First and foremost, a great deal of thanks goes out to
dontdrunkimshoot for taking time out of blowing up folks to be my guinea pig for this little experiment.
The goal of these tests are to determine, with exacting detail, what effects Power Insulators have when interacting with Energy Siphon 3 and Tyken's Rift 3 and the magnitude.
Grim's ship and char: Science Vesta, 240 Flow Capacitor skill (5 Mk XII Rare Flow caps, 9 ranks into Flow Capacitors skill), ability to cap power Aux power at 125
Drunk's ship and Char: Fleet Kamarag Retrofit, 99 in Power Insulators, 109 in Electro-Plasma Systems
At no point did I change any equipment on my ship. At all times I had Auxiliary power pegged at 125. Test was conducted with both ships stationary, approximately 3 km apart, nose-to-nose.
First up, Energy Siphon 3 versus Power Insulators.
Drain magnitude of E Siphon 3: 50.9
Target's PI Skill (native): 99
Target's Power Level Before E Siphon: 119 / 67 / 56 / 38
Target's Power Level after E Siphon 3: 94 / 41 / 31 / 12
Target's Actual Power Loss: 25 / 26 / 25 / 26
Here we see that with 9 ranks alone in Power Insulators the magnitude of Energy Siphon is slashed directly in half on the strength of the skill alone. This is, plainly, exceptional for not requiring a player to take active measures to deal with the skill.
Target's PI Skill: 123 (+24.4 PI from deflector)
Target's Power Levels: 119 / 67 / 56 / 38
Target's Power Level after E Siphon 3: 96 / 44 / 33 / 15
Target's Actual Powr Loss: 23 / 23 / 23 / 23
Target's PI Skill: 123 (+24.4 from Borg Deflector)
Target's Power Levels: 119 / 67 / 56 / 43
Target's Power Levels after E Siphon 3: 96 / 44 / 33 / 20
Target's Actual power loss: 23 / 23 / 23 / 23
In case anyone was worried, the Borg Deflector does nothing to bump the strength of PI that it shouldn't, generating the exact same reduction in drain when equipped as a generic deflector with the same bonus to PI.
Target's PI Skill: 143 (+PI Def, O-Point)
Target's Power Levels: 121 / 69 / 58 / 40
Target's Power Levels after E Siphon 3: 100 / 48 / 37 / 19
Target's Actual Power: 21 / 21 / 21 / 21
Adding the Romulan Zero-Point, a net +2 to all power levels for DDIMS, along with a bump in Power Insulators sees a further erosion of the power level debuff provided by Energy Siphon 3 to -21 to all subsystems, or, roughly 59% reduction in Energy Siphon 3's effectiveness. At this point we are where most players will be getting PI bonuses from, if any, outside of their skill tree.
However, in the interest of thoroughness, we did not stop here, adding progressively one, then two, then three very rare
Mk XI Power Insulator Consoles.
Target's PI Skill: 171 (+PI Def, 0-point, 1 Mk XI VR PI con[+28.1])
Target's Power levels: 121 / 69 / 58 / 40
Target's Power Levels after E Siphon 3: 102 / 50 / 39 / 21
Target's actual Power Loss: 19 / 19 / 19 / 19
Target's PI Skill: 199 (+PI Def, 0-point, 2 M XI VR PI con)
Target's Power level's: 121 / 69 / 58 / 40
Target's Power levels after E Siphon 3: 104 / 52 / 41 / 23
Target's actual Power loss: 17 / 17 / 17 / 17
Target's PI Skill: 227 (PI Def, 0-Point, 3 Mk XI VR PI con)
Target's Power levels: 121 / 69 / 58 / 40
Target's Power levels after E Siphon 3: 105 / 53 / 42 / 24
Target's actual power loss: 16 / 16 / 16 / 16
So we reach the end of the tests with E Siphon, finding that it is infact possible to reduce its magnitude to as little 31% of its initial value.
Now, for Tyken's Rift 3 we concentrated on just its effect on weapon power, as it drains once per second, this was done to make certain its exact effect did not go unnoticed. Our target,
dontdrunkimshoot's Kamarag, sat out the duration of each Tyken's Rift in its center, at no time moving away from, or otherwise altering its interaction with, the rift.
Power: Tyken's Rift 3 (-16 per second, 240 Flow Capacitor skill, fired at 125 Aux each time)
Target's Electro-Plasma Systems skill: 109
Target's Power Insulator skill: 99
Target's Weapon Power Level: 119
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 113 at lowest
Most power lost by target: 6
Target's Power Insulator skill: 123 (+PI def)
Target's Weapon Power Level: 119
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 114 at lowest
Most power lost by target: 5
Target's Power Insulator Skill: 143 (+PI Def, 0-Point)
Target's Weapon Power Level: 121
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 116 at its lowest
Most power lost by target: 5
Target's Power Insulator Skill: 171 (+PI Def, 0-Point, 1 VR Mk XI PI con)
Target's Weapon Power Level: 121
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 117 at its lowest
Most power lost by target: 4
Target's Power Insulator Skill: 199 (+PI Def, 0-Point, 2 VR Mk XI PI con)
Target's Weapon Power Level: 121
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 117 at its lowest
Most power lost by target: 4
Target's Power Insulator Skill: 227 (+PI Def, 0-Point, 3 VR Mk XI PI con)
Target's Weapon Power Level: 121
Target's Weapon Power Level after Tyken's Rift 3: 117 at its lowest
Most power lost by target: 4
To put it bluntly, Tyken's Rift 3 is broken in the sense that it does not provide a worthwhile effect on the target, failing even to keep up with its passive energy regeneration. In its current form, the power is simple totally ineffective. Were the power changed to apply a stacking debuff to the power levels of enemy ships within its area of effect it would be very much a viable power. However, in its current form it is simply a very fancy, very pricey, mine-killer and nothing more.
On a whim, we also tested a couple of Target:Subsystem powers and noticed something rather odd. The tooltip for both the innate Target:Subsystem powers of the Vesta and for Target Subsystem: Engines 3 say that they apply their power debuff for 15 seconds.
Target: Weapons 1 (240 FlwC, -52.8)
Target Power Insulator Skill: 227 (+PI Def, 0-Point, 3 VR Mk XI PI con)
Target Power Level: 121
Target Power Level after Target Subsystem: Weapons 1: 109 then to 105 after Icon for active effect disappears and reappears. Debuff icon disappears after 15 seconds then reappears, maintaining the subsystem power level debuff for a further 15 seconds before dissipating.
Target Actual Power Loss: 16
Target Subsystem: Engines 3 (240 FlwC, -87.8)
Target Power Insulator Skill: 227 (+PI Def, 0-Point, 3 VR Mk XI PI con)
Target Power Level: 58
Target Power Level after Target Subsystems: Engines 3: 27, then 23 after Icon for active effect disappears and reappears. Debuff icon disappears after 15 seconds then reappears, maintaining the subsystem power level debuff for a further 15 seconds before dissipating.
Target Actual Power Loss: -31
Possible reason for fluctuation in subsystem power level debuff: target was using Adapted MACO Shield.
Now, as I said, the tooltip says the drain of Target:Subsystems should be applied for 15 seconds, but what happens is the icon disappears and then a similar one reappears for a further 15 seconds. Is this a typo in the tooltip or is there a problem with the power itself?
If you feel
Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Comments
anyway, i dont think more than 3 points on eps will do a thing against drain builds, 6 points on power insulators and a few consoles/maco shield to stick arround if i fight against harder drains. subsystem repair/inertial dampers, 6 points on each to counter disables, that's my build
should i get more points on eps ? it is enough to regenerate the power i need to fire a 60 drain weapon build, but i dont think it is enough to counter a drain build, 3eps and 6pi is enough ?
Honestly I like the way PI works... and I think the numbers are perfectly balanced right now.
1) No one is slotting PI consoles in the real world
2) 50% resist is fine... I think I noticed you where still draining around 100 power in total from him even with a full 9 point spend and a deflector. (that is the worst case target you will get with siphen)
3) Bort changed the globals not long ago meaning Tykens and Siphen don't share a global.... so even with 9 points in you could stack Tykens with siphen on one target from one ship.
The issue I DO have with drains right now... is that Hazards makes both of the major drain skills pointless. That is the real nail in the coffin on drain builds... not 50% resists if people go all in on the skill tree.
Tykens being broken is kind of old news, WAD....anywho, energy drain is OP.....NC
Did you guys test for NI effects, i have the feeling that the drain resist is kind of borked too...who cares engies = WAD.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I agree here.
I appreciate the testing and I understand why someone might think E-siphon is "useless" but I think we also need to not lose sight of the fact that there was 100 power across the board drained from the target and there were no other sources of drains being stacked (other casters, polaron procs, multiple drain attacks at once from 1 caster, etc.) - as well as this power boosting your own levels (I know it's a bit silly in the face of always on Plas Leech, but that's a slightly different issue).
I don't think any single power should be so strong as to outright cripple a target.
CRF 3, HYT 3, BO3, EWP 3, DEM 3, Aceton 3 > none of these can outright destroy/cripple a target on their own without proper build, weapons, teamwork/coordination, etc. Some of them can't even pull that off at all.
Tyken's suffers because it's an AoE effect, to it's going to outright less drain vs. multiple targets. I'm open to ideas to improving it, but as an AoE it needs to be weaker by design as you can have multiple ships spam the field with it.
It's might not be 100% fair to call it a PvE power and move on, but how many serious premade escorts are really loading copies of CSV unless they know for a fact they will be facing a ton of spam?
EDIT: I had a brain TRIBBLE on the boff tier of E-siphon 3.
Power insulators need to be toned town a bit. Maybe 35% instead of 50% when you have 100 points specd. The guy you quoted pointed out that NO ONE uses the power insulator console, and why should they when a simple tier 2 captain skill tree spot gives then all the resist they need?
Also, the way to fix tykens is simple, have it have a total amount of power it can drain and just divide that by the number of targets its draining from.
Ie- it drains a total of 20 power per second. One dude will be kinda screwed but if there's pets/ other players around its not so bad- ten targets equals only 2 power drained per second.
This is of course before resists. Which means it'll be great against spam (since spam has no resists) but only "good" against a player who knows what he's doing.
Do you even Science Bro?
No one uses power insulators consoles because the competition for console space at this point is at a massive premium - on to of this I think you cap out at 75% drain resistance if you for some reason want to be mr. super drain resistinator with 250 points in PI.
No one uses PI consoles because it only protects against 1 class of attacks and console slots at the premium they are need to be much broader in scope.
It's an overly niche item and imo it, as well as a handful of overly specialized consoles, have no reason to exist as they currently do.
Yes, PI is a T2 spot, Flow Caps is a T1 Spot.
-100 power is still -100 power.
What reason do you feel a single power should functionally do more than that vs. 1 target?
I sometimes get the feeling that Sci focused players think they should be able to slot a whole ship of heals, be an awesome healer and also have 2 to 3 powers that can totally ruin someone.
I don't understand the justification for this mindset, and maybe I'm wrong that this is what people are asking for but that's how it sometimes comes across.
Well I think 50% is still fine with 9 points in myself. Even thought its tier 2 9 points is still a pretty good amount of spend... and in the case of PI it is protecting against flow cap which is tier 1.
I don't think 100 points of total drain at full resist is bad... one polaron proc and Don't would have likely lost his shields engines and aux... hardly an under powered skill.
I think the real issue is.... One hazards ticking on him means Siphen Does ZERO no matter how many points he has in Power ins... Why spec power ins at all for siphen or tykens really... when one copy of hazards clears it. (Shield drains are the only reason to spec PI)
Its because that's the way it USED to be... prior to the skill tree revamp. Some people miss not needing anything but sci ships to win.
I LIKE the skill tree resist revamp... the resists are all more expensive then the points taken to buff the skills.
50% is NOT crazy, at FULL spend.
The sci players that complain about the 50% resists... are the same guys that where willing to run 5 man sci teams before the new tree... NO thanks we don't want that again.
This test is a great example of why 50% is just fine IMO. -100 system power for a skill someone is resisted against hard... for me proves that 50% is fine. Stack 2 sci drains and slot some polarons and you will still get targets to zero... well as long as they don't have a hazards up.
I used to use Mk XI Plasma Shield Emitter consoles, but found my shield heals tended not to need it, compared to Gateways constantly draining my shields like mad.
TR drains a certain amount of energy for 1 second, it seems to stack that twice on 1 target. only a ship with no PI and no EPS would be effected in the least by that.
heres what it should do
drain ~energy for 5 seconds, a new stack every second. that way EPS wouldn't have anything to do with it, the longer and closer you were too it the more it would do, and it would apply and come off gradually. would be worth using then
The After Shock Rifts seem to drain more or do something to the Rifts.. I've seen my Power levels go WAY down when that second Rift forms. (And no the opposing side wasn't using Polarons and/or Siphon Drones in tandem)
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I feel that after-shock Grav Wells seem to be more powerful than the Grav Well 3 I used, too. Dunno if it's just perception or something funky with how they spawn.
All I want is that my dedicated sci build excels at its primary sci function. Energy drain is one of them.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I don't want to pretend like I know what you mean, if you don't mind would you extrapolate on that build?
If someone chooses many of their boff powers to focus on being a drain ship, then yes I think they should be very effective at it.
If they take HEx2, TSSx2, ST3 on 15s CD with DOFFs and E-siphon 3, then no I don't think they should be more effective than they currently are.
That's not "a drain build" that's a healer, with 1 single drain power.
So like I said, I don't want to put words in your mouth and maybe you mean the former as opposed to the latter.
Skill points, deflector and console is a wash. I have my DHCs, buy expensive tac consoles, I put 9 ranks into no less than 5 tactical skills all focused primarily on one thing and none of that guarantees opening up with CRF 3 is going to do anything. Even using APA does not guarantee a kill.
It will totally vaporize some unprepared noob, the same guy who might have 0 ranks in PI.
Or it will bounce off some protected target as if my ship was shooting wet noodles and I literally require at least one subnuc from another captain to get a kill.
So no, I don't think 9 ranks in Flow caps, a deflector that you were probably going to slot anyway should mean that 1 drain power like ES3 on a ship should be able to completely shut down another player.
Actually this is the kind of sentiment that I meant when I referred to Sci players earlier.
Do you see the issue with this statement?
You want your "sci build" to excel at it's "primary sci function" - Primary means 1.
You follow that with "Energy Drain is one of them".
1) There is no such thing as multiple primary functions.
2) Energy Drain is one route in the (admittedly vague, and unfocused) Sci "tree" of skills. It's most certainly not the entirety of the ship class.
This goes back to my earlier statement in this post, namely if you specialize your whole ship in drains, yes I think the effect should be dramatic and worthwhile.
If you have a bag of tricks, then not all of those tricks should be so powerful as to have massive effects on 1 player when those powers are used individually. (although you might be able to combine them all to a particular effect, which is great)
I like that sci can be a multi-role ship, or that sci can really specialize - but I think that people often think that means you should be amazing at everything when you go the multi-role route.
How is -100 system power for almost 20s not powerful ?
It is extremely powerful. (people seem to think because you load a commander skill people should be dead in the water for 20s with no shields and no engines... that would be complete BS and we would be back to uber sci if everyone got drained for 200 power from E siphen)
I think the real issue with science isn't the passive resistance. Its the super active counters.
Almost everything a sci can do of any value is easily countered these days.
Drains... hazards... the most spammed heal in the game that clears for 31% of the time if someone has but one copy... and it can be shared and you can even run 2 copies for 50% up time if you have a spare ensign sci slot.
Omega spam on escorts these days with doffs... for 50% tractor and GW resist.... and granted sometimes its not a good thing but TBR resist as well.
Never mind the not as often used Damp and PH... which are also very high up time counters.
VM... was one of the last useful skills... and now the Human Boffs make even that almost pointless.
The real issue as I see it is far to many counters that last for far to long.
no one uses power insulator consoles because they have no need to when simply filling out the skill tree gives them all the protection thye need. this isnt right, it completely makes an entire console line useless, why take extra protection when you get all you need from the skill tree? what ever happened to having to choose to live longer or hit harder?
that -100 power is across 4 systems. id be happy to have es toned down a bit in the first place if that would make you happy. science is nearly worthless due to resists and easy counters to higher tier'd powers at NO COST to the defender.
yes it is crazy that by simply filling a tier 2 skill on the skill tree you completely NULLFY half of anything any science captain throws at you. and then add any other points (via deflectors and consoles if you wish) and that makes it that much worse.
all you guys seem to be forgetting that POWER insulators does not only reduce power drains, it reduces shield drains as well.
take my "super OMG where did my shields just go" vesta shield drain ship. it doesnt work if anyone has any points in power insulators. thats 4 major shield drain abilities all made worthless by a simple tier 2 power.
hows that fair? no other skill on the skill tree has that drastic effect on anything else in the game, taking max hull resists does not give you 50% less incomming damage now does it?
Do you even Science Bro?
with the way resists are to science powers, if a science player doesnt super focus on a single aspect of what he can do, he wont be doing ANYTHING for the team hes on because everything in less then oveer cap quantity if worthless, seriously.
watch some of my vids, youll see my shield drain in action, it either works too well or it doesnt work at all. all the difference is in if the player has power insultors on in their skill tree.
hows that fair?
an escorts primary role is to dps, should then its counter (the armor's in the skill tree) give 50% resists when fully maxed? no? why not? oh thats right... because dps is important and science damage isnt.
do you even science bro?
Do you even Science Bro?
Hmmm... Fair... that's an interesting concept. lol
So you are saying that your shield strip build should have no counters... and anyone that gets with in 5k of your vesta should just insta splod... or at least loose all there shields, because your are the genius that discovered how to train CPB 3 on your boff.
I don't mean to sound abrasive about it... I love my shield drain build as well... but really I don't expect every target to be naked after I hit them with a couple shield strips.... We had that game before and it was BS... which is why we where given resists.
My CPB is close to 5k... even at 50% resist it still pulls 2.5k no problems, and throw in another 3k or so from a tachyon beam... and I am stripping most escorts with a bit of weapon fire. I really don't see the issue. Considering where resists are and the amount of regen people have on top of tac team... and there are lots of cases where a shield strip sci is going to help the team more then a fire breathing DPS escort. (you know its true if you fly one.)
Loading shield strips on a sci ship shouldn't be a lazy mans easy win... which is exactly what it was prior to the resistance.
Its not like its expensive to fully spec a shield strip build. 9 points in flow is 900 skill points... that alone will get a CPB 3 to just under 4k.
Perhaps your right though... perhaps we should loose the resistance... and make Hazard Emitters Clear CPB and Tachyon beams.
Maybe if you actually read and weren't so condescending you'd have seen I said I want the captain tree to hard cap at 35% that way if someone wants to resist more they'd have to actually choose to take a console or not to increase their resist.
I've also advocated in the past that offensive science powers need diminishing returns when hit by multiple sources to prevent the "5 sci guy" teams.
So again, where have I ever said I want resists gone?
Do you even Science Bro?
I don't think they need any reduction at all. To be honest... if someone has 6 points or 9 points in right now I don't think it makes much difference so I don't see 35% really changing much.
One think I have always said which I still think should happen.
Resist skills in the tree should calculate backwards.
Meaning those last 3 points from 6 to 9 should be the ones that give the big +.
This would further increase the cost of resists. I know many people put 9 points in and those people would see no change... but there are plenty of people that put 6 points into multiple resist skills because its 90% as good. That simple change could increase the costs of resists enough to make the current 50 at max a bit easier to swallow for the hardcore sci guys like yourself.
No I wouldn't be happy with that because its still a tier 2 skill, everything science is still higher then it (except flow caps which is its own can of worms) they both need to be bumped up a few tiers on the skill tree so people have to actually think their builds through rather then just taking it all.
Do you even Science Bro?
You mean the hard thinking it takes to spec 9 points in tier 1 flow caps and be good to go with a drain build or a shield strip build... or just buff almost every weapon type there is anyway.
Ya hard choice.
Honestly the counter costs double points... don't see the issue.
Pulls and pushes... tier 3... counter tier 4 (well if it works)
Honestly I like the design the counters are one bump higher then the skills... I don't think the resists should be any more expensive then that really... I like the idea of reversing the points for the counters only because it will make it cost aprox = to the points you spend to counter you around 35%... and it will cost more if you want to get that 50% mark. However I do think its fair that you can spec a 50% resist... we are talking about a full 9 points into something to counter niche builds for the most part... heck I know people that run well known high dps escort builds that don't have 9 points in weapon skills because they felt they needed points else where. As plentiful as points are... they are still fairly precious.
Other then allowing us to beat up on Noobies with our builds because they don't spec enough points in resists, I don't see the advantage of making the resists cost much more then they already do really.
I like the thinking... only really 2 issues... 1 dps would fall off even more as glider and tetryon/polaron are buffed by flow as well. Secondly, the pve kids would never let us take away there borg strip protection.
I think perhaps a swap though with the Gravity well tier 3 spec... and the tier 4 counter for it... might be more palatable. Still it would double the PvE kids point spend and there in would be the big QQ hurdle.
NO Energy Drain is a possible sci function, others are zone denial, shield stripper, healer,....
Energy drain as primary means this is the focus of my build (including the cmdr sci station, but including all the rest).
Here is a generic drain build:
2xEs2, Tykens3, 5xFlowC, Jemi Deflector, or the breen set , 2x ES Doff, 1x Tykens Doff, Loloaron weapons
Here is the better drain build
JHEC with 4x DHC loloarons, slavers, or siphon drones....Voila
I left out any universal consoles, that might go with it likie leech, acetons, or the breen ship torpedo, tholioan torp, etc.
Please, you must be kidding by pointing to the high opportunity cost of Tac consoles, and the 5 weapons skills that you need to spec into (just like everybody else).
A sci build requires a lot more choices and has a higher SP cost. I would never use the deflector if it weren't for the Flow C bonus. All this and it is still outperfomed in PvP by pets.
Your greedy sci wanna trump all is a red hering
As for the friggin pets: WAD, i suppose
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I don't know how much of a conscious effort it is, but it seems some players adamantly want a Sci ship to do everything: hard CC (in fact Sci arguably has this game's only CC), heavy duty damage and vastly underrated healing. Well sadly, something has to give. Comboing the former two tends to be a poisonous route for game balance because it narrows down the options for counter play into a game of rock-paper-scissors.
One decent change might be to remove PI bumps from deflector and other utility items, since deflectors are ship-neutral items and a no-brainer (particularly with Borg) for any kind of build. You could also perhaps consider shifting some of PI away from the skill tree and into different low-level BOff abilities, so that Sci users feel less "cheated" when someone resists their drain due to an active defense (i.e. hitting EPtS or whatever) instead of simply having a good skill spec.
There are issues with Science skills but I've noticed before that people tend to take it too far, especially with drain skills. As Antonio posted, there'd fast be very little to stop people running five Sci ship teams, because you'd have the lockdown/damage potential of any other ship tied with great self-sustain and team healing potential (most Sci CC builds don't have enough CC skills without shared CDs to fill out the slots anyway, so they're almost always good to excellent healers to boot, aided by the superb efficiency and incredible scaling of the Aux subsystem for both CC and healing duties).
Power drain is always going to be very difficult to balance because of the nature of subsystems and how they affect your ship in this game. A -100 across the board is actually quite strong and helpful for softening a target, but it's likely underwhelming from the user's perspective. Yo-yoing in the opposite direction, to the point where Siphon 3 bottoms out someone's power, is not a tenable solution either. So power drain is at a bit of an impasse.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
How is that different from an Escort?
That's what Escorts do, they super focus on one single aspect.
I don't even think about running torps, because that's effectively rainbowing my build.
Forces me to use skillpoints I can't afford, forces me to split my tac consoles or have torps be weaker than they can be.
You know all those shield heals everyone is running around with? Those invalidate Escort use of Torps in many situations.
What does not working mean to you?
I think it means it didn't totally cripple/destroy the ship, and I don't think shield drain ship is supposed to totally cripple another ship. Soften them up for a kill? Sure.
Gecko mentioned they are trying to get the effects of drains on your target visible in the UI, I think this will help with part of the perception that it "did nothing".
Otherwise, it's a softening power not a complete death sentence.
You seem to want it to be a death sentence.
You might want to control the rage a bit.
For one thing, the counters to Spike/DPS are far and wide and built into systems all over the place.
Everything from Maneuvers, Structural Integrity, Shield Systems, Armor Consoles, Field Generators, EPTS x2 on basically every single ship, TT, ST, ET, HE, TSS, ES, Aux to SIF, APO, APD, Eng Fleet, Sci Fleet, Scattering Field, etc.
I'm sorry but your rage against Escorts here is completely misplaced, you might want to have a word with Power Siphons and Plasmonic Leech, they're lurking in some other thread around here.
The Breen ship item and Tholian torps are special ship specific btw.
1) I never said high opporunity cost. Feel free go back and try to quote where I said this.
2) Are you saying you want Sci builds to have less choices? Escorts do one thing, that's it. There aren't several roles to build into for an Escort.
You seem to be really upset about pets, like Siphons, and yet here you are defending their right to exist as part of "drain builds".
As a side note, your use of green text makes it really annoying to reply to with the way these forums work. Lol.
This is what I read into the sentiments put forward as well.
The idea that not even PI should stop a dedicated drain build from completely crippling you.
Agreed, but from what I can gleam from mai and havam, they don't want it to soften you up - they want it to cripple you and bottom you out.
Or for one shield stripper to be able to remove all of your shields.
I don't understand why they think it should be like this, when you want to kill a target when two good teams face each other, the DPS/Spike is part of a team effort of debuffs, target control, and focus fire.
Why should 1 drain ship be able to basically serve someone up for a kill by bottoming all of their power out?
Tyken's needs a full rework, I think... perhaps significantly up the base damage, or the area of effect. It only really shines on semi-cheesy five-Tyken's comps
Tachyon Beam is another that I think needs some sort of revamp, basically along the lines of CPB. Love it or hate it, no matter how terribly niche it might be, CPB does have two effects. You can resist the drain but it still breaks stealth (on paper). Tach has no such benefit, and I think that's a major factor behind its ranking in the potential Sci arsenal.
Perhaps instead of just a flat drain, Tach Beam could also substantially debuff the power recharge rate for the target. So energy weapons still fire as hard once the power is back up, but you'd need to wait longer before firing another volley due to the recharge debuff. Just a thought, you could go any number of ways for this skill.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Agreed.
I think this comes down to a question on whether or not we can realistically expect every single power in the game to be PvP viable, as well as equally balanced with other powers.
The Target Subsystem powers in Tac? Currently weak and too high in opportunity cost.
CSV? Why would you use this in PvP beyond spam clearing?
BFAW? Not a power for an Escort.
APB/APD? Constantly cleared to ubiquitous Tac Team.
FOMM? Even easier to clear than APB due to the inability to reapply to the same/different target when TT clears it (requires 1s clear max to be removed).
Aceton, Boarding Parties? It's a long list of skills that are not completely currently PvP viable.
Ultimately in the vast majority of MMOs once you get down to the most chiseled, boiled down, min/maxed end of the gameplay spectrum a lot of powers just get marginalized.
The problem with Tach beam and probably other shield drain powers most likely has to do with how they are currently coded.
Gecko in the UGC Podcast described it as using AttribMod Heal, so they currently function like a heal but with negative amount applied.
The issue with that, is that it means it must affect all 4 shield facings (which is how, IIRC, all shield heals and therefore current shield -heals (drains) actually work right now).
These powers are probably inherently nerfed due to this fact, the fact that they affect all 4 facings.
I think Bort mentioned at one point that if they find a way to make these shield drains affect only 1 single facing then they could rebalance some of these powers, and other effects like tet glider, tetyron procs, to be more powerful because now they would be limited to one facing.
So this might also be a part of what mai is seeing, in that its more than just PI that is an issue he's also attacking 4 shield facings at once. To put this into an Escort perspective, it's like attacking a shield when TT is up.
So he's not attacking a 10k to 20k single facing, he's attacking a 40k to 80k pool of total shields.