The current implementation of these abilites can not possibly be working as intended. These abilities were intended for ship classes, not captain classes. There was some sort of "reasoning" that "modular ship design" allowed for subnucs in escorts, and cruisers dancing to attack patterns. It makes PVP silly! Tee Hee!
That is garbage. Truly and simply garbage.
Remove those abilites from captains and bake them into the ship classes where they belong. Done. Get past it.
This is essentially the same pattern that Boffs follow.
Or split it up. Bake some into the ship, but allow for a captains chair station and allow certain abilites (not all) but some to be chosen in that manner. Seems a bit advanced to me, I think just baking them into the ships for now would be far more predictable. And that's good for balance.
And furthermore.....
All of what will be called Ship Class abilities will need to be skilled by the player if they wish to be super good at it. You don't spend skill points in sciency magic? Well hopping into a Science ship to use sub nuc won't be working out that well for you. It will WORK, just not as well as someone that skills for it. Oh thats right. Previously you didn't need to spend skill points. Now you will.
Captains are already free to spend points as they wish. Make it so ALL the points they spend have meaning vs the abilities and ships they intend to use. There can no longer be FREE abilities. The Previous costs for owning those abilites has been REMOVED and it needs to go BACK IN but in a manner that doensn't punish the player or LOCK them into a single path.
This will be an additional way to allow for greater design leeway. Ships could have much greater variety than they do now without fretting over the huge issues that mixing "captain abilities" and "ship classes" brought to the game.
And it allows for truly hybrid class ships. How about a fast attack craft with just Alpha AND Sub nuc, but NO other ability. How about a Massive cruiser with scattering field, team eps 5k, and um...something else! This would be a GREAT way and opportunity to address the engineering ships.
You want to cripple cruisers so we are easy meat for your lame escort??
Right?
Well captains flying cruisers use attack patterns
indeed attack patterns are intended FOR cruisers
Escorts do not need ANY more help
if you tied a skill to escorts it should be "ramming speed"
wow. can you even read and understand my post? do you even understand the unbalanced interaction between ships and captains abilities as it currently exists?
do you think i have some difficulty killing cruisers?
wait, u think i fly an escort? oh wait, you think i fly a 'lame escort' oh your a tuff guy aren't you.
are we even in the same effing thread? dude. please.
If you DO NOT intend to read and understand the topic, don't post. You don't belong here.
no built in player abilities? there wouldn't be captain types then
as a fan of tacs an all sorts of things, because of what they can bring to each ship type, im afraid i am completely against this. there is a great deal of fun and synergy to be had when not patching ship type and captain type. i don't think its silly that escorts can subnuk if their captain is a scientist, or that a cruiser can use APA when the captain is a tac officer. this game is all about you being a superhero/captain, so your captain making that big of a difference is par for the course.
instead of throwing that all out, its the under performing captain that needs fixing. when every captain type has useful synergy in every ship type things will be fixed. i think captains should stay a unique type, and bring their specialty with them.
I will have to disagree as well. Most of the fun in PVP is matching different ship classes to Captain Classes.
I remember when I first started playing, my first character, Bianca, a Science Officer, would decimate STF's with her Advanced Escort. I liked the idea of being in a ship agile enough to turn my nose towards an enemy to sub nuke them or to assist my allies with scattering field or debuff them with Sensor Scan. I liked the fact I could also do a good amount of damage for the fact I was without Tactical Captain abilities.
In general, I just don't think this is a very good idea as it takes a majority of the variety out of the game, or whatever variety it has left.
The current implementation of these abilites can not possibly be working as intended. These abilities were intended for ship classes, not captain classes. There was some sort of "reasoning" that "modular ship design" allowed for subnucs in escorts, and cruisers dancing to attack patterns. It makes PVP silly! Tee Hee!
That is garbage. Truly and simply garbage.
Remove those abilites from captains and bake them into the ship classes where they belong. Done. Get past it.
This is essentially the same pattern that Boffs follow.
Or split it up. Bake some into the ship, but allow for a captains chair station and allow certain abilites (not all) but some to be chosen in that manner. Seems a bit advanced to me, I think just baking them into the ships for now would be far more predictable. And that's good for balance.
And furthermore.....
All of what will be called Ship Class abilities will need to be skilled by the player if they wish to be super good at it. You don't spend skill points in sciency magic? Well hopping into a Science ship to use sub nuc won't be working out that well for you. It will WORK, just not as well as someone that skills for it. Oh thats right. Previously you didn't need to spend skill points. Now you will.
Captains are already free to spend points as they wish. Make it so ALL the points they spend have meaning vs the abilities and ships they intend to use. There can no longer be FREE abilities. The Previous costs for owning those abilites has been REMOVED and it needs to go BACK IN but in a manner that doensn't punish the player or LOCK them into a single path.
This will be an additional way to allow for greater design leeway. Ships could have much greater variety than they do now without fretting over the huge issues that mixing "captain abilities" and "ship classes" brought to the game.
And it allows for truly hybrid class ships. How about a fast attack craft with just Alpha AND Sub nuc, but NO other ability. How about a Massive cruiser with scattering field, team eps 5k, and um...something else! This would be a GREAT way and opportunity to address the engineering ships.
This will help make PVP serious! Mhm.
Cheers and happy flying!!
No... Just... No
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
One thing I'd like to see is a bonus to a ships primary purpose. A Cruiser puts out stronger heals, science ships have stronger crowd control, and escorts have stronger tactical skills. Engineering Team might do 8k hull heal, but the same ET would only heal 6k from a Science ship and 4k from an Escort. Sure, this is already the case based on bridge officer slots, console slots, and the like but I'm thinking more like each ship would come with an innate bonus to certain areas of the skill tree.
For example, a pure science ship like the intrepid would have +18 to every skill in the skill tree just by virtue of equipping that ship. It would make science captains that much stronger for min/maxing or they could be more well rounded by virtue of having all those free skill points to put in other areas. For an Assault Cruiser, they'd get something like an innate +18 to parts of the Engineering skill tree as well as portions of the Tactical skill tree.
Also, do away with the innate power bonus that is distinct to each ship type (Escorts +15 to Weapons, Science +15 to Aux). Innate power bonus should be to Cruisers alone, they should have a higher power level potential, and more efficient usage from power enhancing abilities (like batteries, EPtx, EPS, and so on).
I don't suspect any of this would go over particularly well as a complete revamp would obviously be required. But maybe some of this stuff could be used to make better, more interesting distinctions between new ships. There are only so many new ways to do things based on bridge officer and console slots.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
wow. can you even read and understand my post? do you even understand the unbalanced interaction between ships and captains abilities as it currently exists?
probably better than you do yourself
you came across as "cripple everyone but escorts in combat"
do you think i have some difficulty killing cruisers?
clearly
wait, u think i fly an escort? oh wait, you think i fly a 'lame escort' oh your a tuff guy aren't you.
nope
are we even in the same effing thread? dude. please
.
you come in making demands and are surprised when people disagree?
If you DO NOT intend to read and understand the topic, don't post. You don't belong here
and if you think ANYONE does not have a right to an opinion you should be flying a borg cube
@OP I have heard many worse suggestions. count me in.
Just a note to those that fear for the beautiful synergy that sci and tac can have with the three primary ship classes. If engs are to get such a synergy, this will involve some form of nerfing of current synergies, otherwise engies will be the one to rule them all.
eg, the all cannon escorts, could become a thing of the past for a tac, if cryptic ever decides to look at their own game and do something about it other then releasing costumes and gamble items.
personally i like thissler's idea, but what does it matter?...the game is what it is, changes of this magnitude will never even be considered...if i had to design sto i would do so many things differently, but i'm not in charge and not capable of making any changes to the game, and so is nobody else on this forum.
*not even tribble test feedback is taken into account by the devs, why should anything else be?
i'm going to save my time and brain cells for something else, player input and feedback is not even remotely valued in sto. I'm not saying that the devs arent willing to, it's just either the communication between player base and dev team is severly lacking or they got a master plan already from which they cannot move away.
@thissler: just don't make this another "arguing with trollvax thread" be the adult and stop answering him, otherwise before you know it you will circle around the same issue for 20 pages.
One thing I'd like to see is a bonus to a ships primary purpose. A Cruiser puts out stronger heals, science ships have stronger crowd control, and escorts have stronger tactical skills. Engineering Team might do 8k hull heal, but the same ET would only heal 6k from a Science ship and 4k from an Escort. Sure, this is already the case based on bridge officer slots, console slots, and the like but I'm thinking more like each ship would come with an innate bonus to certain areas of the skill tree.
For example, a pure science ship like the intrepid would have +18 to every skill in the skill tree just by virtue of equipping that ship. It would make science captains that much stronger for min/maxing or they could be more well rounded by virtue of having all those free skill points to put in other areas. For an Assault Cruiser, they'd get something like an innate +18 to parts of the Engineering skill tree as well as portions of the Tactical skill tree.
Also, do away with the innate power bonus that is distinct to each ship type (Escorts +15 to Weapons, Science +15 to Aux). Innate power bonus should be to Cruisers alone, they should have a higher power level potential, and more efficient usage from power enhancing abilities (like batteries, EPtx, EPS, and so on).
I don't suspect any of this would go over particularly well as a complete revamp would obviously be required. But maybe some of this stuff could be used to make better, more interesting distinctions between new ships. There are only so many new ways to do things based on bridge officer and console slots.
I like the idea that a vessels design would buff the class intended for it as the primary but non- primary classes perform a little under par in trade off for what they bring to the build. Its an idea that is only brushed at currently though in S1.2 it seemed more a factor in design.
It would stack well with the idea that "traditional" technologies work best with factions that designed them.
I find the idea fascinating but i fear players will be piedgonhold to certain ships. But i would like to see captain abilities being mixed so i can run some tac cap abilities, and some sci cap abilties. Would offer lots of fun and variety.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Eh, did you get your TRIBBLE kicked by a sci in an escort. Get over it, or better, get your own.
As a general rule, if you think it's op then do it before complaining about what others do, you'll notice that everything has drawbacks and that there is no magic but a wise use of what the game has to offer. :rolleyes: A
And if it's really "op" (I don't think there's something completely killing pvp right now but anyway) then keep doing it because itmeans others don't have the IQ to counter it.
I wish that space worked more like kits on the ground or even like the new rep system.
You're ready to pick your first ability - you have two options. That's right, it's not a case that you automatically get one of the five above - but you have a choice of two for each one. Okay, maybe it's a choice of two for four of the five (odd how this looks like the rep system, eh? 4 choices and a fixed? Wonder if they've been thinking about this too?).
It would not be as open as the rep system choices - it would be more along the lines of how the Romulan and Omega rep vary - each offers a choice of an offensive or defensive passive, but they are not the same choices for each. Romulan offers +3% crit, while Omega offers +30 Weapon Skill - both offensive passives, but different.
So for Tac, Eng, and Sci - each would have a choice of an "offensive" or "defensive" ability for each of the first four abilities... each would reflect the nature of the career.
A Tac offensive ability would not be the same as a Sci offensive ability would not be the same as an Eng offensive ability. The same for the defensive option for each.
A person could build a more offensive Engineer, a more defensive Tactical, or even a 50/50 offensive/defensive Science... or the defensive Engineer, 50/50 Tac, etc, etc, etc, etc.
It was just a quick blurb - not even sure how it came up in the original thread which was a thread I was talking about the unlikelihood of the Sarr Theln Warship Carrier being in the Dominion Lockbox...weird, eh?
In general, I find the Careers to be somewhat off in space. On the ground, you've got the limited kits you can run and you have some actual different skills. Add in the innate abilities, and you've got three things that differentiate the Careers on the ground.
In space, it's just the five innate abilities. The skills are the same. The ships/BOFF layouts are the same. Compared to ground, it really lacks "flavor"...I guess you might call it.
Which kind of brings up two points:
1) Should space be more "limited" like Ground? Not necessarily limiting to ships, but even in creating bonuses for flying certain ships - you're going to be looking at that feeling of being pigeonholed. Tacs getting a bonus for Escorts, Raptors, BoPs, Destroyers? Engs getting a bonus for Cruisers? Do Tacs and Engs get a smaller bonus for Warships and Battle Cruisers? Where are the ships for KDF so the Sci gets a bonus? This just starts to become pretty problematic from the start, eh?
2) Complexity and Balance. While a more complex system that offers more choices could offer more flavor and fun... those additional variables will make it that much more difficult for some semblance of balance to be maintained, no?
On the Ground, I get a feeling of being a Tac, Sci, or Eng. I definitely feel that difference. It's there, like I said, in kits - innate abilities - even the different skills for those kits/abilities.
In Space, well...I've got 5 abilities that may or may not be on CD - that may or may not be stripped or cleansed the moment I use them... then I'm just back to everything else being the same as if it didn't matter what Career I picked.
One could say, that in space - Career choice is little more than having picked a space kit. You picked the Tac kit that gives you 5 abilities, or you picked Sci/Eng for the 5 abilities that come with their respective kits.
Perhaps this comes about because of thinking lolground. The combination of Ground and Space defines the character better than either alone, but still - there's no denying (imho) the lack of definition in space. It's just a case of picking a 5 ability kit...it's not a career.
And if it's really "op" (I don't think there's something completely killing pvp right now but anyway) then keep doing it because itmeans others don't have the IQ to counter it.
With this reasoning you just gave justification to use whatever skills/doff/console regardless how "cheese" or "broken" it is, due to lack of IQ of the opponent.
Right....
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
I find the idea fascinating but i fear players will be piedgonhold to certain ships. But i would like to see captain abilities being mixed so i can run some tac cap abilities, and some sci cap abilties. Would offer lots of fun and variety.
Wasnt the First Officer idea suppossed to do something like that but on a smaller slightly weaker scale?
Comments
Poor soul didnt have time to log out.
I would, but there's a Verb AND Adjective shortage. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.
Seems like "Cryptic BUFF, NERF, FIX, BROKE, DESTROYED, OVERPOWERED, EXPLOIT, UNBALANCED, have all been worn out.
So sad.
Due to this, I've been forced to take a different tact.
I apologize for any inconvenience.
And Hai2U!!
And as requested, More Trinh!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FWSuV0B8dbw#t=634s
...or LSD-induced hallucination. o.O
Escorts Don't EXIST in canon for most of recorded history
so no
I thought I had seem them all. That one took me by surprise.
If you don't understand the difference between 2 different works of fiction I'm sorry.
You do understand this is fiction right?
If you don't actually have anything worth adding don't. This isn't an opinion piece.
Right?
Well captains flying cruisers use attack patterns
indeed attack patterns are intended FOR cruisers
Escorts do not need ANY more help
if you tied a skill to escorts it should be "ramming speed"
wow. can you even read and understand my post? do you even understand the unbalanced interaction between ships and captains abilities as it currently exists?
do you think i have some difficulty killing cruisers?
wait, u think i fly an escort? oh wait, you think i fly a 'lame escort' oh your a tuff guy aren't you.
are we even in the same effing thread? dude. please.
If you DO NOT intend to read and understand the topic, don't post. You don't belong here.
as a fan of tacs an all sorts of things, because of what they can bring to each ship type, im afraid i am completely against this. there is a great deal of fun and synergy to be had when not patching ship type and captain type. i don't think its silly that escorts can subnuk if their captain is a scientist, or that a cruiser can use APA when the captain is a tac officer. this game is all about you being a superhero/captain, so your captain making that big of a difference is par for the course.
instead of throwing that all out, its the under performing captain that needs fixing. when every captain type has useful synergy in every ship type things will be fixed. i think captains should stay a unique type, and bring their specialty with them.
Of course, by this metric you wouldn't have started this thread.
The idea sounds horrible. Feel free to offer an actual argument for the idea if you can think of one.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I remember when I first started playing, my first character, Bianca, a Science Officer, would decimate STF's with her Advanced Escort. I liked the idea of being in a ship agile enough to turn my nose towards an enemy to sub nuke them or to assist my allies with scattering field or debuff them with Sensor Scan. I liked the fact I could also do a good amount of damage for the fact I was without Tactical Captain abilities.
In general, I just don't think this is a very good idea as it takes a majority of the variety out of the game, or whatever variety it has left.
No... Just... No
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
For example, a pure science ship like the intrepid would have +18 to every skill in the skill tree just by virtue of equipping that ship. It would make science captains that much stronger for min/maxing or they could be more well rounded by virtue of having all those free skill points to put in other areas. For an Assault Cruiser, they'd get something like an innate +18 to parts of the Engineering skill tree as well as portions of the Tactical skill tree.
Also, do away with the innate power bonus that is distinct to each ship type (Escorts +15 to Weapons, Science +15 to Aux). Innate power bonus should be to Cruisers alone, they should have a higher power level potential, and more efficient usage from power enhancing abilities (like batteries, EPtx, EPS, and so on).
I don't suspect any of this would go over particularly well as a complete revamp would obviously be required. But maybe some of this stuff could be used to make better, more interesting distinctions between new ships. There are only so many new ways to do things based on bridge officer and console slots.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
probably better than you do yourself
you came across as "cripple everyone but escorts in combat"
clearly
nope .
you come in making demands and are surprised when people disagree?
and if you think ANYONE does not have a right to an opinion you should be flying a borg cube
Just a note to those that fear for the beautiful synergy that sci and tac can have with the three primary ship classes. If engs are to get such a synergy, this will involve some form of nerfing of current synergies, otherwise engies will be the one to rule them all.
eg, the all cannon escorts, could become a thing of the past for a tac, if cryptic ever decides to look at their own game and do something about it other then releasing costumes and gamble items.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
*not even tribble test feedback is taken into account by the devs, why should anything else be?
i'm going to save my time and brain cells for something else, player input and feedback is not even remotely valued in sto. I'm not saying that the devs arent willing to, it's just either the communication between player base and dev team is severly lacking or they got a master plan already from which they cannot move away.
@thissler: just don't make this another "arguing with trollvax thread" be the adult and stop answering him, otherwise before you know it you will circle around the same issue for 20 pages.
Some players will still complain that Escorts and Tacs are too OP even if tac/escorts didnt have anythong but BOff powers to fall back on.
R.I.P
It would stack well with the idea that "traditional" technologies work best with factions that designed them.
R.I.P
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
As a general rule, if you think it's op then do it before complaining about what others do, you'll notice that everything has drawbacks and that there is no magic but a wise use of what the game has to offer. :rolleyes: A
And if it's really "op" (I don't think there's something completely killing pvp right now but anyway) then keep doing it because itmeans others don't have the IQ to counter it.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=489841
Which was originally posted in this thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=485671
Basically this part:
It was just a quick blurb - not even sure how it came up in the original thread which was a thread I was talking about the unlikelihood of the Sarr Theln Warship Carrier being in the Dominion Lockbox...weird, eh?
In general, I find the Careers to be somewhat off in space. On the ground, you've got the limited kits you can run and you have some actual different skills. Add in the innate abilities, and you've got three things that differentiate the Careers on the ground.
In space, it's just the five innate abilities. The skills are the same. The ships/BOFF layouts are the same. Compared to ground, it really lacks "flavor"...I guess you might call it.
Which kind of brings up two points:
1) Should space be more "limited" like Ground? Not necessarily limiting to ships, but even in creating bonuses for flying certain ships - you're going to be looking at that feeling of being pigeonholed. Tacs getting a bonus for Escorts, Raptors, BoPs, Destroyers? Engs getting a bonus for Cruisers? Do Tacs and Engs get a smaller bonus for Warships and Battle Cruisers? Where are the ships for KDF so the Sci gets a bonus? This just starts to become pretty problematic from the start, eh?
2) Complexity and Balance. While a more complex system that offers more choices could offer more flavor and fun... those additional variables will make it that much more difficult for some semblance of balance to be maintained, no?
On the Ground, I get a feeling of being a Tac, Sci, or Eng. I definitely feel that difference. It's there, like I said, in kits - innate abilities - even the different skills for those kits/abilities.
In Space, well...I've got 5 abilities that may or may not be on CD - that may or may not be stripped or cleansed the moment I use them... then I'm just back to everything else being the same as if it didn't matter what Career I picked.
One could say, that in space - Career choice is little more than having picked a space kit. You picked the Tac kit that gives you 5 abilities, or you picked Sci/Eng for the 5 abilities that come with their respective kits.
Perhaps this comes about because of thinking lolground. The combination of Ground and Space defines the character better than either alone, but still - there's no denying (imho) the lack of definition in space. It's just a case of picking a 5 ability kit...it's not a career.
With this reasoning you just gave justification to use whatever skills/doff/console regardless how "cheese" or "broken" it is, due to lack of IQ of the opponent.
Right....
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Wasnt the First Officer idea suppossed to do something like that but on a smaller slightly weaker scale?
R.I.P
IIRC til back then, yes. But somehow it didnt get implemented. For what reason i dont know.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
"Scissors beats paper. Scissors is OP. Nerf it please."
"Looks at this sentence... looks at the OP....decides the OP is just having a good ol' time trolling everyone but sounding super extra serious!"
Well Played.