wrong. I swear last time I tested it did not work this way.

    Sorry to waste everyone's time will edit OP.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    bareel wrote: »
    Sorry to waste everyone's time

    I don't think it's a waste of time. I think we all need a better understanding of some of the underlying mechanics behind everything. I'm grateful for your help in that other thread explaining where the consoles et al came into play in determining the damage. I couldn't have made that post without having read your other post first.

    Folks can try to search the forums, and they may or may not find the info that they're looking for - but it's something I believe, that the math we do know - the mechanics we do know - should be part of some stickied thread or be on STOwiki (or both).

    Heck, think about that discussion taking place about shields and diminishing returns - or - the one over in the Tribble notes where Bort gives us information on how stealth works? There are countless threads spread all over the place that quickly get buried by discussions about everything else...where the nitty gritty could be found.

    If that information were readily available, it would also be easier to test things and to point out where things simply are not working...or to say, "Hey, uh Cryptic - you uh, you uh, expecting this to do...er...this?" and it would not be a case of coming back weeks later with the PvE folks crying that the PvP folks are always getting the game nerfed because Cryptic implemented something that was nowhere near WAI/WAD.

    No doubt, there are folks out there that have no problem with just using their pinkytoe to press their spacebar and killing everything over in PvEland...there are those that want to know every little detail. There should be some middle-ground, eh?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Because, it also helps understand some of the underlying math in whether the Eng is needed - what the Eng can do in damage compared to the Tac, etc, etc, etc.

    Tac - APA, GDF, TacFleet(as long as there is a Tac, it would apply to both)
    Eng - EPS, NI, TacFleet(as long as there is a Tac, it would apply to both)
    Both - APO, EPtW

    Given that each Weapon Power over 50 is worth 2% damage - one should be able to look at how the drain for the Tac might be offset some by the overcapping/drain resistance from the Eng.

    Considering how the math works as well (sticking with beams because they're so easy)...

    Common Mk X Beam Array w/ 9 Weapon Training & 9 Energy Weapons

    Base 100
    +Mark 100
    +WT Skill 49.5
    +EW Skill 49.5

    =Modified Base 299

    @125 Power 747.5

    +APA (~50%) 1121.3
    +GDF (~50%) 1495

    @115 Power 687.7

    +APA (~50%) 1031.6
    +GDF (~50%) 1375.4

    @105 Power 627.9

    +APA (~50%) 941.9
    +GDF (~50%) 1255.8

    @95 Power 568.1

    +APA (~50%) 852.1
    +GDF (~50%) 1136.2

    @85 Power 508.3

    +APA (~50%) 762.5
    +GDF (~50%) 1016.6

    @75 Power 448.5

    +APA (~50%) 672.8
    +GDF (~50%) 897

    The Eng on the other hand, while still doing less damage than the Tac during those buff periods (they do the same outside of them, which is about 73% or more of each 15 minute period - it's the buff period during the gap created that's important for the kill), would be doing a certain amount less damage.

    A Tac could run EPtW if they didn't want to run dual EPtS. They could use a Wep Battery if they didn't mind putting other batteries on CD.

    That changed with the Omega Weapon Amplifier and Marion the DEM DOFF. In creating those, Cryptic threw any sort of balance out the window. The balancing factor for the higher Tac damage from abilities was that drain. The balancing factor for the lower Tac damage was overcapping/resistance from the drain.

    To an extent, they gave Tac the Eng abilities again - obviously not the exact abilities, but it should be clear what they did. Kind of like the SNB DOFFs, eh? Giving everybody that Sci Captain ability, they've given folks a jury-rigged form of NI as well as a proc EPS/NI.

    To an extent, it's along the lines of all the defensive power creep. The fragility was a balancing factor for the higher damage of the Escort. Over time, they're not as fragile - they keep getting bumped in the defense. Well, that's okay, right? Then maybe they're boosting the damage for Cruisers?

    Just like the Tac benefits the most OWA/Marion - the damage creep in the game actually favors Escorts more.

    It's one of the reasons that I'm not one of the nerf Tac/Escorts guys. Neither Tac nor Escorts need to be nerfed. All the power creep and mudflation TRIBBLE that affects them best and/or offsets some of the balancing that was in place for what they could do...that's what needs to be looked at.

    X <---> Y

    Say that's where it was, with X being Tac (or Escort) and Y being Eng (or Cruiser)...

    X <
    > Y

    Is not a factual representation by any means, but with all the TRIBBLE that they continue to add to the game - as long as it benefits one Captain and one Class of Ships more than the others...then that TRIBBLE gap is just going to keep growing.

    So why don't they just add a DOFF with APA for Eng or Sci, eh? Well, they don't do that (both the Eng and the Sci can use either the DEM DOFF or the SNB DOFF - they just don't get as much out of them). They'd add an APA DOFF - and - tada, the Tac would get the most out of it.

    And it's funny, because look at how many of the suggestions to change Eng...are to further boost the Tac. Not the Sci, mind you - no, those suggestions would mainly boost the Tac - increasing damage and decreasing their fragility.

    So yeah, why the various abilities of themselves may have played out fine in this thread - doesn't mean that things aren't way off in STO and only getting worse in regard to both Tac and Escorts...but not because of either the Tac or Escort...rather, because of all the other TRIBBLE.
  • seansamurai1seansamurai1 Member Posts: 634 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Its easy to negate those sort of strikes anyway, at least minimise the damage to a quickly healable level.

    The smart tacs are the ones who wait.
    Smart tacs with cloak hit a buff to see what the other persons reaction is.
    Get them to pop skills to soon, then hit them.

    The other thing with that amount of damage is it tails off quite fast then to get that much power back, you have 4 minutes to wait.
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