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Breen Transphasic Cluster Torpedo, is it OP now?

webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
edited March 2013 in PvP Gameplay
I was looking at the Transphasic cluster torpedo. Especially after the last few days where I've been noticing it impact against players and almost kill them.. Then I read it..while in space.

With NO Consoles, and only 6 Points in Projectiles.. it says it deals 2,096 damage PER MINE.. and when it spits them out it deploys 10 Mines, with 40% Shield pen..

Which means if each mine hits a protected shield facing that is at least 20k damage.. How ever, even if there are shields it deals at least 800 damage per mine before resists are calculated.. An that's 8,000 Damage in total...right? Or am I wrong and Crazy? :confused:
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Comments

  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It has the same CritH issue that Tric Mines have. W/debuffs and CritH it can kill, or Tac buffs maybe. Really if the CritH issue was fixed it'd be ok. It's also not high on my concern list given a TB and a volley can kill it. Also, bfi and other spike resists help. Many people switch to TBR as well.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Breen torp has always been op... it just never worked properly. lol

    No seriously 2 things have changed that yes I believe make it one of the many BS items in the game.

    1) they fixed it... I know right. It used to not launch 25% of the time so lots of people never dreamed of really using it for more then the lulz.

    2) The addition of Torpedo doffs. Anytime a torpedo doff procs... it reduces the cool down of the breen cluster torp. Honestly if I put on on my torp brel I can launch one about every 8-16s aprox... which is much much faster then the 45s it was balanced at. I have gotten lucky roles where I have had 3 out at once that hadn't landed yet cause someone was trying to outrun them instead of shoot them.

    1 - To balance these things honestly.... They likely SHOULD not be Transphasic. (I know I know there breen and they use them) but something like photon would have been a better choice.

    2 - Torpedo doffs need to stop effecting them.
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  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited January 2013
    I brought this topic up in another thread where i even choose to change APO abit. Breen Cluster is a menace especially with the crit link going on. Im suprised why this one wasnt touched by the devs, but tricobalts were.
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  • kalvorax#3775 kalvorax Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    probably because trics were critting for 100k+ easliy..where as here its not even 10k per....ist more like 20k-30k in total and thats if the torp hits.....if not your sol lol
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited January 2013
    cynder2012 wrote: »
    probably because trics were critting for 100k+ easliy..where as here its not even 10k per....ist more like 20k-30k in total and thats if the torp hits.....if not your sol lol

    Well true, but trics can only be deployed every minute while breen clusters of whom you can equip several of, has a much higher RoF. On top of that tric mines are EASY to evade as long as you are on the move and keep a high speed. The blast from the tric will usually skim your shields, while trannies will go for full damage impact regardless of shields as it hits hull directly. The only times where trics really ARE danegerous is when your ship is held or immobilized.
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To be fair, shield tanking has gotten to be a little OP.
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited January 2013
    To be fair, shield tanking has gotten to be a little OP.

    How? Shields are bloody easy to deal with. To be honest I have a bigger issue with speed tanking.
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  • kalvorax#3775 kalvorax Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    devorasx wrote: »
    Well true, but trics can only be deployed every minute while breen clusters of whom you can equip several of, has a much higher RoF. On top of that tric mines are EASY to evade as long as you are on the move and keep a high speed. The blast from the tric will usually skim your shields, while trannies will go for full damage impact regardless of shields as it hits hull directly. The only times where trics really ARE danegerous is when your ship is held or immobilized.

    Ah i see....i didnt know you could equip multiple...i always thought it was a unique one per ship weapon..
  • rudiefix1rudiefix1 Member Posts: 420
    edited January 2013
    Is it me?
    I noticed they no longer crit one = crit all ?
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    devorasx wrote: »
    How? Shields are bloody easy to deal with. To be honest I have a bigger issue with speed tanking.

    Brace for impact doff's that still stack instantly regening shields, TTS being better than extends, AP's granting shield resists, tac team doffs and don't forget adaptive elite fleet shields with avg 27.5% resistances.

    Clustermines are slow, die super quick to all forms of AOE and only one shot people with no hull resistance to speak of. They also don't work without an absurd amount of holds in a super specialist skill spec, and even then human boff's have greatly reduced their effectiveness.
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited January 2013
    rudiefix1 wrote: »
    Is it me?
    I noticed they no longer crit one = crit all ?

    I wish i wish it was so, but alas prey, its not.
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  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited January 2013
    Brace for impact doff's that still stack instantly regening shields, TTS being better than extends, AP's granting shield resists, tac team doffs and don't forget adaptive elite fleet shields with avg 27.5% resistances.

    Clustermines are slow, die super quick to all forms of AOE and only one shot people with no hull resistance to speak of. They also don't work without an absurd amount of holds in a super specialist skill spec, and even then human boff's have greatly reduced their effectiveness.

    Say hello to shield stripping builds, major alpha damage from escorts, tet glider in combo with teryon weapons. And if you dont want to bother with damaging shields run a trannie comboed with plasma boat to burn away hull. Who cares for shields when you can spam torps and mines faster then you can clear them, and go directly for hull?

    Shields are worthless these days when speed is so much more valuable.
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  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    devorasx wrote: »
    Say hello to shield stripping builds, major alpha damage from escorts, tet glider in combo with teryon weapons. And if you dont want to bother with damaging shields run a trannie comboed with plasma boat to burn away hull. Who cares for shields when you can spam torps and mines faster then you can clear them, and go directly for hull?

    Shields are worthless these days when speed is so much more valuable.
    Tetryon stripping builds are worthless, and vs a decent premade, escort alpha isn't that effective against overlapping extends or decent shield tank setup. You have aux2bat setups that give RSP every 50 seconds, and its only recently that the doffs were fixed.

    Either way, the tools are there, to tank transphasic mines with speed, hull resists or aoe. And if they get nerfed, it won't be long before those using these builds move on to the next thing, And then I'm sure the next version of this thread sprouts up from someone not used to countering XYZ build.
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Cluster torps are only that strong because of the 1 crits = all crits issue. Beside that they are easy to counter, easier than tric mines actually. It's a single slow moving projectile that doesn't cloak. So your only real chance to hit anything is at point blank against an immobilized or slow moving target.

    Most of the time it's the cruisers or carriers getting hit cause they are the easiest targets. To even hit escorts or sci ships you'll need a good amount of control (hold and or disables) or your target will simply fly away. Just a bit of AoE and the torp is close to useless anyway. Additional hull resistance like Aux2SIF will usually take a lot of the torps oomph away, that's of course if your ship already has some basic kinetic resistance with an armor console and a couple points in armor skill (which a lot of PvPers seem to neglect).

    To get the clustor torp down to its global of 15 seconds you either need a complete torpedo build with torp doffs or up to 3 cluster torpedoes (which I actually did already). And again, as long as your target isn't perma disabled and completly out of support, you won't shoot your torp as soon as it is available. If your target is disabled and out of support, it deserves to get hit by a hard hitting weapon.

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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    In terms of raw damage? No, I don't think it's OP. In terms of tactics...yes, I could see that. This thing is a spike damage weapon, the long CD (torp DOFFs aside for the moment), and the large amount of potential damage is really what it is for.

    Damage: 2,096 damage per mine at base with no buffs or skills. So that is a total (presuming there's no crits, and each mine does exactly that damage), of 20,960 damage.

    Now, only 40% of that is going to bleedthrough. That is 8,384 damage, or 838 damage per mine. That's still presuming that the target has no kinetic resistance as well. If the person even has 25% kinetic resistance, already that is gonna drop them by another 2k damage or so.

    If the numbers weren't high, it'd be a joke to use it, because most of the damage still goes against shields, and the rest can be resisted easily enough.

    Much like all other mines, they fall under the realm of 'one crit to rule them all', so if it crits to start it, the whole mine volley will critical as well. If this issue is fixed, these might not really be an issue anymore.

    Now, one thing I do all the time, and I see it fairly often as well is: You can fire this at nearly point-blank range and it'll immediately split into the mines and hit the target very quickly. I normally do and see this where the person is flying at their target and they launch it to really lay a rapid hurting, OR, they do it as they have passed overhead (mostly tacs in escorts btw), and fire it from behind, usually hitting a much weaker shield facing, most of the times allowing for a very hard hit against bare hull.

    So it removes a major weakness of mines, their 'arming time' by doing that. To me, that's a good usage of your weapon. However, often times that isn't all there is. I'll probably be hated on for it, but...

    Tac buffs. What happens is that a tac preps an alpha strike, and launches the cluster torp at point blank range, vaporizing someone in one shot a good part of the time.

    Now, don't misunderstand, it's not so much a big issue that tac buffs are letting this happen, it's more that this is why it might be OP. I mean, how can you truly counter a torpedo fired at point-blank range, while super-buffed by a tac, possibly chain-critting, AND does a good portion of it's damage right through shields.

    All that together might make this thing seem OP, but take away even 1 of those things, and it might not be so bad. I'd rather again, see em fix chain-critting first, before looking at the other stuff.



    A good nerf, without nerfing damage, would probably be to instead look at preventing it's point-blank firing. Treat it kind of like the Bio-neural in that you can't fire it at point-blank, but have to fire it from at least say...3 km out or something.

    Even if the damage is nerfed too much, then nobody will use it ever again, because engs and scis can't buff it enough to be worthwhile, and tacs will just use a different torp or some other thing instead.
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  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    A good nerf, without nerfing damage, would probably be to instead look at preventing it's point-blank firing. Treat it kind of like the Bio-neural in that you can't fire it at point-blank, but have to fire it from at least say...3 km out or something.

    As I see it, this would kill it. The only real chance to hit something and deal damage is at point blank. With 2 or 3 km traveling distance the torp will only catch the slowest, fatest and most stupid targets. And let's not forget the Bioneural Warhead has hull and shields, the cluster torp only gets 1 HP.

    The only real issue I see with it is still the crits, everything else seems fine for the amount of work it requires to get the torp in.

    Edit: I'm only using cluster torps with my sci, so I can't say anything about tac buffs and tac buffed cluster torps. Feel free to correct my if that's the cause of the issue.

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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    decker03 wrote: »
    As I see it, this would kill it. The only real chance to hit something and deal damage is at point blank. With 2 or 3 km traveling distance the torp will only catch the slowest, fatest and most stupid targets. And let's not forget the Bioneural Warhead has hull and shields, the cluster torp only gets 1 HP.

    The only real issue I see with it is still the crits, everything else seems fine for the amount of work it requires to get the torp in.

    Edit: I'm only using cluster torps with my sci, so I can't say anything about tac buffs and tac buffed cluster torps. Feel free to correct my if that's the cause of the issue.

    I dunno, those who use it, have ways of possibly hiding it like any other mine and targetable torp in the middle of a hectic fight.

    Say you are using EWP or Theta on a ship, and you fly next to someone, trapping them in it. Whether or not they have/get HE, they'll be stuck for at least a few seconds minimum. As you fly past you can either launch it before you get to them, or after you get by them at the 3 km range (presuming this change was put in), and the torp will probably be hidden long enough for them to not see it.

    Even just using a super-cheese console like AMS reduces perception enough that you probably wouldn't see the torp. So there'd be ways even around that.

    As for the tac buffs thing, I'll actually be specifically testing this out later, since I was talking about it. I'll probably post at least some basic numbers later on.
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  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ive also noticed that sometimes the mine cluster will spawn instantly and detonate instantly.... other times the mines actually deploy into the pattern then set then lock onto a target.

    i have no idea what causes this and why it happens but ill be chased by a cluster torp then BOOM my hull is halfway down before i even realize the torp got close enough to deploy.

    has anyone else noticed this?
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  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I dunno, those who use it, have ways of possibly hiding it like any other mine and targetable torp in the middle of a hectic fight.

    Say you are using EWP or Theta on a ship, and you fly next to someone, trapping them in it. Whether or not they have/get HE, they'll be stuck for at least a few seconds minimum. As you fly past you can either launch it before you get to them, or after you get by them at the 3 km range (presuming this change was put in), and the torp will probably be hidden long enough for them to not see it.

    Unfortunatly that's really the only thing you can do. Trying to hide the torp with warp plasma is one of the things I do with my Wells for example. Even then, ther's plenty of things the enemy can and will do and as soon as someone hits HE, his resistance is high enough that everything beside a critting cluster torp won't do much. I'm using cluster torps for a couple months now, long before they became so popular and I realized that a huge amount of cluster torps can be countered easily.

    I'm not saying that's all that can be done, but it requires a lot of things to be done and the right circumstances to create a somewhat reliable opportunity for the torp to really hit and hit hard. At least as long as the enemy isn't completly stupid. So beside the crit issue I don't think any change is needed at the moment.
    maicake716 wrote: »
    ive also noticed that sometimes the mine cluster will spawn instantly and detonate instantly.... other times the mines actually deploy into the pattern then set then lock onto a target.

    i have no idea what causes this and why it happens but ill be chased by a cluster torp then BOOM my hull is halfway down before i even realize the torp got close enough to deploy.

    has anyone else noticed this?

    I can't remember instant detonations, but instant deployment usually happens at about 0.4 km range. After that they arm faster than standard mines within 1 second and boom.

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  • hurleybirdhurleybird Member Posts: 909
    edited January 2013
    It's pretty powerful, but not sure if it's OP or not.

    Clusters don't have close to the spike potential of tric mines, they're easy to see, easy to shoot down, and easy to speed tank when deployed. They're also easy to counter with a modicum of hull resistance, like hitting your brace for impact when you see one heading your way.

    That all being said, against a stopped and stripped target they can hit pretty hard. Luckily, FAW being fixed may end up being a nice counterbalance.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    hurleybird wrote: »
    It's pretty powerful, but not sure if it's OP or not.

    Clusters don't have close to the spike potential of tric mines, they're easy to see, easy to shoot down, and easy to speed tank when deployed. They're also easy to counter with a modicum of hull resistance, like hitting your brace for impact when you see one heading your way.

    That all being said, against a stopped and stripped target they can hit pretty hard. Luckily, FAW being fixed may end up being a nice counterbalance.

    their issue would be solved as soon as the "one crit they all crit" is fixed.

    tacitcals being able to obviously get a higher crit rate then other classes combined with their damage boosting abilities and the nifty consoles that make you crit more often too... and well.... thats when the opness happens.

    10 mines or so hitting for 3-6k per hit that goes right through shields...

    as apposed to if thye fix the crit issue then itd be a lot less of course.

    so many issues can be solved with the crit issue being fixed.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
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  • burstorionburstorion Member Posts: 1,750 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    maicake716 wrote: »
    their issue would be solved as soon as the "one crit they all crit" is fixed.

    tacitcals being able to obviously get a higher crit rate then other classes combined with their damage boosting abilities and the nifty consoles that make you crit more often too... and well.... thats when the opness happens.

    10 mines or so hitting for 3-6k per hit that goes right through shields...

    as apposed to if thye fix the crit issue then itd be a lot less of course.

    so many issues can be solved with the crit issue being fixed.

    Hey...how about if they fix that 'one crit, they all crit' issue for..say...cannon fire..that'd make flying anything other than a dhc capable ship far more fun in pvp and make pve less of a 'use dhc and escort' faceroll

    That'd be far a far more useful nerf in pvp if all chaincrits were fixed, not aiming at nerfing individual items that can pretty much be killed by faw, tbr, kinetic armor consoles if it does hit, point defence, turret csv...
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    burstorion wrote: »
    Hey...how about if they fix that 'one crit, they all crit' issue for..say...cannon fire..that'd make flying anything other than a dhc capable ship far more fun in pvp and make pve less of a 'use dhc and escort' faceroll

    That'd be far a far more useful nerf in pvp if all chaincrits were fixed, not aiming at nerfing individual items that can pretty much be killed by faw, tbr, kinetic armor consoles if it does hit, point defence, turret csv...

    The One Crit thing does affect many things. It's an issue with Tric Mines. Breen Clusters do the One Crit. Even Plasma DoTs One Crit. It's all over the place...supposedly an engine issue, no?

    Given how high folks are able to pump crit compared to previously - One Crit's are going to be a more common occurrence.

    Course, asking for them to be fixed will stir the mire of some members of the PvE community.

    Have to wonder, though, with the potential increase of damage coming our way from addressing weapon modifiers/procs on abilities - might now be a good time to address the One Crit (if it's fixable or an engine issue) - otherwise, damage is going to get...FPS, headshot to the bridge, boom.
  • playhard88playhard88 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    is effective, no op.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It does raise some eyebrows at times with the random megacrits but honestly at least it's an effective weapon. I can't in good conscience call it overpowered.
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  • orondisorondis Member Posts: 1,447 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Breen transphasic cluster torps are powerful, but hardly op.

    I will agree though that the linked crits (on all mine type weapons) need to be fixed. That's what's truly causing the problem.
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  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited January 2013
    I fly a B'rel torpedo boat with this cluster torpedo, fully specc'ed for torpedo damage, and this doesn't seem that overpowered to me.

    Yes, it does some decent hull damage, but I rarely get kills with it. It's usually a Harg'Peng secondary explosion, quantum torpedo spread, or my bio-neural warhead that gets the kill.

    Perhaps it is because I do not have tranphasic tactical consoles.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    burstorion wrote: »
    Hey...how about if they fix that 'one crit, they all crit' issue for..say...cannon fire..that'd make flying anything other than a dhc capable ship far more fun in pvp and make pve less of a 'use dhc and escort' faceroll

    That'd be far a far more useful nerf in pvp if all chaincrits were fixed, not aiming at nerfing individual items that can pretty much be killed by faw, tbr, kinetic armor consoles if it does hit, point defence, turret csv...

    cannon fire doesnt have a "one crit they all crit" issue.

    and i dont understand why you quoted me because thats what ive been trying to say all along, they need to fix the one crit they all crit issue before they nerf anything/adjust anything else that suffers from it (ie- mines deployed, breen cluster, warp plasma, fbp, etc etc)
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    decker03 wrote: »
    Unfortunatly that's really the only thing you can do. Trying to hide the torp with warp plasma is one of the things I do with my Wells for example. Even then, ther's plenty of things the enemy can and will do and as soon as someone hits HE, his resistance is high enough that everything beside a critting cluster torp won't do much. I'm using cluster torps for a couple months now, long before they became so popular and I realized that a huge amount of cluster torps can be countered easily.

    I'm not saying that's all that can be done, but it requires a lot of things to be done and the right circumstances to create a somewhat reliable opportunity for the torp to really hit and hit hard. At least as long as the enemy isn't completly stupid. So beside the crit issue I don't think any change is needed at the moment.

    Indeed, it has a lot of drawbacks. My idea was more a thought for 'if the crit issue is fixed, maybe look at doing this as well', if it is still considered overpowered.

    I'm in agreement that the crit thing needs to be fixed. Once that is gone, any 'OPness' about non-tric mines should disappear.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    With just decloak+Tac buffs it'll one-shot a Fleet Defiant through full shields and BFI w/o needing to debuff it first.

    It's overall base damage should come down while the Torpedo: High Yield and Torpedo: Spread need to stop nerfing the Shield penetration on Transphasic Torpedos. Otherwise the only reasonable Transphasic "spike" weapon will be the Cluster Torpedo to the end of days, as well as the mines.
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