I was going to post this in the other lockbox thread here, but felt it was worth it's own topic.
So, from a PvP standpoint, what do you feel is the worst and least worst things that is gonna come out of the new Dominion lockbox?
To me, I'd have to say the Phased Polarons are gonna be the worst. I mean, the two best procs in the game for PvE AND PvP (IMO) in one weapon? Drain a ton of power, and then a chance to disable something on top of that?
Suddenly, your weapons don't hit as hard, you are moving slower, your heals are weaker, and your shields aren't taking hits or getting any regen, AND then on top of that, one of those gets disabled.
And that isn't even including the zillion other energy drain and disable abilities we can use on top of that.
So while I don't deny the new Jem'hader ships (WHY does the heavy escort have a hangar?) aren't something I look forward to, we don't know their exact details as of yet. So those are still technically up in the air for the time being. But the Phased Polarons? We all know exactly what those do individually, and how potent they can be; now they will be together in one weapon.
(If you like polarons, you'd better buy the consoles NOW before they go up too much in price; or rather more than they are already.)
On the other end, I don't feel the console swap is that much of an issue. I mean, Feds are getting Bioneural Warhead, which I like as a fun toy...but that's kinda all to me. I love getting a crit on it, because all it's little shots auto-crit when you do.
KDF is getting Nadeon Detonator, which I can't wait, but it still has all the normal shortcomings of a cheese console. It's a good console though. I can't wait to start using my B'rel as even more of a potent torpedo boat.
The DOFFs are kind of hit and miss. Some of them are more PvE focused, but there's a couple of noteworthy ones. The biggest one probably being the SS DOFF, due to the fact that you can use that with SNB DOFFs and/or normal SNB to really mess up someone's BOFFs.
That's the biggest things to me atm about this. The Jem'hader consoles could be trouble, but I'd rather know the exact details first of the other ships and the consoles before I decide.
Also, I think at this point folks, 'drain builds' are NOT KDF exclusive anymore. There's way too many things nowadays to allow a Fed player a drain build even without siphon drones. (Heck, just think of the Jem'hader ships with siphon drones when they come out).
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If The lockbox phased polarons are like the quest rewards, they will be polaron and tetryon proc. Can't say I look foward to going up against shield and power drain builds with this tet glider and other shield/power drains.
Main thing I am interested in would be the mirror Voquv if it has more engineering then the current one.
My worst fear is, that STO will be full of dominion ships on both sides and that the "simple" starfleet and KDF designs will be made obsolete. I hated bug so much, now there will be bug, bug with fighters, and bug with even more fighters. Together with phased lolaron spam and other trash, PvP will be really great..NOT.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I'm really conflicted... on the one hand I'm a giant Dom fanboy and I kinda wish Cryptic would just port everything over to a Dom faction and get it over with. On the other hand, PvP basically has nothing to do with Starfleet/KDF at this point and the amount of ships with inexplicable hangar bays is reaching the truly absurd.
If The lockbox phased polarons are like the quest rewards, they will be polaron and tetryon proc. Can't say I look foward to going up against shield and power drain builds with this tet glider and other shield/power drains.
Main thing I am interested in would be the mirror Voquv if it has more engineering then the current one.
They renamed the reward ones... I think its pretty safe to say these are polaron weapons with phaser procs.
We now have phased polaron and phased tetryon.... I would still say from a pure dmg stand point the Polarized Disruptors will still be king.
Ya these new ones will be very annoying when they proc.
Look at the Fleet Defiant. Look at the Fleet Armitage. Look at the Bug. Look at the Heavy Bug Carrier.
Least worst?
Mirror Advanced/Mirror Patrol Escorts. (Notice I didn't include the Mirror Vo'quv.) Like other Fed Mirror ships, they're likely to be next to free on the Exchange in a short period of time.
Honorable Mention
Bio-Neural.
When I brought it up back on 12/15, it led to a discussion about why the Feds wouldn't get it. I figured they would still do it - retooling it, so it would not upset the Federation's delicate sensibilities about such things. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7103791
I tried to make the case that the Breen Sarr Theln Warship Carrier would be unlikely for the Dominion Lockbox because of the number of carriers that had been added already last year.
So I was wrong, kind of...nope, they didn't add the Sarr Theln. Not because they have added so many carriers to the game, but because they added two Dominion carriers and a Mirror Vo'quv...ahem, lol. Lol? Meh...
Future Speculation
The Breen Box.
Sarr Theln Carrier.
Breen "Capital Ship" (weaker version of the Rezreth).
Mirror Defiant and Mirror Negh'Var.
Deferi Transport.
Fed Leech or Aceton? KDF Ionized (retooled) or Grappler?
Breen Cryogas console.
Breen Trans Booster console.
(2pc and 3pc sets with the BED).
Breen ground set.
Various Breen and Deferi DOFFs that do things people couldn't have imagined.
Etc, etc, etc.
What other boxes could be lurking out there? Iconian? Borg? Romulan?
What's going to happen to box reruns when they up the level cap?
I think this unlikely. How many bug ships do you see? I have two and rarely fly them, preferring the Excelsior on my main. People win them and then move on so they are no longer in the game whereas Fed ships are awarded all the time as players level up and so Sol is mostly always populated with fed ships.
Excuse me, but we are in pvp forum...do you think I was talking about the ship composition outside of Sol spacedock ? :rolleyes:
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
I just mentioned Sol because we all go there and it is the largest congregation of ships in the game. I don't see many bug ships in kerrat or the Arenas tbh, and there's no need to be sarcastic.
In my experience, it's pretty rare to be in an arena without a bug. It's superior across the board to other escorts, with it's only deficiency being that it only has one science slot (which is not much of a deficiency). If you have access to a bug, there is no reason to use a fed escort or a raptor.
Outside of PvP they are a lot less common, but features like the high turn rate and high speed are not nearly as important when fighting NPCs, so it doesn't outshine every other escort so dramatically.
I wasn't thinking creatively when I thought about my worst...
Dread Bug Carrier
2pc Dom set
KHG set
ASDs
AA
Phaser Polarons
"Dominion Coordination Protocol console. This universal console will allow the use of a powerful attack pattern known as ?Fleet Maneuver Gamma? which increases the damage, flight speed and maneuverability of all nearby allies while granting them temporary immunity to a wide variety of perception and maneuverability debuffs."
"Dominion Command Interface console which can analyze a target?s weaknesses and broadcast that information to all nearby allies. The enemy afflicted with this weakness will find their damage resistance and defense diminished, while also having a single subsystem flagged as Vulnerable. If enough damage is dealt to the target while under this affect, the vulnerable subsystem will be knocked offline for several seconds. When equipped in conjunction with the Dominion Coordination Protocol, it enhances ?Fleet Maneuver Gamma? with additional effects, including a boost to allies? defense and accuracy."
Just waiting at this point till they rename this game to Carriers Online .
And its sad when purple stuff makes me sad .
You mean dominion online :P they just need to add dominion healer cruiser with a hangar, and the circle will be completed.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
THE WORST: Two new consoles that can be equipped on the Jem Hadar Attack Ship. Suddenly, I envision that PvP teams are going to roll 3-4 jem hadar ships deep as a requirement to keep rolling Attack Pattern Gamma's up. On top of that, it further unbalances the Jem Hadar escorts from the Federation and Klingon escorts. Where the Jem Hadar ship was superior in every statistical catagory, a case could be made that it didn't have a special console that the others did. Now it will have two.
This will result in one of two bad things:
1) At top level PvP play where skill is high across the board, the Jem'Hadar ships will become an unspoken requirement if a team plans to be successful.
2) The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship (long on the fine line between overpowered and broken, but leaning to just the overpowered side) will finally cross the line where we accept it is simply too powerful, and provides an unfair advantage in tournament play. The result will be that it is banned from most tournaments.
The long raging debate has been how powerful the BUG is. People who have it claim that it's fine, people who don't recognize how amazing it is. With the consoles, people flying it are now going to have to accept the criticism they receive for flying what will be the ultimate Pay-to-Win ship.
To wrap up why this is the worst move they could have made: They can't fix this without outraging the game. We can see how clearly unbalanced this will be, but to fix this after the fact would enrage an huge population of players who spent a great deal of real money to obtain these Jem'Hadar super ships. The next chance to balance them won't come until the next tier of ships. For the time being, it will further the divide between the "haves" and "have nots", and will cause more players to avoid PvP rather than enrich it.
LEAST WORST: New carriers. I don't see these as so much of a problem as others do, apparently. This could be completely negated by an overpowered Jem Hadar Attack Wing fighter pet that is given something stupid like SNB (we're all expecting it, admit it).
This is going to be Cryptic's best lockbox yet for sales. It gives the middle finger to the PvP community, whilst all at the same time FORCING us to buy it in bulk. We will be the people hating it the most, and scooping it up all at the same time.
It's all pretty much explained by this key semi-apology slipped in halfway through the blurb:
It should come as no surprise that a great number of the developers here at Cryptic Studios count Deep Space Nine episodes among their favorite Star Trek series ...
The console in particular sounds terribly unbalanced on paper and even worse, it's a direct form of pay-to-win. The barriers to fielding such a console successfully are quite immense, meaning only the wealthiest teams can take them into the queues.
Worse is that I feel the whole pvp bootcamp becomes heavily undermined by the lockbox. We at bootcamp are trying to balance and learn basics by playing fair and just. Cryptic claim to help and bless the bootcamp for its purpose, but this lockbox just screams hyporcrisy.This TRIBBLE lockbox, fueled by sheer greed and lust for money is ruining pvp further. Even the scramble sensor doff has no use in pve whatsoever, and certainly meant for pvp.
Why cryptic and PWE why???
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Well, you cannot expect that they fix the profitable error without getting money from other places? And if Cryptic can get money both from rep system and "fix" from it...
I have a feeling that the two great new consoles and the bug's ability to equip them is going to be a great news for PvP community. NOT.
I'm looking forward to the mirror VoQuv. My kdf engi flies one as a drain build in a support role. Although, admittedly, the current voquv layout is working pretty good for me.
More spam means that it's even harder to select targets that you actually want to, other than that, I'm not overly concerned about the Jem ships which themselves will likely not be anymore onerous than the carrier/carrier hybrids we already have.
My WTF bullseyes are as follows:
A console that provides localized bonuses to self and allies in the form of weaker Attack Pattern: Omega by boosting allies with Damage, Maneuverability, Flight Speed, Movement Debuff Immunity, and Perception Reduction Immunity; to which when its sister console is added, all allies also gain enhanced Accuracy and Defense scores, slotable on the best escort in the game.
The sister to the console above which marks a target with reduced Damage Resistance, reduced Defense Score, and a subsystem that can be disabled by simply dealing lots of damage to it, also slotable on the best escort in the game, one which happens to have 5 tactical consoles putting it in a 3-way tie for the highest DPS ship in the game.
New hybrid weapons which combine probably the strongest console-boosted debuff proc in the game (Polaron's energy level debuff) with the single best one-off weapon proc in the game (Phaser's subsystem Disable).
On the topic of Jem Attack Ship hangar pets having Sub-nuc, it's highly unlikely they will as sometime back they removed that ability in PvE from the bugships, leaving it on the Heavy Escorts and Dreadnoughts.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
The ships stats arent even out yet, nor even in the game to get tested, and people are already complaining about it.
Of course, because what has already happen once, will happen again, especially with the same ship "balance" dev...the one whos name should not be spoken.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Least Worst: Super cheap Mirror s'corts to throw at new people.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is already in the game, and it's been plenty tested and acknowledged as the best ship in the game.
Lets introduce 2 special consoles it can use!
We don't need to wait to know this is going to be a problem.
I said this in the lockbox thread, but I'll say it here too.
I don't have a bug, and I don't intend to ever get one.
With that said, I'm not all that too concerned about a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship equipping these two consoles.
The ship has 10 consoles. Half of which are most likely going to have 5 tactical consoles. There are three universal consoles that are pretty much must haves (Zero-Point Energy Conduit, Assimilated Module, and Tachyokinetic Converter). That leaves two consoles for them to play around with.
If they put the two new Dominion consoles on their ship, they are giving up passive consoles for ability consoles that will have a fairly long cooldown. I think this will affect their survivability. Granted, a full team with a mix of these consoles could be a problem. But, really, what coordinated team spamming the same ability isn't a problem? Just like everything else, it's not overpowered on it's own. It's when the entire team spams it that it becomes a problem.
As for the phased polaron weapons getting both phaser and polaron weapon types, I'm not all that big a fan of hybrid weapons. You sacrifice a modifier for having two procs. I slapped an Embassy Science console with power insulators and plasma DOT. I gave my phasers a plasma proc without sacrificing a modifier, and I gained more resistance to drains.
If I were to complain about the worst thing about the lockboxes, I'd say the Scramble Sensor DOFF.
Comments
Main thing I am interested in would be the mirror Voquv if it has more engineering then the current one.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
They renamed the reward ones... I think its pretty safe to say these are polaron weapons with phaser procs.
We now have phased polaron and phased tetryon.... I would still say from a pure dmg stand point the Polarized Disruptors will still be king.
Ya these new ones will be very annoying when they proc.
It's basically all the things we don't need in PVP rolled up and stuffed into the lockbox.
From a looks standpoint, the Heavy Escort Carrier and Dreadnought look awesome.
sums it up nicely
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Look at the Fleet Defiant. Look at the Fleet Armitage. Look at the Bug. Look at the Heavy Bug Carrier.
Least worst?
Mirror Advanced/Mirror Patrol Escorts. (Notice I didn't include the Mirror Vo'quv.) Like other Fed Mirror ships, they're likely to be next to free on the Exchange in a short period of time.
Honorable Mention
Bio-Neural.
When I brought it up back on 12/15, it led to a discussion about why the Feds wouldn't get it. I figured they would still do it - retooling it, so it would not upset the Federation's delicate sensibilities about such things. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7103791
I Was Wrong, Kind Of
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=485671
I tried to make the case that the Breen Sarr Theln Warship Carrier would be unlikely for the Dominion Lockbox because of the number of carriers that had been added already last year.
So I was wrong, kind of...nope, they didn't add the Sarr Theln. Not because they have added so many carriers to the game, but because they added two Dominion carriers and a Mirror Vo'quv...ahem, lol. Lol? Meh...
Future Speculation
The Breen Box.
Sarr Theln Carrier.
Breen "Capital Ship" (weaker version of the Rezreth).
Mirror Defiant and Mirror Negh'Var.
Deferi Transport.
Fed Leech or Aceton? KDF Ionized (retooled) or Grappler?
Breen Cryogas console.
Breen Trans Booster console.
(2pc and 3pc sets with the BED).
Breen ground set.
Various Breen and Deferi DOFFs that do things people couldn't have imagined.
Etc, etc, etc.
What other boxes could be lurking out there? Iconian? Borg? Romulan?
What's going to happen to box reruns when they up the level cap?
Yep, STO's future: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
/cough
Excuse me, but we are in pvp forum...do you think I was talking about the ship composition outside of Sol spacedock ? :rolleyes:
Outside of PvP they are a lot less common, but features like the high turn rate and high speed are not nearly as important when fighting NPCs, so it doesn't outshine every other escort so dramatically.
Dread Bug Carrier
2pc Dom set
KHG set
ASDs
AA
Phaser Polarons
"Dominion Coordination Protocol console. This universal console will allow the use of a powerful attack pattern known as ?Fleet Maneuver Gamma? which increases the damage, flight speed and maneuverability of all nearby allies while granting them temporary immunity to a wide variety of perception and maneuverability debuffs."
"Dominion Command Interface console which can analyze a target?s weaknesses and broadcast that information to all nearby allies. The enemy afflicted with this weakness will find their damage resistance and defense diminished, while also having a single subsystem flagged as Vulnerable. If enough damage is dealt to the target while under this affect, the vulnerable subsystem will be knocked offline for several seconds. When equipped in conjunction with the Dominion Coordination Protocol, it enhances ?Fleet Maneuver Gamma? with additional effects, including a boost to allies? defense and accuracy."
Pets...allies.
And its sad when purple stuff makes me sad .
You mean dominion online :P they just need to add dominion healer cruiser with a hangar, and the circle will be completed.
This will result in one of two bad things:
1) At top level PvP play where skill is high across the board, the Jem'Hadar ships will become an unspoken requirement if a team plans to be successful.
2) The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship (long on the fine line between overpowered and broken, but leaning to just the overpowered side) will finally cross the line where we accept it is simply too powerful, and provides an unfair advantage in tournament play. The result will be that it is banned from most tournaments.
The long raging debate has been how powerful the BUG is. People who have it claim that it's fine, people who don't recognize how amazing it is. With the consoles, people flying it are now going to have to accept the criticism they receive for flying what will be the ultimate Pay-to-Win ship.
To wrap up why this is the worst move they could have made: They can't fix this without outraging the game. We can see how clearly unbalanced this will be, but to fix this after the fact would enrage an huge population of players who spent a great deal of real money to obtain these Jem'Hadar super ships. The next chance to balance them won't come until the next tier of ships. For the time being, it will further the divide between the "haves" and "have nots", and will cause more players to avoid PvP rather than enrich it.
LEAST WORST: New carriers. I don't see these as so much of a problem as others do, apparently. This could be completely negated by an overpowered Jem Hadar Attack Wing fighter pet that is given something stupid like SNB (we're all expecting it, admit it).
This is going to be Cryptic's best lockbox yet for sales. It gives the middle finger to the PvP community, whilst all at the same time FORCING us to buy it in bulk. We will be the people hating it the most, and scooping it up all at the same time.
Hooray...
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
The console in particular sounds terribly unbalanced on paper and even worse, it's a direct form of pay-to-win. The barriers to fielding such a console successfully are quite immense, meaning only the wealthiest teams can take them into the queues.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Why cryptic and PWE why???
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Is it only me, or does it look like payed "fix" for all those placates?
What? A "fix" only for the rich and lucky? Do I really need to suck it up to MTPony again?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
I'm looking forward to the mirror VoQuv. My kdf engi flies one as a drain build in a support role. Although, admittedly, the current voquv layout is working pretty good for me.
Elite Defense Stovokor
My WTF bullseyes are as follows:
A console that provides localized bonuses to self and allies in the form of weaker Attack Pattern: Omega by boosting allies with Damage, Maneuverability, Flight Speed, Movement Debuff Immunity, and Perception Reduction Immunity; to which when its sister console is added, all allies also gain enhanced Accuracy and Defense scores, slotable on the best escort in the game.
The sister to the console above which marks a target with reduced Damage Resistance, reduced Defense Score, and a subsystem that can be disabled by simply dealing lots of damage to it, also slotable on the best escort in the game, one which happens to have 5 tactical consoles putting it in a 3-way tie for the highest DPS ship in the game.
New hybrid weapons which combine probably the strongest console-boosted debuff proc in the game (Polaron's energy level debuff) with the single best one-off weapon proc in the game (Phaser's subsystem Disable).
On the topic of Jem Attack Ship hangar pets having Sub-nuc, it's highly unlikely they will as sometime back they removed that ability in PvE from the bugships, leaving it on the Heavy Escorts and Dreadnoughts.
Of course, because what has already happen once, will happen again, especially with the same ship "balance" dev...the one whos name should not be spoken.
The Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is already in the game, and it's been plenty tested and acknowledged as the best ship in the game.
Lets introduce 2 special consoles it can use!
We don't need to wait to know this is going to be a problem.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Least Worst: Super cheap Mirror s'corts to throw at new people.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I don't have a bug, and I don't intend to ever get one.
With that said, I'm not all that too concerned about a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship equipping these two consoles.
The ship has 10 consoles. Half of which are most likely going to have 5 tactical consoles. There are three universal consoles that are pretty much must haves (Zero-Point Energy Conduit, Assimilated Module, and Tachyokinetic Converter). That leaves two consoles for them to play around with.
If they put the two new Dominion consoles on their ship, they are giving up passive consoles for ability consoles that will have a fairly long cooldown. I think this will affect their survivability. Granted, a full team with a mix of these consoles could be a problem. But, really, what coordinated team spamming the same ability isn't a problem? Just like everything else, it's not overpowered on it's own. It's when the entire team spams it that it becomes a problem.
As for the phased polaron weapons getting both phaser and polaron weapon types, I'm not all that big a fan of hybrid weapons. You sacrifice a modifier for having two procs. I slapped an Embassy Science console with power insulators and plasma DOT. I gave my phasers a plasma proc without sacrificing a modifier, and I gained more resistance to drains.
If I were to complain about the worst thing about the lockboxes, I'd say the Scramble Sensor DOFF.