Most of them also keep an eye towards PvP team composition and balance, and are also usually narrowly-focused on the PvP aspect.
Most of them don't go out of their way to try and bend their PvP to fit PvE encounter design that operates on vastly different considerations from PvP while also trying to balance for PvP, instead opting to build their PvE around the concepts and considerations dictated by the PvP.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Maybe it's just me but I get the sense that some of the biggest F2P games are PvP focused? Isn't Cryptic missing a trick here?
Hush man, or you might startle the Elephant.
Seriously though they are designed so that even if you are attempting to PVE, you end up in PVP. How's that for focus? You literally can't do anything except try to find a safe social zone and chit chat if you wish to avoid PVP. And even then it can come and find you.
Anywho's why is this so. And you or anyone else could look this up and read some of the fascinating studies done on MMO's. (Did you know that the most popular MMO's in Eastern/Occidental cultures mirror those cultures! Fun Fact!)
Competition breeds competition. I know isn't that crazy? Who knew? The fiercer the competition the fiercer the competition! Again, who knew? Games that have a STRONG PVE base and I don't mean players, I mean the game, can foster a STRONG PVE comepetion. Think "World First" competitions in WoW. That costs a HUGE amount of developer resources to have inside a game. And it isn't easy. You need a good story as well. And for some reason, most MMO's think an Engineer is a storyteller. They never seem to hire any pro's. Or even someone that can use spell check. But anyhoo's, PVE is expensive and difficult to do correctly.
PVP on the otherhand is INSANELY cheap to implement, and get the same results.
Who would have thought that nerds like us would line up to beat the tar out of each other without an intensive and thorough background story and character developement?
So based on this Cryptic already IS getting tremendous ROI from PVP players. Could they get more? Sure.
PS: When investment is zero, any return is fantastic isn't it?
I think most people play pve because pvp is still not balanced enough. In pvp queue casual players meet regularly often with premade team that kick they TRIBBLE and thats why they are avoiding it ! btw pvp is almost all sci ships and tac "jem bugs and temp ships".
! btw pvp is almost all sci ships and tac "jem bugs and temp ships".
huh?
don tknow about what game you are talking but in game I see people using steamrunners ,mvam,aquarius ...and occasionally a bug as escorts.
For sci ships the vesta is the most often seen.This is because you will always see more fleet./cstore ships than rare ships like bug or lockbox ships....its math.
I would guess that through sheer numbers the answer is most likely PvErs.
I think PvP might house some of the largest whales (people who spend a lot), but PvE most likely has the lionshare of whales in general.
On top of this, many PvPers are generally saavy enough to get items like lockbox ships & fleet ship modules from the exchange, and not so many of them care about cosmetic stuff or ships that don't look to have any performance advantages.
PvErs, especially in an IP like Star Trek with real Trek die hards, will most likely buy anything as long as it satisfies a part of what they want out of a trek game.
If the ratio was better balanced with regards to PvErs vs. PvPers this might be different, but also keep in mind that most PvPers have to at least do some PvE to get certain items - which also serves to inflate that segment even further.
I would guess that through sheer numbers the answer is most likely PvErs.
I think PvP might house some of the largest whales (people who spend a lot), but PvE most likely has the lionshare of whales in general.
On top of this, many PvPers are generally saavy enough to get items like lockbox ships & fleet ship modules from the exchange, and not so many of them care about cosmetic stuff or ships that don't look to have any performance advantages.
PvErs, especially in an IP like Star Trek with real Trek die hards, will most likely buy anything as long as it satisfies a part of what they want out of a trek game.
If the ratio was better balanced with regards to PvErs vs. PvPers this might be different, but also keep in mind that most PvPers have to at least do some PvE to get certain items - which also serves to inflate that segment even further.
No doubt, but if PvP'ers spend the most per capita, wouldn't it be worth a modicum of investment to get more of those Whales? Simple things like a pvp reputation store, a few more maps/mods and better queue system would go a long way. Combine a few PvE related insentives like more dilithium or fleet marks and you'll have pve'ers taking part too.
I think part of the tunnel vision in this forum is the belief that PvP needs to be balanced to be sucessful, and then that gets lost within the debates about what balance is, power creep and what is and isn't broken. Most of it is irrelevent, as long as FOTM's don't become FOYM's and things are regulary updated, the games healthy. More important is content, and looking at the potencial ROI wouldn't PvP related content generate a healthy amount of return right now?
No doubt, but if PvP'ers spend the most per capita, wouldn't it be worth a modicum of investment to get more of those Whales?
That's not really a question any player can answer without seeing the data-mining the developers might have.
Keep in mind, that things most of this community hates are exactly the things Cryptic is mostly profiting from by selling to PvPers (lockbox ships, powerful consoles, DOFFs that have almost 0 PvE value, rep powers which effectively have a time/cost).
It's a tough question for Cryptic, what do you sell to PvPers that they will both want (performance increases) but not be angered by (too much power in those performance increases)?
I would guess that serious PvP players have bought every ship that has a useful console, and every ship that seemed useful in PvP, and plenty of lockbox keys.
Conversely, a PvE player might buy a ship because it looked cool and never care/notice that it was 'bad'. *cough* Galaxy *cough*.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
That's not really a question any player can answer without seeing the data-mining the developers might have.
Keep in mind, that things most of this community hates are exactly the things Cryptic is mostly profiting from by selling to PvPers (lockbox ships, powerful consoles, DOFFs that have almost 0 PvE value, rep powers which effectively have a time/cost).
It's a tough question for Cryptic, what do you sell to PvPers that they will both want (performance increases) but not be angered by (too much power in those performance increases)?
I've been in subscription based MMO's that have stuck rigidly to zero power creep ideals. They became stale and died. F2P isn't immune to this either.
Either way, you can add more stuff that costs dilithium and as long as it isn't obscenely priced and the barrier to entry is low enough it's not a problem. Right now though, there needs to be a way to queue premades and pugs separately, have klinks and feds on the same team in new maps/game modes and just generally new maps. That, combined with a new PvP repulation store would be a nice direction to go.
Maybe it's just me but I get the sense that some of the biggest F2P games are PvP focused? Isn't Cryptic missing a trick here?
Pvpers do in fact individually spend more for the simple fact that they try to get the newest fancy stuff to compete with. And lets not include the respec tokens where everytime cryptic screws something up or changes something we need to respec.
Its sad, Subbers/LTS'ers should get unlimited respec like almost any other decent MMO.
huh?
don tknow about what game you are talking but in game I see people using steamrunners ,mvam,aquarius ...and occasionally a bug as escorts.
For sci ships the vesta is the most often seen.This is because you will always see more fleet./cstore ships than rare ships like bug or lockbox ships....its math.
I must say that you have a poor sense of observation :rolleyes:
It's a tough question for Cryptic, what do you sell to PvPers that they will both want (performance increases) but not be angered by (too much power in those performance increases)?
You can sell 'different'. Like when the Excelsior Retrofit was introduced: it wasn't overall 'better' than the existing Assault and Star Cruisers, but it offered a different console setup.
The Galaxy-R's separation and The Galaxy-X with it's phaser lancer, dual cannons and cloak could also be 'different', though they suffer from abysmal turn-rate when both ships would seem to favor more mobile builds. Having 3 engineering ensigns sucks too, but BOff powers really need to be redesigned; the only tree which is really healthy at the ensign level is science.
I thought it was universally acknowledged that pound for pound, your generic PVPer spends more in general then your generic Kirk.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
PvEers on average spend more on costumes and other misc stuff.
PvPers spend more on respecs I bet.
If we're so lucrative why are we the last to get any benefits to our gametype? Who cares who spends more, I just want improvements and fixes to the game.
Yeah and no rollbacks of fixes to old issues, like the damn B'rel cloak issue.
You can sell 'different'. Like when the Excelsior Retrofit was introduced: it wasn't overall 'better' than the existing Assault and Star Cruisers, but it offered a different console setup.
You can, but I think the model we have is pretty clear.
Lockbox ships (sale of a consumable key, with constant new reasons to purchase this consumable - ship is a single character unlock).
Lobi ships (sale of a consumable key for lobi, ship is single character unlock)
DOFFs (sometimes part of promo packs, sometimes part of lockboxes) which are consumed on use (active duty) - another consumable.
Fleet Ship Modules (consumed on use, single character unlocks)
We still get "different" ships in the C-store, but the best stats are reserved for either premium tier ship bundles (3 packs, 5000 zen) or generally for Lockbox/Lobi ships.
If we're so lucrative why are we the last to get any benefits to our gametype?
1) By population, the amount generate by PvE players is still likely much higher.
2) Because almost no one at all is a purely PvPer (from a data mining perspective) - almost every PvPer has done some form of PvE to attain gear, fleet marks, rep powers, etc.
Therefore everyone is first and foremost some kind of PvEr.
PVP on the otherhand is INSANELY cheap to implement, and get the same results.
I'm very skeptical of this and my skepticism boils down partly to economies of scale.
Scenario A: You have 300 devs, having 40%-60% of your budget on PvP is cost effective and more cost effective per dev than further PvE development.
Scenario B: If you have 25 devs or 50, you're up against a wall because you need a minimum number of artists/producers/technicians. This forces you into a part of the cost curve where PvE is a more cost effective use of labor.
If you under-staff PvE, you get the same results, only slower. If you under-staff PvP, you get an unsustainable product. A real PvP focus might require things like biweekly buff/nerf patches, for example. Which might involve a workflow 50 people can't do.
And if say you need a minimum of 15 people doing non-systems, non-content tasks, you have less devs for PvE or PvP. And, like I say, understaffed PvE probably has less obstacles (ie. people may quit and come back when content eventually gets released) than understaffed PvP (people don't come back when imbalances persist).
Pvp is a rich mans game therefore it has to e them who spend the most
Be it through grinding or spending rl money you can't pvp without spending it in large wods
Don't somebody come in and say "it's down to skill not money"
I'm all for practice makes perfect but when you've got yourself a 150k mirror escort you roll into a match and someone on the other end has the latest in lockbox mastery and trickery no matter how good you are your doomed!
So IMO its pvp folks who have to spend the most
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
I would guess that serious PvP players have bought every ship that has a useful console, and every ship that seemed useful in PvP, and plenty of lockbox keys.
Conversely, a PvE player might buy a ship because it looked cool and never care/notice that it was 'bad'. *cough* Galaxy *cough*.
The Galaxy looks cool? I know a lot of people like it, but I have disliked it from the moment I first saw it on TV. I prefer the Ambassador by a long shot. The only time I thought the Galaxy was okay was when the saucer was gone. But that is just one opinion, and not a very important one.
Comments
Most of them don't go out of their way to try and bend their PvP to fit PvE encounter design that operates on vastly different considerations from PvP while also trying to balance for PvP, instead opting to build their PvE around the concepts and considerations dictated by the PvP.
Hush man, or you might startle the Elephant.
Seriously though they are designed so that even if you are attempting to PVE, you end up in PVP. How's that for focus? You literally can't do anything except try to find a safe social zone and chit chat if you wish to avoid PVP. And even then it can come and find you.
Anywho's why is this so. And you or anyone else could look this up and read some of the fascinating studies done on MMO's. (Did you know that the most popular MMO's in Eastern/Occidental cultures mirror those cultures! Fun Fact!)
Competition breeds competition. I know isn't that crazy? Who knew? The fiercer the competition the fiercer the competition! Again, who knew? Games that have a STRONG PVE base and I don't mean players, I mean the game, can foster a STRONG PVE comepetion. Think "World First" competitions in WoW. That costs a HUGE amount of developer resources to have inside a game. And it isn't easy. You need a good story as well. And for some reason, most MMO's think an Engineer is a storyteller. They never seem to hire any pro's. Or even someone that can use spell check. But anyhoo's, PVE is expensive and difficult to do correctly.
PVP on the otherhand is INSANELY cheap to implement, and get the same results.
Who would have thought that nerds like us would line up to beat the tar out of each other without an intensive and thorough background story and character developement?
So based on this Cryptic already IS getting tremendous ROI from PVP players. Could they get more? Sure.
PS: When investment is zero, any return is fantastic isn't it?
huh?
don tknow about what game you are talking but in game I see people using steamrunners ,mvam,aquarius ...and occasionally a bug as escorts.
For sci ships the vesta is the most often seen.This is because you will always see more fleet./cstore ships than rare ships like bug or lockbox ships....its math.
I would guess that through sheer numbers the answer is most likely PvErs.
I think PvP might house some of the largest whales (people who spend a lot), but PvE most likely has the lionshare of whales in general.
On top of this, many PvPers are generally saavy enough to get items like lockbox ships & fleet ship modules from the exchange, and not so many of them care about cosmetic stuff or ships that don't look to have any performance advantages.
PvErs, especially in an IP like Star Trek with real Trek die hards, will most likely buy anything as long as it satisfies a part of what they want out of a trek game.
If the ratio was better balanced with regards to PvErs vs. PvPers this might be different, but also keep in mind that most PvPers have to at least do some PvE to get certain items - which also serves to inflate that segment even further.
I think part of the tunnel vision in this forum is the belief that PvP needs to be balanced to be sucessful, and then that gets lost within the debates about what balance is, power creep and what is and isn't broken. Most of it is irrelevent, as long as FOTM's don't become FOYM's and things are regulary updated, the games healthy. More important is content, and looking at the potencial ROI wouldn't PvP related content generate a healthy amount of return right now?
That's not really a question any player can answer without seeing the data-mining the developers might have.
Keep in mind, that things most of this community hates are exactly the things Cryptic is mostly profiting from by selling to PvPers (lockbox ships, powerful consoles, DOFFs that have almost 0 PvE value, rep powers which effectively have a time/cost).
It's a tough question for Cryptic, what do you sell to PvPers that they will both want (performance increases) but not be angered by (too much power in those performance increases)?
Conversely, a PvE player might buy a ship because it looked cool and never care/notice that it was 'bad'. *cough* Galaxy *cough*.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
I've been in subscription based MMO's that have stuck rigidly to zero power creep ideals. They became stale and died. F2P isn't immune to this either.
Either way, you can add more stuff that costs dilithium and as long as it isn't obscenely priced and the barrier to entry is low enough it's not a problem. Right now though, there needs to be a way to queue premades and pugs separately, have klinks and feds on the same team in new maps/game modes and just generally new maps. That, combined with a new PvP repulation store would be a nice direction to go.
Pvpers do in fact individually spend more for the simple fact that they try to get the newest fancy stuff to compete with. And lets not include the respec tokens where everytime cryptic screws something up or changes something we need to respec.
Its sad, Subbers/LTS'ers should get unlimited respec like almost any other decent MMO.
I must say that you have a poor sense of observation :rolleyes:
The Galaxy-R's separation and The Galaxy-X with it's phaser lancer, dual cannons and cloak could also be 'different', though they suffer from abysmal turn-rate when both ships would seem to favor more mobile builds. Having 3 engineering ensigns sucks too, but BOff powers really need to be redesigned; the only tree which is really healthy at the ensign level is science.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
PvPers spend more on respecs I bet.
If we're so lucrative why are we the last to get any benefits to our gametype? Who cares who spends more, I just want improvements and fixes to the game.
Yeah and no rollbacks of fixes to old issues, like the damn B'rel cloak issue.
You can, but I think the model we have is pretty clear.
Lockbox ships (sale of a consumable key, with constant new reasons to purchase this consumable - ship is a single character unlock).
Lobi ships (sale of a consumable key for lobi, ship is single character unlock)
DOFFs (sometimes part of promo packs, sometimes part of lockboxes) which are consumed on use (active duty) - another consumable.
Fleet Ship Modules (consumed on use, single character unlocks)
We still get "different" ships in the C-store, but the best stats are reserved for either premium tier ship bundles (3 packs, 5000 zen) or generally for Lockbox/Lobi ships.
I think that's mostly accurate, I think more PvErs buy new ships than most realize.
1) By population, the amount generate by PvE players is still likely much higher.
2) Because almost no one at all is a purely PvPer (from a data mining perspective) - almost every PvPer has done some form of PvE to attain gear, fleet marks, rep powers, etc.
Therefore everyone is first and foremost some kind of PvEr.
I'm very skeptical of this and my skepticism boils down partly to economies of scale.
Scenario A: You have 300 devs, having 40%-60% of your budget on PvP is cost effective and more cost effective per dev than further PvE development.
Scenario B: If you have 25 devs or 50, you're up against a wall because you need a minimum number of artists/producers/technicians. This forces you into a part of the cost curve where PvE is a more cost effective use of labor.
If you under-staff PvE, you get the same results, only slower. If you under-staff PvP, you get an unsustainable product. A real PvP focus might require things like biweekly buff/nerf patches, for example. Which might involve a workflow 50 people can't do.
And if say you need a minimum of 15 people doing non-systems, non-content tasks, you have less devs for PvE or PvP. And, like I say, understaffed PvE probably has less obstacles (ie. people may quit and come back when content eventually gets released) than understaffed PvP (people don't come back when imbalances persist).
Be it through grinding or spending rl money you can't pvp without spending it in large wods
Don't somebody come in and say "it's down to skill not money"
I'm all for practice makes perfect but when you've got yourself a 150k mirror escort you roll into a match and someone on the other end has the latest in lockbox mastery and trickery no matter how good you are your doomed!
So IMO its pvp folks who have to spend the most
Gonna have to steal that one :P
The Galaxy looks cool? I know a lot of people like it, but I have disliked it from the moment I first saw it on TV. I prefer the Ambassador by a long shot. The only time I thought the Galaxy was okay was when the saucer was gone. But that is just one opinion, and not a very important one.