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Need for an Engineer in high level PvP?
arctos1717
Member Posts: 37 Arc User
We are all aware of a marginal position of an engineer captain in STO at the moment, but looking at PvP, especially premade, it makes me think if there is any need at all for an engineer? Even the best of the best can't heal as much as best science captains, not to talk about doing damage.
Am I missing something maybe?
Am I missing something maybe?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by arctos1717 on
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Some times you just need to have an Engineer to be able to survive as a healer when a Sci or Tac can't do it.
Though of course it's rare to run into situations like that.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I've done that. It can work. Though I'm afraid for me personally, I don't enjoy doing healing in STO.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Eng: Miracle Worker, Rotate Shield Frequency, Nadion Inversion, EPS Power, Engineering Fleet
Sci: Subnucleonic Beam, Photonic Fleet, Scattering Field, Sensor Scan, Science Fleet
Those are the five abilities that separate a Sci Captain and an Eng Captain. The Sci doesn't have any additional healing there.
There's SNB which could reduce the amount of healing needed by stripping buffs off a target. There's Scattering which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing energy weapon damage to the hull of those around you. There's Sci Fleet which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing damage to shields while also reducing potential drain to shields and power levels. It also boosts shield healing. DOFF'd Scan could also reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing the amount of damage being done. Even Photonic could technically reduce damage by acting as chaff and eating some non-targeted incoming damage.
But there's not actually any heals.
And you're going to have other Sci's for Evil Bill Nye goodies.
The Eng, well, from a team perspective - probably start off with Eng Fleet. Which can actually increase passive healing because of the boost to hull repair (as well as active healing), provides the smallish boost to all power levels which can provide that smallish increase to shield damage reduction and regen, and it also provides additional hull damage resist. Then there's using EPS Power to boost power on yourself or a single ally - which can do more of what the WCP buff from Eng Fleet did. And then... well, nope - that's it. MW, RSF, and NI are just things that may keep you alive longer so you can do your job longer.
There's more "team healing" out of an Engineer than a Sci. The Sci is just more team friendly overall. But again, you're likely to have another Sci or two - you're not likely to have the Eng there as anything other than a Healer - which gets into that overall discussion of Engineers and their five innates vs. the five for Tac or Sci.
As web said though, depending on the team setup - it may or may not be covered anyway. Lots of folks have posted about the 3 Tac/2 Sci or 2 Tac/3 Sci teams - with crosshealing, etc, etc, etc. One could say that an Eng healer is like lockbox, eh? Sometimes you may bring them, and simply not need them - wishing you had brought something else. Sometimes you may not bring them, and find you need them - wishing you had brought them instead of something else. The various discussions over the years should give an idea of what the percentage rates for either of those scenarios is...
As zara said, it's about the ship. Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci - so that you can get the best heals from both. So you're going to hear about the Recluse and the Science Odyssey. From time to time, you'll see folks arguing those two in OPvP. Heck, there's even folks that have brought up the Ambassador and what a Fleet version might be able to do since it's got the Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci. The Fleet Nebula...has Cmdr Sci and LCdr Eng - so you've got a non-heal Cmdr Sci ability while missing out on the Cmdr Eng abilities. Course, if the team can work around that - then it opens to the door to several more ships with that kind of layout that could work as more offensive healers - giving up that Cmdr Eng heal for some Cmdr Sci EVIL...muahahahaha.
But don't mind me in the least...I don't participate in high level PvP and neither of my Engineers are healers.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Yep, left those out. The Mirror Vo'Quv is pretty interesting for that with the LCdr Tac, LCdr Eng, Lt Eng, and Cmdr Sci instead of the LCdr Tac, LCdr Eng, Cmdr Sci, Lt Sci of the regular Vo'Quv.
Shame that the Bortasqu' doesn't have the console layouts to support what you could do with the BOFF layouts.
The fact that people think that Engineers are healers is a concept that should be rethought.
Engineers fabricate and fix. Sciences research and control. Depending on an Engineer to heal you is about as reliable as Dr. McCoy laying a code worthy brick path.
Just something to think about.
So no damage from an Eng.
Just a bit more (self)- healing.
The Sci on the other side - all his abilities are useful for the whole Team!
Maby the Engenier needs a few... upgrades, to be in Line with all the Changes, that come up here across the years.
The extra (self!) healing they bring is hardly ever worth the absence of another SNB, aka sci the former next best healer, and pretty much better healer atm.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If one does show up, they're expected to heal, not that Tacs and Sci can't heal just as well but the latter two prefer to do DPS.
Engineer DPS blows due to lack of inherent Buffs/Debuffs
Tanking is irrelevant in PvP and with the rampant passive healing in the game's current state, a Tac in an escort can tank almost as well.
If you're an Engineer and like to PvP, I say do whatever you want as long as you're having fun. Just know that you're entering with a handicap.
Healing...period...needs to be rethought. This isn't Star Trek Online. It's WoW in Space - where certain ships can slot more or better Clerics, Druids, and Paladins...
CnH PUG queues with my Fed and Ker'rat with my KDF.
Sci: Subnucleonic Beam, Photonic Fleet, Scattering Field, Sensor Scan, Science Fleet
Those are the five abilities that separate a Sci Captain and an Eng Captain. The Sci doesn't have any additional healing there.
There's SNB which could reduce the amount of healing needed by stripping buffs off a target. There's Scattering which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing energy weapon damage to the hull of those around you. There's Sci Fleet which can reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing damage to shields while also reducing potential drain to shields and power levels. It also boosts shield healing. DOFF'd Scan could also reduce the amount of healing needed by reducing the amount of damage being done. Even Photonic could technically reduce damage by acting as chaff and eating some non-targeted incoming damage.
But there's not actually any heals.
And you're going to have other Sci's for Evil Bill Nye goodies.
The Eng, well, from a team perspective - probably start off with Eng Fleet. Which can actually increase passive healing because of the boost to hull repair (as well as active healing), provides the smallish boost to all power levels which can provide that smallish increase to shield damage reduction and regen, and it also provides additional hull damage resist. Then there's using EPS Power to boost power on yourself or a single ally - which can do more of what the WCP buff from Eng Fleet did. And then... well, nope - that's it. MW, RSF, and NI are just things that may keep you alive longer so you can do your job longer.
There's more "team healing" out of an Engineer than a Sci. The Sci is just more team friendly overall. But again, you're likely to have another Sci or two - you're not likely to have the Eng there as anything other than a Healer - which gets into that overall discussion of Engineers and their five innates vs. the five for Tac or Sci.
As web said though, depending on the team setup - it may or may not be covered anyway. Lots of folks have posted about the 3 Tac/2 Sci or 2 Tac/3 Sci teams - with crosshealing, etc, etc, etc. One could say that an Eng healer is like lockbox, eh? Sometimes you may bring them, and simply not need them - wishing you had brought something else. Sometimes you may not bring them, and find you need them - wishing you had brought them instead of something else. The various discussions over the years should give an idea of what the percentage rates for either of those scenarios is...
As zara said, it's about the ship. Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci - so that you can get the best heals from both. So you're going to hear about the Recluse and the Science Odyssey. From time to time, you'll see folks arguing those two in OPvP. Heck, there's even folks that have brought up the Ambassador and what a Fleet version might be able to do since it's got the Cmdr Eng and LCdr Sci. The Fleet Nebula...has Cmdr Sci and LCdr Eng - so you've got a non-heal Cmdr Sci ability while missing out on the Cmdr Eng abilities. Course, if the team can work around that - then it opens to the door to several more ships with that kind of layout that could work as more offensive healers - giving up that Cmdr Eng heal for some Cmdr Sci EVIL...muahahahaha.
But don't mind me in the least...I don't participate in high level PvP and neither of my Engineers are healers.
.............................................................................................................................
so sci dmg resistance doesn't count as useful for defence ?:cool:
I think it suffers from what many "easy" mode classes suffer from. Bad players.
Ok I know that can seem offensive... and I am sorry for that. Here is the thing though...
Engi isn't as easy mode as most people seem to think.
Frankly any fool can load an escort and do enough DPS to take care of the pve junk in this game... and 9 times out of 10 even bad escort setups will do OK in pvp. Perhaps not the best player in the map... but even bad escorts tend to put out some hurt.
Engi cruiser on the other hand... is a widely played class and it the level of skill needed to do it proper is deceptive. A bad engi cruiser... it terrible at healing and dmg... and is only saved in pve by simply having more hull and shields and inate heals to get by...
Here is what I have found flying my engi cruiser a bit again lately...
1) Engi Cruiser DPS can be fine... I have flown some pve with my engi cruiser the last few days... and looking at the logs My proper engi cruiser was out dpsing the pve player escorts. Granted its no where near my tac scorts dps number... still its with in 30%... and my tac scort dps I know is top tier... so I would have to conclude its not as bad as people make out.
2) Healing is still extremely good... yes sci sci is a fantastic heal setup... but engi cruiser imo is still king... again if its done properly.
I will say engi cruiser is the hardest to setup to be versatile. It is hard to come up with a build that both provides top engi DPS with top heals. I know many people just load max heals and mostly forget about DPS... and I will say this... on my engi cruiser I could go aux to bat DEM 3 EPTW... and out dps most average escort pilots. OR I can go max heals and out Heal pretty much any sci healer. The one nice thing about engi cruiser as a full on healer is you ARE capable of spiking dmg for short periods. I think it is possible to hybrid a little bit... the thing is its not as easy as some of us like to think when we say engi cruiser is easy mode... It is if you only plan to survive... if you plan to keep people alive and still provide proper fire support, its in fact one of the hardest roles to fill. Its not shocking to me that most people simply can't handle it.
The only thing that makes Engineers slightly better healers is because they get an extra battery every minute and a half.
I have been able to do pretty good with a Command Bortasqu using Lt Cmdr universal as sci for healing. TSS3 is still strong when powered by high aux even though it only has 2 sci consoles. Also it can offer much more support dps then the sci oddy can at the same time.
There is also the much overlooked Fleet corsair which does get Cmdr Eng and Lt Cmdr Sci, 4 sci consoles, and hangar.
In my mind Engineers fix things, make them hum - if Sci has the debuff wizardry, engineers should have the team support skills, something like enhanced team weapons focus, or an emergency power relay (powerful surge of power) that knocks out systems, sonic detonations and other field deployments. Engineers should be more feared than they current are.
I've seen a few folks flying those in Ker'rat and they've done pretty well.
It's the way Cryptic handled things for STO... it's kind of off in comparison to "Star Trek" in the way the careers/divisions are handled - at least from the Starfleet perspective.
There's Command - which is somewhat the easiest, because Command could have started out as Command, Operations, or Science. Our Captains are Command, regardless of the "STO" Career selected. STO itself though, is missing the Command Career. We're just something else that ended up Command.
Operations on the other hand:
"Members of the operations division may have specialized in a ship or base service, administration, or military operations, or served as staff officers. Operations officers included engineers, security and tactical, and some service specializations such as communications. Operations division personnel also filled administrative posts as yeomen, personnel officers, and portmasters. By the 24th century, this division had new postings established on ships, such as operations officers (or chief of operations)."
And then Science:
"The sciences division was the corps of officers within Starfleet who specialized in both scientific and medical research and control functions on starbases, aboard starships, and at Starfleet Command. Members of the sciences division may have specialized in sensors, research, theoretical and physical laboratory work, biological studies, and also as technicians, medics, and surgeons."
No doubt there were dualspecs - whether it was Com/Ops, Com/Sci, Ops/Sci, or even dualspecs within Com, Ops, or Sci. It became more prevalent in the TNG and later eras.
But ask yourself, how many SciOps were there compared to OpsSci? Where did all the Science in STO come from? It didn't come from Star Trek. Well, in a sense it did.
Look at Sci Vessels - they're basically specialized Cruisers or Escorts. For some reason, they've got Subsystem Targeting which is obviously an Ops ability - perhaps something that should have been left to TacOps BOFFs, eh?
Look at Sci BOFF abilities? Are even half of them, even a third of them, actually Sci abilities or are they Ops abilities you'd expect Engineers and Tactical to have?
Operations was gutted to create the Science Career in STO.
That's not going to change now, but it can be fun (and painful) to think about what might have been... if we had more fleshed out character creation, more fleshed out BOFFs, ships that better represented the nature of the shows/movies, etc, etc, etc. If we had Star Trek Online... rather than a game that's more akin to an arcade/console game.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Command_division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Operations_division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sciences_division
edit: It's like I used to joke about it, when I've got a somewhat obvious preference for Engineers - why I played Sci toons as well (I used to run more Sci than Eng). I'd say what Sci? Oh, these guys? They're Engineers in Blue uniforms...
RSF had a 75% shield resist until shield resists were cut in half across the board.
The old skill system forced you to spec more carefully. Now you can have it all, only they benefit Tacs and Sci Caps more.
Different Consoles made a difference and you specc'd, depending on what ship you flew. Now with Doffs and Passive Heals/Regen, you can toss a couple Neutroniums and tank like a pro, no matter what ship you're in.
Just as an example, let's say you have an eng and a sci each running tac team and extend. Both powers don't do much raw healing, but are more based on preventing damage. Sci is naturally squishier so the tac team would more often be used on itself rather than teammates, and the extend cooldown would often need to be saved to keep RSP available.
TL;DR version: Sci can get higher healing numbers from its need to self-heal, but eng can tank better by preventing damage on itself and is better able to save heal cooldowns for teammates.
Reason being is quite simply, the Engineer has at least 3 selfish abilities that only serves purpose to himself. Obviously running in a team also means you want to contribute a little bit more then just boosting your beams a bit with Nadion/EPS and keeping your own butt alive with RSF/Miracle.
If Tac's/Sci's can do without, so can an engineer. Thus useless.
IMO Engineers were always supposed to be a tank, because other then that a tac or a sci can heal just as much externally as engineers. Again you dont need to be an engineer to stay alive, thats what the team is for. And if you are solo'ing i don't think you would even be asking this question in the forums.
Unfortunately Engineers have literally nothing that would make people actually want to kill you. No awesome damage, just zombie'ing around. You might think being an engineer with tons of heals will attract the attention towards you, but really versus a good premade 1 full heal engineer cruiser can't keep your whole team alive if no-one else has any heals. and again the circle goes round and round and instead of firing at the engineer cruiser the opposing team can target another sub healer instead and still win.
I never seen a Sci do more healing then a Engi, nor the other way around. Unless you count in the self heals.
For each Subnuke you can diminish ones damage, ultimately taking away the need to heal extra. Basic rule but Sci > Engi
Or let me state it differently, I'd rather want to be a Sci, nuking off someones ability to even kill me (Nuke off APA/GDF) instead of being an Engi, use RSF and try to tank all that damage off me
Choice is easily made.
You need to have something REALLY special if playing an Engi to increase your threat generation otherwise its basically a lost cause and its a 5 versus 4.5 or even worse 5 versus 4.1 (.1 still for the beams you fire which might hurt hem a tiny bit :P)
MT-
Today
Tact 60%
Sci 30%
Eng 10%
Before F2p
Sci 50%
Tact 30%
Eng 20%
Beta
100% sci
When it was cruisers online SNB was much more dominant. Now that its escorts online Tact are number one.
Eng has always been the step child. Good for zombie healers and nitch builds.
A passive higher power lvl cap for Eng would be nice, +10 passive cap to all power level, like 135 power instead of 125.
That would bring players over to eng it open up more for sciVessal builds and sustained dps.
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
It might help if the (x) Fleet skills were folded back into different respective career powers. Eng Fleet becomes part of MW, Sci Fleet is part of Scattering Field (which while very useful honestly doesn't make much sense as a Sci power) and Tac Fleet could maybe be split between AP:A and GDF.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
this point is just moot and silly as you are comparing a games skills to a television show.
Star Trek.
Star Trek: Online.
Silly, eh?
Q: What are you in STO?
A: I'm an engineer
Q: I'm so sorry, you poor thing... i didn't know you're one of the orphans
A: I'll survive, there are still so many things I can do
Q: Like what?
A: I can open lock boxes, send DOFFS on missions, look for bargains on exchange while my fleet mates fight in PvP, I can farm dilithium all day long and so many other cool things
Q: Aha, I see now, very nice, good lad..........
1) Power... Frankly Everyone has WAY to much... EPS is sucks. Why is that ? Its simple its redundant. Who needs +33 power to every system when your power already reads 125 125 80 80....
2) Power Transfer Rate... Lets add that into the skill tree, this was a horrible move on Cryptic part Electro Plasma game destroyer... Yes why not everyone is sick to death of running and EPS Unit... again who needs EPS transfer, when everyone has the = of 2 EPS units worth of transfer for a small handful of skill points.
3) Weapon power usage... this one changes a good while ago... but really again what good is EPS transfer ? Weapon power automagikly returning after a cycle has cause a ton of weapon balance problems... and again lessened what used to be a stable Engi Offensive skill... and as a support skill throwing one on a cannon escort under the old system was just evil fun. Now its pointless... chances are an escort you throw a EPS likely won't even notice they got it.
4) Kinetic Cutting Beam... WTF? are you kidding... Free Nadion Inversion for everyone... and infact more of it for ships that can load cannons and rapid fires... have fun guys on demand face roll in a can. Nadion why would anyone need that ?
5) Doffs that replace Nadion... I know its only 8s... still Activate DEM get 8s of free nadion... don't even have to be a silly engi.
6) So many +power items I won't even try to count them...
I am sure I am forgetting some major things... I won't talk about FAW as I know most would... IMO it was completely wacked before... and if its not using ACC properly now it should be fixed... still I would rather see FAW busted then working the way it has for half of the 20 or so versions we have seen.
IF I was the dev in charge of balance this is what I would do....
I wouldn't change one item...
I wouldn't change one doff...
What I would do...
1) Raise the base power setting of every ship system to 125... making 125 the new 100... and allowing power to raise to 150. Where as weapons at 125 do the same amount of dmg they do now at 100... and 150 = 125. I hope that makes sense... I would of course not raise the max power you could set in the ship...
So you would still set say 100 25 50 25... but your systems would all take a good 20-30% hit.
This would INSTANTLY restore the usefulness of EPS transfer.
2) I would half the power transfer rate afforded by Electro Plasma Systems. Again forcing people that swap power to slot an EPS (reducing some of the games tank)... and once again making EPS transfer a super powerful buff.
3) I would return weapon drain. Nadion is basicly pointless... the only ships that should be able to feed an 8 beam broad side... or a 8 cannon bit of pew pew should be an engi... An escort wanting to run full cannons should be forced to slot 1-2 EPS units again... once again tank removed from the game... DPS or TANK not both all the time.
Anyway those are the 3 things I would change to restore Engi to its rightful place in the trinity. With all the power creep and all the brain dead additions that basicly replace the need for engi buffs... I think that would be about the only way to easily fix the class. (with out redoing multiple skills and items)
If with current power cap you run 100/50/25/25 for standard attack preset, with new one it would be 50/25/25/25. How much can you get from skills? About 75-100 more right? So you would get 100/50/25/25 MAX. Plus few dozen if you slot consoles. So that you can get 125 on one power with immense investement. But you would need to sacrifive eng console slots. No more super tanky escorts.
Or cut the available skill points. By 3. We have 366000 now. Give people 122000. No more Swiss Knife builds. Wanna something - spent points knowing, that you will sacrifice something else.
Or both?
I would also invert the return from invested skill points. So that you actually get rewarded for spending more points. It's 18/10/5 now. Make it 5/10/18. BUT ONLY if you cut the available skill points.