The ranking system on this game has never made sense to me for the simple fact you top off at Admiral/General. As a retired Navy person I can tell you for a fact that admirals/generals do not command ships as the norm. Now I know there are gonna be those who will cite Capt Kirk and a couple other admirals in the Star Trek Universe who did, you can also give historical examples of real life admirals doing the same thing. But it wasn't the norm for Star Trek nor is it the norm for the real world. In my 30 years of service I got to meet/see one Vice Admiral and can count the number of times I saw the Fleet Admiral (RA LH), whichever Fleet I was with at that time, on one hand. So in 30 yrs of service I got to see a total of 3-4 admirals. The reason for this is because there just isn't that many of them and for the fact they weren't on any of the ships. The Fleet Admiral does have a flagship but he's rarely on it and when he is he isn't in charge the Capt is. So if its not the norm why did they make it so we top out at Admiral/General? My only guess is the Devs thought it would be cooler to be an Admiral but the only thing it accomplished by having so many admirals was diminish the rank.
Here's how I think the ranking system should go -
Cadet - We have academies why not use them at this rank to do the tutorials. We could run through the holodecks and learn what is needed to play.
Midshipman - This will be the part where we put to use what we learned at the academy. Instead of a borg invasion I believe we should start out facing the folks we are at war with and save the Borg for later in the game.
Ensign - Get your 1st ship, a frigate.
Lt Junior Grade - I've seen this rank used in Star Trek and was wondering why it was left out.
Lt
Lt Comm
Comm
Capt
You could still have 10 lvls between each rank but you'd top off at the more credible rank of Capt. If folks still want to be an Admiral/General then give this as an award for veteran status. I believe they should add the rank of commodore if they did this, so say starting at 400 days you'd get to cap one of your Capt's to commodore, 500 days you get another cap option to either cap your Commodore to RA LH or promote one of you other Capt characters to Commodore. So every 100 days you could promote one of your characters etc so on and so forth.
Of course we here on the red side would have the Klingon equivalance of the ranks I suggested.
Plus, it'll just get goofier as, as "Admirals", we continue to be pushed around by these random peons giving us quests. Still, retroactively changing everything is a major step, since everyone's costume pieces then have to be retroactively fixed. Although even just slipping in the missing LtJg rank would effectively bump everyone down a step.
Somebody has brought this up elsewhere, and I do wholeheartedly agree as a military guy and a Star Trek fan. The IP backs it up across the TV shows. Kirk took over the Enterprise as an Admiral because he was the senior person aboard during crises, as Spock pointed out citing Starfleet regulations. But when it's all done, command and control returns to the actual Captain.
But all across Star Trek, we've seen lots of admirals working out of a starbase or something. Example: Miserable Admiral Kirk overseeing cadet training on some Starbase, clearly missing his days as a Captain of the Enterprise. Or, if the admiral was in charge of a fleet, then he picks out a ship to command the fleet out of (Flagship). Example: The Admiral in charge of the fleet that took on the Borg Cube at Wolf 359.
Admiral (Starfleet) and General (KDF) should be a rarity. If anything, that rank should only be available to a fleet leader in the game, along with the appropriate rank pips / devices and uniform accessories of the rank.
The actual title wearable to all other max level players should be limited to Captain.
I had to laugh doing the Dominion FES when Shon orders you to do stuff. I outrank you by three grades you insubordinate smurf!
Anyway, this is really a role play issue more than a game mechanic issue. I've already changed most of my uniforms to show Captain rank insignia. If you could set in your "Edit Record" screen what rank you want NPCs to use when addressing you, I'd be happy with that.
The lowest rank at which it makes sense to command a ship would be Lt. Cmdr. (hence the 'Commander' part of the rank.) And the maximum rank should be Captain, or posibbly some kind of 'Senior' or 'Post' Captain. (Not 'Fleet Captain', which is another thing entirely.)
So - 3 or 4 ranks only. Which says nothing about how many levels there would be.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
In time of war particularly, whosoever holds the highest commissioned rank is in command of a ship. Even a freshly minted Ensign could be left in command of a small ship full of crewmen and NCOs, if that's what's necessary. From what I remember of the tutorial (granted it's been a while), this is essentially how you wind up in command of your little starter ship despite being a mere lieutenant ?*everybody above you died. To cite an example from elsewhere in fiction, Bright Noa is left in command of White Base despite being a lowly ensign/lieutenant (paygrade O1). He was literally the only commissioned officer left alive, and therefore in command. He wasn't relieved by a higher ranking officer because the EFSF didn't have a lot of seasoned officers to go around, and they considered White Base disposable. You also have the example of Watters being given command of the Valiant despite being a mere cadet (he got a field commission from Ramirez before he died, but still).
The old game "Klingon Academy" (which I'm sure people remember, especially thanks to Christopher Plummer's wonderful performance) made it clear that the reward for passing the tests of command schoold was innedeate command of a starship.
While STO is a different game, something similar could certainly be used in this game for player characters:
They have done extraordinary deeds and there thus rewarded with a command.
Also the basic B'rel BoP (in terms of crew) would be the equivalent of a "Fast Attack Craft", which were actually commanded by lieutenants.
So lieutenant as a starting level would also work pretty well IMO.
I'd like to propose a change to the Klingon rank structure of a different sort:
The Klingon rank structure is a bit fuzzy but from what we've seen the majority of times, it would actually work a lot better if it had an army-style system.
We've seen lieutenant Klag as a second in command to a captain in TNG:"A Matter of Honor" we've seen Colonel Worf and Brigadier Kerla in Star Trek 6.
So why not an army structure instead, that ends with the equivalent to the navy captain (NATO OF-5) at colonel?
In time of war particularly, whosoever holds the highest commissioned rank is in command of a ship. Even a freshly minted Ensign could be left in command of a small ship full of crewmen and NCOs, if that's what's necessary. From what I remember of the tutorial (granted it's been a while), this is essentially how you wind up in command of your little starter ship despite being a mere lieutenant ?*everybody above you died. To cite an example from elsewhere in fiction, Bright Noa is left in command of White Base despite being a lowly ensign/lieutenant (paygrade O1). He was literally the only commissioned officer left alive, and therefore in command. He wasn't relieved by a higher ranking officer because the EFSF didn't have a lot of seasoned officers to go around, and they considered White Base disposable. You also have the example of Watters being given command of the Valiant despite being a mere cadet (he got a field commission from Ramirez before he died, but still).
Yes in times where an ensign or higher is the only survivng officer then yes they will assume command. And I can see the lower ranks commanding the smaller ships like frigates and light cruisers. It is common for an Ensign or Lt to be in command of a frigate, light cruisers a Lt or Lt Comm, Medium crusiers Lt Comm or Commander. Heavy cruisers, battle ships, carriers and anything of that caliber and size you won't find anything lower than the rank of Capt, or anything above that rank commanding those ships either.
The lowest rank at which it makes sense to command a ship would be Lt. Cmdr. (hence the 'Commander' part of the rank.) And the maximum rank should be Captain, or posibbly some kind of 'Senior' or 'Post' Captain. (Not 'Fleet Captain', which is another thing entirely.)
So - 3 or 4 ranks only. Which says nothing about how many levels there would be.
It actually depends on ship size on what rank you will find commanding said ship, at least in the US Navy. Some of the smaller vessels are commanded by ensigns but when you get to carriers, which are the lead ship of the battle group, you wont find anything lower than capt commanding it nor will you see any rank above that either.
The US Navy had a high capt rank which was changed to commodore then later done away with. But I see no reason why the rank of commodore couldn't be inserted as per the conditions I stated in my original post. I think it would be appropriate to award the ranks higher than capt to those who have veteran status by their number of days of playing.
The old game "Klingon Academy" (which I'm sure people remember, especially thanks to Christopher Plummer's wonderful performance) made it clear that the reward for passing the tests of command schoold was innedeate command of a starship.
While STO is a different game, something similar could certainly be used in this game for player characters:
They have done extraordinary deeds and there thus rewarded with a command.
Also the basic B'rel BoP (in terms of crew) would be the equivalent of a "Fast Attack Craft", which were actually commanded by lieutenants.
So lieutenant as a starting level would also work pretty well IMO.
I'd like to propose a change to the Klingon rank structure of a different sort:
The Klingon rank structure is a bit fuzzy but from what we've seen the majority of times, it would actually work a lot better if it had an army-style system.
We've seen lieutenant Klag as a second in command to a captain in TNG:"A Matter of Honor" we've seen Colonel Worf and Brigadier Kerla in Star Trek 6.
So why not an army structure instead, that ends with the equivalent to the navy captain (NATO OF-5) at colonel?
I like that idea of using the army ranks that match the naval ones since it appears thats what the Klingons use anyway.
As has been pointed out, it's more an RP thing; and when I'm in that kind of mood my KDF character is the kind of guy who'd give himself a rank like 'Brigadier General' even if nobody else would.
I do hate being an Admiral on the Fed side though.
I use titles and rank insignia to try and work around it; but NPCs and the game UI just love to remind me that I'm deluding myself.
As has been pointed out, it's more an RP thing; and when I'm in that kind of mood my KDF character is the kind of guy who'd give himself a rank like 'Brigadier General' even if nobody else would.
I do hate being an Admiral on the Fed side though.
I use titles and rank insignia to try and work around it; but NPCs and the game UI just love to remind me that I'm deluding myself.
To me its more than just an RP thing. I can remember way back in my creative writing class my instructor telling me that if I was writing a sci fi story I had to include elements of believability into it to lend it a bit of credibility. If not and you went too far out there with it then the reader would be put off so to speak and the story wouldn't be received well. Having us top out at admiral takes away from the credence of the MMO world Cryptic has built making it less palatable to the players.
At least Brigadier General is less of a glaring thing than all the feds being called a Admiral since there appeared to be more Generals doing work from the bridge of a starship, Martok was a General and commanded a single ship after he was freed from the Dominion prison camp so its at least feasible that a B.General could be in command of a single ship within the KDF.
are carrier battle groups not commanded by an admiral? yes, i understand that that's not just one ship, but when he commands a CBG, is he not also in command of his flagship?
edit: also, the command structure in star trek's universe is clearly different than that of modern militaries...i.e. i'd doubt that you'd see a lieutenant commanding a ship of the line...even a small one. also, in the modern military, (you'll have to confirm/deny this, because while i'm relatively sure, i'm not positive) there's a limit to the number of admirals there can be at any given moment, yes? *walks around esd, watching the crowds of admirals*
after-shower-edit: and for the record: i agree. having everyone be a vice admiral is weird. my suggestion would be something like this. section 13 and their klingon analogue (i dunno...klingon intelligence? i know they have to have a secret police or something) recruit us early on in our carreers (i know feds get missions where sec13 comes into play pretty hard, not sure on klink), and they give us ranks that're roughly equivalent to the current rank structure, but are named differently, and are technically outside and a step up from the typical starfleet/klink chain of command. it would explain why we're able to refuse missions from admirals. how we're able to form our own fleets outside of starfleet's chain of command. why we can never be demoted. probably some other stuff as well.
are carrier battle groups not commanded by an admiral? yes, i understand that that's not just one ship, but when he commands a CBG, is he not also in command of his flagship?
edit: also, the command structure in star trek's universe is clearly different than that of modern militaries...i.e. i'd doubt that you'd see a lieutenant commanding a ship of the line...even a small one. also, in the modern military, (you'll have to confirm/deny this, because while i'm relatively sure, i'm not positive) there's a limit to the number of admirals there can be at any given moment, yes? *walks around esd, watching the crowds of admirals*
after-shower-edit: and for the record: i agree. having everyone be a vice admiral is weird. my suggestion would be something like this. section 13 and their klingon analogue (i dunno...klingon intelligence? i know they have to have a secret police or something) recruit us early on in our carreers (i know feds get missions where sec13 comes into play pretty hard, not sure on klink), and they give us ranks that're roughly equivalent to the current rank structure, but are named differently, and are technically outside and a step up from the typical starfleet/klink chain of command. it would explain why we're able to refuse missions from admirals. how we're able to form our own fleets outside of starfleet's chain of command. why we can never be demoted. probably some other stuff as well.
Yes there is a Fleet Admiral in charge of the battle group and yes he does have a flagship but he is not in command of his own flagship the Capt is. The Admiral is more of a VIP passenger who rarely comes aboard the Flagship. It isn't unusual for them to fly over the Pacific or Atlantic rather than make the crossing by ship. They don't spend much time out to sea and to be fair they have more than earned that right, they spend most of their time being diplomats when the battle group is on a 6mo cruise.
If you read the books and follow the movies and TV series closely you'll notice the closely follow our modern naval command structure. They use the same ranks as the ones I gave in my 1st post, why Cryptic deviated from this I don't know.
I think Cryptic did the rank structure the way they did to give the players a sense of accomplishment. Personally, I too would have been fine with the rank cap being that of Captain but allow the level to continue. I could see the Lt rank given command of a ship for the purpose of the arduous system patrols. Even the first two missions "Stranded in Space" and "Diplomatic Orders" would make sense. After all, what could go wrong on a rescue mission and a diplomatic courier mission? After that, you are being sent to the "front lines" as it were. They are talking about increasing the level cap to full Admiral. I do wish the npc would call you by your title but then it would be weird to see "Thank you for you help Moist Player."
Alot of people I know (all 3 of them...including me) would rather restructure the ranks so we cap out at captain. I would say some devs probably even support this, but for whatever reason we get what we have.
the way I see it, by now I should atleast be on the Klingon High Council, even being an Orion simply due to all of the powerful people in the Empire who owe me a favor (Pretty much everyone).
Another former Navy man checking in. I agree that (US) naval ranks from midshipman to captain make much more sense. Sure, carrier battle group commanders are admirals, but the carrier itself is still (typically) commanded by an O-6 captain. Pets or no, no one here is actually commanding a battle group in space. Leave "Commodore" as a lifer/veteran reward title or something. And (US) army rank equivalents for the KDF work out well, too.
And given that the captain of a ship is referred to as Captain whether they are lieutenants or commanders or captain, I do wish the dialogs on the fed side would reflect that. On the KDF side I don't care what they call me, I just wish they wouldn't drop my cloak. :mad:
And is its a US Navy tradition to beat dead horses?
Yes this has been discussed many times on the forums to no avail. But I'll keep bringing it up because it's these little idiosyncrasies in the game that do it harm when totaled up. I remember being on here shortly after launch and witnessing players leaving in droves because the game wasn't trekkie enough. Maybe if Cryptic would've listened to their players back then they wouldn't have had to resort to the lock boxes.
Well in the KDF since we are at the KDF we know Generals do command starships, Martok was given the command of the IKS Rotarran.
So you cannot use US Navy ranks as a excuse, they command Starships leading to a de-synch of KDF ranks and Federation ranks were Feds would top as Captains and KDF would top as generals.
If you want to bring back this dead horse to beat it, do it outside the Klingon forums because Klingon Generals do not fly desks ... they command ships.
If you would have read the whole of this forum post you would've known we all agreed it was proper to use army ranks for the KDF.
And unless you're 12 yrs old no one else thought being a general was cool, Colonel was chosen as the rank to top out at.
And ill post whatever I want on the forums despite what you think I should do. You sound more like a Fed forum troll than you do a KDF player.
I'm also of the mindset that Captain should have been the cap for the current levels. The Rear Admiral/Brigadier General ranks might make some sense when they start releasing some of the content they have discussed (commanding more than one ship).
I would have preferred to see the Admiral and General rank titles limited to persons with top-rank player Fleet positions, actually.
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]'Iw HaH je Hoch! ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3 A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome. Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.
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But all across Star Trek, we've seen lots of admirals working out of a starbase or something. Example: Miserable Admiral Kirk overseeing cadet training on some Starbase, clearly missing his days as a Captain of the Enterprise. Or, if the admiral was in charge of a fleet, then he picks out a ship to command the fleet out of (Flagship). Example: The Admiral in charge of the fleet that took on the Borg Cube at Wolf 359.
Admiral (Starfleet) and General (KDF) should be a rarity. If anything, that rank should only be available to a fleet leader in the game, along with the appropriate rank pips / devices and uniform accessories of the rank.
The actual title wearable to all other max level players should be limited to Captain.
Anyway, this is really a role play issue more than a game mechanic issue. I've already changed most of my uniforms to show Captain rank insignia. If you could set in your "Edit Record" screen what rank you want NPCs to use when addressing you, I'd be happy with that.
So - 3 or 4 ranks only. Which says nothing about how many levels there would be.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
The old game "Klingon Academy" (which I'm sure people remember, especially thanks to Christopher Plummer's wonderful performance) made it clear that the reward for passing the tests of command schoold was innedeate command of a starship.
While STO is a different game, something similar could certainly be used in this game for player characters:
They have done extraordinary deeds and there thus rewarded with a command.
Also the basic B'rel BoP (in terms of crew) would be the equivalent of a "Fast Attack Craft", which were actually commanded by lieutenants.
So lieutenant as a starting level would also work pretty well IMO.
I'd like to propose a change to the Klingon rank structure of a different sort:
The Klingon rank structure is a bit fuzzy but from what we've seen the majority of times, it would actually work a lot better if it had an army-style system.
We've seen lieutenant Klag as a second in command to a captain in TNG:"A Matter of Honor" we've seen Colonel Worf and Brigadier Kerla in Star Trek 6.
So why not an army structure instead, that ends with the equivalent to the navy captain (NATO OF-5) at colonel?
Yes in times where an ensign or higher is the only survivng officer then yes they will assume command. And I can see the lower ranks commanding the smaller ships like frigates and light cruisers. It is common for an Ensign or Lt to be in command of a frigate, light cruisers a Lt or Lt Comm, Medium crusiers Lt Comm or Commander. Heavy cruisers, battle ships, carriers and anything of that caliber and size you won't find anything lower than the rank of Capt, or anything above that rank commanding those ships either.
It actually depends on ship size on what rank you will find commanding said ship, at least in the US Navy. Some of the smaller vessels are commanded by ensigns but when you get to carriers, which are the lead ship of the battle group, you wont find anything lower than capt commanding it nor will you see any rank above that either.
The US Navy had a high capt rank which was changed to commodore then later done away with. But I see no reason why the rank of commodore couldn't be inserted as per the conditions I stated in my original post. I think it would be appropriate to award the ranks higher than capt to those who have veteran status by their number of days of playing.
I like that idea of using the army ranks that match the naval ones since it appears thats what the Klingons use anyway.
As has been pointed out, it's more an RP thing; and when I'm in that kind of mood my KDF character is the kind of guy who'd give himself a rank like 'Brigadier General' even if nobody else would.
I do hate being an Admiral on the Fed side though.
I use titles and rank insignia to try and work around it; but NPCs and the game UI just love to remind me that I'm deluding myself.
To me its more than just an RP thing. I can remember way back in my creative writing class my instructor telling me that if I was writing a sci fi story I had to include elements of believability into it to lend it a bit of credibility. If not and you went too far out there with it then the reader would be put off so to speak and the story wouldn't be received well. Having us top out at admiral takes away from the credence of the MMO world Cryptic has built making it less palatable to the players.
edit: also, the command structure in star trek's universe is clearly different than that of modern militaries...i.e. i'd doubt that you'd see a lieutenant commanding a ship of the line...even a small one. also, in the modern military, (you'll have to confirm/deny this, because while i'm relatively sure, i'm not positive) there's a limit to the number of admirals there can be at any given moment, yes? *walks around esd, watching the crowds of admirals*
after-shower-edit: and for the record: i agree. having everyone be a vice admiral is weird. my suggestion would be something like this. section 13 and their klingon analogue (i dunno...klingon intelligence? i know they have to have a secret police or something) recruit us early on in our carreers (i know feds get missions where sec13 comes into play pretty hard, not sure on klink), and they give us ranks that're roughly equivalent to the current rank structure, but are named differently, and are technically outside and a step up from the typical starfleet/klink chain of command. it would explain why we're able to refuse missions from admirals. how we're able to form our own fleets outside of starfleet's chain of command. why we can never be demoted. probably some other stuff as well.
Yes there is a Fleet Admiral in charge of the battle group and yes he does have a flagship but he is not in command of his own flagship the Capt is. The Admiral is more of a VIP passenger who rarely comes aboard the Flagship. It isn't unusual for them to fly over the Pacific or Atlantic rather than make the crossing by ship. They don't spend much time out to sea and to be fair they have more than earned that right, they spend most of their time being diplomats when the battle group is on a 6mo cruise.
If you read the books and follow the movies and TV series closely you'll notice the closely follow our modern naval command structure. They use the same ranks as the ones I gave in my 1st post, why Cryptic deviated from this I don't know.
the way I see it, by now I should atleast be on the Klingon High Council, even being an Orion simply due to all of the powerful people in the Empire who owe me a favor (Pretty much everyone).
And given that the captain of a ship is referred to as Captain whether they are lieutenants or commanders or captain, I do wish the dialogs on the fed side would reflect that. On the KDF side I don't care what they call me, I just wish they wouldn't drop my cloak. :mad:
Yes this has been discussed many times on the forums to no avail. But I'll keep bringing it up because it's these little idiosyncrasies in the game that do it harm when totaled up. I remember being on here shortly after launch and witnessing players leaving in droves because the game wasn't trekkie enough. Maybe if Cryptic would've listened to their players back then they wouldn't have had to resort to the lock boxes.
If you would have read the whole of this forum post you would've known we all agreed it was proper to use army ranks for the KDF.
And unless you're 12 yrs old no one else thought being a general was cool, Colonel was chosen as the rank to top out at.
And ill post whatever I want on the forums despite what you think I should do. You sound more like a Fed forum troll than you do a KDF player.
I would have preferred to see the Admiral and General rank titles limited to persons with top-rank player Fleet positions, actually.
ALL HOLDINGS FINISHED! - Starbase 5-5-5-5 || Embassy 3-3-3 || Mine 3-3-3 || Spire 3-3-3
A laid back KDF fleet welcoming independent, casual, & part-time players and groups. Roms & alts welcome.
Send in-game mail to Wampaq@Jnoh, visit our recruitment thread and FB page for more info.