test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

STO and accountability for evil players. Here's some options.

clamyfishstickclamyfishstick Member Posts: 53 Arc User
First off, I'm sure at this point most of you have experienced a player either not fighting at all in an STF or FA or other such group play. Or been in a fleet where someone joined, worked their way up, then robbed your fleet blind or kicked everyone or disbanded them. Or you've dealt with enough hate speech or political TRIBBLE to make you permanently turn off zone and local chat.

So with that said, I'm sure you also noticed that we are not allowed to "name names" in the forums or anywhere else it might actually be seen by people who care. To make matters worse, the Admins and Devs simply have no sympathy and do not care. this attitude is the real problem. What they are doing is no different than an exploit which the Devs and admin DO care about. so why the strict attacks on people out to do good while criminals are stealing and betraying and back-stabbing and costing you, your groups and your fleets all sorts of things? How is that fair? Just like the real world, it's not.

How can we fix this? Well, alone we can't. there are always going to be more evil people in the world than good ones, that will likely never change. But we as a community can hold people accountable for their crimes and evil deeds. I'm sure as always there will be a few people saying TRIBBLE like "it's your fault for trusting anyone" or "hahhaha" or even stuff like "It doesn't matter" well, as a human being with a conscience and morality, I have to say, the way all this is handled is simply intolerable and wrong. Not only that but goes against EVERYTHING Star Trek has stood for since its inception.

Now that the problems and my opinions on them are clear, Here's how we or the devs could fix them.

We can't name names - the most insane thing I've ever heard on the internet. Could you imagine if that was acceptable in real life? Imagine a cop trying to catch a real life thief but you couldn't name names... not to mention that the proof is recorded in several ways in STO... there's just no caring from the Dev team about it.

Well, the solution options are here -
A player reputation system. Microsoft has one... it doesn't work well, but I'm sure that if it worked like Foundry reviews, it might function to at least help people deal with bad players. Especially professional fleet thieves and non-combatants. I've seen people rob fleets then change their @name just so they could NEVER be held accountable in any way. The most we can do right now about that is PM the other fleet... but sometimes they were asked to do such things... so again, the lack of accountability in STO is atrocious.

Another way to deal with fleet thieves would be an Admin style solution, simply report said player, and have all damages to the harmed fleet reversed. Including stripping whatever the criminal made off with of anything they made off the stolen goods. even if it was just a few EC for common tribbles (yes, professional thieves aren't picky)


Another way to deal with the dead-beats who refuse to play in group-focused matches would be a simple vote-to-kick system. most MMOs have this feature... though it sometimes doesn't work for PUGs, it works enough to at least allow for the people who want to profit through the labor of others to fail. No one should profit without working for it. That's just unacceptable.


Of course a generalized way to deal with all the bad players/people at once would be a part of say STOwiki that advertises their @names and why they are evil. As this site won't even allow accountability in any form. Of course a site dedicated to just that wouldn't be bad either.


As it is now, the community response to evil players is just not right. I've been playing every day since the beta and I have seen EVERYTHING... trust me on that. I'm posting this with experience and for all the good people who see the injustice and atrocities committed in STO and by a dev team who chose to make a system so flawed and then make it so those of us who want justice can't even pretend they can even get near any.


I would love to see more suggestions and hear your opinions on mine. But I'm warning you, if you believe that things are fine as is, I'm just going to assume that you are one of the types of people I have mentioned above and will just ignore you.
Post edited by clamyfishstick on
«13

Comments

  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Like it or not, if you give someone permissions that allow them to loot your fleet, it's your own fault.

    It's harsh, it's not an exploit, but it's the truth.

    Secondly, enlighten us all how a player magically changes their account handle?
  • kamiyama317kamiyama317 Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I agree with you OP. If a player is harassing or backstabbing people in game, they should earn a reputation for that in the community. It only makes sense that we should be able to name names.

    /signed

    I hope the devs listen and change the rules accordingly.
  • pwebranflakespwebranflakes Member Posts: 7,741
    edited January 2013
    I've changed your title a bit because I don't think you have access to our GM records to see what action has been taken ;) If you have a concern, report a player in-game using the [?] on the minimap and the GM will investigate and take appropriate action based off the rules set forth in your TOS and EULA. Please note that you will never be advised on what the outcome was due to our privacy policy, but all GM reports are investigated and taken VERY seriously.

    As for naming and shaming, correct, it's not allowed, But your analogy of reporting a crime to the police is flawed as your peers are not the police -- when you report a player, you absolutely want to put the player's @handle in the GM ticket so they (the GMs, "police") can investigate.
    Like it or not, if you give someone permissions that allow them to loot your fleet, it's your own fault.

    It's harsh, it's not an exploit, but it's the truth.

    Secondly, enlighten us all how a player magically changes their account handle?

    This is correct -- if you set the permissions and invite someone, or allow others to invite to the fleet, this is completely up to your fleet and those who hold the power to do this. We've provided settings and options for fleets so they can manage their fleet how they would like.

    As for @handles, they can not be changed. In the past, the ONLY exception to this was if your in-game @handle and login name were the same, but those were all resolved with the merge with PWE.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=
  • clamyfishstickclamyfishstick Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Like it or not, if you give someone permissions that allow them to loot your fleet, it's your own fault.

    I know I siad I would ignore TRIBBLE like this specifically, but I actually meant to say this anyway...
    Yea, you are saying that getting to know someone for 6 months to a year and then suddenly they decide to betray you... is the fault of the person betrayed?

    Right, you should always see that coming. Your lesson would seem to state "Trust no one... ever." Because 1 person out of 100 will betray you? That's just stupid.

    Secondly, enlighten us all how a player magically changes their account handle?
    apparently you can't anymore.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes
  • quintarisquintaris Member Posts: 816 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Not naming names is because anyone could say anything about another player.

    Someone could come here and say "Man, that clamyfishstick is a coward. He queued for PvP and then sat there and did nothing once he realized we were fighting TSI". Is it true? No. But if there weren't rules against naming names, what's to stop the jerks from being...well...jerks?
    w8xekp.jpg
  • kamiyama317kamiyama317 Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You just reiterated the same set of rules we are having a problem with.

    1. Players can't do anything - they need to report to the GM's.
    2. The GM's never tell you what the disciplinary action was.
    3. Players may not name the names of those who rob/harass them.
    4. GM's won't bother with fleets that get robbed blind.

    Don't you see the problem with these rules? These rules protect the evil-doers, not the honest players.
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Like it or not, if you give someone permissions that allow them to loot your fleet, it's your own fault.

    It's harsh, it's not an exploit, but it's the truth.

    Secondly, enlighten us all how a player magically changes their account handle?

    What this guy said, other MMO's I've been in where this has happened have said it's the equivilant of giving a complete stranger your car keys and then acting surprised when they drive off with your car.

    Now if they'd used a hack or exploit to access the bank or promote themselves it would be different, but if you promoted them, you handed them the keys, you live with it.

    Also, without appealing to the GMs who will only change it in specific circumstances, (i.e. your @handle matches your login name) it's impossible to change your @handle.

    And on the subject of naming names on the forums, this is a rule on every single one of the MMO forums I've ever been on. Because if it's not, then people can say completely untrue things like the following :-

    @XXXXX is a thief and a liar, don't trust him.
    @YYYYYY is a STF AFKer.
    @ZZZZZZ made constant insults about my character and build in PMs.

    All of which are virtually impossible to prove without GMs breaking time from helping people with serious ingame issues and searching the various logs to prove it and can turn an entire community against a single person who's done nothing wrong bar being disliked by someone for some obscure reason.

    As for STO wiki, if the devs found a page advertising @handles of people who did these kind of things, then they'd have to request that the page was taken down or they'd remove the link from the main website and ban it being mentioned in the forums.

    And yes, STO does have accountablity, if you're found breaking the EULA or TOS then your service will be suspended or cancelled. And whilst it doesn't stop you making a new account, it does block your access to all the goodies you gained on your original account.

    There is no correct response to your so called evil players, for example whilst it's bad business practice and heavily, there's no law about someone applying for a management position, working up to the top of a company, then merging it with another company and running off with a top job at the other company so long as the merger doesn't cause a monopoly in that industry.

    Or for the AFKers, if it's the first time you've come across a certain AFKer how do you know that they haven't just had to run off because someones injured themselves or something (I had this happen in my first alert in CO and got all sorts of abuse over it, part of the reason I hardly play the game anymore).

    People are jerks, but the GMs are doing their jobs and the solutions you've proposed would cause more trouble than they'd solve.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I know I siad I would ignore TRIBBLE like this specifically, but I actually meant to say this anyway...
    Yea, you are saying that getting to know someone for 6 months to a year and then suddenly they decide to betray you... is the fault of the person betrayed?

    In a word: yes. Management and friendship rarely intersect for that very reason. As a fleet leader your primary responsibility is the well being of the fleet, not in keeping up happy personal relationships with every single one of your members. If you can't handle that, you don't belong in the big chair.
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~BranFlakes

    So because I disagree with you on a specific point, I'm suddenly a marauding fleet pirate? Way to get an honest conversation going there.
    You can use Zen to do that.

    No, you can't. You can use Zen to change your character's name, not the account handle.
  • pwebranflakespwebranflakes Member Posts: 7,741
    edited January 2013
    You can use Zen to do that.

    No, you can not :)http://sto.perfectworld.com/cstore?category=Services

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=
  • clamyfishstickclamyfishstick Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    I've changed your title a bit because I don't think you have access to our GM records to see what action has been taken ;) If you have a concern, report a player in-game using the [?] on the minimap and the GM will investigate and take appropriate action based off the rules set forth in your TOS and EULA. Please note that you will never be advised on what the outcome was due to our privacy policy, but all GM reports are investigated and taken VERY seriously.

    As for naming and shaming, correct, it's not allowed, But your analogy of reporting a crime to the police is flawed as your peers are not the police -- when you report a player, you absolutely want to put the player's @handle in the GM ticket so they (the GMs, "police") can investigate.



    This is correct -- if you set the permissions and invite someone, or allow others to invite to the fleet, this is completely up to your fleet and those who hold the power to do this. We've provided settings and options for fleets so they can manage their fleet how they would like.

    As for @handles, they can not be changed. In the past, the ONLY exception to this was if your in-game @handle and login name were the same, but those were all resolved with the merge with PWE.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=

    okay, then the analogy of the sex offenders list is more appropriate... they HAVE TO BY LAW tell everyone in a 5 block radius AND be on a public list. I find that strange since even murderers aren't treated that way... but hey, it fits. evil is evil.



    please refer to the other reply, you cannot predict human behavior... especially about greed or betrayal. I've lived a long time and have had a lot of betrayal out of no where in real life and in many games... some people are willing to play the long game and wait for years... or just one day decide they want to stop playing nice... sometimes for a reason, sometimes for no reason. Living life is hard enough without having to be cautious to the point of paranoia.


    okay, so maybe they've stopped allowing @name changes, but it did happen, and I did see it. I'll admit it was a long while ago though... glad it's changed.

    Thanks for popping in Brandon, you know I have the utmost respect for your abilities to be part of the community.
  • kamiyama317kamiyama317 Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    bluedarky wrote: »
    And yes, STO does have accountablity, if you're found breaking the EULA or TOS then your service will be suspended or cancelled. And whilst it doesn't stop you making a new account, it does block your access to all the goodies you gained on your original account.

    How do you know if there is accountability or not? The GM's have no transparency. They don't tell any of the players what they do to someone breaking the rules. Can you provide proof that there is accountability?

    You can't. Since you can't I will assume that there is none.

    People leech STF's all the time. I see disgusting things in chat all the time. It's been like this for years. I don't see anything being done about it.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    You are essentially asking for a system in which the Players become the Police ....

    That's never going to happen.

    If you feel so wronged by the system, then create yourself a website where you and your friends can "Name Names"...

    But don't expect any kind of support from Cryptic.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • pwebranflakespwebranflakes Member Posts: 7,741
    edited January 2013
    How do you know if there is accountability or not? The GM's have no transparency. They don't tell any of the players what they do to someone breaking the rules. Can you provide proof that there is accountability?

    You can't. Since you can't I will assume that there is none.

    People leech STF's all the time. I see disgusting things in chat all the time. It's been like this for years. I don't see anything being done about it.

    Because I am letting you know there is 100% accountability for actions that break our TOS and EULA. "Break" is the keyword.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=
  • clamyfishstickclamyfishstick Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Because I am letting you know there is 100% accountability for actions that break our TOS and EULA. "Break" is the keyword.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=

    We are asking that evil deeds be added to the TOS. Protecting the bad people is unfair to the good and the just. that is not too much to ask.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    How do you know if there is accountability or not? The GM's have no transparency. They don't tell any of the players what they do to someone breaking the rules. Can you provide proof that there is accountability?

    You can't. Since you can't I will assume that there is none.

    People leech STF's all the time. I see disgusting things in chat all the time. It's been like this for years. I don't see anything being done about it.

    And you never will...

    Just like in real life, the Police don't keep you informed about how they carry out their investigations.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • clamyfishstickclamyfishstick Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    daveyny wrote: »
    And you never will...

    Just like in real life, the Police don't keep you informed how they carry out their investigations.

    actually, criminal records can be looked up.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    We are asking that evil deeds be added to the TOS. Protecting the bad people is unfair to the good and the just. that is not too much to ask.

    Let's get one thing straight here:

    You are asking for deeds that you perceive to be evil, but that are not in fact against the TOS, to be deemed against the TOS.

    What's next, ninja rolling need? Having a character name you don't like? Beating you in PvP?
    actually, criminal records can be looked up.

    Are you seriously equating a criminal conviction with being involved in the course of a confidential investigation?
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    That's not true. Police (in the UK) are obliged by law and duty to keep you apprised of what is going on in a case. This is not only to make them look like they are doing something about it, but also to "put your mind at ease" about your safety. I know this (sadly) from my own experiences.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    actually, criminal records can be looked up.

    It is an offence for any police officer to look up a record of a criminal for any purpose other than that persons involvement in a case they are working on at that moment in time.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    actually, criminal records can be looked up.

    I'm not quite sure how you can quantitatively compare actual events in peoples lives, to the actions of a few miscreants in a digital game world.

    Perhaps it's time to take a step back and see how this is coming across?
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Some of these things aren't really evil. A little annoying but not EVIL. Murder is EVIL; griefing is annoying and swearing and trolling are just facts of life.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    It is an offence for any police officer to look up a record of a criminal for any purpose other than that persons involvement in a case they are working on at that moment in time.

    In the USA, the cops can sift through any and all kinds of info, they can get their hands on while investigating ...

    They just can't present any of it in a court of law unless the Judge deems it material to the case.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    That's not true. Police (in the UK) are obliged by law and duty to keep you apprised of what is going on in a case. This is not only to make them look like they are doing something about it, but also to "put your mind at ease" about your safety. I know this (sadly) from my own experiences.
    tc10b wrote: »
    It is an offence for any police officer to look up a record of a criminal for any purpose other than that persons involvement in a case they are working on at that moment in time.

    Jurisdictional differences ahoy!

    In the US, while in more public cases Police will give some updates on investigations, the primary concern is to not compromise the investigation itself. To that end you'll rarely have an instance where a PD discusses any kinds of details beyond "we've found some evidence, we're tracking some leads, oh hey we've got a suspect" etc.

    Even that much only typically occurs on big cases, the "day to day stuff" flies mostly under the radar in most instances.

    As for records, it's something of a hobby for some in the states nowadays to go hunting for skeletons in folks closets. Criminal convictions are a matter of public record, and as such can be looked up (in most cases, juvenile offenses for instance are oftentimes sealed).
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    That's not true. Police (in the UK) are obliged by law and duty to keep you apprised of what is going on in a case. This is not only to make them look like they are doing something about it, but also to "put your mind at ease" about your safety. I know this (sadly) from my own experiences.

    Do they actually give you all the gritty details of what they are doing, or just a general outline as to how the case is proceeding?
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • lolimpicardlolimpicard Member Posts: 309
    edited January 2013
    Op, this is your problem. It's you failing to make use of the options already in place.
    I also feel "evil" isn't what you're talking about.
    Such acts might be hostile, inconsiderate or abusive - but evil? Not really.

    Don't like what someone says? Free speech. Put on ignore list.
    Someone afking in mission? Their problem for the most part. Fail the mission or leave it; better yet: Don't do pugs.
    People stab your fleet in the back? Who gave them those privileges? Even if there's only one dude in charge - what's stopping him from closing the fleet? These kinds of issues cannot be addressed without removing the human factor.

    Closing thoughts:
    Who watches the watchmen?
    You can't have an official player-rating and name-naming because of this.

    If you want something then go ahead and create a third party blacklist of griefers and administrate it.
    You won't enjoy that new job.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    He's dead, Jim.
  • kamiyama317kamiyama317 Member Posts: 1,295 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Just like how we have moderators on the forums I would love to see in-game moderators who could keep things a little more stable for everybody.

    They shouldn't have GM powers, but the power to mute people who can't stop talking about politics or TRIBBLE or whatever would be nice.

    Or the power to kick people from STF's for AFKing would be nice.

    FFXI had players with moderating powers. They would have "their" character, and also a super-powerful level cap character they could transform into to help groups get through difficult areas. I believe they also had muting powers.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    Well yes, I expected differences hence why I added the UK brackets.

    And while criminal convictions are a matter of public record also in the UK. The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 makes most convictions spent after a certain amount of time and using said information in anyway against someone else is considered discrimination punishable under the law.
    If a police officer in the country was found to be giving out information in such a way over here he would face "misconduct in a public office" charges at the very least a breach of confidentiality. A person with a conviction has already been dealt with to the full extent the law requires.

    There are exceptions to this of course, but it doesn't mean McDonalds can or should know about an offence committed at a point in someone's life. The rationale behind this is to stop offences haunting people for the rest of their lives, especially in a largely unbalanced justice system.

    As someone has already said, this is all getting massively off topic and sounds to me like mob rule as opposed to proper procedure and justice.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    daveyny wrote: »
    Do they actually give you all the gritty details of what they are doing, or just a general outline as to how the case is proceeding?

    Well, I got informed that the person was arrested. What they were charged with, the conditions of their bail and when the case will be taken to court. I think that's pretty nitty gritty.
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    tc10b wrote: »
    That's not true. Police (in the UK) are obliged by law and duty to keep you apprised of what is going on in a case. This is not only to make them look like they are doing something about it, but also to "put your mind at ease" about your safety. I know this (sadly) from my own experiences.

    That's not even true, they're only required to keep the victim (or their parents or guardians) informed, I got involved in a case a few years back where material evidence (and illegal stuff to have at that) was first located on one of my iPods after I'd used it to back up the suspects data when repairing his computer and wasn't informed he'd been arrested by the police until I received a letter saying I may be called to give evidence.

    This is after it got out at work and I got accused of all sorts of stuff, so no, naming and shaming helps no one, there's a reason why police never publicly announce someone is a suspect until after they've been arrested because of the tendency for mobs to form, especially in the more severe cases.
  • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
    edited January 2013
    The Zone chat.

    I'm so glad someone mentioned this.

    I finally did have to disable it because I got so tired of seeing flaming taking place for political, racist, sexist, and anti-religious reasons. It happens in other locations too, but DS9 and Drozana are particularly bad for this. And frankly, the fact that it was SO constant gave me the impression that not just was nothing going to be done about it, but that it was explicitly permitted.

    In the end, it got to where I stopped all chat except for that of my fleet and its allies because we take our fleet codes of conduct seriously and I know I do not have to worry about harassment or generally having to feel like I am in a hostile environment.

    And that's NOT how it should be. True, ultimately one's fleet--if it's a good one--is going to be the BEST fit for socializing, but to have to be completely closed to everything else because of the disgusting conduct "outside" isn't right either.



    As far as a vote-to-kick option...I would not support that because if I knew that I could be kicked for trying to learn new things and failing, that would keep me from participating in a lot of stuff. I already don't do STF's because of the attitude I see on the forums and in zone chat towards newbies. Knowing I was vulnerable to a kick anywhere any time other than episodes and the Foundry, just because I messed up or an emergency happened...no. Just no.

    Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
    Proudly F2P.  Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
This discussion has been closed.