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Should abilities have a to-hit roll?

virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.
Kind of introduces another question then, eh?

Should non-weapon abilities also have a To-Hit roll?

The min to-hit roll in the game is 25%. Can't go below that regardless of anything else.

So going back to Tom and Jerry:

Tom might have a 25% chance to hit Jerry with a weapon...
...but he's still got a 100% chance to hit Jerry with a non-weapon.

Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



    Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

    The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

    Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?

    This is a very good point. It's been brought up before, but it's still good. It goes back to the core design of the game, back when. Back in the day. Back when things were balanced based on captains being in the ships they were intended to be in. Things like that. For instance, the chance of getting aceton beam or sub nuc all over your escort were actually pretty slim, if you tried hard enough to avoid it. Just saying. It wasn't a 100% defense, but it was THERE, and it was intended to be that way.

    Things were 'balanced' as they were around actual in game speed and firing arcs, cooldown, and frankly, what they did as an ability. Sub nuc is sort of a long ability to give it a chance of miss, no matter how strong it seems. It is also a really strong narrow arc ability to allow on an escort making it FAR easier to apply than when it's just on a SCI ship. (and I KNOW sci ships are pretty nimble, especially with a good captain, just SAYING its' easy to prove that an escort is the more agilie of the two)

    Generally, I believe most of the 'magic abilites' have a longer CD than weapons fire, and are meant to be countered by abilities or using resistances via skills or consoles. Those abilities MAY NOT be working as intended though. So yah what do you do if drain resistance is broken? See I have no answer.

    EDIT: I gave up on the ACC thread. How's it going over there?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    thissler wrote: »
    This is a very good point. It's been brought up before, but it's still good. It goes back to the core design of the game, back when. Back in the day. Back when things were balanced based on captains being in the ships they were intended to be in. Things like that. For instance, the chance of getting aceton beam or sub nuc all over your escort were actually pretty slim, if you tried hard enough to avoid it. Just saying. It wasn't a 100% defense, but it was THERE, and it was intended to be that way.

    Things were 'balanced' as they were around actual in game speed and firing arcs, cooldown, and frankly, what they did as an ability. Sub nuc is sort of a long ability to give it a chance of miss, no matter how strong it seems. It is also a really strong narrow arc ability to allow on an escort making it FAR easier to apply than when it's just on a SCI ship. (and I KNOW sci ships are pretty nimble, especially with a good captain, just SAYING its' easy to prove that an escort is the more agilie of the two)

    Generally, I believe most of the 'magic abilites' have a longer CD than weapons fire, and are meant to be countered by abilities or using resistances via skills or consoles. Those abilities MAY NOT be working as intended though. So yah what do you do if drain resistance is broken? See I have no answer.

    It would be a pretty complex undertaking for Cryptic based on much of that. Should certain things get bonus accuracy based on their CDs? Should certain things just eat it because they can be spammed? Would this be a major buff to Escorts and a major nerf to Science? What about Defensive abilities as well as Offensive?

    But it's kind of funny, imo - a guy in a RSV could spam FAW/TS and not hit a thing on the screen but he'll have no problem landing his Tach Beam, Tractor Beam, Viral, and SNB...
    thissler wrote: »
    EDIT: I gave up on the ACC thread. How's it going over there?

    I think different folks are arguing the same stuff on the latter pages as other folks were arguing on the earlier pages...along with some basic mechanics stuff.

    You know, I've been giving some thought to the differences you and I have in regard to what's the root of the problem - and I think it's kind of chicken and egg.

    ACC/DEF/Crit can definitely be the root. That root can cause most of the problems that I've brought up in various threads...

    ...but without those issues, ACC/DEF/Crit is not the root. It's a symptom.

    Kind of like this one. If it wasn't so easy to all but negate somebody's Defense because the abilities used to do so always hit...then it wouldn't be as easy to all but negate somebody's Defense.

    Addressing ACC/DEF/Crit itself though - would be the more likely undertaking Cryptic would take though... so I'd have to say after a couple of days looking at it, I'd have to concede that it's the more logical root of issues in STO than all the other stuff that I feel is off.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Right and right. And right.

    Things get VERY wierd with acc/def/crit when def is robbed. When bonus def is zero or drops below 100 (shows as negative) things get strange. Like I said, I don't have 1000's of samples yet, but it does seem to show some VERY strong crit rates and severity. But even the things we can prove about what happens in that circumstance should be reason enough to address it.

    And sure, all the things you've ever said were imbalanced absolutely are. You feel those things are off and it's for a reason. Because you're RIGHT they are off. It's like doing the tango whilst juggling whilst being trundled along cross country in a wheelbarrow. Just soooo much is wrong, where to place the blame? It may not be the jugglinng.

    So really the fix I've been suggesting isn't so very different from adding "hit rolls" to these other abilities, although STO actually has some very nice, elegant, and playable solutions in place for that. They really do. My suggestion is just to add sources of Defense outside of speed or special gear sets that would keep ships OUT of the danger zone of Crit Death. Keep things over 100 defense. Keep things in the center zone where damage is predictable and therefore manageable. When things are manageable and Crit damage is predictable once again, we can back off of capping every ships resistances.

    So really we're looking at the same thing. Keeping ships out of the Crit Death Zone. I'd like to see that done by adding Def resources across the board to all ships, if the players choose to use it. I'd like to see Def sources outside of Speed or Gearsets. That KHG def ability is a NICE idea. I use that. Would you believe I made a video about it? Go figure. There needs to be MOAR like that, easily reachable by low level Sci and Engy slots. It can't be just Omega anymore, and it can't be based on Doffs, Rep system, or Gear Sets. It needs to be UNIVERSALLY obtainable by any ship, and that means LT or below for boff stations.

    Oh and yah it really is sorta silly that beams miss yet TB nails you. I try to think of it as an abstraction whereby the beam didn't really miss, it just did no damage. If I think of it that way I feel better. Gary Gygax did a GREAT write up on that in his first editon ADD DM Guide. P.S. That's a really great read if you can get a PDF. Solid fundamentals in that book, making it a good intro to MMO theory.

    Cheers!
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    This is one of those things I'm long wondered about, how out of earth can you lock an escort down with a tractor beam every single time but miss often with weapons? Tractor mechanics as a whole is way broken anyway but thats just one facet of ridiculous.

    Some abilities like sensor scan shouldn't miss, but sub-nuc does need to, even if it gets an acc mod or two in there. The problem is it mostly affects science, and it doesn't need any more nerfs, it needs an ability review, accuracy check and buff to compensate.
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  • ivantomdisplayivantomdisplay Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Not that long ago, I said that SNB (or other abilities casted against enemy) should have a chance to miss (rather then chance to hit). SNB is a beam after all. That didnt went well. Also, that would put game to a whole new lvl. Adding variable to something that is pure math, would be game breaking.
    [10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
    Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Adding variable to something that is pure math, would be game breaking.

    To-Hit Rolls are already RNG.
    Procs are already RNG.
    Crits are already RNG.
    Which systems are shut down by various abilities are already RNG.
    Lockboxes are RNG.
    Loot tables in general are RNG.

    RNG's all over the place...
  • inktomi19inktomi19 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    If science abilities could miss, they'd need *much* shorter cooldowns.

    With the way the game is currently balanced, if you need something like SNB to kill someone, there really isn't an alternative, so if it missed you are just screwed.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I posted this in the ACC thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.



    Should ACC/DEF & To-Hit Rolls apply to abilities as well?

    The targeting is the same no? You target the ship - fire the weapon or you trigger the ability. One makes a to-hit roll while the other always hits... doesn't quite make sense.

    Your Beam Array might miss - but that Subnucleonic Beam always hits?

    It can get dangerous to set game play balances based on RP. But, I'll play along.

    Beams weapons: Use LoS (line of sight) based on needed "target lock" can be assumed there's something equivilant to a target painter of contemporary warfare. Stealth tech in terms of shape and material could be used along w/a target's relative velocity to throw off the target painting.

    SNB: The technobable could refer to targeting a ship by something that's "sub nuclear" level that can't be easily designed around or distorted, but at the same time required too much power/computation to use as a target painting beam itself.

    Thinking about it though, it would be interesting if they used relative velocity instead of absolute velocity in determining hit ratios. In otherwords, 2 ships going @ the same high velocity seperated by a modest distance should be able to hit each other at the same rate as if they were not moving at all at the same distance.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    Thinking about it though, it would be interesting if they used relative velocity instead of absolute velocity in determining hit ratios. In otherwords, 2 ships going @ the same high velocity seperated by a modest distance should be able to hit each other at the same rate as if they were not moving at all at the same distance.

    I wonder how some folks would feel about EVEing it up a bit in STO... course, that would be kind of maddening for some if they were also to deal with weapon sizes.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    inktomi19 wrote: »
    If science abilities could miss, they'd need *much* shorter cooldowns.

    With the way the game is currently balanced, if you need something like SNB to kill someone, there really isn't an alternative, so if it missed you are just screwed.

    It definitely woudn't be something to introduce all by itself...lol, not by a long shot.

    It's complicated by the nature of the various abilities out there.

    Is FoMM actually a debuff to the target or is it a buff to everybody firing at that target? Is it a target painter or is it some networked buff to all the friendly targeting systems? Depending on how it actually works - physical mark on the target or buff to friendly systems... it might miss or it might never miss.

    Tachyon Beam on the other hand - well, it's obviously a beam. It's even a beam that can be broken by breaking the arc. So if it can miss after it hits, why couldn't it miss before it hits?

    There are a lot of abilities out there where such a change wouldn't change anything - others that it would...

    ...but none of it should be considered in the least without looking at how it would affect everything.

    That SNB is needed to kill something...well, that's not a good thing in of itself, eh? I still don't think that SNB should strip all buffs - much like I don't think a cleanse should be a complete cleanse.

    Everything's to the extremes... it's Star Yo-Yo's In Space...meh.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I wonder how some folks would feel about EVEing it up a bit in STO... course, that would be kind of maddening for some if they were also to deal with weapon sizes.

    I think there would be performance issues if things got too complicated, STO is much more twitchy and along those lines needs the capability of resolving things like hit/miss quickly.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    I think there would be performance issues if things got too complicated, STO is much more twitchy and along those lines needs the capability of resolving things like hit/miss quickly.

    There are several things, along these lines, that I've wondered about in the past and written them off because of the engine STO uses... as you said, it's twitchy - it would become a nightmare of lag.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Remember, things were sorta balanced at the start of all this. On turn rate and arcs. This was all done, and done well. It was broken slowly, as the skill tree changed, as captains came out of thier class ships with wonderous abilities intact, etc. It's been a slow process, but the trail is there to follow.

    So keep in mind much has changed. And even if you gave TB a fifty percent chance to miss, would I use it? Sure I would. It means half the time I'd STILL have a sure kill. That is WAY better odds than shooting at a high defense ship isn't it? And, please, don't think I'm saying THATS the way to play. I'm pointing out that its there, and .........if it's there it creeps into everything. Even if your not INTENTIONALLY trying to exploit it.

    Like DHC's. Why the hell are they so crazy. Please refer to acc/def/crit and the primer on H and D. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to make DHC's look crappy at this point.

    So sure, some things could bear a looking at, but I'd wait till AFTER the potential to bury someone in a defense deficit was eliminated. Once that is gone, you may have different views on Sci abilities than you do now and that would be understandable.

    Cheers!
  • borgresearcherborgresearcher Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    "no problem landing his Tach Beam, Tractor Beam, Viral, and SNB" only sci

    those are skills not weapons, why not add a miss chance to attack patterns or cannon rapid fire as well? they just dont disable, hold or strip shields, but they buff dmg, perfectly normal skills.

    you are just a nooby escort handler that doesnt like to be hold or disabled.
    useless topic
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    "no problem landing his Tach Beam, Tractor Beam, Viral, and SNB" only sci

    those are skills not weapons, why not add a miss chance to attack patterns or cannon rapid fire as well? they just dont disable, hold or strip shields, but they buff dmg, perfectly normal skills.

    you are just a nooby escort handler that doesnt like to be hold or disabled.
    useless topic

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    OMFGLMAOPIMP...

    ...okay, done.

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    Please, make it stop!

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    ...I need a smoke.
  • twg042370twg042370 Member Posts: 2,312 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I'll write it;

    THAC0! Yeah!
    <3
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    Terrible idea.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Terrible idea.

    Care to elaborate?
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    Care to elaborate?

    Changes the game from one of skill to one of fluke, simple as that.
  • hroothvitnirhroothvitnir Member Posts: 322
    edited February 2013
    Its a decent idea and defiantly a premise that makes logical seance; as in moving target will not be where you aim some times. There ares little things like why cant you tell your torp it missed and should turn around and try again. And how the hell do you miss with a C weapon at kilometers? I suppose we could say electronic warfare but wouldn't that make sci ships the Vanilla ice of STO?

    So lets just throw real life thoughts away and go from game play as its less of a headache with the way things are.

    And it basically works out to tac skills save for a attack pattern or two and maybe the hull debuf remain unchanged, and the very powerful tac skills remain unchanged. Eng basically doesn't change as they really dont cast much on enemy's but the systems there so extends and eng team now have a miss chance on others. Minor nurf to escorts as they get less heals, however cruisers now cant do anything really helpful but deploy lots of warp plasma.
    And then finally most all sci skills eat it in the face. You will never hit the escort with anything that bothers it save a really lucky RNG on subnuke. The new FOTM build would be double omega, 2 piece aegis evasive and KHG shield. All hail the nigh invulnerable escort, resistance is futile you will roll a tac in an escort or be meaningless cannon fodder.

    I'm a bit bitter about this but not at you, I'm bitter at the system as I have an irrational fear of such actually happening. Its close enough already Sci just needs to be found to have a few more unintended benefits from tac buffs before they remove any purpose for them to exist other than healing slots/boats.
    Full disclaimer I'm a Tac cap in a CC/burst Vesta. So yea the humor is not lost on me of my post.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    Changes the game from one of skill to one of fluke, simple as that.

    Er... changes?

    I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

    ...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Its a decent idea and defiantly a premise that makes logical seance; as in moving target will not be where you aim some times. There ares little things like why cant you tell your torp it missed and should turn around and try again. And how the hell do you miss with a C weapon at kilometers? I suppose we could say electronic warfare but wouldn't that make sci ships the Vanilla ice of STO?

    So lets just throw real life thoughts away and go from game play as its less of a headache with the way things are.

    And it basically works out to tac skills save for a attack pattern or two and maybe the hull debuf remain unchanged, and the very powerful tac skills remain unchanged. Eng basically doesn't change as they really dont cast much on enemy's but the systems there so extends and eng team now have a miss chance on others. Minor nurf to escorts as they get less heals, however cruisers now cant do anything really helpful but deploy lots of warp plasma.
    And then finally most all sci skills eat it in the face. You will never hit the escort with anything that bothers it save a really lucky RNG on subnuke. The new FOTM build would be double omega, 2 piece aegis evasive and KHG shield. All hail the nigh invulnerable escort, resistance is futile you will roll a tac in an escort or be meaningless cannon fodder.

    I'm a bit bitter about this but not at you, I'm bitter at the system as I have an irrational fear of such actually happening. Its close enough already Sci just needs to be found to have a few more unintended benefits from tac buffs before they remove any purpose for them to exist other than healing slots/boats.
    Full disclaimer I'm a Tac cap in a CC/burst Vesta. So yea the humor is not lost on me of my post.

    It would take a great deal of careful crafting - certain abilities would likely have built in ACC modifiers, etc, etc, etc.

    It would be a major overhaul and not something I think Cryptic should (or even could) do for STO...STO2 perhaps, lol, but yeah - not for STO.

    It's just funny, when you think about what Thissler said in the other thread - about chasing Def with Acc or just nailing that Def. It's far more cost effective to nail the Def than chase the Def.

    Three Sci abilities that can't miss render any discussion of Acc or Def moot...they simply no longer matter.

    But it's just one of many things wrong in STO...so it couldn't be addressed, imho, without addressing many things...which isn't going to happen. But that doesn't change how it stands out like a sore thumb... why so many things are about spike, how people are invincible until they pop like a ripe zit. I don't get why people find that to be fun...
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    .....But that doesn't change how it stands out like a sore thumb... why so many things are about spike, how people are invincible until they pop like a ripe zit. I don't get why people find that to be fun...

    Good post, I feel your grip on this getting tighter and tighter.

    But the over the top imagery just SHINES! Dude I want you to write my copy. Imma send you my stuff from now on, and you post it.

    Cheers and happy flying!
  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited February 2013
    Er... changes?

    I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

    ...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.

    It certainly would change. Getting lucky or unlucky on crits or procs is something that can be averaged out in a game. The better team will win regardless 99 times out of 100.

    If the first two subnukes on my team hit, but the other side's miss, a domino effect can start up that will shift the entire momentum of the match. Lining up a kill with buffs and debuffs is something that comes down to coordination. Add this pants-on-head-TRIBBLE idea to the game and it comes down to fluke. If expertly executed team work is going to fail, it should be down to the other side being even more on the ball, not down to the roll of a dice.

    It's true that there's already a certain amount of randomness in some areas of the games, but that's a silly excuse to add randomness to the rest. There's such a thing as a good middle ground. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say that randomness in some areas needs to be toned down -- phaser shield procs for instance, or calling in a dreadnought with fleet support. Randomness should have the potential to sway the result of a confrontation one way or the other, but should never be the primary catalyst by which an outcome is decided.

    People here need to spend less time campaigning their obviously dumb pet ideas, and more time forming teams so they can learn how to play and increase the level of competition in the game. I guarantee you that doing the later will minimize the former, and help us present a more unified and coherent front. Massive amounts of TRIBBLE threads like these confuse Cryptic and serve to hide real issues through sheer volume. Wise up, people.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    this would totally nerf science, and since there is no way to boost the "accuracy" of skills it would make science even weaker then it already is with all the resists/immunities/science teams out there as it is.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • ivantomdisplayivantomdisplay Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Well if your perfect team who works perfectly depends on 1,2,3 SNB-s, u are in fact, saying that all that perfect work depends only on one ability. Times 3. Whats wrong with this picture?
    Anyways, ability missing shouldn't be tied to the current defense/accuracy system. it should be flat perfect 5-10-15% doesn't matter.
    [10:49] [Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 96581 (43411) Proton(Critical) to Seto.
    Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
  • inktomi19inktomi19 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Er... changes?

    I already listed a bunch of the RNG that already exists in the game...

    ...the skill involved in this game is about maximizing your fluke to get an advantage over your opponent's fluke. That wouldn't change.
    The flukey parts of the game are on things that happen so often that they get balanced out.

    The problem is that with cooldown abilities, they are infrequent enough that a short streak of misses might last an entire match.

    If there's a 10% chance of something and you do it 100 times (and hit rolls for weapons are typically done many hundreds of times) then over all things get averaged out. If you do it twice though, then it's not that uncommon to roll that 10% twice in a row

    If you wanted abilities to roll to hit, you'd need to reduce their cooldowns enough that they'd be used hundreds of times in a typical match.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    i think this would basically be a sci nerf, they do the most casting of things on others.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I wanted to provide an example of a non-physical ability, since I've kind of outlined how physical abilities would work like weapon abilities.

    Jam Sensors

    As it stands now, it always hits. Sensors doesn't give you any resistance to it hitting - it just helps reduce the duration after it has hit. The various levels of Jam Sensors increases the duration as well as the damage the target can receive before it's automatically broken. CMS can add to the duration of Jam. Aux plays a role in the fun to be had here.

    So it's an always hit ability where JS version + CMS + Aux vs. Sensors +Aux determines the duration.

    Doesn't this strike anybody as odd?

    Let's break out Tom and Jerry for a demonstration, eh?

    Jerry's got 9 Sensors, 9 CMS, is running 125 Aux, has all sorts of gear boosting both Sensors and CMS, and has JS3.

    Tom's got 0 in Sensors/CMS, is running 25 Aux (no WCE/WCP/ship bonus), has no gear that boosts either Sensors or CMS, and has JS1.

    Let's give both TB1 (ignoring any need to hit, this is not about that right now).

    Jerry with his oodles of CMS, 125 Aux, and JS3 hits Tom first. Tom's TB drops.
    Tom with no CMS, 25 Aux, and JS1 hits Jerry first. Jerry's TB drops.

    Wait? What? Seriously? Yes, that's the way it works with the current system. Sure Tom's JS1 isn't going to last anywhere near as long on Jerry as Jerry's JS3 would on Tom... but it's automatic hit - the resistance only works as a reduction to duration not a resistance to application.

    Oh yeah, by the way - all that increased duration that Jerry's got over Tom? Let me throw a wrench into that for you.

    Again, Tom's got 0 Sensors and is sporting 25 Aux. He's just been nailed by Jerry's MEGA JAM 9000! What does Tom do? He pops ST1. What? Yep, it's that simple for Tom to clear it. He doesn't need ST3 or anything? Nope. The guy with no skill points nor any gear can be just as effective with a JS1 and ST1 as the guy with all the points, all the gear, as well as JS3 and ST3.

    So imagine instead then, that it worked like this:

    Attacker
    CMS provided a +Accuracy
    Aux provided a +Accuracy
    Rank of the Jam provided a +Accuracy

    Defender
    Sensors provided a +Defense
    Aux provided a +Defense

    Well, it looks like it should always be a hit then, no? There's more ways to get the +Acc than the +Def. CMS is a T5 skill. Sensors is a T4 skill. Sensors is cheaper. If somebody's spent those skill points in CMS...they deserve that edge.

    So going back to Tom and Jerry... Tom's nowhere near as likely to actually land his JS1 as Jerry would be to land his JS3. Isn't that more fair to Jerry than the current system is? How is that a nerf to Sci? It's rewarding the guy that made the investment in Sci...so maybe it's a nerf to the guy that was just looking for a gimmick. That guy's not Sci though...

    And then there's the other side of it:

    Defender
    Sensors provided a +Accuracy
    Aux provided a +Accuracy
    Rank of ST provided a +Accuracy

    Attacker
    CMS provided a +Defense
    Aux provided a +Defense
    Rank of the Jam provided a +Defense

    Much like the way weapon attacks work, even if the +Acc was lower than the +Def... there would still be a chance to clear the Jam before it naturally expired. It would remove the ability for Tom to laugh at Jerry as Tom hits his ST1...but at the same time, it wouldn't leave Jerry able to bend Tom over the kitchen table completely...

    So I have to wonder...how is a system that actually benefits Sci - something that is a nerf to them? If anything, it's a buff - those that invest will get nice rewards from doing so. Yes, the folks that make no investment other than picking up the lowest rank of something to capitalize on it... well, they'll see a more suitable return on their investment.

    Say a person only has room for the JS1 or the ST1 - are they going to be heavily penalized? Those aren't the only sources involved in the formula are they? If they've made investments elsewhere - then they'll have a better return on that investment than somebody that made no investment at all, eh?
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Oooookay I think you're doing way more work than you need to! If you kick back and look at a few things in the game at launch, and it needs to be at launch, you'll likely come to the conclusion that STO combat was heavily dependant on slows.

    Not out and out holds, but slows. Being able to move an escort into Acc/Def parity was how they worked thier evil magic. And some of these items you're mentioning are very good counters, and good design. Jam sensors for instance. Scramble, not so much a good design, as the skill cap is about zero. Jam sensors, you DESERVE to jam somone if your fast enough.

    And really the BAD stuff only really gets BAD when bonus defense is negative. Did you know that percentage multipliers of defense, if used when held, give you......MOAR NEGATIVE DEFENSE. Fun fact. I don't care if its just for a second. It's there. Just saying.

    100% hit rate is bad as it is though. All the Crit Hit that you can get from consoles, slap some Dam/Crit D weps on and really just go to town.

    So maybe if Sci resistances worked. A drain build kills you in sooooo many ways. But mostly cause it drains your most important stat, defense. There's just to much going on to solve it by making them roll for hits.

    So maybe if we add a few panic defense buttons that all cruisers and scis can reach? Omega by a different name. Doesn't need to be huge, just enough to keep ships out of the negative bonus zone. Bad stuff happens there.

    Here's sort of an example. Take warp plasma. It slows you. And isn't this frustrating, but it is, Cruisers will get hurt the worse in any case, Escorts the least. Well how awful and unbalanced is that right from the start? But ok, its unbalanced. Toss a Doff in there that turns a slow into a hold. Now's its Crit Death time. Wow how can that be good? Cant be balanced. Think Doffs are coming out?

    Yaaaaaah right. Get some defence that anyone can use. Give folks the ability to get OUT of the negative zone in a way that all ships could reach. We know where the bad place is, we know the expected ranges of Acc and Def, lets keep them in the sane zone.

    But not sure if want to add Acc, or more Acc based abilities into the game.

    Another fun fact. Adding more Acc just simply can't be beat. There's just no way in the game to out do it as a stat. Its the only stat that as you add it, it makes the NEXT points you add EVEN BETTER at any given point on the Acc/Def Curve. As a stat it is SOOOOO good that the devs hid Crit D inside of DHC's because you'd have to be a little fuzzy in the brain to choose that as a stat over Acc. Acc, the stat so good it makes all others pale.

    Cheers happy flying and by God man, get out there and get us some DEFENSE!

    Oh and not saying your tuning of sci has no merit, I'd just suggest finding a way to get the devs to make resistances work. Just Acc based hit chances, not so much. Peace!
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