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problem with engineers

borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
my brother is an awesome pvper, he killed some of the strongest guys i know with mirror ships, but now he is going to change his engineer for a tactical officer, and let me tell you why...

attack pattern alpha can give you more than 50%dmg for 30secs, almost all captain tactical skills give you damage increase, attack pattern alpha is op compared to rotate shield frequency, a lot... let's not talk about nadion inversion ( usefull only in 5% of the pvp's and 0% usefull on pve, even subnuke can be usefull on pve ) and the eps power transfer is nothing compared to any of the tactical/science skills, not saying to nerf tacticals, just boost engineering captain skills a little, they are weak, and some of them look useless on pvp and pve, miracle worker should have a boost too, apa gives you more than 50%dmg, turn rate boff, and the rest of fancy immunities too, while the miracle worker gives you something like 12k hull and 4k shield per face, its nothing...

nadion inversion should have an immunity to disables and holds
rotate shield frequency gives a good shield resis, but its not 50% to compensate apa
miracle worker could have a boost of 10% too

just an idea... you may find this stupid, but please, create an engineer and a tactical, both with the skills needed to max captain skills and compare the numbers...
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Engineers are not bad, they just tend to get out-shined by the other two more often due to their captain powers.

    Now...

    Rotate Shield Frequency is probably the best shield regen and resist boost in the game, bar-none. It's based on your current shield power, so if you use E-power to shields, Aux to Battery, or a battery, it can be a huge boost to resistance and regen.

    EPS is always good, because of the large power boost and power transfer boost plus the fact that it can be given to someone.

    Nadion...yeah, always the 'meh' of engineering captain powers. If it gave immunity to subsystem disable for the duration, that would go a long way in helping it be more useful.

    Miracle Worker, it is meant to be the 'oh ****' button for an engineer, by restoring all your subsystems and giving the huge instant heal to shields and hull. It can't be SNBed off, because it's instant.

    Now, one small thing that could help an engineer a lot would simply be to let Nadion and Miracle Worker be given to others. That alone would provide a tremendous boost to their usage, because while the powers aren't bad, they can only be used on the engineer, while engineers are meant to take a support role like that.

    At the very least, the option to give it to others would open up some more possibilities in PvP.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • darkfader1988darkfader1988 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The problem with Engineers is that they are simply not worth shooting at most of the time, or they can simply be ignored and kill the rest of the team.

    They are supposed to be a Tank/Healer, and they can do the healer part equally well as a Sci or a Tac even in a healboat, but they just add a little bit more tank to themselves (RSF/Miracle etc)

    But if thats all they add in PvP, its not enough. Engi's NEED to make a reason for people to shoot at them, and a good enough team can get past those nifty heals u can throw out and simply ignore you.

    They also got quite some useless Captain abilities compared to a Sci and a Tac.

    EPS isn't that great as it looks, and even as a team skill throwing it at your Escort team player it isnt great.

    Nadion... well, ugh. What can i say. Even a dual beam overload setup doesnt make this ability right.

    Engi fleet.. meh, worst of all fleet abilities imo. The hull resist buff is very mediocre and the other buff it gives... um.. 1,2 points to your power levels at most :O

    Miracle worker... Um i guess its not bad but certainly looks better then it is. Its not great.

    With that said, both APA/GDF and Subnuke/sensor scan make for Tac and Sci basically outperform an Engi in terms of teaming anyway because all those abilities are way more contributing to a team, RSF really isnt, and so are alot of other engi captain abilities.

    Oh im sure Engi is still great if u wanna make a total zombie build im sure it will contribute to it.
    MT - Sad Pandas
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The problem with Engineers is that they are simply not worth shooting at most of the time, or they can simply be ignored and kill the rest of the team.

    They are supposed to be a Tank/Healer, and they can do the healer part equally well as a Sci or a Tac even in a healboat, but they just add a little bit more tank to themselves (RSF/Miracle etc)

    But if thats all they add in PvP, its not enough. Engi's NEED to make a reason for people to shoot at them, and a good enough team can get past those nifty heals u can throw out and simply ignore you.

    They also got quite some useless Captain abilities compared to a Sci and a Tac.

    EPS isn't that great as it looks, and even as a team skill throwing it at your Escort team player it isnt great.

    Nadion... well, ugh. What can i say. Even a dual beam overload setup doesnt make this ability right.

    Engi fleet.. meh, worst of all fleet abilities imo. The hull resist buff is very mediocre and the other buff it gives... um.. 1,2 points to your power levels at most :O

    Miracle worker... Um i guess its not bad but certainly looks better then it is. Its not great.

    With that said, both APA/GDF and Subnuke/sensor scan make for Tac and Sci basically outperform an Engi in terms of teaming anyway because all those abilities are way more contributing to a team, RSF really isnt, and so are alot of other engi captain abilities.

    Oh im sure Engi is still great if u wanna make a total zombie build im sure it will contribute to it.

    I agree with the Pony.



    Here's my short list of easy tweaks that I'd like to see:


    1) MW & RSF become castable on others. (Healer role improvement)
    2) MW gets a resistance component, similar to Aux to SIF. (Healer role improvement)


    Here's my idea for a new mechanic:

    1) Nadion or EPS are slightly re-written. They keep all of the available functionality they have no with no changes.
    2) The adjusted power allows them to absorb X% of incoming damage from one Ally of choice for X amount of seconds - perhaps 15s to 30s. (Tanking role creation).
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    2) The adjusted power allows them to absorb X% of incoming damage from one Ally of choice for X amount of seconds - perhaps 15s to 30s. (Tanking role creation).

    That give people (yet another) reason NOT to shoot an engineer as its a waste of ammo...
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ah the engineer... My first character was an Engineer in an Escort.. This was back before they created the concept of F2P.. and before EPS consoles became a thing of the past due to the introduction of a skill that provided that very same effect.

    Nadion Inversion is a power I have been tooling with.. and it does work well with Beam Overloads, especially if your running multiple beams and Multiple Beam Overloads. Nothing says spike shot like 3 Beam overloads back to back and not diping below 100 Weapon power. Other wise, that's really all it is.. a novelty ability that, while useful, can be simulated better in other ways, especially thanks to Duty Officers. (I'm looking at you DEM DOFF)

    Originally, EPS Power flow was a great effect. It was like candy to Escorts. Fueling their firepower and making them monsters.. Then they came out with the skill change... And that's when EPS became.. meh.. It's cute, but it doesn't provide the same effect it used to. It might be nice if it gave the same kind of bonus that Batteries gave when they are used.. A scaling bonus with a max of 5% to Damage, Shield Resist, Turn Rate/Speed, and Stealth Sight to the target under the effect of EPS Power flow. But then that might make it Overpowered. *Shrug*

    Rotate Shield Frequency used to be a great effect if not Overpowered. I believe (Could be wrong here) It's shield regeneration and Resists were MUCH higher then they are now. I remember being able to use Rotate Shield Frequency and Tac Team in order to Foil some Alpha strikes. Lately how ever, with how shield damage and Shield Drain effects (and the newly introduced Disruptor Shield Resist Penalty) it's becoming harder and harder to keep your own shields up. (Not that it's a bad thing! Encourages Teaming!!)

    Miracle Worker.... Yeah this one used to be overpowered.. Used to grant you a full 100% Heal to hull and shields. Then they tweeked it to work with Crew.. how ever since you Crew is nearly always dead they changed it to a flat amount based on your skills in Hull and Shield repair.. In bigger ships, it hardly heals much.. in smaller ships it almost feels like it did back in the day. (My Khyzon has been almost fully healed by Miracle Worker as of late) It's still an "Oh ****" button..but it's not as powerful as Reverse Shield Polarity 1 can be. I do also like it's an Engi team as well in some respects. Might be nice if this also gave a small Hull and shield Resist for say.. 5-15 Seconds.. But not necessary. :)
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    That give people (yet another) reason NOT to shoot an engineer as its a waste of ammo...


    It still lets the Eng, the character best suited to absorbing damage, absorb punishment meant for someone else.

    Anyway it's just an idea, if you have some ideas that could see the Eng be less ignorable as a target that doesn't give it Tac damage or Sci debuffs, please post it here.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    It still lets the Eng, the character best suited to absorbing damage, absorb punishment meant for someone else.

    Anyway it's just an idea, if you have some ideas that could see the Eng be less ignorable as a target that doesn't give it Tac damage or Sci debuffs, please post it here.

    One thing I've always wondered is why they don't let Taunts effect PVP? I kinda liked, for example, in City of Heroes, where a Taunt would actually force your targeting to change off to them. Of course the Duration was long, so that they couldn't spam it really on you all the time, but it was a nice little effect. Gave a Damage Penalty too which also helped. :)
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is why they don't let Taunts effect PVP? I kinda liked, for example, in City of Heroes, where a Taunt would actually force your targeting to change off to them. Of course the Duration was long, so that they couldn't spam it really on you all the time, but it was a nice little effect. Gave a Damage Penalty too which also helped. :)

    I don't know, that's a good question honestly.

    One problem I can see is that there is no actual Taunt button (although we do now have APD + Taunt Doff), the other is that threat control has been thematically linked to Tactical and any captain can train it (and nearly every PvPer has it for the resistance, lol)


    I think this vein of idea is a good one though, and I'd love some kind of similar functionality to be added to Eng.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    One thing I've always wondered is why they don't let Taunts effect PVP? I kinda liked, for example, in City of Heroes, where a Taunt would actually force your targeting to change off to them. Of course the Duration was long, so that they couldn't spam it really on you all the time, but it was a nice little effect. Gave a Damage Penalty too which also helped. :)

    Isnt it known as scramble sensors??....lol
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Isnt it known as scramble sensors??....lol


    AKA: The Larry, Curly, Moe, and Shep Button.
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Isnt it known as scramble sensors??....lol
    AKA: The Larry, Curly, Moe, and Shep Button.

    Hehe, no no that's the "I Dont' care who you target! EVERYONE'S AN ENEMY!! RARRARRAR!

    What I'm referring to would be..

    "Our healer's being targeted! Quick, Cruiser, Taunt that Escort!"
    *Cruiser activates "Taunt" based skill.. Escort suddenly switches targets to the Tanky Cruiser* :)

    Something like this could also be nifty with Feedback pulse. :D
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    All they have to do to correct the class.

    Is;

    1) Return the power drain mechanics to there properly balanced and working ways. Escorts will all energy SHOULD require at least 1 EPS unit. (this change will make EPS transfer look godly... and give Nadion a true reason to exist.)

    2) Take the toys given to everyone else that does Nadions Job AWAY... change the 2 piece proc on the borg toys... and change the Marion Doff.

    3) Half the effect given by both Starship Warp Core Efficency... and the Warp core potential. (this again would make EPS looks like a good skills again)

    4) The idea of making MW and RSF castable is a good one... if people are ignoring the healer give them the ability to use there self buffs on the team... this would likely get the other team to focus the healer after they cast em on someone... I like that mechanic. As far as Engi Fleet... yes it is the worst of the 3 options... perhaps now that the Human boffs leadership traits work, they could work a hull regen rate boost into it... I think that would bring it into line with the other 2.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Because Taunts, threat mechanics, the Trinity...is basically a really bad joke. It's one of the worst things ever introduced into gaming and has no place in PvP.

    It's one thing for a "Tank" to position themselves - it's another for the "Tank" to make a comment about some mob's mother in a language it doesn't understand and that mob deciding to beat on the "Tank" while ignoring the "Healer" keeping the "Tank" alive and all the "DPS" guys that are actually killing the mob. It's beyond stupid.

    I'm all for the Trinity...without the bogus artificial threat mechanics. Let that meatshield stand between the angry mobs and the guys in dresses....but it's just silly for that guy to talk about what a good laid their mother was and have them ignore the guys in dresses.

    If Jerry doesn't want Tom to shoot at him for a bit...Jerry can Jam Tom. Jerry should be able to mandate that Tom shoot at somebody else nor should anybody else be able to mandate Tom shoot at them instead of Jerry...
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    i would be happy if Cryptic would actually acknowledge that one class has become completely obsolete. Baby steps.

    I know some people think of my comments on the subject as whining. But how can we talk about balance, or grand idea proposals, if the game that is in front of us, has lost 1 whole class?!?! Whatever you think of the trinity, but thats what the whole system was designed for. No big or small fix will do squad to balance, without addressing this basic issue.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Because Taunts, threat mechanics, the Trinity...is basically a really bad joke. It's one of the worst things ever introduced into gaming and has no place in PvP.

    It's one thing for a "Tank" to position themselves - it's another for the "Tank" to make a comment about some mob's mother in a language it doesn't understand and that mob deciding to beat on the "Tank" while ignoring the "Healer" keeping the "Tank" alive and all the "DPS" guys that are actually killing the mob. It's beyond stupid.

    I'm all for the Trinity...without the bogus artificial threat mechanics. Let that meatshield stand between the angry mobs and the guys in dresses....but it's just silly for that guy to talk about what a good laid their mother was and have them ignore the guys in dresses.

    If Jerry doesn't want Tom to shoot at him for a bit...Jerry can Jam Tom. Jerry should be able to mandate that Tom shoot at somebody else nor should anybody else be able to mandate Tom shoot at them instead of Jerry...


    You might want to sit down, have a cupcake or something. :P


    I think you're really taking the abstraction of a taunt way further than it needs to be taken.

    It's just a mechanic to represent getting the enemy's attention, that's all. ;)


    I like the idea of said ability to reduce the target's offense in some way, either an ACC penalty or a DMG penalty, unless they actively target the ENG.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I couldn't even begin to guess how many Engineer threads there have been. With both of my mains being Engineers - back when I started, my first toon was an Engineer - there have been more than a few discussion on them...even before F2P, folks were discussing them.

    I'll go with my standard - the only thing separating the three Careers in Space are the Five Innate Abilities. I could probably search for the terms "five innate" and find all sorts of posts on the matter.

    But I'll repeat the gist of it again, anyway.

    Look at the five abilities on Ground. Look at them in Space. That's what's wrong with Engineers.

    Look at a Tac on Ground and in Space.
    Look at a Sci on Ground and in Space.
    Look at an Eng on Ground and in Space.

    Tac's "big" difference? Security Escort vs. Go Down Fighting.

    It's the closest to what it is, regardless of where it is with 4 of 5.

    Sci...gives up a PBAoE Placate for SNB in Space? Really? Where did that come from? Why not a PBAoE Placate in Space as well? Nanoprobe on Ground - Photonic Fleet in Space? Hrmm...yeah...okay...3 of 5.

    Eng though...Eng...sheesh, am I right? 2 of 5 come close. They give up a Barrier (can be found in the C-Store) for a power boost (can be found all over the place). They give up a Pet (can be found in various other locations) for drain resistance (can be found in the skill tree or in gear). They give up a Lance (can be found in various ships from the C-Store) for a broken heal that doesn't always repair disabled subsystems (can be addressed in multiple ways - and stop for a moment, consider how much healing and resistance you can get out of an AtS3 while waiting on that MW CD, eh?).

    But wait, that's not really the gist of the issue - that's more of a personal thing, right?

    It's that the Engineer is not really a "team friendly" Career in PvP. It's got some nifty additional survival abilities if you want to spend the points in Threat and be the Tank in PvE...but uh...PvP? Even the majority of the suggestions where folks want to "fix" the Engineer is really just a case of wanting to make them the Healer.

    Step back though - take a look at the three Careers.

    Look at the Ground abilities.

    Tac: Self Offense (Buff), Offensive Support (Debuff), Offensive Support (Buff), Offensive Support (Pets), Offensive Support (Buff)
    Sci: Offensive Support (Debuff), Self Defense (Placate), Defensive Support (Buff), Offensive Support (Debuff), Defensive Support (Buff)
    Eng: Self Defense (Buff), Defensive Support (Object), Defensive/Offensive Support (Pet), Offense (Attack), Defensive Support (Buff)

    Tac: 4x Offensive Support and 1x Self Offense
    Sci: 2x Offensive Support, 2x Defensive Support, 1x Self Defense
    Eng: 2x Defensive Support, 1x Defensive/Offensive Support, 1x Self Defense, 1x Offense

    Get the gist there?

    Tac has 4x Offensive Support and 1x Self Offense.
    Sci has 2x Offensive/2x Defensive and 1x Self Defense
    Eng basically has 2 Defense/2x Offensive and 1x Self Defense

    Sci is Off/Def while Eng is Def/Off...while Tac is just Off.

    A nice mix of Offense, Off/Def, and Def/Off... bazinga - a team, eh?

    Let's move to Space.

    Tac: Self Offense (Buff), Offensive Support (Debuff), Offensive Support (Buff), Self Offense (Buff), Offensive Support (Buff)
    Sci: Offensive Support (Debuff), Offensive Support (Debuff), Defensive Support (Buff), Offensive Support (Pets), Defensive Support (Buff)
    Eng: Self Defense (Buff), Self Defensive/Offensive (Buff), Self Defensive/Offensive (Buff), Self Defense (Heal), Defensive Support (Buff)

    So we're looking at...

    Tac has 3x Offensive Support and 2x Self Offense
    Sci has 3x Offensive Support and 2x Defensive Support
    Eng has...WTF happened to Eng? 1x Defensive Support and basically 4x Self Defense.

    On Ground we had a nice mix - Tac Off, Sci Off/Def, and Eng Def/Off. We move into Space and suddenly the Engineer is a Tank? He or she is no longer the Def/Off guy, they're a Tank? WTF?

    It's kind of funny when you look at Ground and see where the Taunt for a tank actually is... Tac. Whether in a Kit or on a Boff. Draw Aggro.

    But somehow the Eng ended up the Space Tank? WTF?

    If somebody wants to be the Space Tank, let them grab a tanky ship - put points in Space Threat - and grab a healer or two. There's no reason for a Career to be forced into that position because of ability selection.

    Making EPS and MW "castable" on others doesn't fix the problem, either - imo.

    Want to fix Engineers? Then look at Ground. Look at how both Tac and Sci basically kept their identity and let Engineers keep their identity.

    Engineers should either be:
    2x Defensive Support, 2x Offensive Support, 1x Self Defense
    or
    3x Defensive Support, 2x Offensive Support

    Then you'll still have your:
    Tac Offensve
    Sci Off/Def
    Eng Def/Off

    Oh... a team.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You might want to sit down, have a cupcake or something. :P

    Bah, all I've got is bread and pink grapefruit juice. :(

    I really do despise artificial threat mechanics. Doesn't mean I haven't abused the Hell out of them in various games...but I do despise them. :)
  • doomiciledoomicile Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Prior to Season 3 and F2P, with all the skill changes and what not, Engineers used to be the best at their role as a tank and healer.

    MW used to be castable on others and it was a 90% Hull heal, with skills and SIF consoles, and added a nice dmg resist to boot.

    As others said, EPS was a lot more useful prior to the current skill system but as it stands, noone's really suffering from energy drain.

    At some point, just before S3, I believe, Shield resists took a blanket 45% nerf across the board. This included RSF. Granted RSF made you near impenetrible at the time but I think with the current skill system, the Doff's and silly consoles, restoring RSF to its previous glory wouldn't be game-breaking. Especially when speed tanking is far more effective anyway.

    Nadeon Inversion was never good.


    This is all space-based of course.


    As for ground, well, Engineers are a one-man demolition team. But who plays ground?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    Lately how ever, with how shield damage and Shield Drain effects (and the newly introduced Disruptor Shield Resist Penalty) it's becoming harder and harder to keep your own shields up.

    Sorry, this is off-topic, but what is the "Disruptor Shield Resist Penalty"? I thought the disruptor proc only affected hull. Did they change something?
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    frtoaster wrote: »
    Sorry, this is off-topic, but what is the "Disruptor Shield Resist Penalty"? I thought the disruptor proc only affected hull. Did they change something?

    That's Elite Fleet Disruptors.

    2.5% chance to proc -25% shield resistance.

    Even though you are limited to ACCx1 maximum and stuck with DMGx2, this is easily a better proc than Tetryon could have ever hoped to be and imo is just a wee bit too strong for a passive proc.


    The Fed side one is similarly bad, although not nearly as strong (IMO, anyway).

    IT's a passive 2.5% to heal your shields. So more passive healing...from shooting people.
  • moronwmachinegunmoronwmachinegun Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Simple fix - Add a DOFF skill that causes BFaW to proc a hit target to change their target to you. You trigger BFaW, there's a chance for every target you hit to switch to you (this proc should be in two parts, a chance to trigger when BFAW starts (say 10%-25% based on rarity), then a chance to cause the targeting switch per hit (again 10-25% based on rarity). This would force enemies to deal with the engineer/tank first since it would be difficult to attack/kill anyone else with the target shifting.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Simple fix - Add a DOFF skill that causes BFaW to proc a hit target to change their target to you. You trigger BFaW, there's a chance for every target you hit to switch to you (this proc should be in two parts, a chance to trigger when BFAW starts (say 10%-25% based on rarity), then a chance to cause the targeting switch per hit (again 10-25% based on rarity). This would force enemies to deal with the engineer/tank first since it would be difficult to attack/kill anyone else with the target shifting.


    Anyone with a beam of some kind can use BFAW.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Simple fix - Add a DOFF skill that causes BFaW to proc a hit target to change their target to you. You trigger BFaW, there's a chance for every target you hit to switch to you (this proc should be in two parts, a chance to trigger when BFAW starts (say 10%-25% based on rarity), then a chance to cause the targeting switch per hit (again 10-25% based on rarity). This would force enemies to deal with the engineer/tank first since it would be difficult to attack/kill anyone else with the target shifting.

    And if this was ever introduced into PvP in STO... I'd walk away, create a blog, Facebook page, print out flyers and stick them under the windshield wipers of all the cars at the local mall... warning people to stay away from STO.

    Why on Earth do people think that forcing a player to target something is okay?

    It's one thing to have an ability that says don't target me - it's quite another to say that the player should target something specific. It's mind boggling that anybody would think this would be okay. Are people so bedazzled by the mind-numbing usage of artificial threat mechanics in PvE in so many games that they've lost all sense of what a complete fail of a system it is...that they want to introduce it to PvP as well without the least consideration of what it would mean?
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    And if this was ever introduced into PvP in STO... I'd walk away, create a blog, Facebook page, print out flyers and stick them under the windshield wipers of all the cars at the local mall... warning people to stay away from STO.

    Why on Earth do people think that forcing a player to target something is okay?

    It's one thing to have an ability that says don't target me - it's quite another to say that the player should target something specific. It's mind boggling that anybody would think this would be okay. Are people so bedazzled by the mind-numbing usage of artificial threat mechanics in PvE in so many games that they've lost all sense of what a complete fail of a system it is...that they want to introduce it to PvP as well without the least consideration of what it would mean?

    What do you call Scramble Sensors and Anti-matter Spread? :rolleyes:
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    webdeath wrote: »
    What do you call Scramble Sensors and Anti-matter Spread? :rolleyes:

    They don't force you to target somebody specifically. They mess with your sensors. If there was an AoE Jam Sensor that removed everybody else from your screen outside of the person that used it...it still wouldn't be the same as forcing somebody to target a specific player. :rolleyes:
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    They don't force you to target somebody specifically. They mess with your sensors. If there was an AoE Jam Sensor that removed everybody else from your screen outside of the person that used it...it still wouldn't be the same as forcing somebody to target a specific player. :rolleyes:

    But... a Scramble Sensors 3 will force change your target on you randomly. :confused:
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    But... a Scramble Sensors 3 will force change your target on you randomly. :confused:

    Change it again. It's not the same as being forced to target somebody. You're not locked on that person. You don't have to take actions against that target. You still have free will - you still have control.

    Imagine instead - that you don't have that control. You can't target anything other than what has taunted you. That if you were able to target something else, that by the time you had, you were back to whatever taunted you.

    SS3 requires you pay attention. It's a different ballpark than a taunt.
  • doomiciledoomicile Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ehhemm, Engineers....
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Change it again. It's not the same as being forced to target somebody. You're not locked on that person. You don't have to take actions against that target. You still have free will - you still have control.

    Imagine instead - that you don't have that control. You can't target anything other than what has taunted you. That if you were able to target something else, that by the time you had, you were back to whatever taunted you.

    SS3 requires you pay attention. It's a different ballpark than a taunt.

    That's what I thought you were getting at, thank you for clarifying. Yes, we do not need Force Attacks. Ever. It's a much more elegant solution, though harder to design, to design a scenario where targeting an Engineer is useful.


    Tactical Captains make the opponents of their team dead, or at the very least, are likely to make them much closer to dead, and through this capacity to kill must be dealt with to keep your team from existing to drive up your opponent's score. This is accomplished through resisting & repairing their damage as well as controlling their ability to attack effectively via debuffs of various flavors.

    Science Captains make your team's opponent's dramatically more vulnerable to being killed while simultaneously reducing the danger that opponent Tactical Captains pose by assisting their own team with resisting the damage dealt by said Tactical Captains.

    Engineering Captains are able to, themselves, resist tremendous amounts of damage, but not more than an opponent team can bring to bear on them and are otherwise reliant on the same Bridge Officer powers to support their team... the same powers available to the other two Captain types.
    If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
  • edited February 2013
    This content has been removed.
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