The faster your ship the higher the Defence Rating, something Escorts and raiders enjoy quite much. The defense rating supposedly makes enemy fire miss your ship even though it looks like they are hitting your ship. Here is what I think makes this buff OP for escorts; when in trouble players fly around irraticaly trying to max out speed so the defense rating is highest so they receive little to no damage from beams or cannon fire, yet they at still able lay down accurate fire on their target. That doesn't make any sense. In reality the faster you fly the less accurate you hit your target, so why in the game escorts can get both? Escorts want to be like tanks and deal heavy damage but they don't share any abilities with cruisers yet they are able to self heal just as efffective. I say to balance things out ir your defence rating is real high then your accuracy should drop to lower level untile you slow down. That should deminish the tacticts a lot of escort players that use to fly around the enemy player at high speed and dealing heavy damage while receiving none. Its's not like the ships with slower speed gets weapons boosted for being slow, nor does the accuracy is boosted while being slow. It should but it is not the case at the moment. Maybe someone should bring it up in the next Q&A with Stah.
Defense is not buffed by speed.
Defense is penalized by a lack of speed.
If your speed is below 24 impulse, you suffer a penalty to your Bonus Defense.
If your speed is at 24 or above, there's no additional Bonus Defense.
Your Bonus Defense will be the same at 30, 40, 50, whatever...as it was at 24.
Escorts do get a +10% Defense bonus though (while moving - doesn't appear to apply while standing still).
You can also get +15% from 9 in Maneuvers as well as +10% from Elusive.
There's also gear, etc, etc, etc.
It's not difficult for folks to get to 24 impulse at all. Unlike the Escorts though, for the most part, other folks don't have to deal with the 45 arc of DHCs and the need to slow to line up/stay on the target. In slowing, they're possibly going to get hit by the penalty.
That being said, it is somewhat odd that there is not a penalty to accuracy for going over 24 impulse. Course, it's something that allows my Eng in his Escort with beams to fly around with +90% Bonus Defense (no penalty for being below 24, Elusive (+10%), 9 Maneuvers (+15%), Escort (+10%), Aegis Engine (+5%), Aegis 2pc (+5%)) never having to slow...so uh...heh, it would require an adjustment on my part if they did introduce such a penalty.
Don't forget on the other side, you can get +10% Acc from Accurate, +15% Acc from 9 in Targeting, as well as any Acc you get from weapons or other gear. There's also the various means by which you can snare/slow/root a target to drop their speed below 24 so they incur that defense penalty. Sure, Escorts are likely to have dual APO (possibly DOFF'd) and some will sport PH for the gap between them...but there's still SNB, BTE, STE, and all sorts of other stuff that you can do.
Here is what I think makes this buff OP for escorts; when in trouble players fly around irraticaly trying to max out speed so the defense rating is highest so they receive little to no damage from beams or cannon fire, yet they at still able lay down accurate fire on their target. That doesn't make any sense. In reality the faster you fly the less accurate you hit your target, so why in the game escorts can get both?
I say to balance things out ir your defence rating is real high then your accuracy should drop to lower level untile you slow down. That should deminish the tacticts a lot of escort players that use to fly around the enemy player at high speed and dealing heavy damage while receiving none.
You know, I'm a little surprised I have never even seen this one mentioned (Not saying it hasn't been before)..
It is kind of a simple thing in a way.. the faster you fly the less Accurate you become..
Although I guess that's if we think in terms of Manual Targeting, which most ships don't have. It's typically Point and click. How ever there are times in trek where the automatic Targeting has to be turned off and it has to be switched to Manual. Hmm.. (As I'm even writing this I hear Worf's voice in my head saying that very thing "Targeting Systems Damaged. Switching to Manual")
Although the space portions of the game aren't done in a FPS variation either.. If something is in your arc, and you have enough Accuracy to Equal or Beat the targets defense, you hit. Hmm...
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
The faster your ship the higher the Defence Rating, something Escorts and raiders enjoy quite much. The defense rating supposedly makes enemy fire miss your ship even though it looks like they are hitting your ship. Here is what I think makes this buff OP for escorts; when in trouble players fly around irraticaly trying to max out speed so the defense rating is highest so they receive little to no damage from beams or cannon fire, yet they at still able lay down accurate fire on their target. That doesn't make any sense. In reality the faster you fly the less accurate you hit your target, so why in the game escorts can get both? Escorts want to be like tanks and deal heavy damage but they don't share any abilities with cruisers yet they are able to self heal just as efffective. I say to balance things out ir your defence rating is real high then your accuracy should drop to lower level untile you slow down. That should deminish the tacticts a lot of escort players that use to fly around the enemy player at high speed and dealing heavy damage while receiving none. Its's not like the ships with slower speed gets weapons boosted for being slow, nor does the accuracy is boosted while being slow. It should but it is not the case at the moment. Maybe someone should bring it up in the next Q&A with Stah.
You do understand that in order to provide the heavy dmg you are talking about an escort has to run DHC with a 45 degree arc right ? They are not flying "Circles" around you and taking no dmg... while dishing it out.
I am going to guess you don't fly escorts very often... I would suggest you fly one for a week so you better understand the tactics so you can better counter it.
Yes people will evasive while in a fight for 2 reasons... 1) yes evasive itself gives a defense boost... and 2) it allows you to more quickly get back into position to continue firing the 45 degree weapons.
I'm sorry but this one comes down to learn to play... I am going to bet you Don't run a target engines right ? ... How about a tractor beam, do you have one ? ... if you have a tractor beam do you use it properly or do you click it the second its off cool down. ... Do you have Eject Warp Plasma ? ... Do you run Viral Matrix ?
Let me give you a few tips that will have you slaughtering all but the best escort pilots... or at least forcing them to run away.
1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run... it has a fairly good chance to knock the system offline which will 100% stop an escort, very few escorts will have an engi team handy... or a teammate to toss them one. (if they do have a healer pay attention and time it properly) Even if you don't get an offline... taking 20-40 power off there engine system will slow them down nicely.
2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.
3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.
4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.
5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.
Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
There are plenty of ways to slow us escort players down. Speed tanking is our speciality second to damage!
Jeez.. so many escort nerf threads lately.
If you know oyu are going to come up against an escort, alter your build. Adapt, overcome, improvise!
I'm the guy that uses unconventional builds, and don't fall to the normal. I also don't believe in "No-BS" TRIBBLE, it's in the game, it's ready to be used. Think Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.
Speed tanking is ideal for escorts, but lately the problem is that escorts can tank with heals and damage reduction on top of the usual speed tanking. Reducing defense rating seems like the least invasive way to balance ship types at the moment.
Speed tanking is ideal for escorts, but lately the problem is that escorts can tank with heals and damage reduction on top of the usual speed tanking. Reducing defense rating seems like the least invasive way to balance ship types at the moment.
They have a +10% Defense Bonus over other ship types.
The +Defense Bonus from APO is lasting the full 15s instead of just the listed 5s.
There are plenty of ways to slow us escort players down. Speed tanking is our speciality second to damage!
Jeez.. so many escort nerf threads lately.
If you know oyu are going to come up against an escort, alter your build. Adapt, overcome, improvise!
Agreed, when playing against those with the right builds and know how, i dont care how fast your little scooter/scort is you will get mass slowdown from multiple different tactics, it can be quite annoying at times
Not that I disagree on ApOs defensive being set to a max of 5 seconds, is not the duration of ApO effects affected by skill levels?
It's a case the tooltip states 5s for certain aspects and 15s for others...everything lasts the full 15s though. Either the tooltip should just say 15s for everything or things where it says 5s, it should be 5s. That sort of thing...
It's a case the tooltip states 5s for certain aspects and 15s for others...everything lasts the full 15s though. Either the tooltip should just say 15s for everything or things where it says 5s, it should be 5s. That sort of thing...
Or skilling in Attack Patterns increases the durations of ApOs effects? much like skilling in Batteries increases the base 10 seconds of duration to a max of 20 when one uses a battery.
Or skilling in Attack Patterns increases the durations of ApOs effects? much like skilling in Batteries increases the base 10 seconds of duration to a max of 20 when one uses a battery.
Even on a toon with 0 SAP... the 5s on the tooltip is actually 15s of buff. It's just not working as listed.
1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run...
If it were a great skill, more people would run it. In fact, it has a 20% chance to disable the engines for 8 sec. However, you also need to hit with the attack. And thats the major problem here.
2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.
Tractor beams are quite nice, however, also quite easy to counter. AtP-Omega can be mounted 2 times on any average escort. More over, if you want to be sure, take polarize hull.
3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.
I have ran VMIII + VMI in a BoP to lock down targets and found it to random to use. However, quite nice in team situation of course.
4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.
Eject Warp plasma is like /yawn. Some days ago I was critically hit by a warp plasma in Kerrat. I was unimpressed, but - neverthless - used HE1 to clear it.
5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.
Chronton mines are another /yawn. Even debuffed, the turn rate of an escort is high enough to outmanouver most cruisers, escpacially the Federtion ones (can fed cruiser acutually turn? I don't know ...)
Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
The problem is that crowd control is available on very low ranks in game - namely tractor beam 1. However, crowd control is a very hard to balance thing. Never give any player crowd control and damage in one, that's the holy grail. In STO, anyone, also damage dealers, can have crowd control. However, it can be countered very easy or don't work very reliable.
Unfortunately, also crowd control of higher ranks can be countered quite easy. It should be in general more effective when used by a sci captain and espacially if used at higher rank.
If it were a great skill, more people would run it. In fact, it has a 20% chance to disable the engines for 8 sec. However, you also need to hit with the attack. And thats the major problem here.
If you miss with a Target Sub System loaded it doesn't use it and it will apply on the next shot... its pretty much impossible to miss with a target sub. Target subs are great skills and most people don't run it because it doesn't fit there play style of mashing the button when the cool down timer runs out. If people would learn to hold there skills and not try to key bind every buff they had to the space bar they would find things work just fine.
Tractor beams are quite nice, however, also quite easy to counter. AtP-Omega can be mounted 2 times on any average escort. More over, if you want to be sure, take polarize hull.
Yes an escort can have 100% tractor resist... at the cost of either there main sci hull heal or shield heal. Frankly if someone is dumb enough to get into a battle with a player that is highly unlikely to go down on the first run... going in with no TSS or HZ will be good times for them. Unless I guess they have a sci heavy escort... of course myself I find the AE / MVAM / Destroyer / scourge... to be far less of an offensive threat.
I have ran VMIII + VMI in a BoP to lock down targets and found it to random to use. However, quite nice in team situation of course.
I would think for the most part the bop is far to fragile to be pussyfooting around with VMs... VM is more the domain of true sci ships. Yes VM 3 + 1... or VM 3 with aux to bat... will lock down an escort with out heal support.
Eject Warp plasma is like /yawn. Some days ago I was critically hit by a warp plasma in Kerrat. I was unimpressed, but - neverthless - used HE1 to clear it.
Chronton mines are another /yawn. Even debuffed, the turn rate of an escort is high enough to outmanouver most cruisers, escpacially the Federtion ones (can fed cruiser acutually turn? I don't know ...)
And they are "yawn" skills in the hands of 99% of the people that use it. No doubt I know of a very small handful of pilots in this game that can use either in an effective way. Again though it comes down to properly using things.
If you are not capable of watching a buff bar to decide when an escort can't omega for the next 15s for sure... or if you are not capable of counting down someones hazards to drop plasma on them when they can't easily counter... then the escort player deserves to mash you up.
When you play any ship class in this game you HAVE to time your buffs... and hold your counters for when you need them...
I mean;
What happens to an escort that blows every Buff and then gets nuked ?
What happens to an escort that panics and pops there hazards there TSS there EPTS and tac team all at once ?
To many people think they should be able to play this game and just rotate there skills... in general its true you can basicly macro your heals and be close to unbeatable. Then again the people that do that are pretty predictable... and as a fight drags on you can pretty much count off there buffs for them... and at that point it gets much easier to beat them.
Escort defense is hard to counter if you don't pay attention... I am simply saying that is true of any of the ship classes if they are played right. I cruiser properly rotating heals is next to undead. Ditto for a properly played sci that can keep there shields up pretty much forever. The engine of the game is fine as it is... in good high skill 5v5s the balance becomes apparent. Sure some of the matches can go on way to long... still the best games turn into a chess match of buff counting. Its hard to see the balance in the average pug match... and I know thats is pretty much 99% of the pvp any of us get.
It is true escorts can load tractor beams and a small handful of other CC options... namely higher level target subs. Really any CC an escort loads is at the cost of survivability of dmg... or both.
You do understand that in order to provide the heavy dmg you are talking about an escort has to run DHC with a 45 degree arc right ? They are not flying "Circles" around you and taking no dmg... while dishing it out.
I am going to guess you don't fly escorts very often... I would suggest you fly one for a week so you better understand the tactics so you can better counter it.
Yes people will evasive while in a fight for 2 reasons... 1) yes evasive itself gives a defense boost... and 2) it allows you to more quickly get back into position to continue firing the 45 degree weapons.
I'm sorry but this one comes down to learn to play... I am going to bet you Don't run a target engines right ? ... How about a tractor beam, do you have one ? ... if you have a tractor beam do you use it properly or do you click it the second its off cool down. ... Do you have Eject Warp Plasma ? ... Do you run Viral Matrix ?
Let me give you a few tips that will have you slaughtering all but the best escort pilots... or at least forcing them to run away.
1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run... it has a fairly good chance to knock the system offline which will 100% stop an escort, very few escorts will have an engi team handy... or a teammate to toss them one. (if they do have a healer pay attention and time it properly) Even if you don't get an offline... taking 20-40 power off there engine system will slow them down nicely.
2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.
3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.
4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.
5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.
Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
Maybe you don't understand that you don't have to fly around with all DHC's in an escort. Nothing stops players from geting a mixture of DHC's and Cannons. Cannons have a 90 degree arcs and fire faster with rapid fire BOFF powers than its DHC counterparts. With Rapid Cannon Fire 2 and 3 have a longer sustaining rate of fire than ther RCF 1. The same goes for Rapid Cannon Volley Boff powers. I have flown escorts before because I have a Chirmira and I have a Klingon character with escorts and battlecruisers. Maybe you need to go back and look at how to build an escort. With cannons mixed with DHC's I can fly around in circles and deal alot of damage.
Do you realized that targeting subsystes don't do as well unless flying a science ship and you have to have your skill tree set up with high system decompiler for that to be effective? If you are in a cruiser or anthing else you risk sacrificing DPS or skills that help you tank.
It isn't really that escorts have so much def, or even that other ships have less. It's the relationship between acc/def/crit. It's that defense is easily and even trivially stripped from any ship, and that the BEST ways of regaining that defense lay purely within the tactical domain. Acc and def are sort of okay. As long as defense is greater than zero. Once defense is removed things start to become very troublesome. Crit doesn't even seem to behave as it has been stated to.
In short, things die FAST. Far faster than hull or shield resistances can cope with. They are maxed as it is, the only thing left to do with them is turn up the hull values for hit points and shield mods. But as it is they are already so high that most non alpha level damage is now trivial to all ships.
Defense needs to come from multiple sources. Each class needs to have the ability to gain defense. Each class can already gain resistance extremely easily. Oddly, because of the way the stacking works, escorts gain the most benefit from that per point spent, but so what. So there's no solid reason to deny defense to all the classes.
And there's no need for a lot of thought on this. Allocate resources evenly and it becomes much easier to balance the load.
It isn't really that escorts have so much def, or even that other ships have less. It's the relationship between acc/def/crit. It's that defense is easily and even trivially stripped from any ship, and that the BEST ways of regaining that defense lay purely within the tactical domain. Acc and def are sort of okay. As long as defense is greater than zero. Once defense is removed things start to become very troublesome. Crit doesn't even seem to behave as it has been stated to.
In short, things die FAST. Far faster than hull or shield resistances can cope with. They are maxed as it is, the only thing left to do with them is turn up the hull values for hit points and shield mods. But as it is they are already so high that most non alpha level damage is now trivial to all ships.
Defense needs to come from multiple sources. Each class needs to have the ability to gain defense. Each class can already gain resistance extremely easily. Oddly, because of the way the stacking works, escorts gain the most benefit from that per point spent, but so what. So there's no solid reason to deny defense to all the classes.
And there's no need for a lot of thought on this. Allocate resources evenly and it becomes much easier to balance the load.
KHG or Fed varient 3 part can add AoE 30 defense that is chanable by 4 ships. As mentioned in another thread up to 30 defense can be added by ships w/bays. I messed around w/a KDF carrier w/just 1 defensive Doff and KDF MEF and recall doff do stack. Not that everyone should, but all Fed ship classes have ships that can have this +60 defense if that's their goal.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The whole premise that defense ratings should be affected by movement and speed seems kinda... well, very off and not right imo.
Those mechanics really suit a WW2 flight sim better than a game with futuristic starships that possess on-board targeting computers and sensors.
In ST shows and movies, didn't most of the ship-to-ship combat seem to occur when ships were stationary and while discussing some plot line rather than playing tom cruise meets buck rogers? Movement and speed factors should be more about lessening exposed flanks than outright hit-to-miss.
Defense ought to be re-calculated to something befitting this time-line and IP imo.
"Dammit J'mpok! I'm a Warrior, not a Worrier!"
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities.Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
Maybe you don't understand that you don't have to fly around with all DHC's in an escort. Nothing stops players from geting a mixture of DHC's and Cannons. Cannons have a 90 degree arcs and fire faster with rapid fire BOFF powers than its DHC counterparts. With Rapid Cannon Fire 2 and 3 have a longer sustaining rate of fire than ther RCF 1. The same goes for Rapid Cannon Volley Boff powers. I have flown escorts before because I have a Chirmira and I have a Klingon character with escorts and battlecruisers. Maybe you need to go back and look at how to build an escort. With cannons mixed with DHC's I can fly around in circles and deal alot of damage.
Do you realized that targeting subsystes don't do as well unless flying a science ship and you have to have your skill tree set up with high system decompiler for that to be effective? If you are in a cruiser or anthing else you risk sacrificing DPS or skills that help you tank.
Cannons with 90 degree firing arcs ? How interesting. lol
I am sure you are refering to single cannons which have a 180 degree firing arc... and do little more dmg then a turret.
Escorts running single cannons aren't going to kill anyone... well unless they are shooting at terrible players anyway.
Sorry DHC are the only real option on an escort.
As far as target sub systems go... I can see now why your build has issues with escorts. You are obviously building to win by simply not dying... last I checked the only way to win any fight in this game was to kill the other person. Simply not dying is NOT an option. If you have not planned your build to be capable of Winning... why would you expect to. If you just want to RP it up and chain EPTS throw some RSPs and pop some coloured beams of have at it... its fun to pretend where flying the enterprise at times.
However if you want to WIN fights in this Video Game... you best have a plan of attack. Is there opportunity cost in slotting OFFENSIVE skills.... ahh ya. Why is that a shock. YES I am suggesting you don't run 2 copies of Tac Team on your cruiser... trust me you will be just fine with 1... and if you time a sub system target even a level 1 properly it can turn a battle for you. NO its not an IWIN button haha you can't move I kill you now... however IT will be as effective as you choose to make it. As far as specing Decomp goes... haha you don't need points in Decomp to make sub systems useful... and if you want to spec some points in to decomp go for it... what are you going to loose ... wait hold on I'll use my mind reading powers to scry out your tier 5 point spend.... Hmmm 9 points in Kinetic armour.
Ok I'm sorry my tone can be harsh at times and I don't mean it to be... honestly though if you build 100% defense its no shock that you can't do anything about the escort on your tail. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense or so I hear.
There are so many good ones... ya gotta love the Clause. lol
Hes a wealth of MMO gaming know how.
Some of my fav MMO design quotes
"If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." Karl von Clausewitz
That one sums up about every undead cruiser I ever ran into... there friends always die so nice.
Think you meant this one of course
"The best form of defense is attack." Karl von Clausewitz
Then theres the min maxers motto...
"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." Karl von Clausewitz
Our Devs should read a little on war as well...
"...in war, the advantages and disadvantages of a single action could only be determined by the final balance." Karl von Clausewitz
Or...
My friend Daggers fav...
"The backbone of Surprise is fusing/melding speed with secrecy." Karl von Clausewitz
And how does that address the inherent imbalance? It doesn't. But thanks for mentioning it again. I could just stack evasive doffs couldn't I? Is that a good answer? No it isn't. Im sorry you missed that one. Add it in to your stock. I could just run full impulse! There's another one for you.
Address the issue or don't. Don't confuse the issue. Not very helpful.
And how does that address the inherent imbalance? It doesn't. But thanks for mentioning it again. I could just stack evasive doffs couldn't I? Is that a good answer? No it isn't. Im sorry you missed that one. Add it in to your stock. I could just run full impulse! There's another one for you.
Address the issue or don't. Don't confuse the issue. Not very helpful.
What is the issue and foundation of the issue again? That things die too fast when disabled/debuffed? That non-escort ships don't have available fits to boost defense? That non-escort ships don't have counters to debuffs?
I still haven't read a why a disabled/debuffed target shouldn't die fast if no action is quickly taken. What's the point of a hit and run playstyle if nothing will die to the quick spike hit part? There many ways to counter these spike assaults now that we have gear/doffs/boffs/teamplay to pick from (and I'm not even counting Rep systems/Embassy Consoles).
If the argument is non-escorts can't keep a defensive rating up a high amount of time, it's a false argument. I've shown how they can have 60% defense boost in gear and doffs. This gear isn't something escorts would likely run b/c of the combat engines.
If the argument is there aren't Boff stations available to non-escort layouts to counter movement debuffs that's false as well. PH, TBR, Jam Sensors (for TB), Aux2Damp, Engine Batt, Evasives, Deut, ET are all available to non escort ships that have the Boff/Device layouts to counter Tbs/VMs and still fit their primary role w/o a hole in their build.
If the argument is that Escorts are too self reliant, that's probably true, but that is more b/c of rep system, embassy consoles (to a lesser degree), hybrid boff layouts, boosts to base shield/hp levels the past year+, the broken APO defense duration, and cooldown doffs allowing all ships (depending on the build) to preform at a much higher level than they otherwise could.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
There is not much of hit and run anymore, its more of hit and stay.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
What is the issue and foundation of the issue again? That things die too fast when disabled/debuffed? That non-escort ships don't have available fits to boost defense? That non-escort ships don't have counters to debuffs?
The lack of counters is probably the biggest problem.
If the argument is there aren't Boff stations available to non-escort layouts to counter movement debuffs that's false as well. PH, TBR, Jam Sensors (for TB), Aux2Damp, Engine Batt, Evasives, Deut, ET are all available to non escort ships that have the Boff/Device layouts to counter Tbs/VMs and still fit their primary role w/o a hole in their build.
All of those are available to escorts as well. Their use on non-escorts is limitted for the same reasons that it is limited on escorts.
The central problem is that APO is a great buff for DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs, so an escort can use a couple of copies of it without having to hinder themselves in other ways. A science ship might work a copy of PH into it's build, but so could an escort, and both are likely to be giving up exactly the same powers to do it. The difference is that the escort is going to receive a large amount of protection from APO in addition to using PH for emergencies.
Honestly if Aux2Damp and PH were buffed a bit, that would probably level the playing field some, since those are available to all ship types. Just make both of them do what they currently do, but also render a ship immune to movement debuffs for their duration.
That would make them powerful, but both of those abilities conflict with other powerful abilities, so ships would still be losing something to get them. Running Aux2Damp means you can't chain Aux2SIF or Aux2Battery, and PH shares the same slots with HE, TSS, and TB.
Escorts would still have an edge, since they only need to cover the gaps when APO is not up, where most other ship types can't even run a single copy of APO.
It's just problematic that one ship type has so much better options for preserving it's defense than the others.
In general, folks (including myself) tend to spend time looking at X, Y, or Z.
Thing is, it's not just X, Y, Z... there's all sorts of little problems here and there. They all add up. It's that cumulative effect of all the little problems...that is the Problem.
If you look at A, and A's just a little broken - maybe A is dismissed. The same with B. The same with C. The same with D. The same with E. But hey, what if it's a case of A, B, C, and D?
The lack of counters is probably the biggest problem.
All of those are available to escorts as well. Their use on non-escorts is limitted for the same reasons that it is limited on escorts.
The central problem is that APO is a great buff for DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs, so an escort can use a couple of copies of it without having to hinder themselves in other ways. A science ship might work a copy of PH into it's build, but so could an escort, and both are likely to be giving up exactly the same powers to do it. The difference is that the escort is going to receive a large amount of protection from APO in addition to using PH for emergencies.
Honestly if Aux2Damp and PH were buffed a bit, that would probably level the playing field some, since those are available to all ship types. Just make both of them do what they currently do, but also render a ship immune to movement debuffs for their duration.
That would make them powerful, but both of those abilities conflict with other powerful abilities, so ships would still be losing something to get them. Running Aux2Damp means you can't chain Aux2SIF or Aux2Battery, and PH shares the same slots with HE, TSS, and TB.
Escorts would still have an edge, since they only need to cover the gaps when APO is not up, where most other ship types can't even run a single copy of APO.
It's just problematic that one ship type has so much better options for preserving it's defense than the others.
For single Aux2Batt builds, Aux2Damp does fit in the middle of it's cycle. 10 secondsx2 = 20 which is less than the Aux2batt cooldown.
PH sharing the same slot w/HE, TSS, and TB makes it harder for an escort to use and easier for Sci oriented ships to use. Also, you left out PSW and TBR are counters for TBs, the primary movement/defense debuff.
APO issues aren't from people running dual copies there's an opportunity cost and all APO versions, ie APO1 and APO3, aren't equal. APO issues primarily come from cooldowns allowing just 1 APO to be run as 2, openning up other Boff slots or even getting away w/just 1 Tac Boff depending on the ship and still maintaining 2x APO. The other issue w/APO is the apparently broken defense bonus lasting more than 15sec.
Even w/APO's movement debuff counter, if the defense was fixed the target could still be hit w/TSSE much more easily. Human Boffs have hurt the other movement debuff via engine power (VM).
Also, if anyone really wants to the can run the 3 part KHG set. It's less likely to be run by escorts b/c of the TRIBBLE engines, but ships w/crappy turnrates (mostly fed support cruisers) would do fine in it and it has a chainable AoE +30 defense.
Pressure damage is an issue, but it's an issue across the board. It's not realated to defense, but mostly the Fleet shields, Rep system passives, and Embassy console repairs.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
In general, folks (including myself) tend to spend time looking at X, Y, or Z.
Thing is, it's not just X, Y, Z... there's all sorts of little problems here and there. They all add up. It's that cumulative effect of all the little problems...that is the Problem.
If you look at A, and A's just a little broken - maybe A is dismissed. The same with B. The same with C. The same with D. The same with E. But hey, what if it's a case of A, B, C, and D?
Welcome to STO....
I don't disagree generally. But, atm imo, the biggest issues are passive resists combined w/passive repairs.
Edit: 2nd would be the cooldown reductions to Boff powers.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I don't disagree generally. But, atm imo, the biggest issues are passive resists combined w/passive repairs.
Edit: 2nd would be the cooldown reductions to Boff powers.
But that's the thing I'm trying to say. It's not just any of the individual items I listed. It's not the individual items you listed. It's not a pissing contest between Issue A and Issue R. It's that combination of all of the things together.
If you only address one out of the countless little issues, the cumulative effect of those remaining issues is likely going to be more of a problem than the problem which was resolved.
Cryptic needs to fix a bunch of TRIBBLE all at the same time to start getting anywhere with this. And if in going through and doing that, they find that something's not working as well as it should...they can bump that up (one at a time) - see how that works - see what it affected - and then keep working through all the variables.
Otherwise, nothing's ever actually going to be fixed nor balanced.
There was a convo in OPvP yesterday, where some of us were talking about it - I was wondering what effect doing the following to one of my builds in a Chel Grett would mean...
Already has +15% Defense (9 Maneuvers), +10% Defense (Elusive), +10% Defense (Escort), +5% Defense (Aegis engines), +5% Defense (2pc Aegis w/ Deflector)...which gives him +90% Defense while moving. Even at quarter impulse on x/25 Eng Power, he's at +90% Defense. Sitting still, he's at 15% Defense (as long as he's moved, respawn/warp in doesn't count the +15% from Maneuvers so he'd be at 0% during that scenario - and - apparently the +10% for Escort only counts while moving).
What if I were to add the AMACO shields into that mix with the Subvert Targeting?
As is, somebody with ACCx3 weapons, Accurate, and 9 Targeting is looking at an 80% chance to hit me when I don't have APO running. If they don't ACCx3, Accurate, and 9 Targeting - they're looking at a 52.3% chance of hitting when I'm not running APO. Then there's EM, SFM, etc that can further boost Defense.
He's got his lil' Borg secondary bubble for it's tiny chance at Reactive Deflection. He's got the T4 Rom shield heal on being crit proc. DCE'd EPtS means full uptime on EPtS. Still runs one BFI DOFF. He's got two Conn(TT) DOFFs so TT's at global as well as that boost for the dual APOs. He runs BTW for the shennanigans. I'll switch out his Sci BOFF depending on my mood what's going on, so he'll either also have PH1 or VM1. And...he's an Engineer*.
So...in adding the AMACO shields with Subvert... what would that do for the overall defense of this escort?
Let me jump ahead for a moment, because any experienced PvPer should see that the easiest way to deal with this particular boat is with chained SNBs/VMs with tractors. Yep, he'll ignore single SNBs/VMs/tractors - chain it and pop him. Well, as long as nobody's supporting him. But yeah, without support and that taking place - pops pretty damn fast. It's a crying shame how fast he'll pop when before that he was appearing invincible.
But again, it's an Engineer. So there's no damage. If I were to link his skill build, you'd likely say it was a Tac. Where he suffers for damage is on two fronts - he doesn't have the Tac innate abilities and he's using beams. BEAMS? WTF? I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the defense if it was a case that I had to play with that narrow 45 arc and trying to sit on a target. Nope, I just fly around going wheeeeee...
...with 4x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2's, a placeholder for the Experimental Beam Array (man that grind burnt me out so fast) in the form of just a regular ol' Plasma Beam Array, the Cutting Beam, the Omega and Hyper-Plasma Torps. 8.9% base crit (after passives/consoles), +25% base bonus accuracy, +30 Weapon Training, 4x Infusers, blah, blah, blah...
...it's got more damage and more survivability than if I tried it in a Cruiser.
But it's still LOLdamage in the end, I won't argue that in the least. The boat's awesome in Ker'rat or PUG queues... vs. PUGmades or Premades? Just another dead noob laughed at in OPvP.
So you drop the Eng. You run five with 2x Tac and 3x Sci. You switch the weapons. DHCs for the Tac guys, knowing they might temporarily give up some Defense for their shots. You give the Sci guys a mix - work in some Chrons, go with Phaser/Disruptor/Polaron/Tetryon weapons. You BOFF out to cover crosshealing/cleanses.
Why would you need any other ships other than Escorts? Is it any one thing? No... it's all the things combined - the cumulative effect.
It's why I can run an Engineer in a Beamscort...which although it's still highly laughable, is a Hell of a lot better than it should be. So I still wonder about those AMACO shields...doubt I would do the grind for the MACO set first to be able to get them. I'll likely just stick to Plan A - switching out the Aegis Deflector/Shields for MACO Deflector/Shields...giving up 5% defense while moving for the better deflector and shields - including that additional reduction to energy damage vs shields (the additional for Plasma), the additional subsystem power from getting hit, and the increased insulation and recharge buff from the 2pc.
Again, imho - it's the cumulative effect of all the stuff we can do - it all adds up. When things are off here and there with many of those pieces - it all adds up...
...and we know there's more on the way.
edit: And doh, I forgot to mention the Human BOFFs with that now that Leadership's been fixed again...oh well.
Comments
Defense is penalized by a lack of speed.
If your speed is below 24 impulse, you suffer a penalty to your Bonus Defense.
If your speed is at 24 or above, there's no additional Bonus Defense.
Your Bonus Defense will be the same at 30, 40, 50, whatever...as it was at 24.
Escorts do get a +10% Defense bonus though (while moving - doesn't appear to apply while standing still).
You can also get +15% from 9 in Maneuvers as well as +10% from Elusive.
There's also gear, etc, etc, etc.
It's not difficult for folks to get to 24 impulse at all. Unlike the Escorts though, for the most part, other folks don't have to deal with the 45 arc of DHCs and the need to slow to line up/stay on the target. In slowing, they're possibly going to get hit by the penalty.
That being said, it is somewhat odd that there is not a penalty to accuracy for going over 24 impulse. Course, it's something that allows my Eng in his Escort with beams to fly around with +90% Bonus Defense (no penalty for being below 24, Elusive (+10%), 9 Maneuvers (+15%), Escort (+10%), Aegis Engine (+5%), Aegis 2pc (+5%)) never having to slow...so uh...heh, it would require an adjustment on my part if they did introduce such a penalty.
Don't forget on the other side, you can get +10% Acc from Accurate, +15% Acc from 9 in Targeting, as well as any Acc you get from weapons or other gear. There's also the various means by which you can snare/slow/root a target to drop their speed below 24 so they incur that defense penalty. Sure, Escorts are likely to have dual APO (possibly DOFF'd) and some will sport PH for the gap between them...but there's still SNB, BTE, STE, and all sorts of other stuff that you can do.
You know, I'm a little surprised I have never even seen this one mentioned (Not saying it hasn't been before)..
It is kind of a simple thing in a way.. the faster you fly the less Accurate you become..
Although I guess that's if we think in terms of Manual Targeting, which most ships don't have. It's typically Point and click. How ever there are times in trek where the automatic Targeting has to be turned off and it has to be switched to Manual. Hmm.. (As I'm even writing this I hear Worf's voice in my head saying that very thing "Targeting Systems Damaged. Switching to Manual")
Although the space portions of the game aren't done in a FPS variation either.. If something is in your arc, and you have enough Accuracy to Equal or Beat the targets defense, you hit. Hmm...
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
You do understand that in order to provide the heavy dmg you are talking about an escort has to run DHC with a 45 degree arc right ? They are not flying "Circles" around you and taking no dmg... while dishing it out.
I am going to guess you don't fly escorts very often... I would suggest you fly one for a week so you better understand the tactics so you can better counter it.
Yes people will evasive while in a fight for 2 reasons... 1) yes evasive itself gives a defense boost... and 2) it allows you to more quickly get back into position to continue firing the 45 degree weapons.
I'm sorry but this one comes down to learn to play... I am going to bet you Don't run a target engines right ? ... How about a tractor beam, do you have one ? ... if you have a tractor beam do you use it properly or do you click it the second its off cool down. ... Do you have Eject Warp Plasma ? ... Do you run Viral Matrix ?
Let me give you a few tips that will have you slaughtering all but the best escort pilots... or at least forcing them to run away.
1) Target Engines 1 or 2.... Yes this is a great skill that not many people run... it has a fairly good chance to knock the system offline which will 100% stop an escort, very few escorts will have an engi team handy... or a teammate to toss them one. (if they do have a healer pay attention and time it properly) Even if you don't get an offline... taking 20-40 power off there engine system will slow them down nicely.
2) Tractor beam... DON'T just hit it cause your cool down is up... First check the escorts buff bar... if they have omega up WAIT for the time on it to drop off. I like to engage a tractor as I see some one passing very close to me, and as there omega has 2-3s left on it... this way they will pass me. (you can reverse if you need to) and the tactor will almost always kick in with them having NOTHING pointing at you but turrets... it will frustrate and annoy the Average escort dude.
3) if your in a sci ship use some VM... nothing more annoying to an escort then a VM lock down.
4) Eject Warp Plasma. Get good at laying this at the right time... and you will again annoy most escorts... get good at dropping it with your OWN engine buffs up and you will score plenty of escort kills.... in other words drop it with your EVASIVE up, or aux to damp... or an omega if you have one on a tactical type sci/cruiser.
5) Chron mines... great option for sci ships and cruisers... again if you just dropping them on auto fire there not likely going to do to much... but if you use them right they can be a nasty debuff... I won't say this is the strongest option as omega counters it now... still can work but they are hard to time against buffs.
Anyway theres a few ideas for you and there are plenty of other ways to counter speedy escorts... I think the best way to sum up all the good options though is to say that you can't just dumb fire any of them... use your counters properly and time them and lone escorts shouldn't be a the uber wonder weapons you seem to make them out to be.
Jeez.. so many escort nerf threads lately.
If you know oyu are going to come up against an escort, alter your build. Adapt, overcome, improvise!
They have a +10% Defense Bonus over other ship types.
The +Defense Bonus from APO is lasting the full 15s instead of just the listed 5s.
Balance should start with fixing the 5s is 15s...
Thats the white elephant isn't it. Broken skill + Broken Doff = Broken System.
Agreed, when playing against those with the right builds and know how, i dont care how fast your little scooter/scort is you will get mass slowdown from multiple different tactics, it can be quite annoying at times
Not that I disagree on ApOs defensive being set to a max of 5 seconds, is not the duration of ApO effects affected by skill levels?
R.I.P
It's a case the tooltip states 5s for certain aspects and 15s for others...everything lasts the full 15s though. Either the tooltip should just say 15s for everything or things where it says 5s, it should be 5s. That sort of thing...
Or skilling in Attack Patterns increases the durations of ApOs effects? much like skilling in Batteries increases the base 10 seconds of duration to a max of 20 when one uses a battery.
R.I.P
Even on a toon with 0 SAP... the 5s on the tooltip is actually 15s of buff. It's just not working as listed.
If it were a great skill, more people would run it. In fact, it has a 20% chance to disable the engines for 8 sec. However, you also need to hit with the attack. And thats the major problem here.
Tractor beams are quite nice, however, also quite easy to counter. AtP-Omega can be mounted 2 times on any average escort. More over, if you want to be sure, take polarize hull.
I have ran VMIII + VMI in a BoP to lock down targets and found it to random to use. However, quite nice in team situation of course.
Eject Warp plasma is like /yawn. Some days ago I was critically hit by a warp plasma in Kerrat. I was unimpressed, but - neverthless - used HE1 to clear it.
Chronton mines are another /yawn. Even debuffed, the turn rate of an escort is high enough to outmanouver most cruisers, escpacially the Federtion ones (can fed cruiser acutually turn? I don't know ...)
The problem is that crowd control is available on very low ranks in game - namely tractor beam 1. However, crowd control is a very hard to balance thing. Never give any player crowd control and damage in one, that's the holy grail. In STO, anyone, also damage dealers, can have crowd control. However, it can be countered very easy or don't work very reliable.
Unfortunately, also crowd control of higher ranks can be countered quite easy. It should be in general more effective when used by a sci captain and espacially if used at higher rank.
If you miss with a Target Sub System loaded it doesn't use it and it will apply on the next shot... its pretty much impossible to miss with a target sub. Target subs are great skills and most people don't run it because it doesn't fit there play style of mashing the button when the cool down timer runs out. If people would learn to hold there skills and not try to key bind every buff they had to the space bar they would find things work just fine.
Yes an escort can have 100% tractor resist... at the cost of either there main sci hull heal or shield heal. Frankly if someone is dumb enough to get into a battle with a player that is highly unlikely to go down on the first run... going in with no TSS or HZ will be good times for them. Unless I guess they have a sci heavy escort... of course myself I find the AE / MVAM / Destroyer / scourge... to be far less of an offensive threat.
I would think for the most part the bop is far to fragile to be pussyfooting around with VMs... VM is more the domain of true sci ships. Yes VM 3 + 1... or VM 3 with aux to bat... will lock down an escort with out heal support.
And they are "yawn" skills in the hands of 99% of the people that use it. No doubt I know of a very small handful of pilots in this game that can use either in an effective way. Again though it comes down to properly using things.
If you are not capable of watching a buff bar to decide when an escort can't omega for the next 15s for sure... or if you are not capable of counting down someones hazards to drop plasma on them when they can't easily counter... then the escort player deserves to mash you up.
When you play any ship class in this game you HAVE to time your buffs... and hold your counters for when you need them...
I mean;
What happens to an escort that blows every Buff and then gets nuked ?
What happens to an escort that panics and pops there hazards there TSS there EPTS and tac team all at once ?
To many people think they should be able to play this game and just rotate there skills... in general its true you can basicly macro your heals and be close to unbeatable. Then again the people that do that are pretty predictable... and as a fight drags on you can pretty much count off there buffs for them... and at that point it gets much easier to beat them.
Escort defense is hard to counter if you don't pay attention... I am simply saying that is true of any of the ship classes if they are played right. I cruiser properly rotating heals is next to undead. Ditto for a properly played sci that can keep there shields up pretty much forever. The engine of the game is fine as it is... in good high skill 5v5s the balance becomes apparent. Sure some of the matches can go on way to long... still the best games turn into a chess match of buff counting. Its hard to see the balance in the average pug match... and I know thats is pretty much 99% of the pvp any of us get.
It is true escorts can load tractor beams and a small handful of other CC options... namely higher level target subs. Really any CC an escort loads is at the cost of survivability of dmg... or both.
Then its an obviuos glitch that should obviuosly be fixed. <looks at the Dev team>.
R.I.P
Maybe you don't understand that you don't have to fly around with all DHC's in an escort. Nothing stops players from geting a mixture of DHC's and Cannons. Cannons have a 90 degree arcs and fire faster with rapid fire BOFF powers than its DHC counterparts. With Rapid Cannon Fire 2 and 3 have a longer sustaining rate of fire than ther RCF 1. The same goes for Rapid Cannon Volley Boff powers. I have flown escorts before because I have a Chirmira and I have a Klingon character with escorts and battlecruisers. Maybe you need to go back and look at how to build an escort. With cannons mixed with DHC's I can fly around in circles and deal alot of damage.
Do you realized that targeting subsystes don't do as well unless flying a science ship and you have to have your skill tree set up with high system decompiler for that to be effective? If you are in a cruiser or anthing else you risk sacrificing DPS or skills that help you tank.
In short, things die FAST. Far faster than hull or shield resistances can cope with. They are maxed as it is, the only thing left to do with them is turn up the hull values for hit points and shield mods. But as it is they are already so high that most non alpha level damage is now trivial to all ships.
Defense needs to come from multiple sources. Each class needs to have the ability to gain defense. Each class can already gain resistance extremely easily. Oddly, because of the way the stacking works, escorts gain the most benefit from that per point spent, but so what. So there's no solid reason to deny defense to all the classes.
And there's no need for a lot of thought on this. Allocate resources evenly and it becomes much easier to balance the load.
KHG or Fed varient 3 part can add AoE 30 defense that is chanable by 4 ships. As mentioned in another thread up to 30 defense can be added by ships w/bays. I messed around w/a KDF carrier w/just 1 defensive Doff and KDF MEF and recall doff do stack. Not that everyone should, but all Fed ship classes have ships that can have this +60 defense if that's their goal.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Those mechanics really suit a WW2 flight sim better than a game with futuristic starships that possess on-board targeting computers and sensors.
In ST shows and movies, didn't most of the ship-to-ship combat seem to occur when ships were stationary and while discussing some plot line rather than playing tom cruise meets buck rogers? Movement and speed factors should be more about lessening exposed flanks than outright hit-to-miss.
Defense ought to be re-calculated to something befitting this time-line and IP imo.
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities. Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
Cannons with 90 degree firing arcs ? How interesting. lol
I am sure you are refering to single cannons which have a 180 degree firing arc... and do little more dmg then a turret.
Escorts running single cannons aren't going to kill anyone... well unless they are shooting at terrible players anyway.
Sorry DHC are the only real option on an escort.
As far as target sub systems go... I can see now why your build has issues with escorts. You are obviously building to win by simply not dying... last I checked the only way to win any fight in this game was to kill the other person. Simply not dying is NOT an option. If you have not planned your build to be capable of Winning... why would you expect to. If you just want to RP it up and chain EPTS throw some RSPs and pop some coloured beams of have at it... its fun to pretend where flying the enterprise at times.
However if you want to WIN fights in this Video Game... you best have a plan of attack. Is there opportunity cost in slotting OFFENSIVE skills.... ahh ya. Why is that a shock. YES I am suggesting you don't run 2 copies of Tac Team on your cruiser... trust me you will be just fine with 1... and if you time a sub system target even a level 1 properly it can turn a battle for you. NO its not an IWIN button haha you can't move I kill you now... however IT will be as effective as you choose to make it. As far as specing Decomp goes... haha you don't need points in Decomp to make sub systems useful... and if you want to spec some points in to decomp go for it... what are you going to loose ... wait hold on I'll use my mind reading powers to scry out your tier 5 point spend.... Hmmm 9 points in Kinetic armour.
Ok I'm sorry my tone can be harsh at times and I don't mean it to be... honestly though if you build 100% defense its no shock that you can't do anything about the escort on your tail. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense or so I hear.
There are so many good ones... ya gotta love the Clause. lol
Hes a wealth of MMO gaming know how.
Some of my fav MMO design quotes
"If you entrench yourself behind strong fortifications, you compel the enemy seek a solution elsewhere." Karl von Clausewitz
That one sums up about every undead cruiser I ever ran into... there friends always die so nice.
Think you meant this one of course
"The best form of defense is attack." Karl von Clausewitz
Then theres the min maxers motto...
"Pursue one great decisive aim with force and determination." Karl von Clausewitz
Our Devs should read a little on war as well...
"...in war, the advantages and disadvantages of a single action could only be determined by the final balance." Karl von Clausewitz
Or...
My friend Daggers fav...
"The backbone of Surprise is fusing/melding speed with secrecy." Karl von Clausewitz
Address the issue or don't. Don't confuse the issue. Not very helpful.
What is the issue and foundation of the issue again? That things die too fast when disabled/debuffed? That non-escort ships don't have available fits to boost defense? That non-escort ships don't have counters to debuffs?
I still haven't read a why a disabled/debuffed target shouldn't die fast if no action is quickly taken. What's the point of a hit and run playstyle if nothing will die to the quick spike hit part? There many ways to counter these spike assaults now that we have gear/doffs/boffs/teamplay to pick from (and I'm not even counting Rep systems/Embassy Consoles).
If the argument is non-escorts can't keep a defensive rating up a high amount of time, it's a false argument. I've shown how they can have 60% defense boost in gear and doffs. This gear isn't something escorts would likely run b/c of the combat engines.
If the argument is there aren't Boff stations available to non-escort layouts to counter movement debuffs that's false as well. PH, TBR, Jam Sensors (for TB), Aux2Damp, Engine Batt, Evasives, Deut, ET are all available to non escort ships that have the Boff/Device layouts to counter Tbs/VMs and still fit their primary role w/o a hole in their build.
If the argument is that Escorts are too self reliant, that's probably true, but that is more b/c of rep system, embassy consoles (to a lesser degree), hybrid boff layouts, boosts to base shield/hp levels the past year+, the broken APO defense duration, and cooldown doffs allowing all ships (depending on the build) to preform at a much higher level than they otherwise could.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
The central problem is that APO is a great buff for DPS in addition to providing protection from movement debuffs, so an escort can use a couple of copies of it without having to hinder themselves in other ways. A science ship might work a copy of PH into it's build, but so could an escort, and both are likely to be giving up exactly the same powers to do it. The difference is that the escort is going to receive a large amount of protection from APO in addition to using PH for emergencies.
Honestly if Aux2Damp and PH were buffed a bit, that would probably level the playing field some, since those are available to all ship types. Just make both of them do what they currently do, but also render a ship immune to movement debuffs for their duration.
That would make them powerful, but both of those abilities conflict with other powerful abilities, so ships would still be losing something to get them. Running Aux2Damp means you can't chain Aux2SIF or Aux2Battery, and PH shares the same slots with HE, TSS, and TB.
Escorts would still have an edge, since they only need to cover the gaps when APO is not up, where most other ship types can't even run a single copy of APO.
It's just problematic that one ship type has so much better options for preserving it's defense than the others.
There's a problem. Let's call it X.
Also we've got this: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=545061
Let's call that Y.
There's the issue with APO - let's call that Z.
In general, folks (including myself) tend to spend time looking at X, Y, or Z.
Thing is, it's not just X, Y, Z... there's all sorts of little problems here and there. They all add up. It's that cumulative effect of all the little problems...that is the Problem.
If you look at A, and A's just a little broken - maybe A is dismissed. The same with B. The same with C. The same with D. The same with E. But hey, what if it's a case of A, B, C, and D?
Welcome to STO....
For single Aux2Batt builds, Aux2Damp does fit in the middle of it's cycle. 10 secondsx2 = 20 which is less than the Aux2batt cooldown.
PH sharing the same slot w/HE, TSS, and TB makes it harder for an escort to use and easier for Sci oriented ships to use. Also, you left out PSW and TBR are counters for TBs, the primary movement/defense debuff.
APO issues aren't from people running dual copies there's an opportunity cost and all APO versions, ie APO1 and APO3, aren't equal. APO issues primarily come from cooldowns allowing just 1 APO to be run as 2, openning up other Boff slots or even getting away w/just 1 Tac Boff depending on the ship and still maintaining 2x APO. The other issue w/APO is the apparently broken defense bonus lasting more than 15sec.
Even w/APO's movement debuff counter, if the defense was fixed the target could still be hit w/TSSE much more easily. Human Boffs have hurt the other movement debuff via engine power (VM).
Also, if anyone really wants to the can run the 3 part KHG set. It's less likely to be run by escorts b/c of the TRIBBLE engines, but ships w/crappy turnrates (mostly fed support cruisers) would do fine in it and it has a chainable AoE +30 defense.
Pressure damage is an issue, but it's an issue across the board. It's not realated to defense, but mostly the Fleet shields, Rep system passives, and Embassy console repairs.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I don't disagree generally. But, atm imo, the biggest issues are passive resists combined w/passive repairs.
Edit: 2nd would be the cooldown reductions to Boff powers.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
But that's the thing I'm trying to say. It's not just any of the individual items I listed. It's not the individual items you listed. It's not a pissing contest between Issue A and Issue R. It's that combination of all of the things together.
If you only address one out of the countless little issues, the cumulative effect of those remaining issues is likely going to be more of a problem than the problem which was resolved.
Cryptic needs to fix a bunch of TRIBBLE all at the same time to start getting anywhere with this. And if in going through and doing that, they find that something's not working as well as it should...they can bump that up (one at a time) - see how that works - see what it affected - and then keep working through all the variables.
Otherwise, nothing's ever actually going to be fixed nor balanced.
There was a convo in OPvP yesterday, where some of us were talking about it - I was wondering what effect doing the following to one of my builds in a Chel Grett would mean...
Already has +15% Defense (9 Maneuvers), +10% Defense (Elusive), +10% Defense (Escort), +5% Defense (Aegis engines), +5% Defense (2pc Aegis w/ Deflector)...which gives him +90% Defense while moving. Even at quarter impulse on x/25 Eng Power, he's at +90% Defense. Sitting still, he's at 15% Defense (as long as he's moved, respawn/warp in doesn't count the +15% from Maneuvers so he'd be at 0% during that scenario - and - apparently the +10% for Escort only counts while moving).
What if I were to add the AMACO shields into that mix with the Subvert Targeting?
As is, somebody with ACCx3 weapons, Accurate, and 9 Targeting is looking at an 80% chance to hit me when I don't have APO running. If they don't ACCx3, Accurate, and 9 Targeting - they're looking at a 52.3% chance of hitting when I'm not running APO. Then there's EM, SFM, etc that can further boost Defense.
He's got his lil' Borg secondary bubble for it's tiny chance at Reactive Deflection. He's got the T4 Rom shield heal on being crit proc. DCE'd EPtS means full uptime on EPtS. Still runs one BFI DOFF. He's got two Conn(TT) DOFFs so TT's at global as well as that boost for the dual APOs. He runs BTW for the shennanigans. I'll switch out his Sci BOFF depending on my mood what's going on, so he'll either also have PH1 or VM1. And...he's an Engineer*.
So...in adding the AMACO shields with Subvert... what would that do for the overall defense of this escort?
Let me jump ahead for a moment, because any experienced PvPer should see that the easiest way to deal with this particular boat is with chained SNBs/VMs with tractors. Yep, he'll ignore single SNBs/VMs/tractors - chain it and pop him. Well, as long as nobody's supporting him. But yeah, without support and that taking place - pops pretty damn fast. It's a crying shame how fast he'll pop when before that he was appearing invincible.
But again, it's an Engineer. So there's no damage. If I were to link his skill build, you'd likely say it was a Tac. Where he suffers for damage is on two fronts - he doesn't have the Tac innate abilities and he's using beams. BEAMS? WTF? I wouldn't have made such a big deal out of the defense if it was a case that I had to play with that narrow 45 arc and trying to sit on a target. Nope, I just fly around going wheeeeee...
...with 4x Romulan Plasma Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2's, a placeholder for the Experimental Beam Array (man that grind burnt me out so fast) in the form of just a regular ol' Plasma Beam Array, the Cutting Beam, the Omega and Hyper-Plasma Torps. 8.9% base crit (after passives/consoles), +25% base bonus accuracy, +30 Weapon Training, 4x Infusers, blah, blah, blah...
...it's got more damage and more survivability than if I tried it in a Cruiser.
But it's still LOLdamage in the end, I won't argue that in the least. The boat's awesome in Ker'rat or PUG queues... vs. PUGmades or Premades? Just another dead noob laughed at in OPvP.
So you drop the Eng. You run five with 2x Tac and 3x Sci. You switch the weapons. DHCs for the Tac guys, knowing they might temporarily give up some Defense for their shots. You give the Sci guys a mix - work in some Chrons, go with Phaser/Disruptor/Polaron/Tetryon weapons. You BOFF out to cover crosshealing/cleanses.
Why would you need any other ships other than Escorts? Is it any one thing? No... it's all the things combined - the cumulative effect.
It's why I can run an Engineer in a Beamscort...which although it's still highly laughable, is a Hell of a lot better than it should be. So I still wonder about those AMACO shields...doubt I would do the grind for the MACO set first to be able to get them. I'll likely just stick to Plan A - switching out the Aegis Deflector/Shields for MACO Deflector/Shields...giving up 5% defense while moving for the better deflector and shields - including that additional reduction to energy damage vs shields (the additional for Plasma), the additional subsystem power from getting hit, and the increased insulation and recharge buff from the 2pc.
Again, imho - it's the cumulative effect of all the stuff we can do - it all adds up. When things are off here and there with many of those pieces - it all adds up...
...and we know there's more on the way.
edit: And doh, I forgot to mention the Human BOFFs with that now that Leadership's been fixed again...oh well.