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Let's collect ideas on how to get more balanced matches in PvP

sophlogimosophlogimo Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
PvP is said to be in a bad state. In my opinion, this is mainly due to unbalanced games in the queues, which makes the PvP experience for the average new "try it out" player highly random. Solve that problem one way or another, and PvP will be more frequented.

So, let us collect ideas how to achieve this. How can we get more balanced games in the queues? What changes to the game would lead to this?

Edit: Ideas found until now:
  • Have seperate Queues for premade teams and random pick up groups.
  • Score each player for various stats like damage dealt, damage healed, movement impaired, buffs stripped, etc. as an average over a certain amount of past matches, and queue players up vs one another who are roughly of the same level.
  • Assign point values to various levels of gear, and have people queue up vs people of similar gear level.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • lascaillelascaille Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    following this link
    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=351
    will show you the best idea
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    many do not like to go in the arena knowing they will be on a team of randoms possibly faced against a premade who has the best gear and plays together often using mics to speak.

    Im not hating on premades ive made them myself, but they need to seperate it somehow,,,nobody likes going in the arena against a premade with randoms and losing 15-0 which is why many people stay out of the arena because they know its and automatic TRIBBLE whoopin. Needs to be a queue for premades and one for just randoms.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Ever considered why its an TRIBBLE whoopin when you enter arenas?
    The pve game is so mindless in terms of AI that it misleads people into believing they are good. This mental state of mind is taken to the queues for the first time and then smashed to bits. To preserve whatever is left after that, they never enter queues again.
    1 simple thing would improve the state of play for all newcomers overnight. Make distribute shields a standard feature which is always on and does not have to be activaed. This in itself would reduce the insta pop face role pattern.

    Balance is another issue altogeter. As the devs have confirmed themselves, balancing on 1v1 is not possible. I fully agree with this.
    Question has to be what are you balancing against? What is the benchmark? If this isnt defined, the question is pointless in itself.
    Why bother trying to balance to an unknown criteria? You will never balance anything.
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    agreed with the reroute capacity, it should be a captain skill with 1 minute cooldown that automatically reroutes shield for 10 seconds, tactical team should only give more damage, just like engineering team that gives only hull, and science team that only gives shield,

    i really loved that idea
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  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    So, let us collect ideas how to achieve this. How can we get more balanced games in the queues? What changes to the game would lead to this?

    A BPV system comes to mind, but doesn't exist in STO.

    So we're left with private matches where the rules are setup in advance.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I think first the match making system has to be improved so it makes teams play against teams, then add randoms to it if one team is lacking members.

    Also I would probably remove FvK and kvK and Fvf and make it just PvP. The reasoning behind this is that there are premades on K side, there are premades on F side, but neither of them has the balls to get into private queue and fight each other.

    If there would be just single queue, and teams would be matches to teams automatically, the queues would be improved for majority of casual pvpers.

    Might as well do just two queues, pvp and elite pvp. Elite pvp would accept only teams.
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • shockwave85shockwave85 Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I think the biggest thing is just some sort of matchmaking based on relative skill. You win, number goes up. You lose, number goes down. Maybe have a leader board so people have incentive to try and drive that up as high as possible. Some people will sandbag and deliberately keep their ranking low so they can pull the "I'm not left handed" and own some noobs, but not much you can do about that. Hopefully they will be in minority.
    ssog-maco-sig.jpg
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I think the biggest thing is just some sort of matchmaking based on relative skill. You win, number goes up. You lose, number goes down. Maybe have a leader board so people have incentive to try and drive that up as high as possible. Some people will sandbag and deliberately keep their ranking low so they can pull the "I'm not left handed" and own some noobs, but not much you can do about that. Hopefully they will be in minority.

    Interesting idea, but are there ever really enough people in the queues to make it work? Can't help but think we'd end up waiting hours for enough people in a given skill bracket to join in.
  • addsin15addsin15 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I just decided not to play Cap and Hold matches anymore.

    1 - the matches are too long. 30-60 minutes is common for a single match

    2 - Fed players are morons. I'm a fed and every time I play we lose. Last night we lost a game which was 1200 - 143 in our favor. My partners were fools. 0-6 in cap and hold games since returning last night.

    3 - Spawn camping - This needs to be done away with in both Cap and Hold AND Arena matches. Spawning inside a warp cloud surrounded by aceton sats is so unbelievably TRIBBLE that it makes me want to tear my hair out.
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    heh, I felt that way the other day in an arena match when a Fed cruiser kept me tractored in his chain tractor beam/ tractor mines/ gravatic anchor (IIRC) while 3 of his JHAS buddies tore me a new one.

    I think I'm over it now.
    :)
    Give it a few days
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
  • edited February 2013
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  • silverashes1silverashes1 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    create a seperate que with no lockbox c-store or lobi ships or gear and give everyone a pvp only ship where they have acess to only generic gear so no one has a huge p2w advantage
    like in the current system also all teams must be random no premades
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I posted this in another thread:
    One could say the game's already overdue for some sort of PvP Rating System. Not a Ranking System - but a Rating System.

    You take the fresh 50 in his RA ship with a hodgepodge of gear.
    You take the other 50 in his Fleet ship, both T5, mix of Mk XII and Elite Fleet gear, Universal Consoles, etc, etc, etc.

    Those guys really shouldn't be fighting each other. Sure, life sucks and that stuff happens - but it's a game. It's entertainment. It's not life. People play games to get away from that stuff.

    With the talk about things sitting at T5 ships but the gear getting better as time goes along... in a few years that fresh 50 (maybe a fresh 60) in his RA ship could be fighting folks in their massively retrofitted Fleet Ships with Mk TRIBBLE gear. They're both sporting T5 ships though... /cough

    If gear, rep levels, etc, etc, etc had a point level - then the cumulative value of those points could give a Rating...as far as queues go. In Ker'rat and other such areas, yeah... hopefully the fresh 50's a KDF looking to complete his Die25, eh?

    The gear gap is only going to grow and grow as time goes on...and personally, I think such a Rating system is already overdue. With such a system in place, one could easily envision multiple levels of PvP Rep Ranking based on the divides from that PvP Rating.

    It's just kind of funny - in thinking about my #1 toon and my #6 toon. The #1 guy is sporting that mix of VR Mk XI/XII gear, has various set bonuses, and is T5 in both New Rom/Omega. The #6 guy is sporting that mix of...Green Mk X through Blue Mk XI gear, no sets, and isn't even T1 in either New Rom/Omega. Both are in T5 ships though, eh? That gear discrepancy is only going to get worse as time goes on...

    And I honestly do think it's overdue in the game as is...
    And I honestly think it's only going to look more overdue as time goes on...
  • edited February 2013
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  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    For better match making, based on some form of tracking stats, we need nech tech. This tech has long been promised but not made it into game.

    We currently have a superfluous career in space. Before we can meaningfully address balance concerns, we need to make sure that the trinity is either working or abandoned all together.

    The ball is on cryptic's side. Everything else is eye candy, or making the problem even worse, because the accumulated affect of "fixes" makes the game less stable and harder to balance.
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Ever considered why its an TRIBBLE whoopin when you enter arenas?
    The pve game is so mindless in terms of AI that it misleads people into believing they are good. This mental state of mind is taken to the queues for the first time and then smashed to bits. To preserve whatever is left after that, they never enter queues again.
    1 simple thing would improve the state of play for all newcomers overnight. Make distribute shields a standard feature which is always on and does not have to be activaed. This in itself would reduce the insta pop face role pattern.

    Balance is another issue altogeter. As the devs have confirmed themselves, balancing on 1v1 is not possible. I fully agree with this.
    Question has to be what are you balancing against? What is the benchmark? If this isnt defined, the question is pointless in itself.
    Why bother trying to balance to an unknown criteria? You will never balance anything.


    Oh i do agree that first time in arena is learning exp because of the mindset pve puts one in.

    But even many in my fleet love to pvp infleet but never like to hit the arena because a pug vs premade will lose and lose badly 9/10 times. Only once was i in a pug vs premade and we actually racked up like 10 kills, but usually its 0-2 kills, likewise everytime ive gone in with my premade against pugs we destroy them easily, its literally like all 5 of us are just standing still shooting ducks. And that is what causes so few to hit the arnena is fear of being a pug and going against a premade that you have no shot to win.
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I think first the match making system has to be improved so it makes teams play against teams, then add randoms to it if one team is lacking members.

    Also I would probably remove FvK and kvK and Fvf and make it just PvP. The reasoning behind this is that there are premades on K side, there are premades on F side, but neither of them has the balls to get into private queue and fight each other.

    If there would be just single queue, and teams would be matches to teams automatically, the queues would be improved for majority of casual pvpers.

    Might as well do just two queues, pvp and elite pvp. Elite pvp would accept only teams.


    This ^^^^^^^^
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I think first the match making system has to be improved so it makes teams play against teams, then add randoms to it if one team is lacking members.

    Also I would probably remove FvK and kvK and Fvf and make it just PvP. The reasoning behind this is that there are premades on K side, there are premades on F side, but neither of them has the balls to get into private queue and fight each other.

    If there would be just single queue, and teams would be matches to teams automatically, the queues would be improved for majority of casual pvpers.

    Might as well do just two queues, pvp and elite pvp. Elite pvp would accept only teams.

    Agree with your idea, but the statement about having no balls to face each other privately is a bit misleading. We ask virtually everyday now for a premade match and maybe get 1 if we are lucky. We dont care if they are klink or fed. If we dont get a response and we know there is a premade in queues, we will go hunting.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naz4 wrote: »
    Agree with your idea, but the statement about having no balls to face each other privately is a bit misleading. We ask virtually everyday now for a premade match and maybe get 1 if we are lucky. We dont care if they are klink or fed. If we dont get a response and we know there is a premade in queues, we will go hunting.

    I know i know, it was a little too sarcastic. Guilty as charged. But even you must see, I wasn't that far from the truth, especially about some fleets :)
    "Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
  • zarathos1978zarathos1978 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I think there is no need for the separate queues. There is a need for better PvP and with this - more casuall PvPlayers to make the queues full and the chance of getting premade on the other end of arena lesser. Also - with more PvPlayers there will be more people willing to do private matches and less of premades in the queues.

    There is no simple way to do this. Separate queues wont solve current problems as there will be no one to play them and "elite" players will still end up where the fight is - in standard queue. There is already the ability to play in private match - sort of elite queues - and it is, as we can read - not used cause of lack of players.

    Also rating system that includes results from private matches would be good idea as it would actually encourage the private matches. Some sort of reward system for those will be good too. Sure - there will be place to abuse both, but it can and already is done with current system and AFKers.
  • maximus614maximus614 Member Posts: 162 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I think there is no need for the separate queues. There is a need for better PvP and with this - more casuall PvPlayers to make the queues full and the chance of getting premade on the other end of arena lesser. Also - with more PvPlayers there will be more people willing to do private matches and less of premades in the queues.

    There is no simple way to do this. Separate queues wont solve current problems as there will be no one to play them and "elite" players will still end up where the fight is - in standard queue. There is already the ability to play in private match - sort of elite queues - and it is, as we can read - not used cause of lack of players.

    Also rating system that includes results from private matches would be good idea as it would actually encourage the private matches. Some sort of reward system for those will be good too. Sure - there will be place to abuse both, but it can and already is done with current system and AFKers.


    Seperating them would work,,,would make more want to play, and even though elite players will still get in the reg queue they cant make a premade in it,,pug only, and can only go to elite when making a premade.
  • theeishtmotheeishtmo Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I have an idea. It uses a PvP Reputation system. Please, hold your arguments, I know them all already, just hear me out.

    Every PvP match (not Kerrat or that open ground one) awards PvP Marks based on Damage Done, Healing Done, Kills/Assists and, for Assault and Capture and Hold, completion of objectives. The more a player does, the more marks they get.

    The marks go into the standard rep system like normal. However, instead of just claiming a tier level, the player may also claim an Ability Tier level. All players start with Ability Tier 0.

    Ability Tiers represent how good the player is at PvP, or at least THINKS how good they are. Ability Tier 3 would be better than Ability Tier 2, for example. Players in one Ability Tier will NEVER play a PUG match against players in another Tier. So Tier 0 players will never have to face Tier 5 ones, giving these generally inexperienced players a chance to learn.

    Once they claim PvP Tier 1, they're bumped up to Ability Tier 1 automatically. After that, however, claiming a PvP Tier will NOT claim an Ability Tier. The Ability Tier must be claimed separately. Not claiming an Ability Tier wouldn't restrict building up normal Tiers, but would restrict certain items available in that Ability Tier, and reduce the number of PvP marks received per match.

    When an Ability Tier is claimed, the player has until the halfway point of that standard tier to decide if they're up to snuff, and if not, they can build a project to DROP them back down a Tier. For example, if a player is Tier 2, and claims Ability Tier 2, but finds they can't cut it there, they can go back to Ability Tier 1. A player can't be more than 1 tier below their overall PvP Tier level. Again, they will be restricted on the items in the Ability Tier and get the reduced PvP marks.

    If that same player is at Tier 2 and gets enough to claim Tier 3, they MUST claim Ability Tier 2 before they can move on.

    In a sense, it's self tiering. The player determines how good they actual are in match PvP and slows almost to a stop when they can't compete any more. They can still get SOME of the PvP items, but the really good stuff will be beyond their reach unless they get better at PvP as a whole.

    I'm not sure how to handle challenges between players, but I would suspect the rewards would be scaled to the encounter (Ability Tier 4 players wouldn't get many marks vs Ability Tier 0 players, if any). Or perhaps no marks should be awarded in such matches, I'm not sure there.

    The nature of awarding marks would prevent people from leeching PvP marks from PUG matches. The players HAVE to fight to get anything, even in losing, thus inadvertently learning.

    As for what items to give out, I'm think Very Rare Mk12 consoles, weapons, and equipment, stuff that generally can't be easily found. The PvP system would allow them to be built, with the rarest items at the very top of the PvP Ability Tier 5 tree.

    I know the negative reaction any more reputation stuff generates, but the main feature is self tiering, however it's done, that should be the focus of any PvP matching system. This uses ideas that are already in game and thus built and ready to go. At the very least, it is a starting point.
    I know there is a method but all I see is madness.
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