Shields have a high innate resistance to kinetic damage. If a torpedo hits shields, the damage that doesn't bleed through might as well not have happened. Transphasics sort of get around that by having higher bleedthrough, but the 60% that hits the shields still gets reduced to pretty much nothing. Cannons, on the other hand, do full damage to shields and hull.
They're not worse than cannons, but they are a weapon you have to manage every shot.
Not straight through, 90% of them still hit the shield and 10% bleeds through, but the 90% that hits shields does their damage to the shields. Torpedoes split the same way, but the 90% that hits shields is greatly reduced, so the shields take very little damage.
Not straight through, 90% of them still hit the shield and 10% bleeds through, but the 90% that hits shields does their damage to the shields. Torpedoes split the same way, but the 90% that hits shields is greatly reduced, so the shields take very little damage.
Ok...I see what you're saying.
I can see why people prefer cannons...but I still prefer torpedoes.
Shields up, Cannons do lots of damage lots of damage lots of damage, torpedoes do jack all.
Shields down, cannons do lots of damage lots of damage lots of damage, torpedoes do sporadic HUGE damage.
If you can count on shields being down a lot, great. In a lot of situations (particularly but not only pvp), you can't.
My tac/escort with all guns can just ... vaporize targets faster than folks with mines and torps and whatnot, unless the torp folks get lucky. Cannons don't rely on luck. They MOW THINGS DOWN.
Torps are fun, mind you, but they can be very frustrating: 'ha ha, shields down, I'll shoot my torp! ... OMFG, he got 1% shields back and now my torp did nearly nothing??? DANG IT'
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Shields up, Cannons do lots of damage lots of damage lots of damage, torpedoes do jack all.
Shields down, cannons do lots of damage lots of damage lots of damage, torpedoes do sporadic HUGE damage.
If you can count on shields being down a lot, great. In a lot of situations (particularly but not only pvp), you can't.
My tac/escort with all guns can just ... vaporize targets faster than folks with mines and torps and whatnot, unless the torp folks get lucky. Cannons don't rely on luck. They MOW THINGS DOWN.
Torps are fun, mind you, but they can be very frustrating: 'ha ha, shields down, I'll shoot my torp! ... OMFG, he got 1% shields back and now my torp did nearly nothing??? DANG IT'
I see your point...and it definitely makes Cannons seem worth it.
I just can't get over the 45 degrees...but maybe I should try them out and see how it plays.
Just my personal preference, but I really don't like having to line up my ship just right to use cannons. I use beams and torpedoes on everything. I'm thinking of throwing turrets into the mix to see what happens.
Just my personal preference, but I really don't like having to line up my ship just right to use cannons. I use beams and torpedoes on everything. I'm thinking of throwing turrets into the mix to see what happens.
I'm the same way...and that is one of the reasons why I asked this question.
My tac/escort with all guns can just ... vaporize targets faster than folks with mines and torps and whatnot, unless the torp folks get lucky. Cannons don't rely on luck. They MOW THINGS DOWN.
Torps are fun, mind you, but they can be very frustrating: 'ha ha, shields down, I'll shoot my torp! ... OMFG, he got 1% shields back and now my torp did nearly nothing??? DANG IT'
To be fair, a well handled torpedo boat flown by someone who knows what they're doing can be absolutely devastating, especially with the addition of the adapted Maco set fedside.
Oh, let me be clear that I'm not saying Torps are bad at all. I think the two weapons have various balancing differences and so on -- for example, I LOVE torps on a science boat, because you can use SCIENCE! to help strip shields, not max out weapon power, and go boom boom boom.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I would probably be running an all-Cannon build on my Defiant if there were more Ensign Tac Boff skill options.
Tac Ensign options are only beam, Tac Team, and Torpedo skills. With three Ensign Tac skills on the Defiant, I can fill two of them up with Tac Team, but then I'm pretty much out of that third ensign slot if I don't use torpedoes.
Torpedo Spreads are a great way of handling Probes in KASE, of course, but if I could run something else there I'd dump Torps entirely.
Some folks swear by guns only, some prefer a different loadout that gives them different tactical options.
LOL i chuckled at this response. Some people do not get it, please dont listen to this response.
My tactical captain flies the Fleet Tac escort. I run 125 weapon power, and all cannons up front and 3 turrets on back.
I use a Rapid Fire 1 and 3, Scatter Volley 2 and 2 Tactical Teams and Directed Energy Modulation 1.
I am going to disagree that there is no difference. I used to use a torpedo (quantum) up front instead of 4 cannons but I quickly learned how much more DPS I was actually doing when I began using parser. You have to look at this way..With all cannons and the right power level, you will ALWAYS have weapons hitting target, 7 weapons on an escort. That 4th cannon is always firing, always doing damage to target. That torpedo is not, that torpedo only does damage when it is not on cooldown, when the abilities to buff that torpedo are not on cooldown. With a cannon, it does not need to be buffed by a BOFF in order to continue sustained DPS. Shield will drop quickly and you will see good numbers from an all cannon/turret build.
If you think your power levels will tank, your wrong. If you still believe they will , get yourself an emergency Power to weapons ability rank 1 and use that , but from my experience, its not required and my power levels never drop below 70 at the lowest will rapid fire or scatter volley up.
Torpedo's are great for cruisers/sci ships and some slower moving escorts sure, but for the most part, all cannons/turrets are great and there is a difference.
I use the Phaser Quad Cannons, 2x Fleet dual heavy phaser cannons and 1x Fleet phaser dual cannons, with 3 fleet turrets on back and been happy ever since i dropped that worthless torpedo. My bonus accuracy is above 35%, I have the Targeting systems skill maxed out, and all my weapons have CritD and CritC modifiers and I VERY rarely miss the target when in PVE setting. I do not PVP with this build, so im not going to say it works for that., but for PVE (STF, SOLO) its amazing...try it out, and watch shields and hulls melt.
Also, pick up some points into electro-plasma systems and your power levels recharge much quicker. The people on this forum saying that it negatively effects power levels have a TRIBBLE build and need to re work it in order for this to be more effective..I think most people are stuck in the old days when everyone used torpedo's and tac consoles did not stack. Try it for yourself, only way to really see the numbers. Good day
LOL i chuckled at this response. Some people do not get it, please dont listen to this response.
My tactical captain flies the Fleet Tac escort. I run 125 weapon power, and all cannons up front and 3 turrets on back.
I use a Rapid Fire 1 and 3, Scatter Volley 2 and 2 Tactical Teams and Directed Energy Modulation 1.
I am going to disagree that there is no difference. I used to use a torpedo (quantum) up front instead of 4 cannons but I quickly learned how much more DPS I was actually doing when I began using parser. You have to look at this way..With all cannons and the right power level, you will ALWAYS have weapons hitting target, 7 weapons on an escort. That 4th cannon is always firing, always doing damage to target. That torpedo is not, that torpedo only does damage when it is not on cooldown, when the abilities to buff that torpedo are not on cooldown. With a cannon, it does not need to be buffed by a BOFF in order to continue sustained DPS. Shield will drop quickly and you will see good numbers from an all cannon/turret build.
If you think your power levels will tank, your wrong. If you still believe they will , get yourself an emergency Power to weapons ability rank 1 and use that , but from my experience, its not required and my power levels never drop below 70 at the lowest will rapid fire or scatter volley up.
Torpedo's are great for cruisers/sci ships and some slower moving escorts sure, but for the most part, all cannons/turrets are great and there is a difference.
I use the Phaser Quad Cannons, 2x Fleet dual heavy phaser cannons and 1x Fleet phaser dual cannons, with 3 fleet turrets on back and been happy ever since i dropped that worthless torpedo. My bonus accuracy is above 35%, I have the Targeting systems skill maxed out, and all my weapons have CritD and CritC modifiers and I VERY rarely miss the target when in PVE setting. I do not PVP with this build, so im not going to say it works for that., but for PVE (STF, SOLO) its amazing...try it out, and watch shields and hulls melt.
Also, pick up some points into electro-plasma systems and your power levels recharge much quicker. The people on this forum saying that it negatively effects power levels have a TRIBBLE build and need to re work it in order for this to be more effective..I think most people are stuck in the old days when everyone used torpedo's and tac consoles did not stack. Try it for yourself, only way to really see the numbers. Good day
Ah the foolishness of youth. You're whining about torpedoes being sub- par, yet you're not backing them with anything. Not to mention the hugely inefficient boff slotting you're advocating. And do you really think that points into EPS will help your dps?
Torpedoes deal kinetic damage, and while kinetic damage does very little vs. shields (25% or so?), it does double damage vs. exposed hulls. This makes torpedoes extremely dependent on downing shields before hitting their targets.
I used to use the combo of Target-Sub-Shields3 + HYT3 quantums + AP-Omega3 out of cloak to 1-pass-obliterate my targets. However, hull points have gone up a bit since then.
These days, the combo of 3 DHC's + 1 torpedo launcher front and turrets + kinetic cutting beam aft is a well rounded damage dealer with no energy drain weaknesses.
That reminds me, what aft mine/torp do people like with a mostly cannon build?
My defiant has a tricobal mine for fly-over lulz, but not sure how useful it is in practice. (Everything dies pretty fast, regardless)
I use a rear-facing Transphasic Cluster Torpedo, myself. Covers whatever distance I need like a torpedo before blowing apart in to several mines to attack whomever is there. Plus, being Transphasic, it is more forgiving against Shielded targets than other torpedo/mine classes.
Torps are fun, mind you, but they can be very frustrating: 'ha ha, shields down, I'll shoot my torp! ... OMFG, he got 1% shields back and now my torp did nearly nothing??? DANG IT'
That is not how torpedoes work. A tiny bit of shields will only stop a tiny bit of the torpedo damage and take a large amount of hull damage. Torpedoes are also not that bad against shields doing over 1000 damage per hit on a good torpedo build and a great build can do 1400 to 1700 damage to shields per shot. That and you lose no damage at range.
That is not how torpedoes work. A tiny bit of shields will only stop a tiny bit of the torpedo damage and take a large amount of hull damage. Torpedoes are also not that bad against shields doing over 1000 damage per hit on a good torpedo build. That and you lose no damage at range.
DHCs typically hit that hard, and they fire constantly.
Torpedoes do have their place though. In PvP, they are exceedingly hard to use, since players balance their shields non-stop. They're still good on science ships, since they tend to run very low weapon power but have alternative ways of dropping shields, but they're exceedingly difficult to use on escorts, and worthless on cruisers because of the low turn rate.
In PvE though, there are a lot of targets without shields, NPC ships usually don't balance their shields or regenerate them very rapidly, and NPC ships tend to have a lot more hull health than players, so torpedoes cam be a big help.
If you're playing an escort, it is in your best interests to learn to line up the cannons. You can use cannons alone and do just fine -- they are your bread and butter. Torpedoes are also useful, but they are optional.
Torpedos need a lot of ranks in projectile weapon specialization and projectile weapon skill to be effective, very expensive to spec in to, and it needs 2 or 3 purple projectile weapons doffs, also very expensive. It pays off if you do it though, I have all torpedo skills maxed and run 3 purple doffs on my tac in fleet defiant, and using a quantum with all crit mods. Parsers show it always is a large part of my damage over 25% of it which is more then I get from a single DHC. Works great for me in pvp and pve, it almost always is what kills my targets.
Comments
Some folks swear by guns only, some prefer a different loadout that gives them different tactical options.
They're not worse than cannons, but they are a weapon you have to manage every shot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ok...I see what you're saying.
I can see why people prefer cannons...but I still prefer torpedoes.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Shields down, cannons do lots of damage lots of damage lots of damage, torpedoes do sporadic HUGE damage.
If you can count on shields being down a lot, great. In a lot of situations (particularly but not only pvp), you can't.
My tac/escort with all guns can just ... vaporize targets faster than folks with mines and torps and whatnot, unless the torp folks get lucky. Cannons don't rely on luck. They MOW THINGS DOWN.
Torps are fun, mind you, but they can be very frustrating: 'ha ha, shields down, I'll shoot my torp! ... OMFG, he got 1% shields back and now my torp did nearly nothing??? DANG IT'
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I see your point...and it definitely makes Cannons seem worth it.
I just can't get over the 45 degrees...but maybe I should try them out and see how it plays.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm the same way...and that is one of the reasons why I asked this question.
I always have two turrets in the aft.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
To be fair, a well handled torpedo boat flown by someone who knows what they're doing can be absolutely devastating, especially with the addition of the adapted Maco set fedside.
you have to balance up what is best for you, how you play, your turn rate, skills etc.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Tac Ensign options are only beam, Tac Team, and Torpedo skills. With three Ensign Tac skills on the Defiant, I can fill two of them up with Tac Team, but then I'm pretty much out of that third ensign slot if I don't use torpedoes.
Torpedo Spreads are a great way of handling Probes in KASE, of course, but if I could run something else there I'd dump Torps entirely.
LOL i chuckled at this response. Some people do not get it, please dont listen to this response.
My tactical captain flies the Fleet Tac escort. I run 125 weapon power, and all cannons up front and 3 turrets on back.
I use a Rapid Fire 1 and 3, Scatter Volley 2 and 2 Tactical Teams and Directed Energy Modulation 1.
I am going to disagree that there is no difference. I used to use a torpedo (quantum) up front instead of 4 cannons but I quickly learned how much more DPS I was actually doing when I began using parser. You have to look at this way..With all cannons and the right power level, you will ALWAYS have weapons hitting target, 7 weapons on an escort. That 4th cannon is always firing, always doing damage to target. That torpedo is not, that torpedo only does damage when it is not on cooldown, when the abilities to buff that torpedo are not on cooldown. With a cannon, it does not need to be buffed by a BOFF in order to continue sustained DPS. Shield will drop quickly and you will see good numbers from an all cannon/turret build.
If you think your power levels will tank, your wrong. If you still believe they will , get yourself an emergency Power to weapons ability rank 1 and use that , but from my experience, its not required and my power levels never drop below 70 at the lowest will rapid fire or scatter volley up.
Torpedo's are great for cruisers/sci ships and some slower moving escorts sure, but for the most part, all cannons/turrets are great and there is a difference.
I use the Phaser Quad Cannons, 2x Fleet dual heavy phaser cannons and 1x Fleet phaser dual cannons, with 3 fleet turrets on back and been happy ever since i dropped that worthless torpedo. My bonus accuracy is above 35%, I have the Targeting systems skill maxed out, and all my weapons have CritD and CritC modifiers and I VERY rarely miss the target when in PVE setting. I do not PVP with this build, so im not going to say it works for that., but for PVE (STF, SOLO) its amazing...try it out, and watch shields and hulls melt.
Also, pick up some points into electro-plasma systems and your power levels recharge much quicker. The people on this forum saying that it negatively effects power levels have a TRIBBLE build and need to re work it in order for this to be more effective..I think most people are stuck in the old days when everyone used torpedo's and tac consoles did not stack. Try it for yourself, only way to really see the numbers. Good day
Ah the foolishness of youth. You're whining about torpedoes being sub- par, yet you're not backing them with anything. Not to mention the hugely inefficient boff slotting you're advocating. And do you really think that points into EPS will help your dps?
Oh and the recommending DCs is adorable.
Even knowing this I still have a rapid fire Photon Torpedo build that I use with my Defiant that I just love
Disagree...Cannons: everything
Torps: nothing :cool:
My defiant has a tricobal mine for fly-over lulz, but not sure how useful it is in practice. (Everything dies pretty fast, regardless)
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I used to use the combo of Target-Sub-Shields3 + HYT3 quantums + AP-Omega3 out of cloak to 1-pass-obliterate my targets. However, hull points have gone up a bit since then.
These days, the combo of 3 DHC's + 1 torpedo launcher front and turrets + kinetic cutting beam aft is a well rounded damage dealer with no energy drain weaknesses.
I use a rear-facing Transphasic Cluster Torpedo, myself. Covers whatever distance I need like a torpedo before blowing apart in to several mines to attack whomever is there. Plus, being Transphasic, it is more forgiving against Shielded targets than other torpedo/mine classes.
Torpedoes do have their place though. In PvP, they are exceedingly hard to use, since players balance their shields non-stop. They're still good on science ships, since they tend to run very low weapon power but have alternative ways of dropping shields, but they're exceedingly difficult to use on escorts, and worthless on cruisers because of the low turn rate.
In PvE though, there are a lot of targets without shields, NPC ships usually don't balance their shields or regenerate them very rapidly, and NPC ships tend to have a lot more hull health than players, so torpedoes cam be a big help.
If you're playing an escort, it is in your best interests to learn to line up the cannons. You can use cannons alone and do just fine -- they are your bread and butter. Torpedoes are also useful, but they are optional.