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Siphon Drones and KDF Power Drain: Worth Another Look

gradstudent1gradstudent1 Member Posts: 633 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
I am glad that Naz has these on his PvP Problems thread. I am starting this new thread because I think that the developers need to know that siphons remain a problem. Here is a brief exchange recorded in Naz's thread between Borticus (the one writing the "Status") and a player:

12. Item: Siphon Drone
Issue: Leaves target completely drained of all energy and totally defenceless
Status: Are these complaints based on recent play experience? The functionality of Siphon Drones' drain was drastically altered a few months ago
Yes it is - Based on very recent Klingon queue experience

This exchange suggests to me that the developers think that the recent adjustment to siphon drones was successful and made drones no longer an issue. I would say that it was helpful but not quite successful. For this reason, I am opening up a new thread, to see if there are others who can provide experiential and perhaps numerical/technical data to show either (1) that siphon drones are working at acceptable levels or (2) that they are still a major problem in pvp environments. Whatever the case may be, now that we are a few months out from the recent adjustment to siphon drones, I imagine the devs would appreciate some kind of longer-term evaluation of their current impact on pvp.

Thanks everyone .
Post edited by gradstudent1 on
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Comments

  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited February 2013
    I have seen only once siphon drones in FvK in the last 3 months of PVP.
    By the way when they nerfed siphon drones they nerfed tachyon drones (items you buy from c-store) . If cryptic would be kind enough to undo the nerfing probably I would take my vo'quv to PVP but until then it will stay in dock as it stayed for more than 6 months.

    On other hand after federation got leadership which gives federation ships a plus in defense.
    (leadership is in fact a borg heal without cd -totaly unfair to be available to one faction only)
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
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  • mancommancom Member Posts: 784 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    It would be very helpful if Cryptic told us about the specifics of the drain mechanics.

    Often we cannot tell if something is bugged and not working as intended or if the current problematic state is the consequence of correctly implemented but wrong intentions.


    What are the siphon pods supposed to be draining? x energy per second? A total of x energy, independent of the duration they stay on the target? x energy per second with a maximum of y total? Is this per pod or a total? How are they supposed to stack?

    Do we still have the absurd situation that speccing into EPS makes power drains worse (they drain with the EPS transfer rate, so the drain achieves maximum fatser if you have EPS specced / consoles)?
    1042856
  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Only yesterday when we were in Kerrat a friend of mine was running his drain voquv we carried out a test

    2 hangars of advance siphon drones

    Energy siphon 2 tykens rift 3

    6 polaron turrets crf 1 and 2

    Aceton assimilator

    Plasmonic leach

    All against a completely stationary odeyssey science with a eng officer

    Took 2minutes 20 seconds to take down to 17 power all round wouldn't seem to go any further

    How on earth is that a problem who has 2 minutes 20 to wait for a target to be drained This wasn't taking into account counters buffs debuffs on the odeyssey as i say it wasn't firing back nor moving and not using buffs debuffs

    Neither was there anyone else involved
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
  • dova25dova25 Member Posts: 475
    edited February 2013
    About federation defense :I met a such ship (science odyssey).
    3 kdf escorts couldn't take it down and we tried for more than 5 minutes.
    (one fed was afk and the other was easy to kill so actually it was 3 kdf hunting almost all the time one fed odyssey)
    "There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
    I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
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  • gradstudent1gradstudent1 Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    It would be very helpful if Cryptic told us about the specifics of the drain mechanics.

    Often we cannot tell if something is bugged and not working as intended or if the current problematic state is the consequence of correctly implemented but wrong intentions.


    What are the siphon pods supposed to be draining? x energy per second? A total of x energy, independent of the duration they stay on the target? x energy per second with a maximum of y total? Is this per pod or a total? How are they supposed to stack?

    Do we still have the absurd situation that speccing into EPS makes power drains worse (they drain with the EPS transfer rate, so the drain achieves maximum fatser if you have EPS specced / consoles)?

    Yes,Hilbert. This is precisely what we need. Please give us the new specs . It would also behelpful for us to know how precisely the drones are supposed to react with flow cap consoles and power insulators, etc.
  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    It was a drain build 200+flow cap rating

    Yeah but that's two ships not an "overpowered item"

    I'd rather get siphoned to the point of not moving than being held in one place for 40+ seconds by "gravitons" now that's an OP joke
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The mechanics would be interesting, because some of the assumptions about how it works generally mean that any nerf wouldn't matter - which is probably why there are still complaints about it, eh?

    If Insulators are an X reduction per pulse, then fast pulses wouldn't care - they'd still get the job done - one could overwhelm a target with sheer quantity...not quality...of drains.

    ASDs, Polarons, Energy Siphon, Aceton, Leech... one would expect such a thing to be able to overwhelm somebody, no?

    ASDs by themselves? No. Polarons by themselves? No. Etc, etc, etc. They should be noticeable, but they shouldn't be like pulling the power cord out like somebody that's gone full on drain build.

    What is that drain build giving up though? Is there balance? From the other end, can it too easily be countered?

    The dance that goes around and around...

    BTW, the Tach Drones were nerfed into oblivion last April/May no? Were they further nerfed when they did the more recent drain changes for ASD/et al?
  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Not really if its 5 on 5 and two ships are concentrating on one ship that's leaves a big gap especially when the end product is a ship sat there but not actually in the respawn que that's not really op is it??
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
  • radkipradkip Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I accidentally queued for space the other day and went up against a Karfi (I think? It looked like the assimilated carrier) carrier using aceton assimilators, siphon drones, polaron weapons and I think he was even using that blue whirly energy drain cloud. Then he'd subsystem attack/viral matrix my team.

    Bugger sat on me the entire match, and it was bad. Really bad. Shields, engines and aux were offline for more than half the match and I noticed my weapon power dip as low as 19 at one point. I'm not screaming NERF ZOMG but it was certainly a painful and eye opening experience.

    Then again, it was a PvE Space/PvP Ground character, so I wasn't specced/consoled to resist energy drains very well, but some guy I was talking to in ker'rat later that night ran into the same carrier and it was absolute hell on him too.
    Joined: January 2010

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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    rear turret CRF is enough to kill siphon drones, they should never catch anything with APO. or even inaccurate faw can handle them, if they catch your slow snoozer, EWP nearly instantly clenses them. same with TBR. these don't even drain you down to nothing anymore. advanced interceptors are twice as dangerous
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    They can never be right as they are atm, totaly shutting down 1 player might be fun in premade vs premade but in ques this is really a horrid concept imo.
    Noone.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2013
    So, if I'm interpreting the feedback correctly...

    1 ship using them is a bother, but can be countered.
    2 ships using them is a death sentence.

    Would this be an accurate way to reiterate the issue(s) surrounding Siphon Drones?
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • valiant797valiant797 Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I always hoped the EPS Power Transfer engineer power would cause feedback and damage the person doing the drain.
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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    rear turret CRF is enough to kill siphon drones, they should never catch anything with APO. or even inaccurate faw can handle them, if they catch your slow snoozer, EWP nearly instantly clenses them. same with TBR. these don't even drain you down to nothing anymore. advanced interceptors are twice as dangerous

    You also forget setting engine power at 125 and evasive maneuvers as possible counters. Drones only catch inexperienced players. I'd even say that they are completely useless now. But people hate science stuff so science stuff needs to be nerfed because it prevents them from doing what they want. You don't know how much nerdrage can be involved when you take control of someone else's ship. I've been insulted many times because i use two tractor beams and danubes in pvp. ;)
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  • zeuxidemus001zeuxidemus001 Member Posts: 3,357 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    You also forget setting engine power at 125 and evasive maneuvers as possible counters. Drones only catch inexperienced players. I'd even say that they are completely useless now. But people hate science stuff so science stuff needs to be nerfed because it prevents them from doing what they want. You don't know how much nerdrage can be involved when you take control of someone else's ship. I've been insulted many times because i use two tractor beams and danubes in pvp. ;)

    You are correct its just some people choose not to use them and then make statements that are less than truthful to try to ruin enjoyment of said used powers to get them nerfed.
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited February 2013
    So, if I'm interpreting the feedback correctly...

    1 ship using them is a bother, but can be countered.
    2 ships using them is a death sentence.

    Would this be an accurate way to reiterate the issue(s) surrounding Siphon Drones?

    This is accurate. Now imagine 5 Kar`fi with all out energy drain. Its not a pleasent sight.
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • gradstudent1gradstudent1 Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    So, if I'm interpreting the feedback correctly...

    1 ship using them is a bother, but can be countered.
    2 ships using them is a death sentence.

    Would this be an accurate way to reiterate the issue(s) surrounding Siphon Drones?

    Thanks so much for looking into this thread, Borticus. I am going to try over the next 2-3 days to organize a taped test that I can post here on the forum for you and others to view, just to get some hard evidence into this conversation. I think that this will allow the conversation to proceed on more than "oral" anecdotal evidence.

    So if any of you are interested in helping me with this test, please make your interest know here in the forum or else just send me an in-game note: @gradstudent1.

    In particular, it would be helpful to have some of you who have such builds and are in favor of using them to be involved as well, so that there is some semblance of objectivity to the test.
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited February 2013
    Thanks so much for looking into this thread, Borticus. I am going to try over the next 2-3 days to organize a taped test that I can post here on the forum for you and others to view, just to get some hard evidence into this conversation. I think that this will allow the conversation to proceed on more than "oral" anecdotal evidence.

    So if any of you are interested in helping me with this test, please make your interest know here in the forum or else just send me an in-game note: @gradstudent1.

    In particular, it would be helpful to have some of you who have such builds and are in favor of using them to be involved as well, so that there is some semblance of objectivity to the test.

    All you need is Hilbert and give him the appropiate formulas, and case solved.
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    So, if I'm interpreting the feedback correctly...

    1 ship using them is a bother, but can be countered.
    2 ships using them is a death sentence.

    Would this be an accurate way to reiterate the issue(s) surrounding Siphon Drones?

    Some PvPers do need to do some proper testing on it, both skilled and unskilled in flow capacitors and power insulators.

    I suspect a big part of the problem is that the KDF have a lot of special power drain abilities. Aceton assimilators, plasmonic leech and power siphons all drain power, the former two being able to be used by any ship. Plasmonic leech is especially popular among all ship types. So they've already got you running on, or close to, empty without using a single boff power.
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  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited February 2013
    orondis wrote: »
    Some PvPers do need to do some proper testing on it, both skilled and unskilled in flow capacitors and power insulators.

    I suspect a big part of the problem is that the KDF have a lot of special power drain abilities. Aceton assimilators, plasmonic leech and power siphons all drain power, the former two being able to be used by any ship. Plasmonic leech is especially popular among all ship types. So they've already got you running on, or close to, empty without using a single boff power.

    What brings more comedy into the picture is that no serious KDF player will EVER run a ship without plasmonic leech cause it benefits so much. Aceton assis pherhaps not so much, but its still such a popular choice.

    It becomes somewhat sad when 1-2 uni consoles becomes a MUST in any ship to actually work properly. It just stinks bad game design when such a thing happens in the first place.
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Flow, Insulators, (both skill/gear), ASDs, Energy Siphon, various Polarons, Tyken's, Leech, MACO, [SciCdr] + 2pc AKHG, Aceton Assimilators, Nadion Inversion, EPS (skill/gear/abilities), EPt +PWR DOFFs, DEM DOFFs, Omega Weapon Amplifier, batteries, Aux Batt AtB, EPM, RMC, and... you know, I know I'm forgetting stuff. DOFF'd TBR draining Eng power? Beam Target/Subsystem Targeting...

    ...what about the role that additional disables play in this - taking a system to 0, then the drain fighting EPS, etc, etc, etc. Phaser procs, DOFF'd Siphon, Beam Target/Subsystem Targeting, Breen Energy Dis (ability and console), various Shocks, Viral, and... you know, I know I'm forgetting stuff. Rom T5 Sci Buff...

    ...what about the role that buff stripping plays in this - SNB and SNB DOFFs?
    ...what about the role that recharge debuffs play in this - SNB and DOFF'd SS?

    You know though, I know I'm still forgetting stuff.

    Can one just look at ASDs? Whether it's just Tom using them against Jerry or whether Tom's invited Heathcliff and Garfield to the party as well? There's just so much going on from both sides...

    Many times, the "victim" hasn't done as much as they could have and are unaware of everything that the "attacker" has done or is doing...

    edit: typos are OP - nerf typos
  • zorena#3961 zorena Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    You really don't need to take an escort's power to 0 in weapons to have it do nothing tho even if its around 50 it does nothing in pvp.
    Noone.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    You also forget setting engine power at 125 and evasive maneuvers as possible counters. Drones only catch inexperienced players. I'd even say that they are completely useless now. But people hate science stuff so science stuff needs to be nerfed because it prevents them from doing what they want. You don't know how much nerdrage can be involved when you take control of someone else's ship. I've been insulted many times because i use two tractor beams and danubes in pvp. ;)

    well evasive is obvious. in a cannon using ship i always have a boff with a copy of CSV i can use if match conditions call for it. same with faw on beam ships. if i see lots of carriers, i'll also know that EWP is the bane of their existence, and coating them in it will shut down their ability to launch pets that arent on fire. if i see some poor sap droned, applying a friendly cloud of plasma is the best cure for his predicament. if i find my self droned, and at 5 power across the board, that has no impact on the damage TBR deals or the DOT EWP has. there are just some excellent counters, at least 1 of them will fit on every single ship without massively impacting your effectiveness. its not like those abilities arent very powerful and helpful already.

    interceptors though, they are like drones with APO on all the time, firing chrono torps and draining energy from 2 subsystems about half as well as drones. overall, much harder to deal with and impossible to out run. especially if they chrono proc you. and runabouts? they have twice the HP that would be reasonable. in the time it takes you to turret shot them to death, thier TB2 will have already held you its full duration. those should really be categorized as large carrier frigate pets.
  • gradstudent1gradstudent1 Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Flow, Insulators, (both skill/gear), ASDs, Energy Siphon, various Polarons, Tyken's, Leech, MACO, [SciCdr] + 2pc AKHG, Aceton Assimilators, Nadion Inversion, EPS (skill/gear/abilities), EPt +PWR DOFFs, DEM DOFFs, Omega Weapon Amplifier, batteries, Aux Batt AtB, EPM, RMC, and... you know, I know I'm forgetting stuff. DOFF'd TBR draining Eng power? Beam Target/Subsystem Targeting...

    ...what about the role that additional disables play in this - taking a system to 0, then the drain fighting EPS, etc, etc, etc. Phaser procs, DOFF'd Siphon, Beam Target/Subsystem Targeting, Breen Energy Dis (ability and console), various Shocks, Viral, and... you know, I know I'm forgetting stuff. Rom T5 Sci Buff...

    ...what about the role that buff stripping plays in this - SNB and SNB DOFFs?
    ...what about the role that recharge debuffs play in this - SNB and DOFF'd SS?

    You know though, I know I'm still forgetting stuff.

    Can one just look at ASDs? Whether it's just Tom using them again Jerry or whether Tom's invited Heathcliff and Garfield to the party as well? There's just so much going on from both sides...

    Many times, the "victim" hasn't done as much as they could have and are unaware of everything that the "attacker" has done or is doing...

    This is precisely why a controlled testing environment is needed for this issue. Anecdotes (PLayer X hit me with this and brought me to X power levels) can only take us so far. So I will ask again, anyone want to help me run this test?
  • finious2finious2 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    the PVP community control the game and what about us people who do not like pvp i myself don't like pvp, dont care fore it, to many rules you have to follow to pvp.

    here is what the pvp community would like to see from you

    1. use only 1 weapon.
    2. console slots must be empty.
    3. no shields should be installed on your ship.
    4. no targeting thwe other player let them blast you to little pieces.
    5. oh yeah and make sure you thank the QQ'ing pvp'ers for being thier punching bag.

    the above rules of engagement are a completely made up but i'm sure if the pvp community could some how figure out how to get STO to make us follow a set of rules like that, they would.

    stop crying pvp'ers play the game it is only a game for goodness sake
  • cmdrskyfallercmdrskyfaller Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I am glad that Naz has these on his PvP Problems thread. I am starting this new thread because I think that the developers need to know that siphons remain a problem. Here is a brief exchange recorded in Naz's thread between Borticus (the one writing the "Status") and a player:

    12. Item: Siphon Drone
    Issue: Leaves target completely drained of all energy and totally defenceless
    Status: Are these complaints based on recent play experience? The functionality of Siphon Drones' drain was drastically altered a few months ago
    Yes it is - Based on very recent Klingon queue experience

    This exchange suggests to me that the developers think that the recent adjustment to siphon drones was successful and made drones no longer an issue. I would say that it was helpful but not quite successful. For this reason, I am opening up a new thread, to see if there are others who can provide experiential and perhaps numerical/technical data to show either (1) that siphon drones are working at acceptable levels or (2) that they are still a major problem in pvp environments. Whatever the case may be, now that we are a few months out from the recent adjustment to siphon drones, I imagine the devs would appreciate some kind of longer-term evaluation of their current impact on pvp.

    Thanks everyone .

    I find it hard to understand what the issue with siphon drones. If you're getting drained in PVP by them its because YOU FAILED TO kit your ship to counter them.

    Aoe attacks such as photonic shockwave, fire at will, tractor repulsors will kill them.. even simply SPEED engine setting will allow you to avoid them for them drones be SLOW as heck.

    The fact is, people that whine about these drones are simply complaining that they should not be responsible for equipping their ships with a counter to a not so commonly used weapon.

    the pathetic thing of it all is these drones take nearly a MINUTE to drain a ship of power in their current nerfed form. For a whole MINUTE these whiners are apparently ignoring the drones set on them until *TRIBBLE* power out.. /waaaa.
  • naz4naz4 Member Posts: 1,373 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    finious2 wrote: »
    the PVP community control the game and what about us people who do not like pvp i myself don't like pvp, dont care fore it, to many rules you have to follow to pvp.

    here is what the pvp community would like to see from you

    1. use only 1 weapon.
    2. console slots must be empty.
    3. no shields should be installed on your ship.
    4. no targeting thwe other player let them blast you to little pieces.
    5. oh yeah and make sure you thank the QQ'ing pvp'ers for being thier punching bag.

    the above rules of engagement are a completely made up but i'm sure if the pvp community could some how figure out how to get STO to make us follow a set of rules like that, they would.

    stop crying pvp'ers play the game it is only a game for goodness sake

    Question is, if you don't like pvp, why even bother coming into this section of the forum in the first place?

    Sargon, i'd be willing to be the subject in the video. I can easily record and post it if needed.
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