test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
How to make everyone happy
redricky
Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
Or at least TRIBBLE off the least amount of people with a PvP rep system.
Mod note: Please don't merge this with that other rep system thread, that thread should honestly be locked because the OP just came in and said why he hates PvP and didn't want to have to do it, which would probably get locked pdq if I went to the fed forum and said why I hate playing fed and didn't want to be forced to do it.
I'd like a parallel to the Rom system in that the best way to get Rom marks is to chase bunnies every day. You can grind shooting missions at a slower pace. This means that if you despise PvE missions that feel ported from a fantasy rpg tutorial mission, you can still make NPCs explode for a somewhat reduced flow of Rom marks.
So I hope that a PvP rep system would allow something like the winter ice race (or even better, a space equivalent) to give players a small source of PvP marks while leaving full on space and ground PvP as the way to substantial PvP marks. Now, I personally hated the ice race, I couldn't even bring myself to do it enough to get the Chel Grett, but I think it would accommodate those who can't see the compliment inherent in being focus fired.
You could take an example from the Omega rep too. A PvP rep equivalent of the BNPs could drop only from other players.
The thing nobody is really mentioning, unless I missed it, is the implications of PvP rep rewards being obtainable from private matches. If they are, I don't think life will be altered greatly because people who hate PvP will just farm a private match. This is a sticky issue because Cryptic clearly doesn't want people grinding things too fast, but leaving it as an option gives people a place to go who would otherwise AFK in public matches. Disabling private matches would be horrendous in the eyes of many because it's used for actual decent fights as well as testing game mechanics. Disabling any rewards would also be a bummer for intra-fleet PvP, and would push farmers to AFK public matches.
So, if you could get PvP marks from a race or private matches you would have an alternative to the public queues which many find so awful, but if you had a BNP equivalent that only dropped in public queues from player kills you could motivate people to actually play.
My argument against this is that it would increase the power of premades who would be grinding pugs for Pug Neural Processors. IDK, hopefully a PvP rep system would increase the number of premades so that separate queues could be viable. Premade queues could be further rewarded, with a public queue premade 3-win daily being the equivalent of an elder eppoh and a premade 3 matches played daily being, IDK, a moppet or something.
There's holes in the plan for sure, but the basic idea is to allow some form of advancement, leave private matches functional, and still incentivise honest, competitive PvP.
Mod note: Please don't merge this with that other rep system thread, that thread should honestly be locked because the OP just came in and said why he hates PvP and didn't want to have to do it, which would probably get locked pdq if I went to the fed forum and said why I hate playing fed and didn't want to be forced to do it.
I'd like a parallel to the Rom system in that the best way to get Rom marks is to chase bunnies every day. You can grind shooting missions at a slower pace. This means that if you despise PvE missions that feel ported from a fantasy rpg tutorial mission, you can still make NPCs explode for a somewhat reduced flow of Rom marks.
So I hope that a PvP rep system would allow something like the winter ice race (or even better, a space equivalent) to give players a small source of PvP marks while leaving full on space and ground PvP as the way to substantial PvP marks. Now, I personally hated the ice race, I couldn't even bring myself to do it enough to get the Chel Grett, but I think it would accommodate those who can't see the compliment inherent in being focus fired.
You could take an example from the Omega rep too. A PvP rep equivalent of the BNPs could drop only from other players.
The thing nobody is really mentioning, unless I missed it, is the implications of PvP rep rewards being obtainable from private matches. If they are, I don't think life will be altered greatly because people who hate PvP will just farm a private match. This is a sticky issue because Cryptic clearly doesn't want people grinding things too fast, but leaving it as an option gives people a place to go who would otherwise AFK in public matches. Disabling private matches would be horrendous in the eyes of many because it's used for actual decent fights as well as testing game mechanics. Disabling any rewards would also be a bummer for intra-fleet PvP, and would push farmers to AFK public matches.
So, if you could get PvP marks from a race or private matches you would have an alternative to the public queues which many find so awful, but if you had a BNP equivalent that only dropped in public queues from player kills you could motivate people to actually play.
My argument against this is that it would increase the power of premades who would be grinding pugs for Pug Neural Processors. IDK, hopefully a PvP rep system would increase the number of premades so that separate queues could be viable. Premade queues could be further rewarded, with a public queue premade 3-win daily being the equivalent of an elder eppoh and a premade 3 matches played daily being, IDK, a moppet or something.
There's holes in the plan for sure, but the basic idea is to allow some form of advancement, leave private matches functional, and still incentivise honest, competitive PvP.
_______________
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Post edited by redricky on
0
Comments
and if private ques get exploited, so what. like they came to realize with omega marks, you can only level so fast. the projects have to run daily, thats the time limiting factor. that seems to be why they changed it so we could open out box sooner. even with the flood of marks we can only rank up so fast
There was a lot of good thought in your post, some I agree with some I'm not fully decided on.
This statement stood out at me though.
What is your definition of a premade?
I think, mechanically, this would actually affect "PUGmades" as well.
In effect, restricting "premades" would need to basically separate anyone and everyone who que's up pre-teamed with someone else.
Why?
Well, how does the game know you are a premade? Do you all have the same fleet tag?
What if you're all on vent/ts but not actually in the same fleet?
What if you just x up in OPvP and end up on a team and then hit the ques? You'll need to be separated as well at that point, because you are a premade team.
How do you see the details of this issue?
/10char
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
That would solve most of the complaints about 'ugh premades.'
If people don't want to team up after that, then they need to find a singleplayer game to their liking.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
People that PUG...do team up. They're not looking for a single-player game. Just because they do not want to do a prefab team doesn't mean they're looking for a single-player game.
You won't find the challenge in a PUGmade or Premade that you do rolling in a PUG. You never know what your team will have - you never know what the enemy team will have. You have to take the pieces you have to try to make them work the best against an enemy that is doing the same.
Have you never been down to the local park or gym and had a pick up game of basketball? Just a bunch of guys getting together and having a blast...might meet new friends, etc, etc, etc.
If folks are just running around in closed cliques...well, perhaps they should go find a co-op game instead of a MMO...
If they do give the PVP "Marks" to the 3 matches per reward wrappers, they'd have to fix Shanty Town.. other wise that one will get SORELY abused and FARMED for them in the Cap & Hold variant of those Wrappers. :rolleyes:
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Most pugs are loners. When I pugmade I never have issues that most of the wankers in these forums complain about. If we face a premade and we get rolled, so ****ing what. Move on and grow up.
And btw, we've rolled premades and other pugmades in my pugmades before.
There is no challenge in queuing up solo, it's a total joke. This is coming from someone who pugged for over 2 years. You either end up with total losers who can't tie their own shoelaces or you end up with that one lone guy who normally plays on a team.
Playing with a pugmade or premade is the only way to go.
I for one do not think queues should be separated, just that the mechanism for creating matches should be improved so teams vs teams have higher priority. Yesterday I pugged a little and 4/5 matches were against premade...different premade each time.
How the system can allow this, is beyond me. I could understand that I meet the same premade, because there is not many people in queue, but this...well, at least I killed some of the overconfident folks hehe.
Doesnt mean there couldnt be a queue only for teams tho, something that replaces the awkward personal challange mechanism.
I would like to see a pvp way to earn all the other reps though.
What if there was a PvP vendor that you turned in PvP Rep currency to... in exchange for Omega / Rom and what ever comes next in PvE.
The rate of earning should not be as high as the PvE way... no one wants AFKers... but if I could earn my rom rep in a slow way with out having to go tag stupid rats I would take it.
And second any small improvement wouldn't do any good because pvp is so underdeveloped, and like 90 % of people who use it now play it just because dil rewards only! Making it full of leeches-afkers, leavers, premade team, no of use team players and whatever.:eek:
I started pugging in the mid 90's with FPS games. When I started playing UO in '97, yeah - I met folks and we ran as a group chasing down Reds. Around that same time, I even helped form a HLDM clan before drama tore the group apart and I hooked up with another group of guys that still talk from time to time. We've played several games together in the intervening years. From '97 to '05, when a bunch of us left Shadowbane for WoW - I pretty much did the group thing - clan/guild/etc thing. Since '05, I've been almost exclusively pugging in all the games I've played. I can't even remember all the online games I've played in over 17 years - with around 7 years of it mostly pugging.
Are the PUGs in STO pretty bad? I'm not going to argue that - it would be silly to do so. But they're just like any game where there is a reward for losing - it's not specific to STO. So you deal with folks that just don't care... and yeah, that's frustrating at times...
But man, when you get a group of folks together - that play together - maybe not even saying a single word - but they just gel...they work together, they're all paying attention to what's going on. That rush, that high... it's intense.
STO PvP is casual. There's no loss. There's no sense of risk. I couldn't imagine diluting it by sporting an obvious edge against those people that just don't care. That would bore me to tears.
If there was territory control, if there was the risk of losing what you've built up, etc, etc, etc... then Hell yeah, I'd want in on a team that's going to be communicating, have everything worked out that they can think of, and to lock and load.
That's not STO PvP though. It's wheeeeeee pew pew (make laser sounds), wheeeeee!
There are folks that play for Ego - so it matters to them - but uh, maybe it's just I've gotten up there in years...but being "Big" in a video game just doesn't matter to me. Course, back in the early 90's I almost flunked out of college when I found the rec room on campus had Street Fighter 2. Seeing how long I could stay there on one quarter as other guys fed the machine or not caring how many quarters I had to feed the machine to beat the one guy that always beat me...was the most important thing in life, lol.
The problem with STO PUGs and PvP in general, is the reward for losing. It's not just that you have people that aren't there to win, but you've got people there not even to PvP. They're there for Dil, for Fleet Marks, and potentially they're going to be there for PvP Marks...
It's only going to get worse. I think I've queued once since they added the Fleet Marks...it was just that bad. Like pugging anything but ISE after S7 launched...just bad, man - just bad.
Not sure I'd call them all queues, but there should be three systems - so to speak, imho.
Team/Ranked/League, etc, etc, etc. A better system for teams to play against one another, a way to rank those teams, etc, etc, etc.
PUGmade/PUG w/votekick - for those folks actually interested in the PvP, but that either don't have their team on at the moment or just don't roll with a team.
The Abyss - for those folks that if you had a 2x4 and nobody was looking... /cough
I haven't tagged a single one. Doing the daily in 2-10 minutes provides enough Rom Marks for the daily projects (and even can provide the funds to cover the cost for both Rom/Omega daily projects - as well as providing surplus Rom Marks that you would use for any gear). If need be, running a few Rescues during the Rep Bonus can help with missing Rom Marks. I mean, c'mon - it's the Rom Rep...it's not like trying to grind thousands upon thousands of Omega Marks for STF gear if you don't already have it on a toon.
I definately would second this anytime of the day....
1) Joining some PUG with "people that can' tie their own shoelaces" (thanks snoge00f
2) The challenge is when PUG/Premades meet each other, and you can PUG until this game's severs go dark and you will not find a challenge like that.
That's basically the PUGmade/Premade experience.
Even more so when two teams like that clash.
What you're describing is the rush of the gamble.
You know most PUGs are bad, you know so many players are terrible, but you're rolling the dice in the ques hoping for a good team.
Most people have no real definiton of a "premade", they think anytime 5 guys show up with the same fleet tag it's automatically some monster premade with everyone optimized for a specific strategy or tactic.
The truth is, that mostly happens when there is another team like that to go against.
Most of the times the "premades" stomping the ques were 4 or 5 people who happened to all be on vent at the same time, they've just played enough together and are all generally experienced players so it feels like a nightmare to the average zero-coordination PUGque team.
Random guys that might know each other.
Random guys that might know each other looking for 2 Tac/3 Sci or 3 Tac/2 Sci.
Guys that know each other but have random builds.
Guys that know each other looking for 2 Tac/3 Sci or 3 Tac/2 Sci.
Guys that run in a loose group with each other from time to time.
Guys that run in a loose group with each other frequently.
Guys that have built their group from the ground up with the intention of running with each other.
Guys that have built their group from the ground up with the intention of running with each other that have been doing it for a wee bit of time.
There are a myriad of levels involved...different folks will apply the same labels at different levels.
That is a terrible sugestion and is not in the spirit of pvp.
The best way to ensure a pvp rep system with the blessing of the community is to include a PVP-adventure zone as grand as New Romulus where the Federation and the KDF battle for controll of the territory so they can do their pve missions and earn pvp rep marks.
Please read my thread about the PVP-adventure zone
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=570561
Thats my point most True PvP people DON"T want any stupid rep system.
Rep systems are ANTI PvP in its truest form.
Multiple other Developers have discovered what happens with PvP rep systems. 4-6 months after the inclusion the PvP end of there game Stagnates.
Sorry I want new players to pvp... not jump in get slaughtered by people with 6 months worth of passives and skills/items earned in pvp... and decide its not worth the month long grind of deaths to advance far enough to be competitive. (even if the passives aren't that strong it will be perceived that way by the inexperienced player)
PVP rep is BAD for any game... and it will be the final nail in the coffin of STO pvp should they implement ANY form of PvP reputation.
However players that enjoy PvP and PvP only shouldn't be forced to play an end of the game they don't care for to be competitive either. Which is why they should simply add ways to earn the pve rep with in the PvP system. (as an alternative they could simply disable all PvE Reps in PvP) Obviously the numbers should be low... if you can casually earn the PvE reps in a month... it should take 2 months to earn it through PvP. No one is looking for a replacement for the PvE route. If someone wants the rep done they should go do the PvE track for that rep... However if they really are the type that would simply do nothing but pvp and have it take twice as long to complete why not allow them to do in game what they in fact enjoy.
I may be wrong... but it hasn't worked for any other MMO developer ever. I won't throw up a bunch of examples... I think anyone that has PvPed in any other title ever knows exactly what I mean.
You're going to have to provide an example.
If you're wrong...then everybody that's PvPed in other games where they've gone that route is wrong too, eh?
It does two things:
1) Increases the gap between new and old players.
2) Increases AFKing as folks try to close that gap.
Adding a ranking/ladder to the Q will address the "gap" and adding a anti-afk feature will solve the issue with afk players. I hear a ton of people saying why not but I don't hear anyone presenting alternative ideas.
Like you've said here...it's more than one thing. It's simply unlikely that more than one thing will be done. Many of the issues with STO, imho, are because of trying to fix a tree while ignoring the forest...not taking into consideration the plethora of variables and how they may work together in unintended manners...
RIFT - 6 months after release there pvp was 100% stagnant. (they admitted this) They admitted it in posts and conversations with the community when they started back tracking. Reducing the number of PvP tiers... and removing a ton of mid level PvP gear. Of course they have already lost a ton of PvP players, and frankly the game will never get the momentum it had back.
TOR - Tor choose the PvP gear route... and I don't think I need to go into details for anyone that PvPed there.
Neither one of these tittles was a flawless game in terms of PvP, of course neither is STO. Bottom line however PvP rewards where implemented badly in both. (and frankly I don't much care if it sounds offensive... Trion and Bio are both better developers in general then Cryptic)
Both of those games would have been better to implement a system more akin to Anets GW2 system... where PvP is a system of its own. Where all pve items / skill creep is removed from the equation. It makes both the Pve kids happy as they can continue to get shiny toys, because there are no balance concerns with new gear. It makes the PvP folk happy as everyone has access to the exact same level of gear when pvping... the only person to blame for a loss is yourself.
I found when I did PvP in Tor... the only people that defended high Time sink PvP bonuses where the pvp kids... that enjoyed using there gear advantage to beat on pugs. It was always funny getting those types in matches and slapping them around... although I would find that enjoyable here... as I do now when some douche pops his Rom T5 skill. I would rather have as level a PvP system as possible... and encourage all the new people (look at the boot camp numbers) to continue to play, and grow. When people know the playing field is level... and all that needs to be improved is themselves... well a handful of them will and they will grow the PvP community here.
I spoke out against PvP gear and skills... in both of those games... after experiences with even older games. PvP gear and stats destroy true PvP... and imo that is a fact that no Developer will ever overcome no matter how good intentioned the system is.
Those arn't facts. They are your opinions.
Ladder systems further destroy games.
The issue will be this...
Lets say they add 6 Ranks... and each ladder Que... would include 2 ranks... so 1-2... 3-4... 5-6.
After a month or two.... there will be a few issues.
1) there will be very little new blood coming into the 5-6 Rank... meaning those people get board and start leaving the game.
2) if Pvp uptake isn't large enough the low level ranks also start starving for que pops.
Ladder systems sound good on paper... but even in games with 10x the pop of this one those issues come up. In STO at most times there is just enough people in the ques to pop a handful of games in an evening. Splitting that population even in half would be bad.
Ok... so go and load up TOR f2p and see how long you wait for a PvP pop in a game that still has 10x the population of this one.
Or go over to the Rift Forums... and see how many new posts there are in there PvP section.
Are they opinions... sure they are. All I will say is... the developers of both those titles agree with me. lol They both back tracked on there PvP item systems... one of the TOR devs that I had a good relationship with in the beta, told me himself that they had wished they hadn't itemized PvP at all, but there was no going back now.
So far Cryptic has been wise (ok they have neglected and its turned out well)... to leave Pvp rep systems that grant unique rewards out of the game. (ok they did have PvP merits at one time... but the gear wasn't better then the pve gear)
I hope they don't ever make the mistake of creating a PvP reputation system. Honestly It is my OPINION.
If Cryptic wants to drive PvP... supporting things like boot camp is the way to go.
Bort also recently talked about the ability to play with some game elements in PvP only.
I hope Bort and the Cryptic team takes a long look at one of there strongest competitors right now from ANet... and perhaps on a smaller scale implement some of there ideas. I would love to see a PvP game in STO... where PvE reputation systems are simply shut off. They can use such a system to hinder power creep in PvP... and allow the PvE people to keep all there toys with no worries about a PvP outcry for a nerf.