test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Thoughts on a Tact Capt piloting ships other than escorts in PvP

kronplah78kronplah78 Member Posts: 153 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
Hi STO community,

I'm a dedicated Tactical Capt, and mainly PvP in an escort. I seen and heard talk about tact capts who have used cruisers and, to some degree, carriers in PvP.

My thoughts fall specifically on cruisers such as D'Kora, Galor, and the Fleet Assault Cruiser. For carriers, Jemmy Dread and the Jemmy Heavy Escort Carrier.

What are your thoughts? How effectively can you implement these ships for PvP use as a tact capt?

Thank You
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] THE POWER OF KRATOS!!!
Post edited by kronplah78 on

Comments

  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Personally, I felt a tac in a sci vessel with lots of tac consoles the ideal for PVP.


    "Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.

    Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!

    Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    People are going to come in telling you that tacticals can be a good fit in science vessels, but they are wrong. Stick to your escort.

    Edit: lol, one of them already beat me to it :P
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I have two Tacs. One flies an Ambassador Retrofit. One flies a Mirror Vo'Quv. I wish I could tell you that I fly either of them seriously, but uh - I don't.

    I have gotten a giggle (manly giggle that is) out of using GDF while in the Vo'Quv - who expects GDF from a carrier, right? But I wouldn't take it into any sort of serious PvP.

    Likewise, the Ambassador with 3x Phased Polaron SCs, 3x Polaron Turrets, and a Chron Torp fore/aft... well, it's named Grape Punch. How could you take that seriously? And yep, I run the Jem set on the Ambassador - man, I tell you - the Jem shields on the Ambassador are the most OP thing in the game. Folks take one look at you and they're either laughing their tushie off or they're grabbing for their wastebasket to puke. It allows you to get off some shots before they realize what's going on...

    Ahem, yeah - like I said, I don't take either of them seriously.

    If you wanted some serious ideas about Tacs in something other than Escorts, you might want to check out Drunk's stickied thread of ship builds up at the top of the forums... there's some good information there.

    Still though, I like thinking that folks avert their eyes to the Jem shields on the Ambassador and nobody expects the GDF from a Vo'Quv (not saying they notice it, but they don't expect it)...

    ...er yeah, maybe just check out the stickied thread for some good ideas.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Every combo in this game is doable... and can have success. If you Build to the combos strengths... and if you have the skill to pull it off.

    HB and others will tell you tacs must be in escorts... and sci must be in sci ships... and engies don't belong anywhere but a cruiser... ect.

    They are right if you are of average skill... and/or if you are uncreative.

    Of course the easiest combo to do well is Tac Escort... like most things a small handful of the really skilled will be just that little bit better at it. However almost anyone can pull of capable tac scort.

    Tac Cruiser... I think is perhaps easier to play... however it takes a bit more creativity as far as building your ship to suit your play style goes. There are many ways to make a capable tactical cruiser... and I think with cruisers you will find what works for others may or may not work for you. I think I have seen more then a few good ideas in Don'ts sticky thread at the top of the section.

    Tac Sci... this one is going to take the most skill and the most creativity. As I said people like HB will say its a no go... they are wrong completely. Its a great combo, it is however a very high skill combo. You will be dealing with skills with longer cool downs and in general less burst ability. So timing becomes super important, skill combos matter, and frankly if you mess up there is very little correction room. Having said that people don't expect it to work... I have out dmged and out killed capable fleet mates escorts in my tac scis. I will say this however if the other team has the right counters it can almost neuter your damage, which isn't possible to completely do if you bring a tac scort.

    If you have never left a Scort... I would suggest if you want to try something different to try out the cruiser first. I enjoy taking my galor out from time to time... Klingon side we have great ships like the Fleet K and the Fleet V... fed side I believe there are a few good options for tacs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    Tac Sci... this one is going to take the most skill and the most creativity. As I said people like HB will say its a no go... they are wrong completely.

    The problem with Tac/Sci isn't that it's bad, it's that it isn't as good as the Sci/Sci you've given up for it. Tac buffed sci powers will never make up for one less nuke, scattering field, science fleet, and scan.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    The problem with Tac/Sci isn't that it's bad, it's that it isn't as good as the Sci/Sci you've given up for it. Tac buffed sci powers will never make up for one less nuke, scattering field, science fleet, and scan.

    Like I said it takes some creativity.... is it harder to pull off yes it is. Are 95% o the tactical players in this game going to be worth having in that ship over a competent sci/sci NO. Which is why I suggested he try a cruiser if hes board. ;)

    Really though... the first time I did a tac repulsor ship, ya it caught plenty of people of guard and I smacked around plenty of good teams with it till I got board and moved on.

    These days I could show you how to burst more in a fed fleet sci refit then any escort could hope to pull off... and I won't mention the combo here... cause anytime I fly the BS builds or talk about them here they get done to death for awhile.

    Bottom line yes its doable... you are right though its beyond most players... and there best off in an Escort or perhaps a cruiser if they do it right.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    When it comes to TAcs in other ships, it comes down to what you want to accomplish in a tac in that ship that another captain can't.

    A tac obviously brings damage to the table. But are you trying to improve the sorely lacking pressure damage of a beam boat? Or are you trying to improve the damage of the Science powers?

    Some may even use Tacs to "buff" Their Pets in Carriers via Tac Fleet. It can be scary when a TAc Fleet buffed 4x BoP pets decloak and alpha strike an opponent.

    You just have to remember that while you bring damage to a ship, you don't bring anything else to it. Meaning if your in a Sci, you have to almost load up slightly more on the Defense. Carrier especially needs more defenses then normal because of how slow the ship is, and it's maneuverability. One little thing I will say is never underestimate Polarize hull 3.

    All in all, Tac in anything out side of an Escort, is more then likely A Gimick build. Some times it works, a lot of the times it fails.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    Like I said it takes some creativity.... is it harder to pull off yes it is.

    All the creativity in the world isn't going to let a tac pull an SNB out of his TRIBBLE :P
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    most everything other then tac/escort is a lulz build. the less maneuverable kdf cruisers with a tac captain are surprisingly lethal though, just basically slower, much more tankier escorts. they have a lot more spike soak, but cant speed tank well without APO of course. you can put plenty of strong team healing skills on it too.

    a tac in anything esle can be fun, but the more organized your opponent team is, the closer your effect will be to 0.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    It's best to think of the classes as just a set of extra BOff skills in STO. In that sense, STO is quite restrictive (in that the 'classes' are really only good at one or two things at most) and at the same time there's a lot of fluid wiggle room, since the captain skills don't really have anything to do with your ship or your BOffs other than what you make of them.

    When it comes to choosing a ship type for a captain class, a good thing to do is to ask what you intend to use your captain skills for and whether it's an effective strategy, with preparations for contingencies if things don't go to plan. This goes especially for Tacticals, the most rigid and narrow of the classes. If you put a Tac into a ship, escort or no, you're basically expecting to ramp up whatever your source of damage is, since that's all they're good for. This should give you some perspective for making the decision as to whether your ship is suitable or not.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Oh, I should also probably add that, in my opinion, Sci is by a large margin the most flexible class in STO... I've even heard it described as STO's "true endgame profession". You have a very strong complement of offensive and defensive abilities, you can strip buffs, AoE buff all your outgoing damage or keep your team's shields stable, and all of your skills are scalable.

    The only limitation for Sci used to be that you had to consider how feasible your ship was for getting a subnuke off, but since the Jumper was brought Fedside this is no longer a problem. There's no ship that a Sci can't perform very well in, really. I really love my Sciscort for example.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    I really love my Sciscort for example.

    For sure. I think the reason you don't very many sciscorts anymore isn't because they aren't good, but because the "max 3 science captains" rule most tournaments adopt. Three sci/sci, one sciscort, and one tacscort is a very powerful team-comp as you can brute force your way through almost anything with chained nukes or completely shut down the other side's offensive by saving a couple of nukes to blunt alphas.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    For sure. I think the reason you don't very many sciscorts anymore isn't because they aren't good, but because the "max 3 science captains" rule most tournaments adopt. Three sci/sci, one sciscort, and one tacscort is a very powerful team-comp as you can brute force your way through almost anything with chained nukes.

    Yeah, it's funny cause you'll just never be on a team where you're thinking, "Ugh, we have way too much Sci"... if the rule wasn't in place you can be damn sure there'd be 4 Sci/1 Tac teams ruling the roost.

    What's nice is that DHCs still hit extremely hard on a Sci, espesh on a properly-managed, isolated and debuffed target. It doesn't quite have the 'punch' these days of a Tac for ripping through Fleet shields/passives/consoles, but ofc that's why you have your team there to help out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • edited February 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • wast33wast33 Member Posts: 1,855 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    i absolutely enjoy flying almost anything which i can turn into something like a "good-build" that fits my playstyle (sure, not all ships fit in this).
    and mostly i do not perform that bad in cruisers or my vesta. sure, i don't hit as hard as f.e. in a steamrunner (depends on ship --> d'kora f.e. is just dangerous with a dhc build :)), but on the other hand got more survivability to fight one down/got some baddies (f.e. vm) which can shorten fights out of another perspective than dps-only (as for me: i always start to curse when fighting sci's :D).
    sometimes i tank whole teams in my fleet regent (yeah i know, sometimes ;)). not to talk about hunting down scorts in my beamboat fleet-ent-d or -regent.

    ... this all not is intented to point on: i'm soooo capable and dangerous ^^, what i want to say is: try it on your own. play a bit with abilities, doffs and gear and if you get to combination that fits your style and keeps you somehow alive (and you enjoy flying it), run it. regardless of the ship, only matter is that it fits your style (f.e. sometimes i like to do dps- and heal support in arenas with my f-regent. and if i'm on my own i can pack a decent punch with bo2+3, 4 tac-consoles and my tac-powers. very relaxed playing :)).
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    For sure. I think the reason you don't very many sciscorts anymore isn't because they aren't good, but because the "max 3 science captains" rule most tournaments adopt. Three sci/sci, one sciscort, and one tacscort is a very powerful team-comp as you can brute force your way through almost anything with chained nukes or completely shut down the other side's offensive by saving a couple of nukes to blunt alphas.

    Or it could be that 1 perhaps 2 high level pvp matches happen a month anymore... and to be frank... SNB is overrated in a pug.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tactical Captain abilities buff the damage of the following Science powers:

    Feedback Pulse
    Tractor Beam Repulsors
    Gravity Well
    Photonic Shockwave
    Tractor Beam
    Tyken's Rift

    Of those, the last two can effectively be discounted as sources of worthwhile damage in-and-of themselves. Of the remaining, maximizing the magnitude of the damage they do requires you to slot Particle Generators, forgoing buffing the actual debuffing effect applied by the power, or at least, reducing it in a significant manner for three of the powers when used versus players. Photonic Shockwave will not push as far, Gravity Well's pull radius will be smaller leading to a weaker overall pull, and Repulsors are much less effective at breaking up groups of enemies. That last point may be ideal for dealing damage with TBR, but only when the damage said repulsors are dealing isn't going to be washed away from a nearby Aux2SIF 3 and/or ET.

    Feedback Pulse is the only power who's CC component is actually strengthened by Particle Generators and Tactical Captains... as it's primary role is as an attacker deterrent which returns energy damage, dealt to the defender, to the attacker as kinetic damage with very high shield penetration. It is also reliant on being shot in the first place.

    If you put a Tactical Captain in a Science Ship you'll find it difficult to deal ship crushing damage that instantly eliminates a target setup to kill, while being less effective at setting up kills. You also run a very real risk of dealing a lot of ultimately non-lethal hull damage that can lead to an opponent getting a highly charged Go Down Fighting* which makes it that much harder for your team to stay alive in the first place.

    *Science ships tend to have weak hulls making it riskier still to surf to a low hull percentage before activating the ability.
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What science abilities are boosted directly by sci captain powers in the same way tac captains can boost sci boff powers?
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Two big things have killed tacs in anything but escorts.

    1) Suck-tastic beams, which its not that they became worse it is that passive defense has become so insanely high it is burst or bust.
    2) Neutering of nearly every Sci ability that Tac abilities work with.

    That said their are two things (still gimmicky) that might be interesting with a TAC.

    1) DEM cannon cruiser. Goal is to ignore shields and hit GDF at the right time paired with a nasty Alpha and Omega and shred the hull before the enemy notices. Relying on a bad opponent is likely not a good idea. Excel would be my choice here.

    2) Sensor Analysis + Tric Mines. When you get enough things multiplying these may still be capable of one shots but the lower rank dispersal pattern will hurt. On second thought this is a bad idea.

    Basically for PuGing and having fun go for it, if your serious about performance in a well built team good luck.
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What science abilities are boosted directly by sci captain powers in the same way tac captains can boost sci boff powers?

    What Science Abilites buff Science BOff powers...? Sub-Nucleonic Beam.

    The main problem with Science powers at this time is their debuff components are often (but hardly always) too weak to demand the target use a counter to clear the debuff or be crippled by it. I'll explain.

    Looking at the system of debuffs, debuff clears, and SNB's buff strip and cooldown extension, it seems pretty clear that the intent behind Sci BOff debuffs is to prompt counters -or- the target is crippled.

    "But Corsair! A Tactical Captain can use those same debuffs and make his guns and torps and some of those same debuffs really hurt!" Yes, but he has no ability to control the counters to those debuffs. Often, a Tactical Captain can deal a crippling amount of damage that bypasses shields, more rarely, can the Tactical Captain *kill* reliably with these powers and what's worse, since the damage is not particularly spiky, but dealt in a quick yet measured manner, he risks charging an opposing Tactical Captain's GDF. On top of that, in order to get the most out of the damage these powers can deal, he's going to have to sacrifice strengthening the CC components of his powers. His TBR will push less, her PSW will push less, his Grav Well will be smaller, and her Scramble Sensors will be less scramble-y. Or he improves their CC-effect and forgoes boosting the damage, which hurts a lot because of the way Tactical powers work with the damage numbers to boost them.

    Science Captains play a different game from Tacs, using drains, movement debuffs, disables, holds, and SNB to impede and reduce opponents so your own Tactical Captains can get kills. A Science Captain (outside of STF's) loses very little choosing Graviton Gens over equipping Particle Gens for his Grav Well, for example, as he doesn't multiplicatively increase the damage he does with the power. The main thing that hurts Science BOff powers right now are these:

    1. Extremely powerful passive resists with little cost for acquisition. They've no business in the skill tree, and should only exist as consoles (imagine, if you will, a Jem'Hadar Attack ship's only resistance to drain was a single PI console and whatever it had on the Deflector).

    2. The inability for the game to provide proper disincentives for stacking one type of debuff until the target is crippled beyond fighting capacity. If we tossed PI out tomorrow you would be able to field groups of Sci ships that simply obliterated everyone's shields as though they were tissue paper.
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • hroothvitnirhroothvitnir Member Posts: 322
    edited March 2013
    Where the is a will there is a way.

    Tac in a sci. Yup probably a few ways to do that to great effect. I stole some ones burst vesta build and its great fun, 8 seconds of godlike power followed by 5 minutes of cooldowns. But its really likely that someone blew the hell up during those 8 seconds.

    Eng in an escort. Thats easy you seen what nadion on that andorian ship does with canon skills + BO? its dumb and scary.

    And I've seen one really hilarous sci in a GalX decloak subnuke critlance.


    So decide what you want to do, Damage survive support ect then just start looking at what you can do that that results in a really focused pursuit of that. If it puts you in a sci/escort/cruiser, so be it.
  • defbond7defbond7 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Aux2Batt does miracles for tac's in any type of ship capable of supporting it, and saying tac's are not viable in anything other than escorts is just short sighted and I can prove it. So far I have 2 non-escorts on my fed char that I use with great success for PvP, my KDF char uses Battlecruisers exclusively. One is an aux2batt Vesta, DDIS knows very well how dangerous that can be because he posted a build on another thread underlining how you can basically spam VM, ST, EWP and other abilities which are not aux dependent to utterly frustrate and immobilize and destroy your opponent with a well timed DHC spike.

    I was getting killed 1v1 against bug ships nearly 80% of the time, the other 20% was just incompetent players...since I have switched out of escorts I no longer fear the bug, I go in knowing confidently that I can tank their damage, since there is no point in trying to outmaneuver them even in an escort, and I have access to enough disables that I can wear them down with a combination of spike and pressure damage.

    My second ship is the free Ambassador which I will post here. I don't consider every ship I have to be PvP worthy, I normally rotate which ships I use so I don't get bored. So that being said this build fits those days when I just want to cruise, be able to tank, and do pressure damage which is surprisingly high, coming out 1st or 2nd in damage in many pugs, and I will point this out to my fellow teammates at the end, its just not acceptable that a free ambassador is out damaging Kumari's and other escorts. This build is just an example of how a tac can be quite viable in a non-escort

    Defbond's 2 Aux2batt Free Ambassador:

    Fore Weapons, 3 Mk XII Beam Arrays [Accx2 or x3], 1 Omega Torpedo Launcher
    Aft Weapons 3 Mk XII Beam Arrays [Accx2 or x3], 1 Breen Transphasic Cluster Torp


    THY1, TS:E1
    TT1


    EPtS1, AtB1, RSP2, DEM3
    ET1, AtB1


    TB1, HE2, VM1

    Equipement

    Elite Fleet Covariant Shields ResA
    Borg Deflector
    Borg Engines

    Consoles

    Subspace Jumper, Neutronium, Borg, RCS

    2x Field Generator

    3 Energy Damage Type

    Doffs

    3 Purple Tech Doffs, 1 VM, 1 BFI

    Boffs

    1 Romulan Tac with Operative passive
    4 Humans

    Strategy

    The Merge: Begin with TT1, THY1 then once the opponent fires the first volley Subspace Jump, DEM, APA, VM1 and TB1, thus avoiding the Alpha and disabling their ship, aww you used Tac Team to avoid my alpha, what are you gonna do about the VM now :confused:

    The Weardown: Once you are behind the ship begin broadsiding, the VM will wear off by now and your opponent will be angry and quite aggressive, tank the remaining Alpha with TT1, BFI, and EPtS1 while wearing down the hull with DEM3, an escort will eventually get your shields down, now is the time for RSP2(At global). VM will be back up as it is at global. It will take some clever maneuvering to get your opponents ship in your 90' arc again but wait for his/her APO to finish then engage tractor beam, which is at global. Continue spamming DEM3(which is also at global:)) and the for mentioned steps until their hull is getting low, 30% or less preferably.

    The Final Blow: With your opponents hull low, and your APA and subspace jump back from cooldown, repeat the merge strategy, the DEM will continue weakening their hull only this time instead of a sustained broadside, pass your opponent and let the cluster torp fire, 75% of the time the cluster torp will finish them off, if you are lucky even chain critting at 3k per torp which is 30k hull damage, the rest of the time just let the DEM snack on their hull and finish off whats left. Relax now, and revel in the fact on how you owned a lockbox ship in the free ambassador, moreover as a tac in a cruiser...

    A Final Note: Hazard Emitters is aux dependent, I chose not to include EPtA in my build because if I need to hull heal myself or an ally with aux2batt running I will switch to a high aux power level preset and the aux power will come back up, if its an emergency pop an aux battery and use HE. The rest of the time, try to time ET with RSP, its the one time when TT is not needed so you can use it without fear of being spiked from one side. This is usually enough combined with the human boffs to keep your hull intact...
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What Science Abilites buff Science BOff powers...? Sub-Nucleonic Beam.
    The sub-nuke seems to be the only thing sci officers are good for... From my perspective, tac officers can directly modify the effectiveness of sci boff powers more often than sci captains can, from fire on my mark to one of several alpha strikes. Point being, a sci officer doesn't really need to be in a sci ship or have any real ownership over the abilities sci ships have...
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The sub-nuke seems to be the only thing sci officers are good for... From my perspective, tac officers can directly modify the effectiveness of sci boff powers more often than sci captains can, from fire on my mark to one of several alpha strikes. Point being, a sci officer doesn't really need to be in a sci ship or have any real ownership over the abilities sci ships have...

    Well, that's a little silly... a Tac/Sci can't heal nearly as well as a Sci/Sci, since SF is a heal multiplier as well as a flat resist (it buffs Emitters by a good chunk).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    vids and guides and stuff

    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Sign In or Register to comment.