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playernumbers and classes in pvp maps

wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
hi there.
just want to throw in a lil idea i got after fighting a team of 4 sci's (6 players in total on their side) in a c&h. i won't go in why i did not like that match ;D... this idea surely made it to the forums before, but i did not read anything on this for while, so:

wouldn't it be more appropiate if class-numbers were set before match-start? so there never would be more scis, tacs or engis on your team, than on the other.
f.e. in that match, given no sci was on my team, 2 scis would have been moved to my team and f.e. 2 tacs to the other team. only 1 more of any class could be on any team, regarding the fact that it's not given there will always be round numbers to spare.

this may would increase the waiting time to have a que started, but i'd be fine with that, because i believe most matches would be more balanced (i know: balance is a tricky word ;)). may just show which classes already qued on any side.

also it may forces premades to more diversity to get a match started. f.e. actually sometimes i like to go with premade tac-teams which mostly lead to some kind of stomp. no problem here with giving that up;
don't get me wrong: i also do think sci is the most powerful class ingame right now, but that would be an other discussion (no posts regarding this plz)!
i hope it became clear what i mean, english is not my mother-tongue.

i know that idea is not worked out, so plz add some critical thoughts or just tell me to not think about furthermore ;). thx for your time.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • beefsupreme79beefsupreme79 Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    agreed but the premade, "win at all cost cheeze spammers" would whine
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    wast33 wrote: »
    hi there.
    wouldn't it be more appropiate if class-numbers were set before match-start?

    Any reason you didn't build your own team, with your friends or fleet or the Organized PvP channel?

    wast33 wrote: »
    so there never would be more scis, tacs or engis on your team, than on the other.

    This would make the wait in the ques take a long, long, time.


    I recommend forming your own team first.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What is the point of forming a team, when the public queue system will throw a random pug against you, and not another premade? Not sure when you last pugged, but when I do my 5-10 arena matches per day, 80% of the time there is a different premade against my pug. Not generally complaining about the premade themself, but the queue system match making. But changing that is planned for season 101 or something.

    Forming a team for public queues means stomping pugs 90% of the time. Waste of time and no fun.

    Forming a team makes sense only for private matches IMHO.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Any reason you didn't build your own team, with your friends or fleet or the Organized PvP channel?

    i like pugging too. also many folks on my friends-list are just dps-junkies like me. in my fleet that's not the case in that manner, but not every time there are folks who like to team up when i want to ;).
    This would make the wait in the ques take a long, long, time.


    I recommend forming your own team first.

    i do go in premades sometimes (also sometimes with some diversity), but when pugging i sometimes approach very un-balanced teams reffering to classes.
    also plz consider that it not means the whole que has to wait till 3 engs are on each side f.e.. the teams also could be tacs 4/3, scis 1/1, engs 0/1 f.e.. so the que would balance what's there and not wait till certain class slots were filled.
    this would blow premades, yes. but may a solution would be to divide pugging from premades:
    what about a league for premades only, and pugging just for fun? :)
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    What is the point of forming a team, when the public queue system will throw a random pug against you, and not another premade?

    Not sure when you last pugged, but when I do my 5-10 arena matches per day, 80% of the time there is a different premade against my pug.

    These are two conflicting statements.

    You are saying there is no point to forming a team, because you will fight a PUG and then go on to say that 80% of the time you are in a PUG fighting a premade...*


    If more people formed more teams beforehand, then there would be more non-PUG teams in the ques.


    Not creating a team only continues to make more teams be PUG teams.





    *That logic reminds me of this:

    ?The odds against there being a bomb on a plane are a million to one, and against two bombs a million times a million to one. Next time you fly, cut the odds and take a bomb.?

    -Benny Hill

    ;)
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    These are two conflicting statements.

    You are saying there is no point to forming a team, because you will fight a PUG and then go on to say that 80% of the time you are in a PUG fighting a premade...


    If more people formed more teams beforehand, then there would be more non-PUG teams in the ques.


    Not creating a team only continues to make more teams be PUG teams.

    That's not conflicting statement...that's how the random queues work. The typical weekend (euro time) for me, is to have 5 matches in row, always against different premade from different fleet.

    Bad luck ? Nah, bad match making system (or rather non-existant).
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • dummynamedummyname Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    When our team forms up for pvp we typically see 40% pre-made 60% pugs (and of those 60 at least a third of them aren't your typical pugs, they are on voice comms of some sort judging by the coordination of alpha strikes, subnukes, target switching and cross-healing.)

    Maybe we're just lucky! :D

    Not sure how people feel about that really big MMO that some arbitrary number of millions of people play, but their lfg dungeon system created a bottleneck queue for dps classes waiting on healers and tanks to enter queue. Assuming STO doesn't have anything close to approaching the number of available players, and dividing that by the number of players who actually queue for pvp...do you think we have enough to not only balance the classes of players getting into queue, but also separate pre-made and pug-made teams into their own queues? :P
    24 Hours a day, 365 days a week.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited March 2013

    If more people formed more teams beforehand, then there would be more non-PUG teams in the ques.


    you're right with that, but it's only half of the guess i'd say ;):
    some just don't like to go in premades all the time, they just want to que and have fun without the need of socialising in any sense. and then their odds of having fun when been throwing against a premade are kinda low.

    indeed many folks on my friends list first ripped me off in pugs. guess i may wouldn't even haved noticed them if they were in premades all the time, just because of the expection of fail.
    ... also fought some matches where we, the pugs, beaten that premade to hell :), but thats not happening more often than the other way round.

    such a system as suggested would at least balance the sides regarding to classes, which indeed would lead to much more balance than we have right now i'd say.
    dummyname wrote: »
    do you think we have enough to not only balance the classes of players getting into queue, but also separate pre-made and pug-made teams into their own queues? :P

    good point. i fear you're right with that, but indeed the way it is isn't that better, or is it?
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    That's not conflicting statement...that's how the random queues work. The typical weekend (euro time) for me, is to have 5 matches in row, always against different premade from different fleet.

    Bad luck ? Nah, bad match making system (or rather non-existant).



    The point is that if you brought your own team, you would no longer be in a PUG vs. a premade.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The point is that if you brought your own team, you would no longer be in a PUG vs. a premade.

    Of course I would be in Pug vs. premade match. Because I would be the one in the premade stomping the PUGs...that's the tragedy about the system.

    The point is, in the end, I end in rather same ratio of "fun" matches. The pug vs. pug have just a lot less cheese, so are more enjoyable for me. ;) And also I can fly the "non-competitive" ships and do not feel bad.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Of course I would be in Pug vs. premade match. Because I would be the one in the premade stomping the PUGs...that's the tragedy about the system.

    ...and now we're back to conflicting statements.

    dalnar83 wrote:
    he typical weekend (euro time) for me, is to have 5 matches in row, always against different premade from different fleet.


    So what you are saying is that you always end up fighting premade fleets and if you make you own premade the universe will look down upon you and with great irony and furious laughter make you fight nothing but PUGs?


    This is poor logic.


    Encouraging more people to make at least a halfway organized team will lead to more organized teams.


    You have convinced yourself that no matter which course you take will lead to an unfun situation.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    focus plz. this thread is not about the sense of going in premades or not! it's about an idea to balance pugs and pvp matches in whole.
    even if there's a premade which stomps, this has nothing to deal with balance regarding to classes. indeed premades may doesn't had to be torn up by that idea. just wait a bit more till an even pug (classes!) is qued. just to remind:
    4 scis out of 6 players on the same side and none on the other. these numbers could be changed with any class or number.
    it's about the non-built-in diversity, which i feel is in need to get fixed in a flexible way. it would balance the classes/players that que up for every single match. thx.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    wast33 wrote: »
    focus plz. this thread is not about the sense of going in premades or not! it's about an idea to balance pugs and pvp matches in whole.
    even if there's a premade which stomps, this has nothing to deal with balance regarding to classes. indeed premades may doesn't had to be torn up by that idea. just wait a bit more till an even pug (classes!) is qued. just to remind:
    4 scis out of 6 players on the same side and none on the other. these numbers could be changed with any class or number. it's about the non-built-in diversity, which i feel is needed and not had to be static. it would balance the classes/players that que up for every single match. thx.

    But thats related issue. The match making system sucks period. It can't even put team vs teams with priority, so do not get high hopes that it will assing players depending on their career choice...

    Would it be nice ? yes! will it happen in this century ? no...
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    But thats related issue. The match making system sucks period. It can't even put team vs teams with priority, so do not get high hopes that it will assing players depending on their career choice...

    Would it be nice ? yes! will it happen in this century ? no...

    ... i mostly find myself to be on the idealistic side... when started with sto there not had been mk xi ap's for feds for a long time. and almost no one really would ever or even now is expecting cryptic to release a, surely broken in the first place, rom-faction and so on ;)...

    just try to think about it this way: the ideas we now suggest may(and nothing more) will improve cryptics plans for the future of sto.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    We just don't have the numbers to implement any kind of class filtering.

    And CnH is just pure chaos. I've run into 5 man CPB teams way back when CPB wasn't a total joke. It was pure madness. ;)


    If you want a better chance in those environments, then bring a 5-man with you. Use OPvP to make a pugmade if you can't find anyone to fight with in your friends list.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    We just don't have the numbers to implement any kind of class filtering.

    And CnH is just pure chaos. I've run into 5 man CPB teams way back when CPB wasn't a total joke. It was pure madness. ;)


    If you want a better chance in those environments, then bring a 5-man with you. Use OPvP to make a pugmade if you can't find anyone to fight with in your friends list.

    i see your points. but on the one hand pvp maps seem to be good filled most of the time nowadays. not had a longer wait time then about ten mins these days (i sometimes experienced 30mins and more waiting time about half a year ago. i guess this goes in connection with bootcamp :)).
    on the other hand: have you ever thought that the ques could fill faster if the quesystem was reworked so that any player would find himself in a balanced match all the time regarding to classes? just a thought.

    i'm fine with criticizm, but i would wish it would be more constructive. not just: that's the way, so go premade. just try to think about it, how it could or should be from your perspective ;).

    edit: some hours of c&h now, with an average participation of about two to three buddies from my friends list and some fleeties (pugmades as i learned today ;D). mostly tacs. we stomped almost everything. this i not write to show how badass we were ^^! it's only to show that something has to be done to make it more competetive, just like the first example.
    (just to point it out again: nothing about nerfing or buffing anything, it's only about to balance classes flexibly in numbers in every match, as far as possible)
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