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maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
too many powers are cleared by too few powers.

what can be done to help this?
mancom wrote: »
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
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Post edited by maicake716 on
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Idea#1

    Make the level/rank count.

    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse.
    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 25%.

    Cleanse2 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
    Cleanse2 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse.
    Cleanse2 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.

    Cleanse3 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse + longer temporary resistance.
    Cleanse3 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
    Cleanse3 vs. Stuff3 - cleanse.

    Certain Stuff won't have a level, so treat it as Stuff2.

    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
    Cleanse2 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse.
    Cleanse3 vs. Stuff2 - cleanse + temporary resistance.
  • edited February 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I was reading the chat that brought about the OPs idea.

    I like some of virusdancer's idea in principle, but to keep it simple, why not just make it so that HE gives you a resist to ES instead of removing the debuff outright?

    I don't like the idea of tiered effectiveness of clears.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    The problem with tiered cleanses is that it turns the game into a bit of a lottery as to which powers you have on hand (this is already sort of an issue, albeit one solved with multiple BOffs) so some sort of balance has to be struck between making all powers useful and keeping it possible to actually prepare yourself for what you'll reasonably face. I quite like the idea of graded effectiveness, though.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Idea#2

    Make Teams "use" Crew. "Use" is temporary. The Crew are removed from the Able Crew for a period of time - a period longer than the recharge of the Team. When that period of time is done, return those Crew to the Able Crew. While on the Team, these Crew will have the Captain and BOFF invulnerability. They can't die while on the Team.

    Team1 uses X Able Crew.
    Team2 uses X+ Able Crew.
    Team3 uses X++ Able Crew.

    If you do not have enough Able Crew, you cannot use the Team.

    Yes, this would require something being done about Theta.

    Idea#3

    Acknowledging there are other cleanses, this is still about Teams. Raise the min Rank of the BOFF to use a Team to Lieutenant. Team1 = LT, Team2 = LCdr, Team3 = Cmdr.

    In doing this, though, provide the three class of ships with a set of innate Team abilities that work in a similar function to a Sci Vessel's Subsystem Targeting.

    Escorts:
    miniTTA - remove hostile boarding parties
    miniTTB - remove tactical debuffs
    miniTTC - buff energy/projectile weapon training
    miniTTD - distribute shield strength

    Cruisers:
    miniETA - hull heal
    miniETB - repair disabled systems
    miniETC - remove engineering debuffs
    miniETD - buff hull resist

    Science Vessels:
    miniSTA - shield regen
    miniSTB - remove science debuffs
    miniSTC - buff shield damage reduction
    miniSTD - buff stealthsight

    Used in conjunction with Idea#1, this would increase the overall opportunity cost of using certain cleanses but still provide some sort of benefit based on ship for those that can't meet that cost.

    It also addresses the (complete, imho) silliness of how teams work now.

    Somebody can go through and spend skill points in a higher tier skill and take a R3 version of an ability...to have it cleansed by somebody that didn't spend a single skill point and took a R1 version of the cleanse at Ensign.
  • naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Idea#1

    Make the level/rank count.

    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff1 - cleanse.
    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff2 - reduce effect/duration by 50%.
    Cleanse1 vs. Stuff3 - reduce effect/duration by 25%.

    This would appear to have the opposite effect - making it even harder to clear stuff.

    I suugest:

    - make buffs and debuffs shorter, reducing the need to clear.
    - team skills should not share a cooldown.
    - debuff skills should do ONE thing, not multiple. (e.g. SNB removes buffs OR increases cooldowns.)
    - set limits on all debuffs and buffs. (e.g. cap everything at some percentage, etc.)
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Is that enough for the too much cleanse side of the argument? I was wearing my I hate TT/HE hat. :)

    The TT spam cleanse of APB and the spammable HE destroying the DPS of an insane plasma build...well, those kind of tick me off. Can have a blast in PvE, but that fix doesn't cut it in the long run. With a mix of Hyper, Omega, Plasma Torps, Plasma Mines, EWP, Plasma Energy Weapons, and using the various Tac abilities for them - it's insane how many different types of Plasma DoTs you can stack and how high some of those stacks will go. All of it...poof...gone with a HE1.

    Because I've also got the hat where I hate everything that can be "spammed" from the other side of the discussion as well.

    One can look at Weapons and look at Stuff, to see where they've tried to do something similar with the mechanics. Heals/Resists-Reduced Effect.

    There's a component that's missing though. Accuracy/Defense. Wait? How could that work? Well, a lot of the Stuff is modified by a certain skill. What the Stuff is "attacking" often has skills involved as well. So compare skills and do a hit roll. For example: CMS vs. Sensors to determine a "hit"... and like Acc/Def, if there's overflow - then why not allow for a "Critical Hit" where the Stuff does "more"...?

    But still, in speaking about things and Stuff - there's SNB. C'mon, this doesn't make sense at all in so many ways, eh? It even clears buffs that it makes no sense that SNB should clear, above and beyond stripping all buffs.

    How about this instead...SNB makes an unmodified to-hit roll and removes a random number of logical buffs depending on that hit? Something like this:

    Critical Hit - Remove Rnd(X+) Logical Buffs
    Hit - Remove Rnd(X) Logical Buffs
    Miss - Nada
    Critical Miss - Increases recharge duration on SNB

    Much like I run toons on both the Fed and KDF side, much like I fly Cruisers and Escorts, much like blah, blah, blah... I can see both sides of the issue with Cleanses and Stuffs. Think both sides need work and balancing...
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naevius wrote: »
    This would appear to have the opposite effect - making it even harder to clear stuff.

    Yes, the Cleanse1 guy's going to have a rougher time of it. The Cleanse3 guy's going to have a better time of it though.

    As it stands, somebody without any skill points spent - no consoles slotted - etc, etc, etc - can use a Cleanse1 to wipe a Stuff3 where the guy using Stuff3 did spend skill points, did slot consoles, etc, etc, etc.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    naevius wrote: »
    - set limits on all debuffs and buffs. (e.g. cap everything at some percentage, etc.)

    Not to veer off topic too hard, but this is a really astute observation and something that Cryptic's never really done any serious work on. There are a lot of stats and mechanics in this game which can be indefinitely stacked because there aren't really any soft caps or safeguards in place against extreme scenarios.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    too many powers are cleared by too few powers.

    what can be done to help this?

    Its fine just as it is Mai...

    What would you prefer some sort of stun wars. No thanks.

    Sci is extremely powerful as it is... its funny you are the one always complaining about how weak sci is ... and I think we both know that is hardly the case. All you see in PvP anymore is escorts and sci ships ? why is that do you think.

    People complaining that sci is weak are simply misguided. Sci is 100% fine just as it is, including resists to things like shield strip. Anyone that has in fact tried the skills people say are resisted to heavily or counted to easily, know (if they aren't terrible players) that they are in fact very powerful... timing debuffs / buffs is important... a system where no one has the right counters simply makes a brain dead system.... SOrry I don't want no Stun wars here... Cryptic may have lucked into a system where they have created a ton of counters, however compared to other MMOs I'll take this system where stuns are super powerful if you TIME them proper... over a click it when its up and win system anyway.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Its fine just as it is

    Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

    Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

    How exactly is it just fine as it is?
  • inktomi19inktomi19 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

    Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

    How exactly is it just fine as it is?
    Using ST means giving up ET and TT for the duration of the cooldown -- the clear comes with an opportunity cost.

    The only clears that are a real problem IMO are the ones that are likely to be spammed in rotation anyway -- mostly TT. Not every ship even carries ST and ET (ET seems to be the sole domain of cruisers) and they are very likely to be used to help a teammate rather than as a self-clear. TT is kind of a special problem because it's a strong defensive buff anyway, and the other ensign tac powers aren't generally worth taking (especially on a ship using cannons) so many ships will have 2 copies of it.

    Honestly I'd rather have clears be too common rather than not common enough though. Any MMO with successful PvP has very short duration CC and common clears with relatively shot (30 sec to a minute) cooldowns. The challenge then becomes to make players use their clears early.

    I play a science ship too, and it's fun when I can occasionally keep someone locked down until they die, but if I could do it successfully any more often it would drive players out of the game. CC has more potential for driving players to quitting than any other part of the game.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Yeah and TT can be fixed by reducing the debuff clear to 5 seconds.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    inktomi19 wrote: »
    Using ST means giving up ET and TT for the duration of the cooldown -- the clear comes with an opportunity cost.

    You've got abilities at various levels of recharge - some good to go, some nearly ready to go, some in the middle, and some just used. You get hit by SNB+VM+SS+APB+BTE.

    Which would you use first or wish you had to use first? ET, ST, or TT?
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited February 2013
    I'm more concerned by the extremes in this game. Almost everything is either too good or too weak. It's off or it's on. I'd like to see a system that establishes a floor and a ceiling for any abilities effect first, then figure out how to cram abilities and their modifications within those constraints.

    Trade holds and lengthy disables for slows and interrupts (stuns) but also and no more immunity. It's no more fun being completely immobilized than it is having abilities be completely ignored.

    For Attack Pattern Omega, replace immunity with a temporary boost directly applied to the player's Inertial Dampeners stat. Sure, some of the resistance mechanics in the skill tree still need a bit of fine tuning. Inertial Dampeners don't seem to help with the hold and turn rate debuff from Tractor Beams but it's incredibly powerful against Tractor Beam Repulsors, for example. Gravity well is really nice against pets but a player can largely ignore it before they even have to consider popping an ability (of course, I don't want to go back to the time when a gravity well or two left entire teams bouncing off of each other in the middle either).

    I know it was a bit controversial when it proposed a while ago, but the idea of decoupling defense from movement speed is an interesting one. If decoupling the two is too extreme, what would happen if they simply reduced the importance of movement speed on defense? I think the bottom line was that being held and disabled is not equally easy to overcome across all classes which creates a pretty difficult situation to balance. Rather than "nerfing" abilities it might be more prudent to adjust the underlying mechanics that are responsible for such extreme conditions (worthless science skills versus immunity, passive innate spike healing and ridiculous critical strikes on defenseless targets).

    If we could do something about the extremes then it should be easier to balance everything from damage to healing to crowd control.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    stevehale wrote: »
    I'm more concerned by the extremes in this game. Almost everything is either too good or too weak. It's off or it's on.

    /snip

    If we could do something about the extremes then it should be easier to balance everything from damage to healing to crowd control.

    For pretty much everything in the game.

    Damage? Yep.
    Healing? Yup.
    Buffs? Yep.
    Debuffs? Yup.
    Cleanses? Yep.

    It's Star Yo-Yo: Online...
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

    Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

    How exactly is it just fine as it is?

    I don't think Scrambles is the best example to pick here... in fact Scrambles seems to be one of those powers (like VM) that radically overcompensates for the less appealing offensive abilities.

    What I call the ability efficiency ratio is actually the opposite for Scrambles, and very much in its favor:

    a) Someone cranks up a ~30+ second Scrambles, it costs one ability cooldown
    b) To clear the five players affected now costs five Sci Teams. So as an ability it's 400% more effective than the cooldown it cost to use. (Arguably much more since Sci Team puts teams onto the global and can leave players extremely vulnerable)

    I'm not saying Scrambles needs a nerf, but it is a good example of how some abilities are a no-brainer because of just how powerful and efficient they are; you could compare SS to EPtS in this regard, since both do so much and cost so little. I mean at least getting EWP to do the same work requires you to move around a little.
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    In that example Tom looks like he put too many of his eggs in one basket. :P



    I'm against Tiered cleanses:

    1) I think this adds an unneeded and not really fun layer of added complexity. Complexity for complexities sake is not something I'm really interested in. This also pushes the barrier for entry into PvP even higher than it is.

    2) How does this affect the PUG group, where you can't even get a basic heal or ES? Now you have to know which particular tier of debuff you've been hit with and hope someone on your team actually slotted the appropriate tier to counter it.

    3) UI: On my 24 inch widescreen at high resolution the buff/debuff icons are frustratingly tiny, and generally give no indication of which particular version of X ability you've been debuffed with - without actually mouse hovering over it. Needing to mouse hover over an Icon once you've already been disabled slowing your reaction time even further? Again, I'm against this.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I don't think Scrambles is the best example to pick here...

    Yeah, I was caught up in the 1v1 thought process with Tom and Jerry and not thinking that clearly through. Even with VM, as you pointed out, DOFF'd it can spread - so that's not going to work for the scenario I was trying to present. One could even say that APB works in that fashion, since you can FAW/CSV/TS it.

    I appear to have used up too many braincells looking at how turn can stack in the other thread...

    ...think I'm going to bow out of this discussion just reiterating what's been said about this being Star Yo-Yo: Online.

    Thanks, shim.

    edit: But first this, going back to my tiered thing earlier and folks having said they're against that.

    I'd be against a strict tiered system as well, but that's why I didn't present that - I presented a gradual system reflecting potential differences in abilities.

    Needing to have Cleanse3 to deal with Stuff3 would be...too much to ask of how STO's setup - it would be way too radical of a change to pretty much everything. It's a lot easier to slot Stuff3 than Cleanse3. On the other hand, it's silly that Cleanse1 can cleanse Stuff3 as well as Cleanse3 can, imho...
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tom has 9 pts in the T5 skill CMS, has 4x VR MKII CMS consoles, has the Jem Mk XII Deflector, has Bio-Space DOFF(s) for the recharge debuff, activates his T5 Rom ability, and uses SS3 in his Cmdr Sci BOFF slot.

    Jerry has 0 pts in Sensors, no Sensor consoles, has no Sensor bonus on his Deflector, has no Rep, and uses ST1.

    How exactly is it just fine as it is?

    Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

    Yes its 100% fine as is.

    Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.
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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

    Yes its 100% fine as is.

    Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.

    I'm not even going to make a simian joke. Although I'd dearly love to. What you've said is in fact true. And really a fully charged smack down capable Alpha is 100% wasted if TT pops up on the target so at the LEAST we can say that it is consistent. And that's very good that it is consistent. This was a key feature of a game that was designed around a concept of attack/counter. Never was it intended that ships would instapop. Always it was intended that there would be at least some discrete measure of time to use a counter, and only if by FAILING to do so for some reason would a ship be in mortal peril.

    Just by way of discussion though, and to show one way that may satisfy the OP's wish. Take sensor scan. Okay it debuffs the targets resistance. If the target puts up delta, that doesn't clear the sensor scan, but it does have the net effect of offsetting some of it by boosting resistances. So some things in the game already work this way. It isn't often considered to be the same, but essentially boosting shield resistance is a very common and clear method of a graduated response to weapons damage.

    And there would be MYRIAD ways to make teams do the same sort of thing. Just there isn't a clear reason to do so. Initially using a team was meant to be a hefty choice. Remember, if you clear that VM you're now very vulnerable to Boarding Party 3! So it's a cheesy easy way to clear things, but by doing so you do leave yourself vulnerable to the other 2 classes.

    Of course, that was before we thought smashing the cooldowns into nothing was a clever idea.

    Cheers and happy doing whatever it is you going to do!
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013

    The TT spam cleanse of APB and the spammable HE destroying the DPS of an insane plasma build...well, those kind of tick me off. Can have a blast in PvE, but that fix doesn't cut it in the long run. With a mix of Hyper, Omega, Plasma Torps, Plasma Mines, EWP, Plasma Energy Weapons, and using the various Tac abilities for them - it's insane how many different types of Plasma DoTs you can stack and how high some of those stacks will go. All of it...poof...gone with a HE1.

    This is exactly why hazards is not op and needs to be left alone due to how op plasma would be with all the dot stacking. It would be way too easy to kill people with their shields completely up if hazards was nerfed in anyway. If anything it needs to be beefed up so it properly clears warp plasma for the whole duration rather when it is just activated.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    This is exactly why hazards is not op and needs to be left alone due to how op plasma would be with all the dot stacking. It would be way too easy to kill people with their shields completely up if hazards was nerfed in anyway. If anything it needs to be beefed up so it properly clears warp plasma for the whole duration rather when it is just activated.

    But that's the thing - it's Yo-Yo.

    Either HE's "useless" or Plasma's "useless"... there should be some happy middleground.

    Cause even with the HE thing - I should have done the Plasma thing on a Sci. SNB the HE and debuff the recharge so it's that much longer before it can be used again. ST that? Then Bio-Space SS to debuff the recharge after ST wears off. That's still going to be sitting inside the normal CD for the HE. Course, then there's the dual AtB HE - where the HE's not healing as much, but it's clearing the PDoTs faster.

    Almost everything in the game is at some extreme, as previously mentioned by another poster...

    But in looking at it, it can't just be a case of making X change to HE or Y change to PDoTs. X and Y have to be made while looking at both HE and PDoTs. And even there, there's more than just the HE and PDoTs to consider when looking at it...

    Cryptic keeps lumping more and more complexity - more variables - on top of something that's poorly balanced to begin with...it only gets worse, will only get worse.

    Balance is an illusion. Sometimes your broken TRIBBLE will kill the guy - sometimes the guy's broken TRIBBLE will kill you. That's balance in STO.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Its fine just as it is Mai...

    What would you prefer some sort of stun wars. No thanks.

    Sci is extremely powerful as it is... its funny you are the one always complaining about how weak sci is ... and I think we both know that is hardly the case. All you see in PvP anymore is escorts and sci ships ? why is that do you think.

    People complaining that sci is weak are simply misguided. Sci is 100% fine just as it is, including resists to things like shield strip. Anyone that has in fact tried the skills people say are resisted to heavily or counted to easily, know (if they aren't terrible players) that they are in fact very powerful... timing debuffs / buffs is important... a system where no one has the right counters simply makes a brain dead system.... SOrry I don't want no Stun wars here... Cryptic may have lucked into a system where they have created a ton of counters, however compared to other MMOs I'll take this system where stuns are super powerful if you TIME them proper... over a click it when its up and win system anyway.


    I actually see a fix to this being a nerf to science since 50% of the cleanse powers currently are science skills used by 90% of the players.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Tom shouldn't have been stupid enough to blow his best debuff when his target obviously had no team cool downs... Next time Tom should wait for Jerry to use a tac team... or sci team... that way he knows he won't counter with out team help.

    Yes its 100% fine as is.

    Next time when Tom doesn't play like a button smashing monkey Jerry will regret having timed his counters poorly and will suffer through the annoyance Tom will slap on him before respawning him.

    Going on that logic no power would ever have a duration longer then 15 seconds.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    I actually see a fix to this being a nerf to science since 50% of the cleanse powers currently are science skills used by 90% of the players.

    That's not how the game is designed in my opinion (No idea what the devs think).

    "Science" skills are not the sole province of "Science Ships" or "Science Captains" only, typically speaking, the upper tier ones are their sole province.

    The same goes for Eng & Tac.


    The lower tiers are effectively all shared/common/borderline must have abilities for all ships/captains, the upper tier ones are where the ship classes find the sharpest definition of what their ships can do.

    Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that as upper tier options can change your lower tier options, but that's how I see the design from a macro view.



    So what you describe isn't a nerf to "science", it's a nerf to the potential science functions on every vessel type.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    That's not how the game is designed in my opinion (No idea what the devs think).

    "Science" skills are not the sole province of "Science Ships" or "Science Captains" only, typically speaking, the upper tier ones are their sole province.

    The same goes for Eng & Tac.


    The lower tiers are effectively all shared/common/borderline must have abilities for all ships/captains, the upper tier ones are where the ship classes find the sharpest definition of what their ships can do.

    Obviously it's a bit more complicated than that as upper tier options can change your lower tier options, but that's how I see the design from a macro view.



    So what you describe isn't a nerf to "science", it's a nerf to the potential science functions on every vessel type.

    How so? Right now the hazzard emitters and science team are the 2 powers I mentioned. Everyone uses them. Take some of the "clearing" capabilities and make brand new powers that can be used to clear specific things and remove them from the powers the currently are tied to. Example- hazzard emitters putting out plasma fire. Why isn't there an engineering ability that does this that isn't engineering team? "Emergency extinguishers" sounds like a good name for a power that would do this.

    Think outside the box
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    So I guess cross healing support from Escorts is dead now with those changes, eh? My HE won't clear that one healer stuck in EWP.

    Meh it's too messy, this game is already hanging on by a very thin thread, and people are proposing radical changes that will have an as of yet unknown effect on teams.

    I appreciate the intent of this thread, but the ideas go too far.
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    How so? Right now the hazzard emitters and science team are the 2 powers I mentioned. Everyone uses them.

    Yes, everyone using them is exactly why they are a nerf to all ships and not "science".

    maicake716 wrote: »
    Take some of the "clearing" capabilities and make brand new powers that can be used to clear specific things and remove them from the powers the currently are tied to. Example- hazzard emitters putting out plasma fire. Why isn't there an engineering ability that does this that isn't engineering team? "Emergency extinguishers" sounds like a good name for a power that would do this.

    We have engineering powers that solve other issues, such as emergency power skills that bring systems back online.


    "Emergency Extinguishers" sounds like a 1 dimensional cleanse ability if all it does is put out plasma fires and any plasma fire clones.

    I think the game is better off with specific debuffs and general use cleanses.

    Making "specific cleanses" seems like it could quickly border on the ridiculous, needing a specific cleanse for every single specific debuff type.


    The vast majority of powers in this game are multifunctional, and I much prefer them that way personally.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    Think outside the box

    HE itself should be an Eng BOFF ability.

    How about thinking outside the room the box is in?

    Combine Nadion Inversion and EPS Power into one ability and make HE an Eng Captain ability that can be used self/ally.

    How about thinking in the backyard of the house with the room where the box is while drinking a foofoo fruity drink with more alcohol than juice on a warm Summer afternoon?

    Much like SNB shouldn't actually strip nor cause the recharge debuff on all abilities, the various cleanses should not cleanse everything. They should only cleanse a certain number of debuffs/effects. A complete cleanse ability should be something on a longer CD - along the lines of a new Captain ability when they raise the level cap.
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