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concentrated tachyon mines

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
edited January 2013 in PvP Gameplay
yeah its about time i made this post. i dont know if this is a bug or is intended but if you use these op mines you can speed up the cd to 12 secs with a dispersal pattrn beta 1. now they spit out 4 mines every 20 secs. how on earth can a dp make 7 mines every 12 secs? not to mention they are so op. cryptic please fix these stupid mines. i mean people can talk all they want about trics but these mines strip off ships better then how sci used to do it. you can have extends tss and rsp going with team fort and they will still strip off mines with ease. they need to have the debuff taken off and do 1/4 of sheild strip then they do now.
Post edited by [Deleted User] on
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Comments

  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I dunno...in this case, I gotta say these really aren't a huge problem. I'm not saying they aren't powerful or anything.

    For the DP thing...that is probably a bug, so if that needs to get fixed, then it should be of course.

    But, these mines, while strong, can still be resisted with Power Insulators due to them being a shield draining effect. Plus I think they are boosted by Flow Capacitors (could be wrong), so if you haven't done that, they won't be as good.

    In PvE, most things have SO much shielding it matters little, and the things that truly do get hit well enough by these you can kill easily enough without them.

    In PvP, is, where most things do, they shine. They are powerful and very effective, but still only are mines. And only shield stripping mines. A good team is going to see and hear those mines the first time they are used, so any time after that, they know what to expect. On top of that, the person using them has to use a weapon slot, and potentially a BOFF slot to use a DP. Plus the 200 lobi cost to get them in the first place.

    They are powerful, but I think they have enough counter-balancing not to need the nerf bat. If anything, they might have some bugs that need to get ironed out.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I rarely run into them but yea I feel you they are real strong its a insulator fail I think.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »

    But, these mines, while strong, can still be resisted with Power Insulators due to them being a shield draining effect. Plus I think they are boosted by Flow Capacitors (could be wrong), so if you haven't done that, they won't be as good.

    this is not true. i had polie getting extends, he used tss an rsp with my 1 turrent to shoot to get it to spin. he had maxed insulaters with borg deflector and still it riped off his shields. even old sci strip never did that. also for a mine hat will just pwn all shield facing should not have a debuff attached to it.
  • webdeathwebdeath Member Posts: 1,570 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Personally, I wish I had them so I could test them out better and be sure on why they are so strong. But I don't have the Lobi right now.
    You think that your beta test was bad?
    Think about this:
    American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    broken1981 wrote: »
    this is not true. i had polie getting extends, he used tss an rsp with my 1 turrent to shoot to get it to spin. he had maxed insulaters with borg deflector and still it riped off his shields. even old sci strip never did that. also for a mine hat will just pwn all shield facing should not have a debuff attached to it.

    If that's the case then, they aren't resisting it enough.

    I don't mean what you were doing, I mean Power Insulators itself. If even with all that you can still rip shields off like that, then something needs to be adjusted somewhere. Power Insulators should help a lot more than that.

    I don't think they need to be totally nerfed or anything, due to their somewhat limited PvE usage. My thought is to look at toning down the shield stripping each mine does if you use it in a DP. Maybe also make them more need Flow Capacitors to be effective. I feel they should still be nasty if you get hit, but also that they should need some effort to be used well.

    I own these btw. Don't really use em in PvP, but I've still gotten a lot of good use from em regardless.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    If that's the case then, they aren't resisting it enough.

    I don't mean what you were doing, I mean Power Insulators itself. If even with all that you can still rip shields off like that, then something needs to be adjusted somewhere. Power Insulators should help a lot more than that.

    I think resists from Power insulators are working against these mines, however, these things are insanely powerful. With a spec in Flow Capacitors and consoles you can easily get over 1,000 shield drain per mine. Then if you have a dispersal pattern beta to work you can deploy 7/10/13 mines respectively (I believe). It's correct that the amount of time that these things are cycled is a bit much given how effective they can be. I'm not sure how Cryptic should address a nerf but I don't believe increasing the effectiveness of power insulators is the way to go given that it affects so many other things. These mines were a poor design. Remember these mines work like a CPB or Tachyon beam and ignore shield resistance from TSS and Extend and do straight up shield damage.
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Maybe also make them more need Flow Capacitors to be effective.

    Flow capacitors will increase their effectiveness.
  • edited January 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    rooster75 wrote: »
    I think resists from Power insulators are working against these mines, however, these things are insanely powerful. With a spec in Flow Capacitors and consoles you can easily get over 1,000 shield drain per mine. Then if you have a dispersal pattern beta to work you can deploy 7/10/13 mines respectively (I believe). It's correct that the amount of time that these things are cycled is a bit much given how effective they can be. I'm not sure how Cryptic should address a nerf but I don't believe increasing the effectiveness of power insulators is the way to go given that it affects so many other things. These mines were a poor design. Remember these mines work like a CPB or Tachyon beam and ignore shield resistance from TSS and Extend and do straight up shield damage.



    Flow capacitors will increase their effectiveness.

    dunno insulators suck if i can take a non specked kdg cpt with 0 skill in anything and suck a ship with 9 insulators dry of all power that might be a bit fail on insulators part... they do work for shield drain but i think the shear amount these rip off you just makes insulators look like a joke of a skill to speck into just like power drain does.
  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    dunno insulators suck if i can take a non specked kdg cpt with 0 skill in anything and suck a ship with 9 insulators dry of all power that might be a bit fail on insulators part... they do work for shield drain but i think the shear amount these rip off you just makes insulators look like a joke of a skill to speck into just like power drain does.

    I'd like to respond but I don't understand what has been written here. Under what conditions makes 50% resists from power insulators fail? Is it something like the old siphon drones that were broken and ignoring these resists? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about. :confused:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    This is why its unlikely they will get nerfed, they cost mucho dinero and I really dont see then going to tell people that forked over 200 Lobi for it and thats about 40 keys meaning 4000 Zen.

    I bought with real life money just to test them. im looking for a nerf so cash here is not a problem at all since npc have no resist. since they have no resist any nerf would not affect pve. but the fact i can walk up to a crusier on my escourt and spit out some mines with dpb1 and effectively rip off all shield facings is a big problem. you dont even need to spec flow caps. if you look at info (could be tool tip error) it list nothing to boost it. seems like nothing you do on skill spec will affect it. and for such low cost of giving up 1 turret the gains are so much better. also its an aoe as well. so if your in a ball well guess what? your whole team is left with no shields and a huge debuff for 7 secs of not repairing your shields. just look at shield tool tip after being hit by tact mines and place a tts 3 and extends during the debuff duration. its such bs since "sci" is replaced as shield stripper but a stupid mine.
  • polie05polie05 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I am speced in power insulators and with a properly setup bug you can run a dpb1 w/o losing anything. Thats a omeng3, crr2x3, delta, dpb1, ttx2. You lost one turret spot for the ability to take over 70% of shields. They do NOT parse as they do NOT do any damage. What they do is give you a VERY high negative shield regen. So run what ever you want, those shields will be coming down. As for "ZOMG IT COST SOOO MICH MONIES!!" I paid nothing for my mines. 4 days for grinding for keys was all it took. (and you do get some nice stuff from the boxes to re-coup the EC or maybe if you actually lucky you might get a ship to sell)

    So as none of you cared to read the full posts what one of the points is the face they go from a 20 second mine to 12 seconds. They could also use a small so that they will not take more than lets say 50% of shields down.
  • ocp001ocp001 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Dude read the description! Concentrated POW! Totally legit.

    Actually in all seriousness they ravage shields. The only reason I never built around them is fear of having them nerfed.
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The 7 second debuff is ridiculous.

    If they aren't willing to compromise on the values of the mine, then why not just make it a single mine instead and increase the cooldown and make them not work with DPB?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    broken1981 wrote: »
    you dont even need to spec flow caps. if you look at info (could be tool tip error) it list nothing to boost it. seems like nothing you do on skill spec will affect it.

    It does have a pretty good base but they are indeed affected by flow capacitors. Just mount a console and you'll notice the difference in the amount of stripping they do per mine. You'll just need to open up the powers tray to view the increase under the tooltip there.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    i tend to have over 100 insulators, and unless i get hit with a full dispersal pastern i don't feel anything. not sure if flow caps effects these, but no one with anything in flow caps has hit me with them that i can remember. sky high flow i could see being problematic, but i have not encountered anything like that.
  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    I think they are boosted by Flow Capacitors (could be wrong), so if you haven't done that, they won't be as good.
    broken1981 wrote: »
    you dont even need to spec flow caps. if you look at info (could be tool tip error) it list nothing to boost it. seems like nothing you do on skill spec will affect it.
    not sure if flow caps effects these,

    Provided a few screencaps to illustrate that flow capacitors DO INDEED affect these:

    http://http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/526005/pics/original/1366853.jpg

    Rule 62 console (+17.2 Flow Cap)+ Tachyon mines = -874 Shields per mine (w/DPB1 -6118 Shields)

    http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/526005/pics/original/1366852.jpg

    No flow capacitor console + Tachyon mines: -845.2 Shields per mine (w/DPB1 -5916 Shields)

    http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/526005/pics/original/1366898.jpg

    (4) Very Rare Mk 12 Flow Capacitors + Rule 62 console + Tachyon mines = -1,093 Shields per mine (w/DPB2 -10,930 Shields // w/DPB1 -7,651 Shields)
    i tend to have over 100 insulators, and unless i get hit with a full dispersal pastern i don't feel anything.

    By that response I'd have to question whether you are indeed getting hit by these mines from what I've seen in my own testing. It's either that or your opponents don't know what they are doing at all. Even at minimum with only 4 mines deployed (as long as the user is spec for flow caps) you're looking at over -3,000 shields when the mines hit. Even with 50% resists you should be noticing these especially when you consider how often these mines can be cycled. It's really difficult not to notice them when they land when they are buffed by dispersals. That's a lot of shield stripping despite a target having maxed power insulators. One could easily pull over 15k base worth of shield stripping with these things if you had the right boff arrangement and console layout. I could definitely see an MVAM having the potential to get some serious mileage out of these things.

    The thing is, these mines were not designed with PvP balance in mind. The only thing in game that we've seen as remotely as effective to use which ignores resists is pre-S5 Charged Particle Burst 3 which requires a higher cost. It needs a Commander BO slot, should be used with high Auxiliary power to be effective, and can not be cycled nearly as quickly as these mines can. Yes, resists have been added to the game since then, however, these mines are without a doubt an effective addition to any PvP build and all ships have the capacity to mount them at low cost. When you consider how potent they can be it creates balance issues when you also weigh in the cost of less power drain to weapons by doing so. Then, factor in the quick cycle time and that all you need is a Lieutenant BO slot to gain a decent buff and you'll have a pretty nasty addition to your ship. For most escorts builds it is well worth giving up a turret for. I would also say that it's well worth it for Cruisers to mount these mines as well. I can't wait till I start seeing full pre-made teams using these things. That will be fun indeed. I guarantee that there is going to be a lot of hate directed at these mines in the near future. It's a bit surprising there hasn't been more already. Nerf threads are a regularity on these forums even when not needed and yet these mines have mostly so far gone unnoticed. My guess is most people don't realize what the FX looks like and attribute the sudden impact of shield drain to something else or they are dying so fast they don't notice it.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    its hard to miss the effect when these go off. 1 or 2 effects nothing, but i was likely hit by someone who never speced into them at all. did get hit by a full dispersal pater of them yesterday, on purpose to check, and it took all of my shields that time :eek:
  • polie05polie05 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    hence how I have been popping you like a grape. It really does work, as we have been saying.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    rooster75, yes i am really amazed at the faact no nerf thred came up. thats why i made my own. these mines are so op and need a balance pass. im kinda pissed trics have the huge majority of post. these mines need to be checked. guess yeah we need everyone to start using these to TRIBBLE people off and come in to post. like i said i payed rl $ and i want these nerfed.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    its hard to miss the effect when these go off. 1 or 2 effects nothing, but i was likely hit by someone who never speced into them at all. did get hit by a full dispersal pater of them yesterday, on purpose to check, and it took all of my shields that time :eek:

    yes drunk, i checked these mines against rsp extends tss and team fort. all at the same time.this is why i made my post in the end. im not getting much support on this like i would have thought. seems people in sto pvp side have their own agendas. im looking for balance as a whole.
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You can actually out run these after they hit if you are moving fast enough. Or they have a chance to miss. I have noticed sometimes when they hit they do nothing at all then the next time boom no shields...
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    broken1981 wrote: »
    yes drunk, i checked these mines against rsp extends tss and team fort. all at the same time.this is why i made my post in the end. im not getting much support on this like i would have thought. seems people in sto pvp side have their own agendas. im looking for balance as a whole.

    well, they are just kinda rare and spendy to get. that bug with tach beam and their cooldown was present for so long because no one used both ever, and hardly anyone uses ether. its not wide spread enough to get anyone to really care about it i think
  • omgrandalthoromgrandalthor Member Posts: 364 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I have a set maybe I should take them in karrat so people can see how derp they are!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    please do rand. also dont forget they do have an aoe affect, fed ball anyone?
  • pug02pug02 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    These mines do not do any shield damage. We should keep this in mind. These mines do not appear in the combat log. They apply a negative shield regeneration on the people affected for the duration of the debuff. If every mine does a -700 regeneration per second over 7 mines, you will apply a -4900 shield regeneration on the target, per second. This is per shield facing! So in affect you are stripping off 19600 shields per second, not accounting for the base shield regeneration of your shields.
    This debuff will be placed on anyone that is with in the AOE of the mines. Therefore, if placed on the whole team you will be seeing a massive shield loss.

    What we haven't seen yet is a team using Gravity Well with 3 x DP3 = 14 mines x 3 = 42 mines = -29400 shield regen and a full Torpedo Spread. That would be 117600 shield loss per second. RSP won't help if they are not shooting at you.

    I have been able to get my mines to -840 regen using Flow capacitor boosts.

    Insulators should do a bit more against these mines, and maybe shield power level as well.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rooster75rooster75 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    broken1981 wrote: »
    rooster75, yes i am really amazed at the faact no nerf thred came up. thats why i made my own. these mines are so op and need a balance pass. im kinda pissed trics have the huge majority of post. these mines need to be checked. guess yeah we need everyone to start using these to TRIBBLE people off and come in to post. like i said i payed rl $ and i want these nerfed.

    Yes, I agree these mines need a balance pass. I also have these mines on 2 separate toons and wholeheartedly agree upon how borked these things are.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    pug02 wrote: »
    These mines do not do any shield damage. We should keep this in mind. These mines do not appear in the combat log. They apply a negative shield regeneration on the people affected for the duration of the debuff. If every mine does a -700 regeneration per second over 7 mines, you will apply a -4900 shield regeneration on the target, per second. This is per shield facing! So in affect you are stripping off 19600 shields per second, not accounting for the base shield regeneration of your shields.
    This debuff will be placed on anyone that is with in the AOE of the mines. Therefore, if placed on the whole team you will be seeing a massive shield loss.

    What we haven't seen yet is a team using Gravity Well with 3 x DP3 = 14 mines x 3 = 42 mines = -29400 shield regen and a full Torpedo Spread. That would be 117600 shield loss per second. RSP won't help if they are not shooting at you.

    I have been able to get my mines to -840 regen using Flow capacitor boosts.

    Insulators should do a bit more against these mines, and maybe shield power level as well.

    *blinks, re-reading that*...I'm a believer!...in that these need a balance pass.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Hmm...seems like mounting these plus any other mine (trics for lulz) would make things even worse.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    lol they do that as it is. full premades.
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited January 2013
    With Tric mines, the effect is pretty obvious not to mention common. The impact of these might be harder to determine, especially in a target rich (spammy) environment where it's tough to figure out what is even hitting you. They have this ridiculous notion that rarity is balance but that's nonsense. If these were more readily available, and they may become more common now the more people talk, it should become easier to expose the issues and rally support.

    The numbers I see here have helped me understand them better. That being said this is only one of a hundred or more things that I don't particularly care for.
    __________________________________________
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