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CrtH versus CrtD for crit builds

marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited January 2013 in PvP Gameplay
I have been using all CrtHx3 weapons for my BOP and Fleet defiant since s7 because of the new crit bonuses like Romulan passive, Romulan console, and romulan boffs. Also using it with the borg and tachyokinetic console, and have been pleased with the results. I like it much more then when I used Accx3 weapons or Fleet weapons, but lately have got in to several debates about why some people say CrtD would be better in both pve and pvp.

Just wondering what everyones opinion on this is. I figure since my BO3 is regularly critting for between 30-50k with CrtHx3 they will be dead or almost dead anyway if it crits, so I don't need anymore severity, I just need to ensure as much crits as possible so CrtH is better. Even with the opponent tractored it gurantees a hit, but not a crit so need to boost this to make sure it happens. It works great on my quantums and DHC to from what I have seen so far, and I think it would work better with the placate passive to even though I don't use this.

So does anyone think going all CrtD or combination or CrtD and CrtH would still be better or is going all CrtH better for a crit build?
Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
Post edited by marc8219 on
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Comments

  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The main difference between crtd and crth is one is magnitude of the crit the other is frequency.

    What is better for your build is dependent on a few factors. There is passive traits, specing boffs and weapon types. If you go into system space you can see your stats in the ship status screen under attack. If you have a very high severity you may prefer crth to crit more often.

    If you are using dhcs you may want critd instead to stack with the dhc crit bonus. crth is less of an issue since crf3 will make you fire more often anyway increasing your odds of crit due to volume of shots where a beam array has a 4 sec salvo so crth would be better.

    One of the new rare Romulan tac Boffs in the embassy has a new space trait that boosts crth by 3.8%. on a tac ship with 3 tac boff slots that can be a 11.4% crth boost and on top of the usual accolade/trait/borg console/spec you can get your crth on your ship up to 20% meaning one in 5 shots is a crit regardless of weapon and then crtd is your friend.

    Your stats in the ship status for crits is global and will be applied when fighting and is added to the bonus of the individual weapons. both are good to look into.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    For optimum DPS a ratio of 1% chance to 10% severity is ideal. So if you have 15% chance but only 100% severity increasing severity will be a better overall DPS choice.

    For maximum Spike potential it gets a bit more messy. Simply put do you want to get that crit more often or have it hit harder it is more of an opinion thing other than when using BO.
  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    ACCx3 gives both Crth and CrtD when you overcome their defense. I am not sure of the math involved but having a completely stopped target means negative defense (-15 if I am correct) which makes this even more possible. Not only is ACCx3 a more appropriate choice, especially for someone that has high defense, but because of the aforementioned. Now I am speaking from a PvP standpoint strictly. Unless you have some way of constantly holding your target or your target is big and slow, I woudn't use CrtH or CrtD.

    ACCx3 especially with acc as a passive on your toon as well as a host of other stuff that adds to the targeting skills makes for almost a 85% (Give or take 5-10%) hit rate while fighting a high defense target according to Advanced Combat Tracker. Couple this with an all Veteran Boff Loadout that has the "Space Warfare Specialist" passive which gives +5 to all these for each vet boff: maneuvers, targeting systems, energy and projectile weapons specialization, it makes for deadly accuracy. Put on the omega deflector at that gives +16.2 to targeting systems. Add the Omega engines and spec out your flow caps, and you now have tetyron glider which helps drain shields from those stubborn targets (Best to use the tetryon weapons that give the phaser proc as well) an you are all set...

    With the above mentioned setup (2 piece Omega, 5 vet boffs, Accurate Passive, Tachokinetic Console, Zero Point Console and Borg Assimilated Module), the skill, 4 DHC and 3 Turrets, I can almost maintain 90-95% hit rate on most target.

    Add a tractor beam, and nothing but crit...
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    So I think I will stay with all CrtH for me DBB and quantums to ensure spike damage happens when I need it, but maybe will try CrtD on my DHC and see how it does. It could help in situatuions where a cruiser is being to hard to spike and you have to just dps them for awhile to wear them down I think.

    I am using all the other stuff that gives CrtH and/or CrtD like the 3 consoles, rom passive, rom boffs, and max energy weapon and projectile weapon specilization skill.
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Just remember, you have to hit your target first. What if that miss was your "final blow" that would have devastated the target? My advice is to download Advanced Combat Tracker and download an STO script (there are a couple out there just google them) and test the various loadouts. It will tell you a lot and give you some good insight into what to use for your specific play style.

    If your going for the crits and you have the Accurate Trait, I would recommend ACCx2 and either tag from there.

    Definates are always better than chances. However, on chances, you could win big if thats what you're going for...
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    ACCx3 gives both Crth and CrtD when you overcome their defense. I am not sure of the math involved but having a completely stopped target means negative defense (-15 if I am correct) which makes this even more possible. Not only is ACCx3 a more appropriate choice, especially for someone that has high defense, but because of the aforementioned. Now I am speaking from a PvP standpoint strictly. Unless you have some way of constantly holding your target or your target is big and slow, I woudn't use CrtH or CrtD.

    ACCx3 especially with acc as a passive on your toon as well as a host of other stuff that adds to the targeting skills makes for almost a 85% (Give or take 5-10%) hit rate while fighting a high defense target according to Advanced Combat Tracker. Couple this with an all Veteran Boff Loadout that has the "Space Warfare Specialist" passive which gives +5 to all these for each vet boff: maneuvers, targeting systems, energy and projectile weapons specialization, it makes for deadly accuracy. Put on the omega deflector at that gives +16.2 to targeting systems. Add the Omega engines and spec out your flow caps, and you now have tetyron glider which helps drain shields from those stubborn targets (Best to use the tetryon weapons that give the phaser proc as well) an you are all set...

    With the above mentioned setup, the skill, 4 DHC and 3 Turrets, I can almost maintain 90-95% hit rate on most target.

    Add a tractor beam, and nothing but crit...

    I have Accx3 weapons but they just never seemed to do enough damage. I have accurate trait and max targeting systems and omega deflector so I do miss , but still seem to hit enough with CrtHx3 even on fast moving escorts without tractoring them. I even tried the accx3 weapons after s7 with the various new crit bonuses, it still didn't crit as much as CrtHx3. I'm not sure what the exact formula is but it seems like acc overflow isn't adding nearly as much to crit chance as CrtH does. Also I only play cloaked ships Fed and KDF side so have a lot of choice in target and when to attack, like when their omega wears off and i can safely tractor them so dont need acc so much.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    As I said, download ACT and a STO script for it (if you have dual monitors you can even track the stats live while playing) and you can actually see what you are doing in real time and real numbers.

    This way you will know for sure...
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    Just remember, you have to hit your target first. What if that miss was your "final blow" that would have devastated the target? My advice is to download Advanced Combat Tracker and download an STO script (there are a couple out there just google them) and test the various loadouts. It will tell you a lot and give you some good insight into what to use for your specific play style.

    If your going for the crits and you have the Accurate Trait, I would recommend ACCx2 and either tag from there.

    Definates are always better than chances. However, on chances, you could win big if thats what you're going for...

    For a high pressure damage build I agree, but opportunistic debuff/spike builds critH or critD are better imo.

    There are so many repairs and resists in game now, imo, timing a Debuff like TB and Alpha will get high hits and at that point it's a matter of Weapon type if CritD or CritH is better. I'd say CritD is probably better for DCHs if you (or team) has a means of debuffing a target's defense and are smart about it.
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Here is one script
    http://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/yoc4e/how_to_act_a_semicomprehensive_guide/

    and here is another
    http://hilbertguide.com/ACT.html

    I have a few more older versions from Hilbert that might suit your needs better that he no longer has listed if you want them.

    BTW if you don't have dual monitors, you can still see the stats after the fact using import to import the combat log into ACT... Or you can use the mini window overlay which you can configure to show different stats live while play the game too...
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    ACCx3 gives both Crth and CrtD when you overcome their defense. I am not sure of the math involved but having a completely stopped target means negative defense (-15 if I am correct) which makes this even more possible. Not only is ACCx3 a more appropriate choice, especially for someone that has high defense, but because of the aforementioned. Now I am speaking from a PvP standpoint strictly. Unless you have some way of constantly holding your target or your target is big and slow, I woudn't use CrtH or CrtD.

    ACCx3 especially with acc as a passive on your toon as well as a host of other stuff that adds to the targeting skills makes for almost a 85% (Give or take 5-10%) hit rate while fighting a high defense target according to Advanced Combat Tracker. Couple this with an all Veteran Boff Loadout that has the "Space Warfare Specialist" passive which gives +5 to all these for each vet boff: maneuvers, targeting systems, energy and projectile weapons specialization, it makes for deadly accuracy. Put on the omega deflector at that gives +16.2 to targeting systems. Add the Omega engines and spec out your flow caps, and you now have tetyron glider which helps drain shields from those stubborn targets (Best to use the tetryon weapons that give the phaser proc as well) an you are all set...

    With the above mentioned setup (2 piece Omega, 5 vet boffs, Accurate Passive, Tachokinetic Console, Zero Point Console and Borg Assimilated Module), the skill, 4 DHC and 3 Turrets, I can almost maintain 90-95% hit rate on most target.

    Add a tractor beam, and nothing but crit...

    Accx3 is extremely overrated. Yes it gives you overflow crth and crtd. NO it is no where near equal. Even if you manage to gets someone into negative defense. (which is pretty much impossible these days vs a non noob)... even then you would be lucky to get an extra 1-2% of crth... and perhaps 10-20% of crtd.... ACC is no replacement for the real thing.

    Stick with your CRTHx3... they do far more dmg then CRTD... which imo is still a pretty much useless stat.

    Mostly these days I run... [acc] [crth]x2... as when you DO crit your sevarity will be effected by Acc/Def ratings... you get a pretty good natural ACC with full spec and Acc captain trait... having the extra 20 from accx3... IS NOT worth the lose of 4% crit hit. basicly with one ACC mod and proper spec you will land hits so that won't be an issue... and the overage difference +20 will give you would in an absolute best scenario might be an extra .75% or so.

    CRTD... last I tested it is pretty much junk... what it does is provid 10% stronger crits (overall)... as the 20% in provides is 20% of the CRITICAL dmg. Meaning if you where to land a perfect 1000... if it crit it would be 1500... if you have CRTDx3 it would be 1800... that is hardly worth the trade in crit... or acc.
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    For a high pressure damage build I agree, but opportunistic debuff/spike builds critH or critD are better imo.

    There are so many repairs and resists in game now, imo, timing a Debuff like TB and Alpha will get high hits and at that point it's a matter of Weapon type if CritD or CritH is better. I'd say CritD is probably better for DCHs if you (or team) has a means of debuffing a target's defense and are smart about it.

    I agree to a point, but then again I have never used tractors in my build to stop targets. I always end up with a higher crit or damage chance but my actual damage seems to go down according to ACT because of the miss factor. Maybe I am missing something here, but I have been using the same version of this build since open beta and I have a pretty nice success rate with it. If I am fighting someone that I want to go down and I have the right assistance, it works wonders. But then again you can't go at a skilled team alone anyways. It doesn't matter what you have as some like to think...
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Accx3 is extremely overrated. Yes it gives you overflow crth and crtd. NO it is no where near equal. Even if you manage to gets someone into negative defense. (which is pretty much impossible these days vs a non noob)... even then you would be lucky to get an extra 1-2% of crth... and perhaps 10-20% of crtd.... ACC is no replacement for the real thing.

    Stick with your CRTHx3... they do far more dmg then CRTD... which imo is still a pretty much useless stat.

    Mostly these days I run... [acc] [crth]x2... as when you DO crit your sevarity will be effected by Acc/Def ratings... you get a pretty good natural ACC with full spec and Acc captain trait... having the extra 20 from accx3... IS NOT worth the lose of 4% crit hit. basicly with one ACC mod and proper spec you will land hits so that won't be an issue... and the overage difference +20 will give you would in an absolute best scenario might be an extra .75% or so.

    CRTD... last I tested it is pretty much junk... what it does is provid 10% stronger crits (overall)... as the 20% in provides is 20% of the CRITICAL dmg. Meaning if you where to land a perfect 1000... if it crit it would be 1500... if you have CRTDx3 it would be 1800... that is hardly worth the trade in crit... or acc.

    How are you tracking these stats? By visual acuity or with a combat log parser? I noticed a huge difference in the amount of crit chance from PvE to PvP (obviously) and I have also noticed via a combat log parser that having the Hx3 only gains a 1-1.5% (sometimes slightly more) increase in MOST circumstances because of the human factor. And its obvious that you crit higher damage once shields are gone... YOu still crit a lot with shields up but the crits are much smaller unless using a BO3 or HY3 to try to melt shields.

    I stand by ACCx3 or Accx2 [h or d] if you have the accurate passive. But going to an all Hx3 or Dx3 i feel looses too much. You're just hoping for that hit and that it crits massively (unless they have a really low defense rating). Dx3 would be the worst choice of the two though if that was all I had to choose from...
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To put it another way for you... consider this.

    You are running 4 DHC and you want them to crit and land and kill some one....

    Lets assume you are a tac with an 8% crit rate most of the time. (I know you can get crit up and around 20%... lets go with 8% as a good avg number not counting weapons).

    For every 4 shots (one volley of DHC)...
    Your would have a 28.36% chance that ONE of the 4 would crit.

    Now assuming you had crthx2 weaponry... your crit chance goes up to 12%....
    You now have a 40.03% chance that ONE of your 4 would crit.

    If you go a bit further and say I can on average get 2 rounds of fire off when I get someone lined up...
    That means with the base weapons you would have a 48.68% chance to land at least one crit in there.

    If you have Crthx2 you have a 65% chance to land a crit. Thats over 15% higher chance every time your weapons cycle TWICE... average that over a match and you will find that CRTH is the clear winner.

    I calculated this with CRTH for one reason... People are going to tell you "ya ya what good is crth if you miss" well parse it and see... spec right have acc trait and run one acc mod and your hit rate will be with in 2% of ACCx3 weapons... and I can tell you the way the game works those 2% hit shots... where at times when your opponent had such high defesne that even the accx3 shooter is NOT getting any crits and for sure not killing anyone.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    How are you tracking these stats? By visual acuity or with a combat log parser? I noticed a huge difference in the amount of crit chance from PvE to PvP (obviously) and I have also noticed via a combat log parser that having the Hx3 only gains a 1-1.5% (sometimes slightly more) increase in MOST circumstances because of the human factor. And its obvious that you crit higher damage once shields are gone... YOu still crit a lot with shields up but the crits are much smaller unless using a BO3 or HY3 to try to melt shields.

    I stand by ACCx3 or Accx2 [h or d] if you have the accurate passive. But going to an all Hx3 or Dx3 i feel looses too much. You're just hoping for that hit and that it crits massively. Dx3 would be the worst choice of the two though if that was all I had to choose from...

    Have you parsed it ? even with out ACC at all on the weapons Misses aren't near as common as some people seem to think.

    Also consider this... people are stupid. :) lmao

    I kid but I'm serious... people spend WAY to much time shooting at the wrong target at times. I have been in matches and watched VERY good players ignore a sci ship stuck in some cruisers warp spew.... cause they have the escort down to 20%. (who now has got omega and evasive up)... if they are seeing misses in that case its because they are plain out to stupid to switch targets for 10s. In that case even ACCx3 isn't likely going to finish that escort until his defense buffs run out.
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To put it another way for you... consider this.

    You are running 4 DHC and you want them to crit and land and kill some one....

    Lets assume you are a tac with an 8% crit rate most of the time. (I know you can get crit up and around 20%... lets go with 8% as a good avg number not counting weapons).

    For every 4 shots (one volley of DHC)...
    Your would have a 28.36% chance that ONE of the 4 would crit.

    Now assuming you had crthx2 weaponry... your crit chance goes up to 12%....
    You now have a 40.03% chance that ONE of your 4 would crit.

    If you go a bit further and say I can on average get 2 rounds of fire off when I get someone lined up...
    That means with the base weapons you would have a 48.68% chance to land at least one crit in there.

    If you have Crthx2 you have a 65% chance to land a crit. Thats over 15% higher chance every time your weapons cycle TWICE... average that over a match and you will find that CRTH is the clear winner.

    I calculated this with CRTH for one reason... People are going to tell you "ya ya what good is crth if you miss" well parse it and see... spec right have acc trait and run one acc mod and your hit rate will be with in 2% of ACCx3 weapons... and I can tell you the way the game works those 2% hit shots... where at times when your opponent had such high defesne that even the accx3 shooter is NOT getting any crits and for sure not killing anyone.

    Well I have found a well timed attack against even the most skilled player will net you a kill regardless of what tags you have on the weapon. What I am saying is it all comes down to timing. You could have all the crit h and crit d or acc available in the game and it still wouldn't be enough if you don't time that attack. A high crit chance might yield you a faster kill under the same timing but only by fractions of a second... Its all what you want to brag about in the end, whether you did more crit or more damage...

    Personally I would rather take down a skilled opponent with the least amount of crit or damage... Now that says something. What I am saying, is numbers by themselves don't mean a thing. Alot of people go "Look at that damage" or "Look at that healing" or "Look at that crit damage and chance" but have no kills and bunch of deaths. If all that damage or other numbers by themselves didn't do a world of good, its time to rethink the build.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    Well I have found a well timed attack against even the most skilled player will net you a kill regardless of what tags you have on the weapon. What I am saying is it all comes down to timing. You could have all the crit h and crit d or acc available in the game and it still wouldn't be enough if you don't time that attack. A high crit chance might yield you a faster kill under the same timing but only by fractions of a second... Its all what you want to brag about in the end, whether you did more crit or more damage...

    I brag about more KILLS... and thats what crit does for you. Your right of course piloting and smart play will get you that... but having a smart build is also part of it... having burst potential is key... and yes I believe that crth is much more bursty then acc... I am not saying ACC is bad... just that ACCx3 is way overrated.

    Yes I see plenty of accx3 escorts running around all proud of there 1 mil in dmg in a match... what numbers like that really tell me is they have a horrible build. If you can't kill someone in under 60k worth of dmg in an escort your doing it terribly wrong. imo
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I brag about more KILLS... and thats what crit does for you. Your right of course piloting and smart play will get you that... but having a smart build is also part of it... having burst potential is key... and yes I believe that crth is much more bursty then acc... I am not saying ACC is bad... just that ACCx3 is way overrated.

    Yes I see plenty of accx3 escorts running around all proud of there 1 mil in dmg in a match... what numbers like that really tell me is they have a horrible build. If you can't kill someone in under 60k worth of dmg in an escort your doing it terribly wrong. imo

    Well personally, I disagree with you. While I agree crits help, they are not the only deciding factor which is what you seem to be making them out to be. Have I mis-interpreted this?
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  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    And what this discussion boils down to is play style, personal preference. No one way is better than the other. I just would rather make sure I hit my target than to rely on the "chance" to hit and then try to top that off with the "chance" to do massive amounts of crits with damage. In a team setting spamming holds and defense/damage debuffs, I can see the advantage of it, but still, I like to know I am hitting my target and getting the good damage and fair crits than that chance to miss it and my kill...

    If your a gambling type person then yes, Hx3 makes more sense.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    Well personally, I disagree with you. While I agree crits help, they are not the only deciding factor which is what you seem to be making them out to be. Have I mis-interpreted this?

    With healing the way it is right now 9 times out of 10 yes it is a crit string that will kill someone. People don't die in this game with out being the victim of crits unless they really really mess up... are afk... or have been playing for a month. :)

    No I am not saying gear is all important .... frankly I could likely beat most people in this game with green weapons... even considering the dmg buff to purples. Skill trumps gear as always... however if you are selecting the best gear in a min max setup... yes I am saying Critical chance for a tactical is the most important stat you can have. In most MMOs you don't get the crazy number of Swings we get in STO... think about it in many MMOs you see 50-70& crit chances pretty standard... STO you don't you see 10-20% out of a tac... however we get to take 4-20 swings within a 5-10s window... and at that point yes the laws of probability clearly tell us that the tac with 20% crit rate is going to land 8-12 crits out of 20 swings... and the tac that has 10% (and sometimes 12% if the stars align and they get a fat Defense/ACC split) is only going to land 3-6 crits. Even if I stipulated that 20% of the guys shots would miss with out an ACC mod. (which I don't because it would be more like 1 in 20 would miss)... the answer is clear... the guy with close to double the crit rate is going to KILL someone the way the game is right now... and the guy with out is going to watch his target scoot away and heal up.

    Oh my sorry for the wall of text. lol
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Accx3 is extremely overrated. Yes it gives you overflow crth and crtd. NO it is no where near equal.
    I never parsed it but it always seemed like this was true, there have been too many times when I gave my accx3 weapons a try again only to have to evasive away to exit combat and equip CrtHx3 weapons, The overflow really doesn't hlep crit nearly as much as CrtH does otherwise there would be no point in CrtH

    Even if you manage to gets someone into negative defense. (which is pretty much impossible these days vs a non noob)... even then you would be lucky to get an extra 1-2% of crth... and perhaps 10-20% of crtd.... ACC is no replacement for the real thing.

    Stick with your CRTHx3... they do far more dmg then CRTD... which imo is still a pretty much useless stat.

    Mostly these days I run... [acc] [crth]x2... as when you DO crit your sevarity will be effected by Acc/Def ratings... you get a pretty good natural ACC with full spec and Acc captain trait... having the extra 20 from accx3... IS NOT worth the lose of 4% crit hit.

    I haven't been using any acc mods, have acc trait max targeting and omega deflector, seems to hit enough.

    basicly with one ACC mod and proper spec you will land hits so that won't be an issue... and the overage difference +20 will give you would in an absolute best scenario might be an extra .75% or so.

    CRTD... last I tested it is pretty much junk... what it does is provid 10% stronger crits (overall)... as the 20% in provides is 20% of the CRITICAL dmg. Meaning if you where to land a perfect 1000... if it crit it would be 1500... if you have CRTDx3 it would be 1800... that is hardly worth the trade in crit... or acc.
    it does seem like the DHC innate severity, the severity bonus from borg and tachykinetic console, and from max energy weapon specializiations make my DHC still crit pretty hard and a lot I think I will stick with this

    Excellent post, best advise so far, I think you are right from what I have experienced, and you have tested it to back up my suspicions, thanks. Responses in red.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    And what this discussion boils down to is play style, personal preference. No one way is better than the other. I just would rather make sure I hit my target than to rely on the "chance" to hit and then try to top that off with the "chance" to do massive amounts of crits with damage. In a team setting spamming holds and defense/damage debuffs, I can see the advantage of it, but still, I like to know I am hitting my target and getting the good damage and fair crits than that chance to miss it and my kill...

    If your a gambling type person then yes, Hx3 makes more sense.

    Thats my point... its not a gamble.

    1) go do some proper parsing... with a captain with ACC trait and 9 points in the skill tree... the hit to miss ratio is with in a few % points of the same captain running ACCx3 weapons.

    2) 1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) ... is a good standard probability formula that will tell you how often you will crit when you take multiple tries. (again consider that STO we don't fire ONE weapons we fire 4 at a time)... which means 2% is a BIG BIG number in terms of real world performance.....
    Using 1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) think of it this way....

    4 shots
    2% crit rate = 7.76% chance to land 1 crit in the volley
    4% crit rate = 15.07% chance to land 1 crit in the volley
    6% crit rate = 21.92% chance to land 1 crit in the volley

    Just for real world numbers with my [acc][crth]x2 weapons... EVERY SINGLE volley I fire I have a 55% chance to land a crit. EVERY Volley. I can tell you thats pretty accurate as well.

    That is hardly gambling anymore.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    blznfun wrote: »
    I agree to a point, but then again I have never used tractors in my build to stop targets. I always end up with a higher crit or damage chance but my actual damage seems to go down according to ACT because of the miss factor. Maybe I am missing something here, but I have been using the same version of this build since open beta and I have a pretty nice success rate with it. If I am fighting someone that I want to go down and I have the right assistance, it works wonders. But then again you can't go at a skilled team alone anyways. It doesn't matter what you have as some like to think...

    I try to have at least 1 Tb slotted, and 2xTB for my Sci. The obvious is it can drop a target's defensive rating by a lot and pins the target to expose 1 shield facing.

    Less obvious is the defensive utility in terms of positional advantage allowing me to get out of high dps arcs. I play KDF and it also helps to create a distance, if evasives happens to be on cooldown, from me and the incoming damage. If a team gets too much seperation it can also be helpful to keep support pinned at a distance.

    I currently use 3xCritH on 3 DHCs and a 2xAcc 1xCritD on a 4th DHC. I use Vet ship in Tactical mode which has a boost to targeting in addition to Omega Deflector (though Fleet deflectors give this out as well). I know I give up pressure DPS based on the misses I see, so I'd probably be better of w/Accx1 and CritHx2 if I wanted a more pressure oriented DPS. But, for spiking if/when I get Romulan Boffs then I'd think CritD would be better for my playstyle.

    Your playstyle is different and I can see where if you do not have way to lower a target's defensive rating you'd prefer Accx3. I just don't think there's a cut and dry answer.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • blznfunblznfun Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    With healing the way it is right now 9 times out of 10 yes it is a crit string that will kill someone. People don't die in this game with out being the victim of crits unless they really really mess up... are afk... or have been playing for a month. :)

    No I am not saying gear is all important .... frankly I could likely beat most people in this game with green weapons... even considering the dmg buff to purples. Skill trumps gear as always... however if you are selecting the best gear in a min max setup... yes I am saying Critical chance for a tactical is the most important stat you can have. In most MMOs you don't get the crazy number of Swings we get in STO... think about it in many MMOs you see 50-70& crit chances pretty standard... STO you don't you see 10-20% out of a tac... however we get to take 4-20 swings within a 5-10s window... and at that point yes the laws of probability clearly tell us that the tac with 20% crit rate is going to land 8-12 crits out of 20 swings... and the tac that has 10% (and sometimes 12% if the stars align and they get a fat Defense/ACC split) is only going to land 3-6 crits. Even if I stipulated that 20% of the guys shots would miss with out an ACC mod. (which I don't because it would be more like 1 in 20 would miss)... the answer is clear... the guy with close to double the crit rate is going to KILL someone the way the game is right now... and the guy with out is going to watch his target scoot away and heal up.

    Oh my sorry for the wall of text. lol

    I get your point. We are arguing the same point (I think). But in a team setting, focus firing, I just don't see the need when it comes down to fractions of a second anyways especially when the target is spam held and sub-nuked with the other team in shambles.

    If you happen to single out your target and your team is solely relying on you to kill that target, then I can definitely see the advantages if you land those hits successfully...
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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    If you're really using a TB, you never need anything but CritD.

    You can never increase your acc as significantly as you can decrease someones defense.

    And you already know that you never miss once you've nailed someone down with TB.

    So. Just think for a sec. Is any amount of acc overflow just from the acc mod on your weapons as significant as straight up CritH? No of course not, it never is. And now your looking at it at it at the lowest its incremental value can be and that is when the variance between your acc and thier def is at its highest. In otherwords, you've already piled on HUGE amounts of acc overflow. So that Crit H may not even be that helpful anymore. Even at the dismal rates that acc overflow converts to Crit H, you're piling huge amounts of it on. How much better can your chances of critting get?

    Not very much. So you take Crit D.

    Unless your NOT using a TB and your NOT using BO3. That case you're on your own.

    EDIT: You can get anyone in this game into negative defense. It isn't exactly a difficult task.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I brag about more KILLS... and thats what crit does for you. Your right of course piloting and smart play will get you that... but having a smart build is also part of it... having burst potential is key... and yes I believe that crth is much more bursty then acc... I am not saying ACC is bad... just that ACCx3 is way overrated.

    Yes I see plenty of accx3 escorts running around all proud of there 1 mil in dmg in a match... what numbers like that really tell me is they have a horrible build. If you can't kill someone in under 60k worth of dmg in an escort your doing it terribly wrong. imo

    Since going to all CritH I notice sometimes my overall damage in my defiant or BOP is lower then with my accx3 weapons, but my kills are higher and my deaths are lower due to spending less time wearing a target down and just spiking them quickly. I am especially noticing this big time in my BOP since it uses a more of a spike build then in my defiant with 2 DHC 1 DBB 1 torp on my BOP rather then 3 DHC 1 torp on my defiant.

    Also I am noticing that in matches where someone else on my team is in a 4 DHC bugship and I am in my BOP spiker I often end up with around 2/3 of their total damage after a match but with more kills due to them spending more time dogfighting and me just decloaking tractoring and spiking. I think with the BO3 and HY3 quantums it often ends up around 50-70k damage when they die if I kill them all on my own.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    thissler wrote: »
    If you're really using a TB, you never need anything but CritD.

    You can never increase your acc as significantly as you can decrease someones defense.

    And you already know that you never miss once you've nailed someone down with TB.

    So. Just think for a sec. Is any amount of acc overflow just from the acc mod on your weapons as significant as straight up CritH? No of course not, it never is. And now your looking at it at it at the lowest its incremental value can be and that is when the variance between your acc and thier def is at its highest. In otherwords, you've already piled on HUGE amounts of acc overflow. So that Crit H may not even be that helpful anymore. Even at the dismal rates that acc overflow converts to Crit H, you're piling huge amounts of it on. How much better can your chances of critting get?

    Not very much. So you take Crit D.

    Unless your NOT using a TB and your NOT using BO3. That case you're on your own.

    I notice my CrtHx3 DBB with BO3 is often critting for 30k-50k which if doesn't kill them outright the high yield quantums do. I think it would help a lot for cruisers that can sometimes survive all that.

    I am not sure how the formula works but even if their defense is 0 when tractored and I have acc overflow I still don't have anywhere near 100% crit chance right?

    So on most targets that I can normally kill with crits without any CrtD mods the CrtHx3 would still be useful in helping ensure I crit as much as possible, and the CrtD weapons with stronger crits would only really help me with stronger targets like an Oddy or Recluse?

    Anyway thanks for your perspective, I mostly built my bop similar to yours so will test CrtD on it.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    It's not unheard of for Escorts to have over 40k hull. Add in 50% resists hull and 75% resists shields, imo you'd be better w/CritD depending on what your crit rate is. There a TRIBBLE ton a boost to CritH anymore, though I can see w/a BO build you'd want CritH maxed for that, but CritD for Cannons.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Nom Nom Nom.

    Such tasty and useful info from "antoniosalieri."

    When someone asks about weapon mods, I will point them to this thread.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    @marc8219

    As far as Acc, CrtD and CritH it all comes down to playstyle. Everyone is slightly different in how they build the ship and how they control it. You can give 2 people identical builds and they will preform different and they may improve with different tweaks. Now that you have the information it is best to find out what works best for you since the thread is turning from informational to a debate as most of these threads do.

    The scenario debate usually end out splitting hairs. Usually a properly built team will address these issues assuming you can build on each others strengths and needs.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I got a CrtDx3 DBB just a little earlier and will keep that and my CrtHx3 DBB in my inventory and switch each one out every now and then and see what works better for my style. I have a feeling it will not only depend on my style but might also depend on the target, whether it is a tank or sci ship, or escort. We will see.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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