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Buff torpedoes: yay or nay?

bobtheyakbobtheyak Member Posts: 374 Arc User
edited February 2013 in PvP Gameplay
This is mainly regarding 'regular' (non-heavy) torpedoes i.e. quantum, photon, chroniton, etc.

One can argue that torpedo hybrid builds have the capacity to do slightly more damage than full energy builds, but consider the amount of skill points needed to make them effective. Is the damage difference really worth the investment?

A full energy build can generally do comparable damage to a hybrid build, but the points that would have gone into projectiles can be used for survivability and/or build efficiency.

A buff to torpedoes might give more burst damage to cruisers/sci ships who choose to use them and possibly narrow the dps gap between escorts and non-escorts without swaying the balance between ship types too much.

Currently I'm thinking an increase in torpedo crit chance/base damage would be a step in the right direction (the amount of increase is up for debate), but it's also been suggested that they do more damage to shields.

Could a torpedo buff have any unintended consequences in PvP? The PvEbears would probably love it regardless.

Voice your opinions, go!
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Comments

  • mrgrocer56mrgrocer56 Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I could agree with that. I am all for more variety.
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Not sure if it would be within the reach of the Systems team to come up wiht a buff, that doesn't favor tac/scorts even more, ala finally that Defiant ensign is good for something (HYT1/TS1). I think that Beams and Sci abilities are more of an issues then naked torps, or mines.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I would vote for more dmg to sheilds.

    A change like that wouldn't effect pve.. where the big stuff don't have shields... or looses them in the first 4 seconds anyway. So we wouldn't all of a sudden have 60k quantum critz taking out gates.

    Of course for pvp if torps where allowed to apply another 20-40% of there dmg to shields, they would be a viable alt to Overloads for spike. In fact perhaps they would be a standard weapon on ALL ships as they wouldn't be subject to some of the silly shield resist values specific to one weapon type thanks to brain dead fleet shields, and crazy resist numbers on macos ect.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Part of the problem with torps is the very low base firing rate. Even with a buff to their native shield damage, the justification for taking one is predicated on their potential for burst to raw hull. In practice, finding the right moment to have both your buffs (incl. torp skills) and a torp ready to spit into a breach is exceedingly difficult. Without some way of negotiating that difficulty they'd still be niche.
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  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Burst/spike damage has it's uses, and I will not budge on that. I still miss the way Quantum torpedoes used to hit back around the initial launch of the game. They were bad@ss! :cool: So yeah, I could certainly stand to see torpedo damage boosted.
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  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited January 2013
    I would be interested in seeing the potential effects of torpedoes dealing more damage to shields. Is there is a way to do that without boosting the torpedo damage itself? Would it be possible for torpedo damage to scale with shield resistance? Would it be possible for torpedo damage to scale with shield percentage? Can it be done without giving the appearance of being such a one sided buff to tactical captains? Can it be done without marginalizing Transphasic weapons?

    Torpedoes are a beautiful thing when they can catch a slice of naked hull. I don't want them to become the new cheese because a well intended (and rightly deserved) buff went too far.
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  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    stevehale wrote: »
    I would be interested in seeing the potential effects of torpedoes dealing more damage to shields. Is there is a way to do that without boosting the torpedo damage itself? Would it be possible for torpedo damage to scale with shield resistance? Would it be possible for torpedo damage to scale with shield percentage? Can it be done without giving the appearance of being such a one sided buff to tactical captains? Can it be done without marginalizing Transphasic weapons?

    Torpedoes are a beautiful thing when they can catch a slice of naked hull. I don't want them to become the new cheese because a well intended (and rightly deserved) buff went too far.

    Cryptic would have to change shield kinetic damage mitigation to make torpedoes more effective against shields. The other option is to give torpedoes two damage components -- one energy, the other kinetic. The energy component would deal more damage to shields, while kinetic damage deals more vs. hull. The first option would be easier to implement.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    No, they should remain as is. If you want to do more damage, then time them properly on an open shield facing. Yeah I know it's hard, but that's why you have people on your team to help you with maximizing your opportunities to hit that open facing.

    I've never had an issue with torps. Sometimes they work, other times they don't. That's fine for me.

    Being able to just lazily HY a facing down with no timing would ruin torps for me.
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  • guriphuguriphu Member Posts: 494 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Perhaps torpedoes could be configured to ignore up to 1000 hit points worth of shields before hitting the hull, so that their role as weapons that you time against a downed shield facing would be retained, but they wouldn't be completely invalidated by redistributing shields.
  • bobtheyakbobtheyak Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    snoge00f wrote: »
    No, they should remain as is. If you want to do more damage, then time them properly on an open shield facing. Yeah I know it's hard, but that's why you have people on your team to help you with maximizing your opportunities to hit that open facing.

    The original post assumes the torpedoes are already timed properly. The point is to address the heavy skill point investment it takes to use them.
  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    guriphu wrote: »
    Perhaps torpedoes could be configured to ignore up to 1000 hit points worth of shields before hitting the hull, so that their role as weapons that you time against a downed shield facing would be retained, but they wouldn't be completely invalidated by redistributing shields.

    Agreed. It has never sat well with me that a tiny sliver of remaining shield strength can still almost completely nullify torpedo damage.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    torpedoes need to only do -25% damage to shields, not -75%. they wouldn't ONLY have use on tac escorts/bops attempting an alpha stirke insta kill. cause thats basically the only useful situation you can use them in, in game. in trek they spit them out like they were going out of style at anything, shields or not. its a poor game mechanic that serves no purpose and makes them useful in only a single build style. not counting tranny and plasma bleed and dot builds.
  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I think torps could use a look. There've been nice things that've happened to them over the last year. Projectile DOff's, buffed shield pen on Transphasics, Chroniton movement debuff can actually be resisted by AP:O... but this has had some pretty ugly effects, too.

    Photon torpedos have become, essentially, *even* worse Quantums. They never realistically fire faster than you'd be able to get the many times more powerful Quantums to, and for spiking are, naturally, second-rate and thoroughly unappealing. It's also painfully slow under the effects of high-yield. Honestly? There's no niche it fills not filled by some other torpedo.

    Transphasic torps are mostly in a good place, though having their shield pen nerfed when used with torp powers is kind of a drag. A whole-hog buffed Breen Cluster Torpedo can do utterly devastating damage. As an amusing anecdote, when helping Renimelt test a piece of software I critted his BFI+125 Aux Aux2SIF 3 resistance capped Oddy and took 2/3rd's of his hull clean through his shields.

    Chronitons put the brakes on people. They're awesome when spec'ing Graviton Generators without ever really needing to spec torps, and as another plus, it's easier than [mom joke] to get bonuses to Graviton Generators.

    Plasma Torps... oh goodness plasma torps. You connect 'em with bare hull and they hurt. You connect 'em with shields... and they hurt. You can buff their burns without ever spec'ing into torps (AFAIK, the burns are buffed by the Energy Weapons skill).

    Quantum torps are, basically, still quantum torps. They hit, they crit, you die if they touch hull at an inopportune moment.

    Tricobalt Torps picked up a nifty trick when used with the Nadeon Detonator console, but are otherwise the same old gambler's weapon. Somewhat difficult to connect with amazing pay off, and a nice bit of built-in crowd control.

    To be honest, I don't think torpedos in general need much buffs outside the maligned Photon Torpedo, in terms of raw performance. The usability of launchers, though, need to be made more compatible with Fed Snoozers (< turn than Excelsior) if the game's design goals want us mounting fore and aft torps for more than canon flavoring. Unless we're all supposed to be flying mine layers.
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  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bobtheyak wrote: »
    The original post assumes the torpedoes are already timed properly. The point is to address the heavy skill point investment it takes to use them.

    What heavy skill point investment? All of my characters are specced into projectiles and don't suffer in their other skills, even my Eng Healers have it on the off chance I choose to slot one.

    Only my Escort Cannon/Torp ships spec into the "torp specialization" skill, and it doesn't gimp them either. I even have Raider builds that cover all bases.

    Anyhow, I don't see an need to buff them at all. They work fine for me in my intended application.

    If they get buffed, so be it. ;) I like them being hard to use, it makes it more satisfying when you do land them.
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  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    To be honest, I don't think torpedos in general need much buffs outside the maligned Photon Torpedo, in terms of raw performance.

    Now that's something I do agree with. Almost no one uses Photons, because Quantums are just so much better.

    Meh, I'd be happy if they were all functionally the same with just different visuals, effects, and sounds.
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  • phantomeightphantomeight Member Posts: 567 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2013
    They need to change the way they work with shields. I am tired of a shield facing having like 100 shield HP and the torp behaves the same as if the facing was at full strength. If the torp does 3K damage and the shield facing it strikes has 240HP, thats 2760 extra damage that should fall over to the hull. I would be happy with %50 to %1000 of the left over damage hitting the hull. Maybe not all of it, but something should be said for weakened shields vs torps.

    If the facing is stronger than the torp, the current mechanic of a percentage of bleed through is ok. I think the shield damage from a torp hit should be a bit higher. No one should just sit there with full shields and take torp hit after torp and barely have to heal shields for them while topping off the hull from the bleed through.

    I would be cool with a buff... as long as crits do not get out of control.
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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bobtheyak wrote: »
    The original post assumes the torpedoes are already timed properly. The point is to address the heavy skill point investment it takes to use them.



    I only put 4pts in torpedoes. Is this why I'm awful? Or am I awful for other reasons?

    I need to know. This way when I meet someone, I can just be strainght up honest.
  • inktomi19inktomi19 Member Posts: 142 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Torpedoes are fine if you put them on a ship with tremendous forward firepower, and time them to hit when shields are down.

    They suck on a cruiser though. The problem on slow ships is that you need broadsides to have any chance of weakening shields, but torpedoes don't fire to the side.

    In canon, cruisers are shown firing torpedoes that curve to hit targets to the side, so I think it might be a help if the weaker torpedoes (photons in particular) were given much wider firing arcs. It probably wouldn't be the end of the world if photons had a 270? arc to match beam arrays.

    Photons aren't really the type of torpedo that is timed anyway -- they are best used when fired as quickly as possible due to their short cooldown. With a broader arc, healer-types could still contribute a little to DPS just because they would be very likely to have torpedoes in flight most of the time.

    Ideally, photons shouldn't require much thought or timing to use. "Fire photon torpedoes" is never ever the wrong answer in canon combat, so it should work about the same in the game -- sure, they might not do full damage against shields, but they ought to slip in and hit bare hull occasionally just by virtue of being fired so often.

    I'd be less sure about changes to other torpedo types. I could see quantums having a slightly wider firing arc, without being as wide as photons. Those are both torpedoes that are shown being used effectively on slow ships, and both are shown being fired pretty much as frequently as they can be loaded.
  • lostusthornlostusthorn Member Posts: 844
    edited January 2013
    Hrmm,

    maybe it is time to rethink the weapons firing arcs. Why should all weapons have the same firing arcs no matter on what ship they are installed one?

    what would happen if escorts have lower arcs, cruisers the largest and sci in the middle?

    Lets say a photon torp on a escort has 60, on a sci 120 and on a cruisers 180 degrees?
    Same for al other weapons and get rid of those for/aft slot nonsense, when i want to stick a dual beam bank aft, why shouldn't it be able to on a cruisers?
  • magniacapramagniacapra Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Give hull 75% resistances to energy weapons?
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    For photons, Doffs have certainly made their rate of fire less attractive. The PSW torp console used to only apply to photon torps, so they lost this advantage. The Borg weapon proc is gone, so for PvE they lost the advantage of 1k free damage.

    Irrc, (and it's been a long time since I looked @ them, so please correct me if I'm wrong) Photon torps have a high potential (compared to other torps) to kill crew. If this is actually correct this is the only reason I can think to use photonic torps over others for torp builds. For non torp builds that don't use Torp doffs the RoF advantage may still be worthwhile for spam clearing combined w/CVS&TS.

    Cronts imo are fine. Their job is to reduce target's movement and they do that. Given how many pets launch them, I'd prefer they not get boosted.

    Pengs are fine imo.

    Plasma and Trics don't need a buff (I realized you excluded them, just being thorough).

    Transphasics imo are fine (especially given storyline Torp/Mines).

    Given the CritH boost, I don't see Quants needing a boost tbh.

    For me this just leaves Photon Torps needing a look at. Given the amount of pet spam that uses them, I'd be cautious of boosting them too much. If they don't have an advantage in killing crew, give them that niche. Then they could be used w/builds that go after power systems in synergy which would help Fed Sci ships out at least.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    i made a thread a wile back about converting all torps to an omega torp like system with the charges and stuff. in it photons were the most rapid fire, and had the most charges. sure their damage was lackluster, but in a system like that they could be made appealing for volume of fire.

    currently, theres no way to make photons relevant at all. the closest thing they could do is make photons fly fast and quantums fly slow. its silly that quantums have all upsides and no downsides. fireing rate is irreverent, its all about delivering HYs at the perfect moment, not their dps, because they are worthless unless they hit hull.


    edit~

    oh! i got it! give EVERY ship innate photon torpedo launchers! the damage scales with you, you just always have them regardless if you don't slot any torps. but if you equip a quantum, or anything other more advanced torp, that photon is disabled and it costs you a weapon slot to use that other torp. see, the photon sucks so much it would never be worth a weapons slot, so they should just give us one. its blatantly uncanon for a ship to not be fireng at least photons, but thats what most ships are forced to do, run no torps.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You know what else is silly... is the hack job fix they got in the form of doffs. I mean they got rid of the old 3 second global on launchers... and introed torp doffs almost alone with.

    Every other doff of the same type reduce cool downs on the BOFF skills for that dmg type... accept torps... no they basicly make torps function properly... Torp doffs are the biggest joke in this game the more I think about it... they are a doff that basicly corrects a basic flaw in the game design... they don't add to anything... they basicly make torps work as they should.

    I would agree that if cryptic wasn't lazy / cheep... they would implement a proper ammo system ala the omega torp... and torp doffs would reduce cool downs on HY and Spread patterns as they should.
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  • thegrimcorsairthegrimcorsair Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You know what else is silly... is the hack job fix they got in the form of doffs. I mean they got rid of the old 3 second global on launchers... and introed torp doffs almost alone with.

    Every other doff of the same type reduce cool downs on the BOFF skills for that dmg type... accept torps... no they basicly make torps function properly... Torp doffs are the biggest joke in this game the more I think about it... they are a doff that basicly corrects a basic flaw in the game design... they don't add to anything... they basicly make torps work as they should.

    I would agree that if cryptic wasn't lazy / cheep... they would implement a proper ammo system ala the omega torp... and torp doffs would reduce cool downs on HY and Spread patterns as they should.

    It's not even remotely impossible the Omega torp's ammo hopper is a testbed for a similar change down the road. Don't all these new systems and gadgets have a... an experimental quality to them, this season?

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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You know what else is silly... is the hack job fix they got in the form of doffs. I mean they got rid of the old 3 second global on launchers... and introed torp doffs almost alone with.

    Every other doff of the same type reduce cool downs on the BOFF skills for that dmg type... accept torps... no they basicly make torps function properly... Torp doffs are the biggest joke in this game the more I think about it... they are a doff that basicly corrects a basic flaw in the game design... they don't add to anything... they basicly make torps work as they should.

    I would agree that if cryptic wasn't lazy / cheep... they would implement a proper ammo system ala the omega torp... and torp doffs would reduce cool downs on HY and Spread patterns as they should.

    thats my exact opinoin of them as well. an unbuffed torp launch should be 3 or 4 torps too, not a single torp. there is everything wrong with torps in game
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Buff torpedoes?

    Of course. I'd love to do more damage with my B'rel. :D
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  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Buff torpedoes?

    Of course. I'd love to do more damage with my B'rel. :D

    Ask Hus about his plasma torp build. :) The thing is nasty.
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  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    My take would be to have all torpedos work as follows:

    Torpedo damage roll - current facing shields strength = damage to hull

    ALL torpedos have a secondary explosion which deals an additional 10% hull damage, based on the damage as calculated by previous equation

    Bleedthrough damage is treated the same way

    FOR PHOTONS SPECIFICALLY:

    Use the Omega Torpedo Launcher Ammo system for Photon Torpedos, with a SLIGHTLY lower fire rate (1.5 - 2 seconds, instead of 1 second)
    ((my reasoning for Omega still being faster, is that Reputation gear is supposed to be the best in game, therefore the Omega Torpedo Launcher should be clearly the most powerful torpedo launcher, which, if used well, it currently is))

    So .. to clarify ... launch a torpedo against a full shield facing, nothing would be different than it currently is. Launch it against a nearly failed shield facing and get some extra oomph.
  • rudiefix1rudiefix1 Member Posts: 420
    edited January 2013
    I agree about the effect of crew disable/kills.

    Else photon torps are only (and best) usable in reducing cooldowns of high damege torps when using the torpedo doffs.

    On other thing I was wondering:

    How do the bleedthrough and -75% damage reduction work together.

    When a torpedo hits shields, will first the damage be reduced with 75% and will the remaining 25% have a bleedthrough of 10%? Or the other way around? Thus in numbers:

    Quantum with 10000 damage when hitting shield:

    7500 is reduced, thus shields take -2250 impact and hull take -250 from bleedthrough?
    or
    hull takes 1000 from bleedthrough, and shields take 0.25*-9000 = 2250?

    See the difference in hull damage...
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  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I agree on the Photon needing work, especially when compared to the rest of the torp types. Therefore, (and I see another poster in this thread agrees with me) since cruisers have a hard time broadsiding & laying out torps, then giving photons a 180 arc sounds good on the surface...

    So, I'm on the same page - Photon arc (and only photons) get 180 natural, everything else still 90...

    Heck, I play a Science officer and by the time I skilled up decently in my science abilities and engineering, I ran out of skill points to truly spec into torpedoes (I think I got 3's in the admiral level energy weapons crits and usually slot only one skill point in torpedo crits) and torps work "just fine enough" for me...
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