This kinda turned into a wall of text, so tl;dr: Captain abilities should be unique and allow each captain class to define their own playstyle. Tac and Sci are. Eng captain abilities aren't. This is a problem.
Something that came to the forefront of my mind from the other "problems with engineers" thread and some OPvP chat was the fact Engineering captain abilities simply weren't special any more. I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'd just like to share my thoughts with the community at large. This is slightly different from a "this is what engineers need to be better" post; it's more about the general degradation of Engineering captains as a unique, independent class type.
First off, why do people choose to play as a Tactical, Science, or Engineering captain? What really separates the different captain classes in space? As some of my wise colleagues have already noted, the only thing that really separates the three classes in space is the 5 abilities that they're granted -- these five abilities define the captain classes in space.
What should follow naturally from this is the idea that these abilities should be unique to each captain class. That is, the effects of a class's abilities should not be replicatable by any other source. This allows each captain class to have their own, distinct playstyle and define their own moments, as another PvPer so eloquently stated.
Every time this rule is violated, the lines between classes become blurred -- and with them, the reasons for playing the affected classes begin to vanish. Not only does this reduce the importance of captain type in space, but it also hurts the diversity of playstyles within STO.
So, ideally, it seems that the abilities of any captain type should be unique, different from anything else that can be obtained. Unfortunately, it seems that the Engineer captain abilities haven't followed this paradigm. Let's examine each ability and see how.
Rotate Shield Frequency is, in my opinion, the Engineering captain's one good ability. However, looking at its effects show that it's essentially equivalent to being able to cast an Extend Shields 3 on yourself -- the shield regeneration over time, shield damage reduction, and duration are all comparable to ExS.
EPS Power Transfer is normally used for the power bonus that it provides. However, STO has so many different ways to create similar power bonuses; batteries, red matter capacitors, and warp core engineers are only some examples. (Batteries and the RMC also fix disabled subsystems, which makes them even more useful than EPS in certain situations.) Given how power in subsystems is capped at 125, using EPS in conjunction with one of these methods is normally a waste. EPS technically also provides a power transfer rate bonus as well, but from my observations this is rarely useful and can be mimicked by using a power transfer relay console.
Nadion Inversion's effect has been copied to the duty officer Marion Frances Dulmer and the 2-piece set bonus from the Omega Assimilated Technologies set. Non-Engineers can not only randomly get the bonus, but can also use it when they desire by using DEM with Marion equipped. (Although Marion's effect only lasts 8s, this is long enough for most escorts to use BO and unleash the rest of their alpha strike.)
Miracle Worker... to be frank, isn't much of a miracle. The flat hull heal and shield heals can be easily outdone by boff healing abilities like AtSIF3 and ST3; these boff abilities also have cooldowns that are much, much shorter than MW's. Add on top of active heals the passive healing abilities that have been recently introduced, and MW's healing looks more and more redundant. (In addition, boff abilities like AtSIF3 and ST3 provide benefits that MW doesn't.) MW's subsystem repair can also be easily duplicated by many, many other methods such as ET, batteries, or simply human bridge officers with full crew.
Engineering Fleet is perhaps the Engineering captain's only unique ability -- a team-wide hull resist increase -- but its effects are mediocre at best. The increased resist is less than half of what an ability like AtSIF can give a target, and Engineering Fleet's other effects are so small that they can be dismissed.
Together, this essentially serves to remove most -- if not all! -- reasons to play Engineering captains any more. Compare this with Tactical, which has all of the damage-multiplication goodies that can be stacked together and applied on top of any other source of damage, or Science, with individual abilities that haven't truly been duplicated by anything else.
Is it any surprise that Engineers considered to "bring nothing to the team", and that many in the PvP community think that they need to be looked at again?
Jem Team AP buff console: APO+ effects since it has scramble/placate immunity as well movement debuff immunity
FoMM and Sensor Scan had similar debuff effects and weren't unique to start.
Tac Initiative: Many cooldown reduction doffs. I barely even use this anymore w/my Tac in Aux2batt builds.
My point, it's not just Eng Captains that have had their uniqueness ebbed over time.
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Jem Team AP buff console: APO+ effects since it has scramble/placate immunity as well movement debuff immunity
FoMM and Sensor Scan had similar debuff effects and weren't unique to start.
Tac Initiative: Many cooldown reduction doffs. I barely even use this anymore w/my Tac in Aux2batt builds.
My point, it's not just Eng Captains that have had their uniqueness ebbed over time.
One could argue the details and you do make a point about not just Engineers but all class exclusivities being slowly eroded but the two most important points that puts Engineers well below Tac and Sci (this is purely a PvP admission because PvE simply doesn't matter in terms of what class, ship or even gear you use) is that Engineers took a hard Nerf back in S2/S3 when Cryptic cut shield resists across the board by nearly half, which also affected RSF.
Miracle Worker used to be castable on friendly targets and provided up to a 90% Hull heal with a temporary damage resist until they made it self-cast only and changed it's effect to a combined ET and ST but without any resists, which only serves to add a few more seconds to one's own demise, assuming that anyone on the other team is even bothering to attack you, which brings up the second point:
Engineers bring NOTHING to the team. Tanking is irrelevant and serves no purpose in PvP, especially when most escorts with a couple Nuets, Elite Fleet Shields and a BFI Doff can tank just fine on their own. EPS, the only real castable Engineer ability is usually wasted on teammates and best served to boost their own healing abilities. As the OP mentioned, Engineering Fleet is a joke. Nadeon Inversion is only useful if you're swarmed by syphon drones, leech and assimilators.
Obviously noone in Cryptic or with a direct line to Cryptic has/or plays an Engineer becuause the serious problems with the class have been around since year 1 and have only gotten worse since FTP, Doff's and Rep System, yet in not one of the PodCasts Question/Answer sessions has anyone even bothered asking the question, "What, if any, plans do you have for the Engineer Class and it's ever-increasing deficiencies as STO continues to evolve?"
At this rate, all Engineers should just pack up and move into a Galaxy-R, occasionally stepping out to wave at the museum patrons as they pass by with that look of strange curiosity.
One could argue the details and you do make a point about not just Engineers but all class exclusivities being slowly eroded but the two most important points that puts Engineers well below Tac and Sci (this is purely a PvP admission because PvE simply doesn't matter in terms of what class, ship or even gear you use) is that Engineers took a hard Nerf back in S2/S3 when Cryptic cut shield resists across the board by nearly half, which also affected RSF.
Miracle Worker used to be castable on friendly targets and provided up to a 90% Hull heal with a temporary damage resist until they made it self-cast only and changed it's effect to a combined ET and ST but without any resists, which only serves to add a few more seconds to one's own demise, assuming that anyone on the other team is even bothering to attack you, which brings up the second point:
Engineers bring NOTHING to the team. Tanking is irrelevant and serves no purpose in PvP, especially when most escorts with a couple Nuets, Elite Fleet Shields and a BFI Doff can tank just fine on their own. EPS, the only real castable Engineer ability is usually wasted on teammates and best served to boost their own healing abilities. As the OP mentioned, Engineering Fleet is a joke. Nadeon Inversion is only useful if you're swarmed by syphon drones, leech and assimilators.
Obviously noone in Cryptic or with a direct line to Cryptic has/or plays an Engineer becuause the serious problems with the class have been around since year 1 and have only gotten worse since FTP, Doff's and Rep System, yet in not one of the PodCasts Question/Answer sessions has anyone even bothered asking the question, "What, if any, plans do you have for the Engineer Class and it's ever-increasing deficiencies as STO continues to evolve?"
At this rate, all Engineers should just pack up and move into a Galaxy-R, occasionally stepping out to wave at the museum patrons as they pass by with that look of strange curiosity.
I don't disagreed there are issues w/the Eng profession, I just think this thread topic is a bit off.
The increase in passive resists/repairs has reduced the need for x-repairs. The hybrid ships have allowed some sci ships to excell in traditional Fed cruiser x-repair roles (Odys. cruiser does this the otherway w/its sensor analysis option). The across the board increase in shield/hull buffers provides more time for a couple of repair/resist boosts to become effective.
The power boosts added since season 5 have reduced the need for power mgt. I barely even spec into Eng power skills w/my Tac/Sci b/c it's just not needed. Maco, Plas Leech gain, various Doffs etc more than make up for the gains in the skill tree.
I do think for a team repair role, self "tanking" or the ability to repair others while taking fire is important. Repairing others is still important (particularly for Fed side), don't get me wrong. But, a support cruiser just isn't as needed as it once was.
The Eng class has been more dependant on Cruisers than Scis on Sci ships or Tac in Escorts. With the power changes in the game an Eng is not needed to get the most out of a heavy drain pressure dps Cruiser anymore. In fact, it more or less requires a Tac to get over the passive resists/repair humps.
As mentioned before some Sci ships perform as good or better if/when team repair roles are needed. The question is do the those ships need an Eng Captain to maintain self repairs while also remote repairing? In general, I'd say no b/c of all the passive repairs and resists and @ that point you're better off w/a Sci Captain.
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My original point was less about "Engineers aren't helpful to teams!" per se, but more about "There aren't many reasons to play Engineers any more, since their class abilities can be obtained elsewhere." Like I said above, whereas Tactical and Science captains have inherent abilities that can't be duplicated by anything else, Engineering captains' abilities can now be gained from lots of different sources; why play Engineer when you can play Science or Tactical and get the best of both worlds?
This hurts the Engineer class's viability both in PvE and PvP, while playing solo and while in a team -- pretty much everywhere.
My original point was less about "Engineers aren't helpful to teams!" per se, but more about "There aren't many reasons to play Engineers any more, since their class abilities can be obtained elsewhere." Like I said above, whereas Tactical and Science captains have inherent abilities that can't be duplicated by anything else, Engineering captains' abilities can now be gained from lots of different sources; why play Engineer when you can play Science or Tactical and get the best of both worlds?
This hurts the Engineer class's viability both in PvE and PvP, while playing solo and while in a team -- pretty much everywhere.
Not that I want to run into one PvP, but, couldn't an Eng Captain use the Jem Heavy Escort Carrier w/2aux2batt (tac initiative) a couple of purple tech doffs, 3 snb doffs (SNB), and the Team AP consoles (pseudo APO+)? Toss in Tach mines in a rear slot to have shield stripping, while maintaining their own durability longer than a Tac or Sci could? There's also debuffing pets on top of all that.
In PvE sub out the SNB doffs for something else perhaps defense boosting Flight Deck Doffs.
Edit: Forgot that depending on the ship/build the new Scramble Sensors Doffs increase cooldowns another SNB ability.
Edit: Forgot about at least on the KDF side the 2.5% +25% shield damage proc. Not sure what the Fed side is.
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I have virtually no experience with my engineer in space, other than the powers she has compared to my tac keep my considerably poorer geared ship surviving longer than my tac's ship. So I won't comment much on how bad or good engineer abilities are (though I do like Miracle Worker on my escort). However, I wanted to reply to:
hahaha, that's a good one. Anything an engineer can do, a science or a tactical officer can do much better on the ground. And yes, that includes annoying pet spam. The only thing they're good at is basic support, annoying an enemy and shield tanking. All three of which are completely negated by smart solo play and even the worst of team tactics.
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Not that I want to run into one PvP, but, couldn't an Eng Captain use the Jem Heavy Escort Carrier w/2aux2batt (tac initiative) a couple of purple tech doffs, 3 snb doffs (SNB), and the Team AP consoles (pseudo APO+)? Toss in Tach mines in a rear slot to have shield stripping, while maintaining their own durability longer than a Tac or Sci could? There's also debuffing pets on top of all that.
In PvE sub out the SNB doffs for something else perhaps defense boosting Flight Deck Doffs.
Edit: Forgot that depending on the ship/build the new Scramble Sensors Doffs increase cooldowns another SNB ability.
Edit: Forgot about at least on the KDF side the 2.5% +25% shield damage proc. Not sure what the Fed side is.
...To be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I see you're making some points as to how some Tactical and Science captain abilities might be thought of as replicated by other effects; I'll address those arguments.
You've listed AtB + Technician doffs as a replacement for Tactical Initiative. This isn't a perfect substitution. The major drawback of using AtB + doffs is that, as expected, your aux power tends to go through the floor unless you're using compensatory measures. This severely limits the build's effectiveness on any type of ship or build that relies on aux power -- such as the carrier that you used as an example. Plus, you need two Lt. or LtC. engineering slots open to set up this build. Contrast this with how Engineer abilities can be duplicated with little to no drawback in most cases. In addition, AtB + doffs can only reduce cooldowns by at most 30%; Tactical Initiative reduces cooldowns by more than 50%, consistently putting all tactical boff abilities at their global cooldown.
APO isn't a Tactical captain ability, and shield stripping isn't any captain ability, so I won't address those here.
You've listed the Energy Weapons Officer and Scramble Sensors doffs as being peseudo-SNB replacements. (For completeness, I'll also be addressing the Temporal Inversion Field.) I'll address each one of these separately.
The Energy Weapons Officer doffs, by themselves, only apply a chance to remove up to 3 buffs from a target, with the effect only hitting a target at most once every 15 seconds. While annoying, these doffs cannot compare to the ability of being able to strip all buffs from a target, at your command -- that's what SNB offers, and it's (part of) how SNB defines turning points in PvP matches. (I'd venture so far as to say that most of the PvP community thinks similarly to how I do about this.)
The Scramble Sensors doff applies a 10s debuff to the target that slows ability recharge times by half. Effectively, this means that for abilities with more than 5s left on their cooldown this adds +5s to their clocks; for abilities with less than 5s on their cooldown, this doubles the remaining time left. For most abilities with their global cooldown = 2/3s of the single-copy cooldown, this isn't even a problem if you're running more than one copy of the ability. This is annoying, yes, but it again cannot compare to the CD-slowing debuff that SNB inflicts -- once you use an ability while SNB'd, don't think of ever using that ability again until well after SNB wears off/is cleansed.
Temporal Inversion Field may be the strongest contender for a replacement for SNB -- I, at least, find it particularly aggravating -- but it still falls short of being able to truly replicate both of SNB's effects. Yes, it can force a CD-recharge debuff on par with what SNB gives, but it can't provide the buff-stripping that SNB does; it's arguably this perfect combination that makes SNB what it is, the magical ability that can instantly remove any and all protection from a target and prevent its quick recovery for an extended period of time. (Also, TIF can be escaped by running away from it; while it also applies a movement debuff, I've seen some quick escorts smash their escape buttons and make it out safely.)
Even combining these different SNB-esque effects fails to replicate the effects of a true SNB; at this moment, there's no ability other than SNB that lets you strip all (or any) buffs from a target on command. (Thank the heavens! :P)
Tactical and Science captains still feel like they bring their own special, unique set of abilities to any confrontation, whether it be PvE or PvP, solo or with a team. Engineers... don't.
As a final note, with regards to your "maintaining their own durability longer than Tac or Sci", you seem to be emphasizing RSF and MW as being extremely important; like I said earlier, while RSF is nice it can be effectively duplicated by someone tossing you an ExS3 (even an ExS1 or 2 will significantly increase survivability), and MW can be effectively replicated by any number of passive or active healing abilities. (Also note that, due to shield resist caps, applying ExS3 and RSF together usually leads to wasting the shield damage reduction bonus that each ability provides; contrast this with the damage-boosting abilities of Tac, which can be stacked on top of each other for maximum "fun".)
EDIT: My goodness, everything I touch seems to turn into a wall of text. TL;DR:
- AtB + doffs isn't a perfect substitute for Tactical Initiative; it comes with significant drawbacks.
- The energy weapon doffs, scramble sensors doff, and Temporal Inversion Field aren't perfect substitutes for SNB, even in combination.
- Engineering captain abilities can be mostly duplicated with no drawbacks.
...To be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I see you're making some points as to how some Tactical and Science captain abilities might be thought of as replicated by other effects; I'll address those arguments.
You've listed AtB + Technician doffs as a replacement for Tactical Initiative. This isn't a perfect substitution. The major drawback of using AtB + doffs is that, as expected, your aux power tends to go through the floor unless you're using compensatory measures. This severely limits the build's effectiveness on any type of ship or build that relies on aux power -- such as the carrier that you used as an example. Plus, you need two Lt. or LtC. engineering slots open to set up this build. Contrast this with how Engineer abilities can be duplicated with little to no drawback in most cases. In addition, AtB + doffs can only reduce cooldowns by at most 30%; Tactical Initiative reduces cooldowns by more than 50%, consistently putting all tactical boff abilities at their global cooldown.
APO isn't a Tactical captain ability, and shield stripping isn't any captain ability, so I won't address those here.
You've listed the Energy Weapons Officer and Scramble Sensors doffs as being peseudo-SNB replacements. (For completeness, I'll also be addressing the Temporal Inversion Field.) I'll address each one of these separately.
The Energy Weapons Officer doffs, by themselves, only apply a chance to remove up to 3 buffs from a target, with the effect only hitting a target at most once every 15 seconds. While annoying, these doffs cannot compare to the ability of being able to strip all buffs from a target, at your command -- that's what SNB offers, and it's (part of) how SNB defines turning points in PvP matches. (I'd venture so far as to say that most of the PvP community thinks similarly to how I do about this.)
The Scramble Sensors doff applies a 10s debuff to the target that slows ability recharge times by half. Effectively, this means that for abilities with more than 5s left on their cooldown this adds +5s to their clocks; for abilities with less than 5s on their cooldown, this doubles the remaining time left. For most abilities with their global cooldown = 2/3s of the single-copy cooldown, this isn't even a problem if you're running more than one copy of the ability. This is annoying, yes, but it again cannot compare to the CD-slowing debuff that SNB inflicts -- once you use an ability while SNB'd, don't think of ever using that ability again until well after SNB wears off/is cleansed.
Temporal Inversion Field may be the strongest contender for a replacement for SNB -- I, at least, find it particularly aggravating -- but it still falls short of being able to truly replicate both of SNB's effects. Yes, it can force a CD-recharge debuff on par with what SNB gives, but it can't provide the buff-stripping that SNB does; it's arguably this perfect combination that makes SNB what it is, the magical ability that can instantly remove any and all protection from a target and prevent its quick recovery for an extended period of time. (Also, TIF can be escaped by running away from it; while it also applies a movement debuff, I've seen some quick escorts smash their escape buttons and make it out safely.)
Even combining these different SNB-esque effects fails to replicate the effects of a true SNB; at this moment, there's no ability other than SNB that lets you strip all (or any) buffs from a target on command. (Thank the heavens! :P)
Tactical and Science captains still feel like they bring their own special, unique set of abilities to any confrontation, whether it be PvE or PvP, solo or with a team. Engineers... don't.
As a final note, with regards to your "maintaining their own durability longer than Tac or Sci", you seem to be emphasizing RSF and MW as being extremely important; like I said earlier, while RSF is nice it can be effectively duplicated by someone tossing you an ExS3 (even an ExS1 or 2 will significantly increase survivability), and MW can be effectively replicated by any number of passive or active healing abilities. (Also note that, due to shield resist caps, applying ExS3 and RSF together usually leads to wasting the shield damage reduction bonus that each ability provides; contrast this with the damage-boosting abilities of Tac, which can be stacked on top of each other for maximum "fun".)
The AP console is a pseudo Tac Commander ability though it share more similarities w/APO, it is a team buff like the dps only Tac Cammander ability. While it doesn't have the same damage boost, it trades that off for the movement resists of APO and the additional bonus of being immune to confuse/placate. Also, dual Aux2batt builds in particular reduces Boff cooldowns to their base floor. Most Boff abilities have a floor of 50% or 66.7% of their normal cooldown. 2 triggers of Aux2batt during this time happens.
I used the Escort Carrier as an example, it's not really aux dependent for the pets. On KDF side the Orion wings can deploy ~every 20 seconds at worst. It has plenty of Eng boff abilities and Tech doffs are better than Tac Init b/c they reduce the cooldowns of all Boff abilities. It's not much effort to use epta and/or any number of abilities to get gains to aux.
I'd rather face an SNB every couple of minutes than constantly losing 3 buffs every 15 seconds which a team using SNB doffs can do (fortunately most team don't do this). Even 3 Sci Captains would be preferable to a team of AoE SNB Doff spray imo.
The extra 5 seconds of Scramble Sensor cooldown makes relatively wide windows for debuff/alpha strikes.
Again Pet spam makes the joke of Phontonic Fleet even moreso.
All the passive resists (which include hull and shields) make the sci AoE resist boosts not as needed (another 2 Captain skills).
The resist Debuffs from Sensor Scan/FoMM can be duplicated w/Boff abilities APB and APD, their's also disruptor procs.
Not sure how the Fed Tach console compares to Sensor Scan/FoMM as far as perception buff/target cloak debuff. But, there's a deflector that gives perception boost as well (Jem I think).
The question in my mind if an Eng, a Tac, a Sci were to use the Jem HEC setup I initially described would the overlapping Tac/Sci abilities be stronger than the more well rounded Eng? The Tac would do more damage, but could the Eng take it and dish out more than the Tac could take at that point? The Sci does have the target SNB debuff, but again could the Eng take it and dish out enough to kill the Sci. Tbh, idk. To me it gets back to the relative role of Eng powers and if they're useful anymore, not so much can others use them.
Edit: To put it another way, the Eng powers seem to have a cieling of effectiveness the Tac and Sci Captain abilities don't. Scis will add more debuff, Tacs will add more damage. There's a peek to power gain effectiveness, there's a peak to resist/regen effectiveness.
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nadion and EPS
made redundant or out done by- overcaping weapons energy (100% up time), useing warp core doffs (potentially 100% up time) DEM doff (on long enough to launch 2, maybe 3 BOs)
RSF
made redundant or out done by- not bad actually, its ES on yourself. should be made castable
MW
made redundant or out done by- its not that great when you compare it to other high level heals a healer has. its basically ET4+ST3 in one. should be made castable
eng fleet
made redundant or out done by- shield tanking
what else should they do for eng? make EPS grant all 4 EPtX skill level 2 secondary bonuses. like extra res for shields, extra energy damage, extra speed and extra stealth sight. these effects should last the full duration of the skill though
nadiaon in addition to the drain resist should give a 25% damage buff to all energy damage.
MW should maybe have a slightly reduced cooldown, by like a minute, and be castable of course. RSF castable too, otherwise its fine
eng fleet should give +50 skill points to hull repair, shield repair and subsystem repair
there, eng would be the best healers, and they would have a moderate amount of teath. sci captains would be the worst of the 3 at dealing weapons damage, and rely more on debuffs then buffs for their weapon's effectiveness
nadion and EPS
made redundant or out done by- overcaping weapons energy (100% up time), useing warp core doffs (potentially 100% up time) DEM doff (on long enough to launch 2, maybe 3 BOs)
RSF
made redundant or out done by- not bad actually, its ES on yourself. should be made castable
MW
made redundant or out done by- its not that great when you compare it to other high level heals a healer has. its basically ET4+ST3 in one. should be made castable
eng fleet
made redundant or out done by- shield tanking
what else should they do for eng? make EPS grant all 4 EPtX skill level 2 secondary bonuses. like extra res for shields, extra energy damage, extra speed and extra stealth sight. these effects should last the full duration of the skill though
nadiaon in addition to the drain resist should give a 25% damage buff to all energy damage.
MW should maybe have a slightly reduced cooldown, by like a minute, and be castable of course. RSF castable too, otherwise its fine
eng fleet should give +50 skill points to hull repair, shield repair and subsystem repair
there, eng would be the best healers, and they would have a moderate amount of teath. sci captains would be the worst of the 3 at dealing weapons damage, and rely more on debuffs then buffs for their weapon's effectiveness
There's a Doff that already gives additional boosts to batteries similar to what you're suggesting for EPS, too much overlap? Not against it, just asking.
25% it too high imo and steps on Tacs toes. How about increase the effectiveness of Beam by reducing the Beam damage reduction (or eliminate it) @ range for the duration of NI? Or reduce damage reduction for all non DHC Energy weapon types @ range?
To clarify would Eng Fleet be a team or self buff? I have concerns (w/Human Boff in particular) this is already way too high to have it be a team buff. How about a subsystem debuff immunity similar to ET?
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There's a Doff that already gives additional boosts to batteries similar to what you're suggesting for EPS, too much overlap? Not against it, just asking.
25% it too high imo and steps on Tacs toes. How about increase the effectiveness of Beam by reducing the Beam damage reduction (or eliminate it) @ range for the duration of NI? Or reduce damage reduction for all non DHC Energy weapon types @ range?
To clarify would Eng Fleet be a team or self buff? I have concerns (w/Human Boff in particular) this is already way too high to have it be a team buff. How about a subsystem debuff immunity similar to ET?
25% does not step on a tacs toes at all. first its just energy damage, second APA alone has a 49% buff to all damage. i like the idea of no reduction to damage over range though, throw that in too!
eng fleet would be a team buff of course. it has a long cooldown, and is only on for a short time, its pretty hard to call anything a fleet skill does op.
tacs and sci seem border line op right now, compared to each other. they might be too good at what they do. so i came up with changes that make eng borderline op too, taking a little from both, spiting the difference between them. seems totally appropriate to me.
25% does not step on a tacs toes at all. first its just energy damage, second APA alone has a 49% buff to all damage. i like the idea of no reduction to damage over range though, throw that in too!
eng fleet would be a team buff of course. it has a long cooldown, and is only on for a short time, its pretty hard to call anything a fleet skill does op.
tacs and sci seem border line op right now, compared to each other. they might be too good at what they do. so i came up with changes that make eng borderline op too, taking a little from both, spiting the difference between them. seems totally appropriate to me.
I don't disagree Eng Captain skills need are hard look, particularly those where there are caps in place to reduce their effectiveness.
I'd just like to see a more defined role than absorbing abilities from the other 2 classes.
The ignore range limitation would add to much needed pressure damage potential.
W/Human Space traits people have reported 3-5% hull regen/second while in combat. This needs to be nerfed not boosted imo. (There's a thread where the traits someone collected data to show the trait regen boosts aren't being effected by the combat reduction). I'd rather Engs abilities just boost their ability to repair others in addition to having skills to repair/boost resist others.
Lastly, I think being an anti systems debuff makes sense for their role which is why I mentioned a team immunity ability to subsystems.
They then would have abilities to repair others, apply long range pressure damage over intermitant periods of time, and be anti system debuffs all which would be unique to the other captain abilities.
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Comments
Yes... Indeed.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Photonic Fleet: Not unique after carriers, device slot pets, embassy summons, and low hull fleet support calles
SNB: SNB doffs
Shield Stripping Boffs: Old Theta, Current/old Tet glider, current tach mines
Power Debuffing Boffs: siphon pets, plas leech, ace pets, other power debuffing pets
Photonic Officer: Many cooldown reduction Doffs
Captain AoE Sci Hull resists buff: while not a team buff, Hazzard Doffs can more than make up for this.
Shield Damage Reduction AoE: Adaptive Elite Fleet shields.
Tac:
Jem Team AP buff console: APO+ effects since it has scramble/placate immunity as well movement debuff immunity
FoMM and Sensor Scan had similar debuff effects and weren't unique to start.
Tac Initiative: Many cooldown reduction doffs. I barely even use this anymore w/my Tac in Aux2batt builds.
My point, it's not just Eng Captains that have had their uniqueness ebbed over time.
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One could argue the details and you do make a point about not just Engineers but all class exclusivities being slowly eroded but the two most important points that puts Engineers well below Tac and Sci (this is purely a PvP admission because PvE simply doesn't matter in terms of what class, ship or even gear you use) is that Engineers took a hard Nerf back in S2/S3 when Cryptic cut shield resists across the board by nearly half, which also affected RSF.
Miracle Worker used to be castable on friendly targets and provided up to a 90% Hull heal with a temporary damage resist until they made it self-cast only and changed it's effect to a combined ET and ST but without any resists, which only serves to add a few more seconds to one's own demise, assuming that anyone on the other team is even bothering to attack you, which brings up the second point:
Engineers bring NOTHING to the team. Tanking is irrelevant and serves no purpose in PvP, especially when most escorts with a couple Nuets, Elite Fleet Shields and a BFI Doff can tank just fine on their own. EPS, the only real castable Engineer ability is usually wasted on teammates and best served to boost their own healing abilities. As the OP mentioned, Engineering Fleet is a joke. Nadeon Inversion is only useful if you're swarmed by syphon drones, leech and assimilators.
Obviously noone in Cryptic or with a direct line to Cryptic has/or plays an Engineer becuause the serious problems with the class have been around since year 1 and have only gotten worse since FTP, Doff's and Rep System, yet in not one of the PodCasts Question/Answer sessions has anyone even bothered asking the question, "What, if any, plans do you have for the Engineer Class and it's ever-increasing deficiencies as STO continues to evolve?"
At this rate, all Engineers should just pack up and move into a Galaxy-R, occasionally stepping out to wave at the museum patrons as they pass by with that look of strange curiosity.
I don't disagreed there are issues w/the Eng profession, I just think this thread topic is a bit off.
The increase in passive resists/repairs has reduced the need for x-repairs. The hybrid ships have allowed some sci ships to excell in traditional Fed cruiser x-repair roles (Odys. cruiser does this the otherway w/its sensor analysis option). The across the board increase in shield/hull buffers provides more time for a couple of repair/resist boosts to become effective.
The power boosts added since season 5 have reduced the need for power mgt. I barely even spec into Eng power skills w/my Tac/Sci b/c it's just not needed. Maco, Plas Leech gain, various Doffs etc more than make up for the gains in the skill tree.
I do think for a team repair role, self "tanking" or the ability to repair others while taking fire is important. Repairing others is still important (particularly for Fed side), don't get me wrong. But, a support cruiser just isn't as needed as it once was.
The Eng class has been more dependant on Cruisers than Scis on Sci ships or Tac in Escorts. With the power changes in the game an Eng is not needed to get the most out of a heavy drain pressure dps Cruiser anymore. In fact, it more or less requires a Tac to get over the passive resists/repair humps.
As mentioned before some Sci ships perform as good or better if/when team repair roles are needed. The question is do the those ships need an Eng Captain to maintain self repairs while also remote repairing? In general, I'd say no b/c of all the passive repairs and resists and @ that point you're better off w/a Sci Captain.
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This hurts the Engineer class's viability both in PvE and PvP, while playing solo and while in a team -- pretty much everywhere.
Not that I want to run into one PvP, but, couldn't an Eng Captain use the Jem Heavy Escort Carrier w/2aux2batt (tac initiative) a couple of purple tech doffs, 3 snb doffs (SNB), and the Team AP consoles (pseudo APO+)? Toss in Tach mines in a rear slot to have shield stripping, while maintaining their own durability longer than a Tac or Sci could? There's also debuffing pets on top of all that.
In PvE sub out the SNB doffs for something else perhaps defense boosting Flight Deck Doffs.
Edit: Forgot that depending on the ship/build the new Scramble Sensors Doffs increase cooldowns another SNB ability.
Edit: Forgot about at least on the KDF side the 2.5% +25% shield damage proc. Not sure what the Fed side is.
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hahaha, that's a good one. Anything an engineer can do, a science or a tactical officer can do much better on the ground. And yes, that includes annoying pet spam. The only thing they're good at is basic support, annoying an enemy and shield tanking. All three of which are completely negated by smart solo play and even the worst of team tactics.
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...To be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. I see you're making some points as to how some Tactical and Science captain abilities might be thought of as replicated by other effects; I'll address those arguments.
You've listed AtB + Technician doffs as a replacement for Tactical Initiative. This isn't a perfect substitution. The major drawback of using AtB + doffs is that, as expected, your aux power tends to go through the floor unless you're using compensatory measures. This severely limits the build's effectiveness on any type of ship or build that relies on aux power -- such as the carrier that you used as an example. Plus, you need two Lt. or LtC. engineering slots open to set up this build. Contrast this with how Engineer abilities can be duplicated with little to no drawback in most cases. In addition, AtB + doffs can only reduce cooldowns by at most 30%; Tactical Initiative reduces cooldowns by more than 50%, consistently putting all tactical boff abilities at their global cooldown.
APO isn't a Tactical captain ability, and shield stripping isn't any captain ability, so I won't address those here.
You've listed the Energy Weapons Officer and Scramble Sensors doffs as being peseudo-SNB replacements. (For completeness, I'll also be addressing the Temporal Inversion Field.) I'll address each one of these separately.
The Energy Weapons Officer doffs, by themselves, only apply a chance to remove up to 3 buffs from a target, with the effect only hitting a target at most once every 15 seconds. While annoying, these doffs cannot compare to the ability of being able to strip all buffs from a target, at your command -- that's what SNB offers, and it's (part of) how SNB defines turning points in PvP matches. (I'd venture so far as to say that most of the PvP community thinks similarly to how I do about this.)
The Scramble Sensors doff applies a 10s debuff to the target that slows ability recharge times by half. Effectively, this means that for abilities with more than 5s left on their cooldown this adds +5s to their clocks; for abilities with less than 5s on their cooldown, this doubles the remaining time left. For most abilities with their global cooldown = 2/3s of the single-copy cooldown, this isn't even a problem if you're running more than one copy of the ability. This is annoying, yes, but it again cannot compare to the CD-slowing debuff that SNB inflicts -- once you use an ability while SNB'd, don't think of ever using that ability again until well after SNB wears off/is cleansed.
Temporal Inversion Field may be the strongest contender for a replacement for SNB -- I, at least, find it particularly aggravating -- but it still falls short of being able to truly replicate both of SNB's effects. Yes, it can force a CD-recharge debuff on par with what SNB gives, but it can't provide the buff-stripping that SNB does; it's arguably this perfect combination that makes SNB what it is, the magical ability that can instantly remove any and all protection from a target and prevent its quick recovery for an extended period of time. (Also, TIF can be escaped by running away from it; while it also applies a movement debuff, I've seen some quick escorts smash their escape buttons and make it out safely.)
Even combining these different SNB-esque effects fails to replicate the effects of a true SNB; at this moment, there's no ability other than SNB that lets you strip all (or any) buffs from a target on command. (Thank the heavens! :P)
Tactical and Science captains still feel like they bring their own special, unique set of abilities to any confrontation, whether it be PvE or PvP, solo or with a team. Engineers... don't.
As a final note, with regards to your "maintaining their own durability longer than Tac or Sci", you seem to be emphasizing RSF and MW as being extremely important; like I said earlier, while RSF is nice it can be effectively duplicated by someone tossing you an ExS3 (even an ExS1 or 2 will significantly increase survivability), and MW can be effectively replicated by any number of passive or active healing abilities. (Also note that, due to shield resist caps, applying ExS3 and RSF together usually leads to wasting the shield damage reduction bonus that each ability provides; contrast this with the damage-boosting abilities of Tac, which can be stacked on top of each other for maximum "fun".)
EDIT: My goodness, everything I touch seems to turn into a wall of text. TL;DR:
- AtB + doffs isn't a perfect substitute for Tactical Initiative; it comes with significant drawbacks.
- The energy weapon doffs, scramble sensors doff, and Temporal Inversion Field aren't perfect substitutes for SNB, even in combination.
- Engineering captain abilities can be mostly duplicated with no drawbacks.
Thanks for the conversation, folks!
The AP console is a pseudo Tac Commander ability though it share more similarities w/APO, it is a team buff like the dps only Tac Cammander ability. While it doesn't have the same damage boost, it trades that off for the movement resists of APO and the additional bonus of being immune to confuse/placate. Also, dual Aux2batt builds in particular reduces Boff cooldowns to their base floor. Most Boff abilities have a floor of 50% or 66.7% of their normal cooldown. 2 triggers of Aux2batt during this time happens.
I used the Escort Carrier as an example, it's not really aux dependent for the pets. On KDF side the Orion wings can deploy ~every 20 seconds at worst. It has plenty of Eng boff abilities and Tech doffs are better than Tac Init b/c they reduce the cooldowns of all Boff abilities. It's not much effort to use epta and/or any number of abilities to get gains to aux.
I'd rather face an SNB every couple of minutes than constantly losing 3 buffs every 15 seconds which a team using SNB doffs can do (fortunately most team don't do this). Even 3 Sci Captains would be preferable to a team of AoE SNB Doff spray imo.
The extra 5 seconds of Scramble Sensor cooldown makes relatively wide windows for debuff/alpha strikes.
Again Pet spam makes the joke of Phontonic Fleet even moreso.
All the passive resists (which include hull and shields) make the sci AoE resist boosts not as needed (another 2 Captain skills).
The resist Debuffs from Sensor Scan/FoMM can be duplicated w/Boff abilities APB and APD, their's also disruptor procs.
Not sure how the Fed Tach console compares to Sensor Scan/FoMM as far as perception buff/target cloak debuff. But, there's a deflector that gives perception boost as well (Jem I think).
The question in my mind if an Eng, a Tac, a Sci were to use the Jem HEC setup I initially described would the overlapping Tac/Sci abilities be stronger than the more well rounded Eng? The Tac would do more damage, but could the Eng take it and dish out more than the Tac could take at that point? The Sci does have the target SNB debuff, but again could the Eng take it and dish out enough to kill the Sci. Tbh, idk. To me it gets back to the relative role of Eng powers and if they're useful anymore, not so much can others use them.
Edit: To put it another way, the Eng powers seem to have a cieling of effectiveness the Tac and Sci Captain abilities don't. Scis will add more debuff, Tacs will add more damage. There's a peek to power gain effectiveness, there's a peak to resist/regen effectiveness.
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nadion and EPS
made redundant or out done by- overcaping weapons energy (100% up time), useing warp core doffs (potentially 100% up time) DEM doff (on long enough to launch 2, maybe 3 BOs)
RSF
made redundant or out done by- not bad actually, its ES on yourself. should be made castable
MW
made redundant or out done by- its not that great when you compare it to other high level heals a healer has. its basically ET4+ST3 in one. should be made castable
eng fleet
made redundant or out done by- shield tanking
what else should they do for eng? make EPS grant all 4 EPtX skill level 2 secondary bonuses. like extra res for shields, extra energy damage, extra speed and extra stealth sight. these effects should last the full duration of the skill though
nadiaon in addition to the drain resist should give a 25% damage buff to all energy damage.
MW should maybe have a slightly reduced cooldown, by like a minute, and be castable of course. RSF castable too, otherwise its fine
eng fleet should give +50 skill points to hull repair, shield repair and subsystem repair
there, eng would be the best healers, and they would have a moderate amount of teath. sci captains would be the worst of the 3 at dealing weapons damage, and rely more on debuffs then buffs for their weapon's effectiveness
There's a Doff that already gives additional boosts to batteries similar to what you're suggesting for EPS, too much overlap? Not against it, just asking.
25% it too high imo and steps on Tacs toes. How about increase the effectiveness of Beam by reducing the Beam damage reduction (or eliminate it) @ range for the duration of NI? Or reduce damage reduction for all non DHC Energy weapon types @ range?
To clarify would Eng Fleet be a team or self buff? I have concerns (w/Human Boff in particular) this is already way too high to have it be a team buff. How about a subsystem debuff immunity similar to ET?
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25% does not step on a tacs toes at all. first its just energy damage, second APA alone has a 49% buff to all damage. i like the idea of no reduction to damage over range though, throw that in too!
eng fleet would be a team buff of course. it has a long cooldown, and is only on for a short time, its pretty hard to call anything a fleet skill does op.
tacs and sci seem border line op right now, compared to each other. they might be too good at what they do. so i came up with changes that make eng borderline op too, taking a little from both, spiting the difference between them. seems totally appropriate to me.
I don't disagree Eng Captain skills need are hard look, particularly those where there are caps in place to reduce their effectiveness.
I'd just like to see a more defined role than absorbing abilities from the other 2 classes.
The ignore range limitation would add to much needed pressure damage potential.
W/Human Space traits people have reported 3-5% hull regen/second while in combat. This needs to be nerfed not boosted imo. (There's a thread where the traits someone collected data to show the trait regen boosts aren't being effected by the combat reduction). I'd rather Engs abilities just boost their ability to repair others in addition to having skills to repair/boost resist others.
Lastly, I think being an anti systems debuff makes sense for their role which is why I mentioned a team immunity ability to subsystems.
They then would have abilities to repair others, apply long range pressure damage over intermitant periods of time, and be anti system debuffs all which would be unique to the other captain abilities.
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