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League of Legend Style PVP - What you think?

naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Forget about the Cannons Vs beam debate. How could you have missed this part???
At the 2 hour mark, Geko mentions LoL style PVP where pets become more important.

Link to Podcast

To me, the thing i love about STO PVP is a group of players pitting their combined skill against another group of players. I dont want "critters" to influence outcome. I want Skill and teamplay to determine the outcome.

If i wanted to play a LoL type game, i wouldnt play STO. I would play LoL because thats what it is the best at and the people that play it, love that type of game.


If this has to happen, at least consider the ability to have a que system where 1 is with critters and 1 definately without!

What do you think guys?

PS Gecko - All the guys in the Pandas and most definatel the majority of the PVP community are definitely older than 14 years old. We in the Pandas have people ranging from physicists to aeronautical engineers as an example. That statement to me was very derogatory. Great way to alienate a community and more importantly a group of customers. Awesome way to announce yourself back to Cryptic. GG gecko :(
Post edited by naz4 on

Comments

  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I'd rather they'd designed the Foundry from the start to include PvP maps (that is how DoTA started) and have resource/territory control PvP focus from the Devs w/a yearly Cryptic PvP Arena style tourney w/vanity prizes (ship trophies/skins/titles etc).
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    1: If you think that "critters" influence the outcome of League of Legends, or that it is not about a group of players pitting their combined skill against another group of players, you have obviously not played much League of Legends.

    2: A direct port of LoL-style PvP would not work in STO, but that's for reasons completely unrelated to the ones you listed:

    a- LoL is positionally dependent on fixed structures of restrictive maps: lane, jungle, river, base. In STO (space) PvP, movement is too restricted by maneuverability of ships, the ease with which one can get stuck on terrain, and the fact that out-of-combat speed is so much greater than in-combat speed, for an analogous structure to be possible. Adding a bunch of minions without adding lanes, towers, etc, would just amount to adding a bunch of annoying spam that gets in the way of the perpetual teamfight.

    b- LoL's rts style isometric view and simple movement and shooting interface make interacting with dozens of specific, individually targeted minions and several player characters. STO's tabtargeting and 3-d view with long vision distances and difficult-to-see minions would make this a mess.

    c- LoL's minions are there to facilitate the economic metagame and to soak up the damage of enemy minions and fortifications. STO has no economic metagame, and limited means of determining how NPCs pick targets.

    3: I think that some aspects of LoL could make for interesting PvP maps, in the same way as some aspects of HALO could make for interesting PvP maps: both games have good ideas that are applicable to STO, but STO is not a MOBA and it is not a FPS (not even on the ground, where a great many players fall into the trap of thinking that it is an fps and end up dying horribly in the hybrid action RPG that ground actually is). Fortifications, nexus destruction as a game objective, and NPC objectives that grant buffs, could all be interesting additions to STO.


    PS- All FES members are also over 14.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    guriphu wrote: »
    1: If you think that "critters" influence the outcome of League of Legends, or that it is not about a group of players pitting their combined skill against another group of players, you have obviously not played much League of Legends.

    2: A direct port of LoL-style PvP would not work in STO, but that's for reasons completely unrelated to the ones you listed:

    a- LoL is positionally dependent on fixed structures of restrictive maps: lane, jungle, river, base. In STO (space) PvP, movement is too restricted by maneuverability of ships, the ease with which one can get stuck on terrain, and the fact that out-of-combat speed is so much greater than in-combat speed, for an analogous structure to be possible. Adding a bunch of minions without adding lanes, towers, etc, would just amount to adding a bunch of annoying spam that gets in the way of the perpetual teamfight.

    b- LoL's rts style isometric view and simple movement and shooting interface make interacting with dozens of specific, individually targeted minions and several player characters. STO's tabtargeting and 3-d view with long vision distances and difficult-to-see minions would make this a mess.

    c- LoL's minions are there to facilitate the economic metagame and to soak up the damage of enemy minions and fortifications. STO has no economic metagame, and limited means of determining how NPCs pick targets.

    3: I think that some aspects of LoL could make for interesting PvP maps, in the same way as some aspects of HALO could make for interesting PvP maps: both games have good ideas that are applicable to STO, but STO is not a MOBA and it is not a FPS (not even on the ground, where a great many players fall into the trap of thinking that it is an fps and end up dying horribly in the hybrid action RPG that ground actually is). Fortifications, nexus destruction as a game objective, and NPC objectives that grant buffs, could all be interesting additions to STO.


    PS- All FES members are also over 14.

    I'm not the best at LoL, but i do know that the players who get the most Critter kills early on tend to win the game because they have unlocked the high level abilities sooner. So in summary, critters do influence it early on.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    I'm not the best at LoL, but i do know that the players who get the most Critter kills early on tend to win the game because they have unlocked the high level abilities sooner. So in summary, critters do influence it early on.

    Assuming it's still like DoTA some heros were designed for early game, others mid, and others late. Depending on the Hero/Team makeup an early game advantage could be overcome by turtling until the late game Heros caught up in XP/gold. But, again this is different than STO for some of the reasons the previous poster mentioned.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    At first I was confuzzled since like Guriphu said, I thought Gecko meant something like pet classes (i.e. controlling NPC "pets"), something which isn't that common or integral to League.

    However, assuming he instead meant the mechanic of killing creeps (NPCs) for gold, then Naz is absolutely correct. Performance in League is essentially defined by how well you do in the "farming" phase, one team I played for had a performance metric for how many NPCs you were expected to kill by the ten minute mark in a game.

    I sympathize that a diet of nothing but CnHs and Arenas is getting a tad long in the tooth, but I absolutely would not like to see League mechanics ported to STO. They don't fit at all and the two games are just fundamentally different in every way.

    Even just in terms of fluff and flavor, I've no idea how you'd manage to make this work for space... in League your character kills lesser NPCs to buy items from a gold shop, how pray tell would that translate to space? Salvaging Tuffli NPC hulks for crane arms and stuff to glue onto our ships, Katamari-style?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And getting those creep kills (and denying them to your opponent) is determined by player skill and team skill. LoL is no more "player vs creep" than Starcraft is "player vs crystals" or STO cap and hold is "player vs floaty faction symbol things."
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Sure, absolutely. In fact I think I made another post in a League-related thread (weird how many of these have cropped up lately) saying how you can't "bait" people who would never otherwise play PvP with the prospect of NPCs or "PvEish" content, because the creep mechanic really isn't PvE at all. Particularly in higher play levels, it becomes a game of psych warfare and harass/counter-harass that's about as PvP as you can get.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    At first I was confuzzled since like Guriphu said, I thought Gecko meant something like pet classes (i.e. controlling NPC "pets"), something which isn't that common or integral to League.

    However, assuming he instead meant the mechanic of killing creeps (NPCs) for gold, then Naz is absolutely correct. Performance in League is essentially defined by how well you do in the "farming" phase, one team I played for had a performance metric for how many NPCs you were expected to kill by the ten minute mark in a game.

    I sympathize that a diet of nothing but CnHs and Arenas is getting a tad long in the tooth, but I absolutely would not like to see League mechanics ported to STO. They don't fit at all and the two games are just fundamentally different in every way.

    Even just in terms of fluff and flavor, I've no idea how you'd manage to make this work for space... in League your character kills lesser NPCs to buy items from a gold shop, how pray tell would that translate to space? Salvaging Tuffli NPC hulks for crane arms and stuff to glue onto our ships, Katamari-style?

    It couldn't be done w/current mechanics, but if they added the ability to make PvP maps in the Foundry and allowed for intance only consumables to grant specs/abilities powers in theory there could be a similar mechanism to DoTA level/gear. They would also need to an ability to disable toon/gear attribute/bonuses for that map, to mimic the level progression.

    Also, while generally true regarding early farming at least for DoTA there were toons which were designed to be better after getting near max level (16-25 and even w/weaker gear) where others peaked more around level 6. Further there were early "lane pushers" which tried to end the game very early. Gold was acquired over time, not just for kills. There were certain team makeups that were designed to turtle and counter strike late game.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    It couldn't be done w/current mechanics, but if they added the ability to make PvP maps in the Foundry and allowed for intance only consumables to grant specs/abilities powers in theory there could be a similar mechanism to DoTA level/gear. They would also need to an ability to disable toon/gear attribute/bonuses for that map, to mimic the level progression.

    Also, while generally true regarding early farming at least for DoTA there were toons which were designed to be better after getting near max level (16-25 and even w/weaker gear) where others peaked more around level 6. Further there were early "lane pushers" which tried to end the game very early. Gold was acquired over time, not just for kills. There were certain team makeups that were designed to turtle and counter strike late game.

    DotA (and especially DotA 2, though that has more to do with the game being in its infancy and shakily-balanced) is less farm-centric, sure. Pusher comps were and are pretty common, they're still dominating in DotA 2 since big ticket carry items are just too much of a long-term gamble at their current prices.

    However these are all in essence different means of either acquiring global gold and objectives or denying them to your enemy. A pusher comp is denying the free and lazy babysitter lane that space to do its thing. This is in essence broadcasting the message, "While we may not have a carry, you won't either". Turtling was likewise playing the long game, many of today's aggressive plays had their genesis in countering stuff that was a pain to deal with like Pit + (insert carry) with a ward-happy team.

    I still can't see how you could possibly turn STO into DotA... for spaceships it'd just be so silly.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    PvE elements will be just the thing to bridge the gap between the PvE and PvP communities. Then we'll just need a vote-kick.

    Nubs don't know bout my Jungling Sciscort. Feeders get vote-kicked, HTFU.
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    redricky wrote: »
    Nubs don't know bout my Jungling Sciscort.

    Oh lord with a single line you might actually get me to love League again... 10 sec VM and a Subnuke, where's your Merc Treads god now?!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    i don't even know where to start on this one. I also never played LOL so .... enlighten me.

    I have been on an anti pet rage ever since the kdf got carriers.... I supported meaningful debuff and healing objectives as part of PvE design ...Gozer didn't like it, so back to escorts online. I mean whoever kills some critters the quickest wins, sounds very much like all of STO PvE. Thank got we have those hard to fly debuff and healer classes. ....

    Kerrat was supposed to get fixed...

    .....WTG Gecko. Play with your turrets for the PvP Rep...but private matches with 5 kills are exploits...

    And yes 14 is a long time ago i really don't know how to respond to this kind of stuff....
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    DotA (and especially DotA 2, though that has more to do with the game being in its infancy and shakily-balanced) is less farm-centric, sure. Pusher comps were and are pretty common, they're still dominating in DotA 2 since big ticket carry items are just too much of a long-term gamble at their current prices.

    However these are all in essence different means of either acquiring global gold and objectives or denying them to your enemy. A pusher comp is denying the free and lazy babysitter lane that space to do its thing. This is in essence broadcasting the message, "While we may not have a carry, you won't either". Turtling was likewise playing the long game, many of today's aggressive plays had their genesis in countering stuff that was a pain to deal with like Pit + (insert carry) with a ward-happy team.

    I still can't see how you could possibly turn STO into DotA... for spaceships it'd just be so silly.

    I don't disagree STO into DoTA would be silly (I was mainly just walking the idea to see if it was in theory technically feasible). But, I do think there should've been efforts to make the Foundry into something where people could have developed PvP maps and Scenarios. While, there would be a fair amount of TRIBBLE, it would only take a handful of well done ones to be worthwhile imo.

    Based on the limit the Foundry has for PvE maps, I don't think there's enough flexibility to create something like what DoTA was for Warcraft3. But, it would be interesting to have a giant Nebula map w/shields and minimap disabled, or an entire map of asteroids and other objects for obstruction, or even custum raids on transports/starbases. I do think they missed the boat on this.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, that's definitely true. Honestly you'd think the way they pump the Foundry you'd see them give us more options but that's Cryptic for you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The way it was described...basically sounded like the means for PvE folks to get their PvP Rep without having to PvP. Does that mean we can start calling it LOLPvP Rep?
  • akurie666akurie666 Member Posts: 289 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The notion would translate well into ground.
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    If done correctly it could make cruisers and sci's feel like they are doing more. But I just don't see this being done correctly, plus the communities for games like DOTA and LOL are absolutely terrible.

    Making cruisers and sci's feel like they are blowing tons of stuff up would likely require huge swarms of extremely weak pets, or escorts would still be better at taking them out.

    What they really need to do, imo, is implement star bases in PVP. Put a players fleet base in place of the K-7 style facility we normally see. End the extreme ease in spawn camping. Maybe a mode could be made where killing the star base is the goal or something. Just take the guy with the highest level star base and give it to both sides. They could also pick a level of fleet base to use to increase accessibility or something.

    If having two star bases becomes too complicated they could separate the round into matches where one side defends or attacks.
  • wildweasalwildweasal Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    naz4 wrote: »


    PS Gecko - All the guys in the Pandas and most definatel the majority of the PVP community are definitely older than 14 years old. We in the Pandas have people ranging from physicists to aeronautical engineers as an example. That statement to me was very derogatory. Great way to alienate a community and more importantly a group of customers. Awesome way to announce yourself back to Cryptic. GG gecko :(

    your tears sustain me .....sincerely Meggan Laforge
    3ondby_zpsikszslyx.jpg
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