I am writing from the perspective of a mostly PvE player that recognizes the importance of PvP towards the health of the game. I may be making a fool of myself, or repeating past threads, but how can it hurt to say it again?
It's exciting to see how many people were interested in taking PvP lessons from more experienced players but there are major hurdles that are ahead of them, some of the same detractors that keep me from delving further into PvP than I have.
What I believe would benefit everyone if instituted:
Separate PvP queues into at least two groups at level 50. Give us Vanilla and Elite matches.
Vanilla matches would only permit players in ships that can be gotten without zen or lockboxes or lobi. All passives from reputation would be turned off, no armor, consoles, or weapons permitted that cannot be crafted or bought at vendors for ec, or be had from loot drops. This would eliminate the advantage from Maco/HG/Borg type gear. Aegis and Featured Episode reward sets would be useful again.
This vanilla style game play would guarantee a wading pool environment for new players and as fair as possible matches for mediocre types like myself to come to master the basics. Should a player rise to the top of the ranks they will likely want to move up to the elite.
Elite matches would be anything goes as is currently the norm.
Elite players should be eligible for a rating based on their successes. Lifetime wins/losses, kill ratio, healing per match, w/e the pvp community values the most. Use the best score from the player's best category so a Tank or Healer won't be penalized for not getting kills.
So rate every player 1-100. A player with no pvp experience is worth 1 point. A vanilla player that has some pvp accolades is worth perhaps 5 points per pvp accolade, let's say 25 points max. An Elite player has the max from vanilla plus their rating accrued in elite pvp matches.
Here's where you tie everybody together...
Have an event at least three times a week, so that NA, Europe, Asia have one in their respective playing windows. Pick a star system and open it up for a queue. Have the Fed and Klingon sides start with whatever is max for an instance. Allow no respawns. You get in the match the order you were queued.
Use the pvp ratings as a point value for each captain, if they are killed that is added to the other faction's score. This would make our best PvP captains take their rightful place among the fleet. We would need to protect them, or combine to take them out. They would be our heroes on the field as all our PvP ratings are visible above our ship during the fight.
If anytime before the end of the event one side runs out of captains and the other side completely holds the field the match is over. Otherwise at the end of the event, tally the scores. Give a grand prize to whomever scores the biggest total for the hour and a prize for whomever over achieves the most (with a minimum of five kills). If I as a vanilla player maxed out at 25 points gets killing blows on several elites, those kill points divided by my own value of 25 would give me the ratio used. This would also serve as a handicap for the best players.
To avoid abuse, those that enter the match with ships that would qualify as vanilla builds would be maxed at a 25 point value but if the same player showed up in a non-vanilla build they would have their elite rating of 26-100 points active. Any player without an elite rating couldn't enter the match in an elite build.
If desired, one match could be a free-for-all as mentioned previously, the other two could be attacking/defending a starbase like in fleet events. Fed defends KDF attacks, alternate shuffling that weekly. If your base is destroyed, no further friendly captains are allowed in the map and the match ends when you run out of ships or time runs out. These maps would further promote healer builds to keep the base alive and give points for healing. Give points based on total damage and total healing instead of kills due to starbase interaction.
To make this worth everybody's time and get their interest, have all the players of the winning faction that log in within eight hours of the match get a reward of 1k dilithium.
The high scorer from the match would get 4k and an accolade. The player with the highest kill points to personal value ratio would get their daily cap of 8k filled with an accolade. If that same person gets both honors give them a trophy and title with that 12k dil. Maybe they should get a special uniform unlock so we can see who they are on the ground. When we log in there could be a pop-up alert with the details, reward to claim, and names of the heroes from the last match.
I think this type of system would get everybody playing PvP at the level of their comfort.
Interest in ratings and possible rewards would inspire purchases of ships and gear.
Players would return to the game to take part.
So... Does this make sense?
Is it childish and uninformed?
Is it too complicated?
Does it not benefit PWE and their ROI so it won't happen?
Is it technically impossible?
I honestly don't know, just taking a stab here.
Regardless, I will say thank you to the devoted PvP players that have shared their knowledge to make even PvE types like myself have better builds and thus more fun.
so you say in order to participate i would have to strip my ship and BUY new equipment, when my ship's build is BASED on the bonuses which a set or two gives?
i don't like the idea
but - your idea of dividing the 2 categories is neat.
i think when cryptic introduces a proper FM's reward and Dill reward on the Fed side, more people will come to try some PVP.
my proposal: give us monthly resetted PVP rankings (in both categories) with a "monthly title" for the winners (which achieve a certain score) and a reputation with several costume unlocks/ship material unlocks.
so you say in order to participate i would have to strip my ship and BUY new equipment, when my ship's build is BASED on the bonuses which a set or two gives?
i don't like the idea
Do you mean in order to enter the hour-long events? If so, you wouldn't have to strip anything. You would have had to been in enough pvp matches previously to qualify as a 26 out of 100 score to enter with a non-vanilla build.
If you had all your pvp accolades and participated in elite pvp, i dunno via a tutorial mission or something, you'd be at 26.
The hour long special events will have every conceivable type of ship/build flying around in them, all shooting at each other. You will either enter as a normal vanilla build or an elite for the sake of maintaining a minimum/maximum values for what kills are worth.
If an accomplished elite pvper chose to enter in a vanilla build for the challenge of it or to increase their chance at the over-achiever accolade, they would be worth the max 25 points.
Hey, I was playing with "vanilla" equipement for all the times I was PvPing and I never felt as if I was behind. Sure, the green hue on shields and the regen were quite pissing, same for the KHG placate, but behind?
Star Cruiser with purple regenerative [Reg]x3 shiels, purple Positron Deflector with Em or Shds bonuses and some nice Combat Engine + 25/100(50)/25/50(100) power settings and I can TRIBBLE all over any set. And it costs me 150 000 EC more or less.
What is it with all this "sets are blah blah OP/whatever" those days?
I am writing from the perspective of a mostly PvE player that recognizes the importance of PvP towards the health of the game.
Absolutely spot on! The best part of PVP in this game is how relevant it is... you can make meaningful differences in the game world based on your performance... if you perform poorly you can lose assets... it really matters.
Oh wait. It doesn't. PVP is just a 5-v-5 simulation grind. It has always been disconnected from the rest of the STO experience. It's too bad it's this way, but until losing a ship actually matters (more than waiting 10 seconds to respawn), or until success in PVP can impact the larger game world, it's kinda passe.
Real or imagined is irrelevant, if there is a hindrance to the growth of PvP it should be dealt with I think. The fact that the boot camp got good numbers tells me there may be a great many intimidated players.
You may in fact have superior natural abilities, good manual dexterity, vision, and a better understanding of mechanics and bo powers. You are more than welcome to do elite pvp in an inferior build if you prefer. More power to you. For my purposes in the proposed weekly events I'd still rate you a 25 for having no frills. If that annoys you, slap something fancy on in one of your slots and get credit for your elite rating you've racked up.
As far as having a normal/vanilla queue...
(: Would you begrudge me for wanting to pvp against my peers who may be on average less skilled? Either way, if you were using a vanilla build as you say, you'd be able to queue up for either group.
I get my pvp kicks in Kerrat mostly because I can show up in inferior gear and not hurt a team if I fare poorly. I kill more than I am killed surprisingly (likely due to cloaking), but I notice when it takes three to five players to knock off a jem hadar. I'd like to try playing where those don't exist, or console spam, or shield-stripping pets for that matter. May I?
Absolutely spot on! The best part of PVP in this game is how relevant it is... you can make meaningful differences in the game world based on your performance... if you perform poorly you can lose assets... it really matters.
Oh wait. It doesn't. PVP is just a 5-v-5 simulation grind. It has always been disconnected from the rest of the STO experience. It's too bad it's this way, but until losing a ship actually matters (more than waiting 10 seconds to respawn), or until success in PVP can impact the larger game world, it's kinda passe.
I was kinda hoping that having PvP victories bring dilithium rewards to the entire faction of the victor would create some meaning. The normal pvp queues would grant standing and w/e pvp daily type rewards we already get, but the big game-wide events would get loot for everybody.
Hmph, make the entire game a PVP forum. Meaning, if someone bad mouths you, you can shoot them in the TRIBBLE! Or if someone bails from a PVE match 'because its just too hard' you can hunt them down in regular sector space and blow them into bits with your cannons. Oh, the possibilities are endless. lol
"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa (2006)
Oh yeah......love it when Space Jocks get up on their soap boxes and rant like someone cares. :rolleyes:
God, PvP is so spiteful and childish. Bratty taunts safely from behind keyboards and fail inducing comebacks. If I wanted this, I'd watch the Dev's fight over the last doughnut in the staff lounge.
The only meaningful thing I ever got out of a PvP match was when I left.
Regardless of how you feel about pvp'ers, they are the best. They are either the most skilled, most studied, have payed the most cash for shiny things or some combo thereof. I respect that. It's easy to remember the ones with bad manners. Put them on ignore, or I dunno, beat them?
My point is that if this were real, these pvp players would be our best pilots. Instead of hating on them let's reintegrate them into events where PvE types would fly alongside them for a common goal.
Regardless of how you feel about pvp'ers, they are the best. They are either the most skilled, most studied, have payed the most cash for shiny things or some combo thereof. I respect that. It's easy to remember the ones with bad manners. Put them on ignore, or I dunno, beat them?
My point is that if this were real, these pvp players would be our best pilots. Instead of hating on them let's reintegrate them into events where PvE types would fly alongside them for a common goal.
This. Typically the top end of any system has the potential to drive achievement over the entire system. This game lacks any serious PVE endgame so that leaves PVP to be the only venue where where a reasonable number of players are pushing performance against other players doing likewise.
It used to be called the NASCAR effect. A person viewing slightly modified Fords and Dodges racing about would have that same feeling of well being and fun when they got into THIER Ford or Dodge. The tech and resources automakers put into racing on the tracks trickled out to production autos in the form of technological improvements. It was all in all a win win type of situation.
Typically I can tell if I'm in a match with a PVP player. That player will be the one killing stuff, not dying, and tossing out heals.
I can also tell when I'm in a match with an idiot. We know what they toss out. Of course then I'll chime in and they'll realize they weren't the only five year old with a potty mouth in chat range. Put us both on ignore.
I would wager most of the players that are actually really good at anything wouldn't be the ones starting the pissing contest anyways. That's why I join in! Gotta win at sumthin!
But seriously for it all to work end game has to at least have the appearance of being achievable for a new player, and if we time gate the tools to PVP succesfuly without also time gating the PVP, the games in trouble.
Cheers! oh and TRIBBLE on you guyz ur all noobz:mad:
the only people i ever see talking trash and bashing people (from atop their soapbox) in zone chat during a pvp match are people i do not recognize.....and since i have about 150 PVPRs on my friends list, i think i have a lot of that community covered.... so i wonder who these people might be? hrm.....????????? yeah...
kudos to the opening poster, i would do the same thing for any PVE stf or foundry master....just give advice to make them harder, and give us more challenging content through the foundry....i think we would all really like that....
I really like your idea the ranking system would be good at the start but after a while it would be unbalanced. I recombined a ranking system like Starcraft has with different leagues but you all play in the same roster but it says which team is favored and which team is unfavored then when the underdog wins they get a huge boost of points but if the underdog loses they hardly lose any ranking
-"There is no such thing as an I win button!""Um, Sir. Whats this button that says (I win) for then?"
I really like your idea the ranking system would be good at the start but after a while it would be unbalanced. I recombined a ranking system like Starcraft has with different leagues but you all play in the same roster but it says which team is favored and which team is unfavored then when the underdog wins they get a huge boost of points but if the underdog loses they hardly lose any ranking
I think the kind of ranking I had in mind would require keeping averages for each player and giving them a rating relative to those averages, not necessarily arranging all pvp players in a list of who's number one best down the line. That is to say, you could have lots of people with the same rank. Perhaps I should have used the word score instead of rank.
There could be categories like:
Killer - Your kills to death ratio is 5.8 to 1, or 1.4 to 1. This would then give you a relative score. Cryptic would have to analyze the data for a month or so to see what is normal/good/exceptional to make ratings. If you are among the top five percent in kill ratio you would get a 75 rating making for a total of 100 in that category. You start at 25 if you graduated vanilla. If you are middle of the road your score for the category would be around 60ish.
Tank - You receive x amount of damage compared to having died y amount of times. If you are a hard nut to crack you might get up to 100 in this category.
Healer - This one would probably be how much you heal per match on average compared to your peers.
Trying out different builds would possibly be detrimental to one category or another, so maybe one should declare before entering everyday queue matches if they are playing tank/healer/or killer. Otherwise it would be near impossible to max out all three categories simultaneously. Some players are very versatile and might pull off the triple crown if they can declare what scores they want a specific match to affect. If you don't pick a category the results affect all categories by default.
During the weekly featured events your best score would be visible, the best killers, tanks, or healers would all be 80's to 100 and key targets. Most regular pvp'ers would probably be in the 50-75 point range. poor players with nice ships would likely fill the 26-50 range.
PvE players would be fodder flying around as 1's and 5's etc. but would be important as swarms and making sure there is no shortage of captains during the event window. If a PvE player queues up to help out and they get killed quickly it's not a big deal, they were only worth a point, but they are needed to fill the map and keep the fight going.
If Cryptic upgrade the Aegis or FE sets they will either end worse then they are now, or more OP then old Borg/MACO mix. So I think it would be better if they leave the sets alone. Besides - vanilla equipement is pretty good and one can tailor it exactly for his needs instead of tailoring his play around set bonuses.
For my part I'd prefer to fight in the "vanilla" to the "elite". The issue always comes down to what some consider "vanilla" others do not. This could lead to like thinking people to start "smurfing" just b/c they prefer to avoid all the power creep.
I think you'd find if there really was a "paupers" style w/only common gear/doffs and non lotto/zen ships and no rep system bonuses you'd find the better players would still pound the TRIBBLE out of the new players. Even at base level there's a huge difference between an unbuffed alpha and a normal attack, just as there's a huge difference between a defensively buffed target and one that is unbuffed. This means those who know when to apply buffs/debuffs/alphas will trash those who don't know how to properly set up a defensive buff or counter Sci debuffs such as VM and SNB.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
For my part I'd prefer to fight in the "vanilla" to the "elite". The issue always comes down to what some consider "vanilla" others do not. This could lead to like thinking people to start "smurfing" just b/c they prefer to avoid all the power creep.
I think you'd find if there really was a "paupers" style w/only common gear/doffs and non lotto/zen ships and no rep system bonuses you'd find the better players would still pound the TRIBBLE out of the new players. Even at base level there's a huge difference between an unbuffed alpha and a normal attack, just as there's a huge difference between a defensively buffed target and one that is unbuffed. This means those who know when to apply buffs/debuffs/alphas will trash those who don't know how to properly set up a defensive buff or counter Sci debuffs such as VM and SNB.
I agree that better players are gonna shine wherever you put them, and that's not a problem. I remember the days of leveling up my Klingon through PvP and those were good times that I miss. I don't mind getting beat by people with the same tool box of gear/ships/doffs. I have no excuse if they beat me and would be inspired to work harder. When I know I will never have the same gear as you, that's not inspiring.
When gear I could buy from the PvP store went away and people were wearing things from STF's and then later using gear from the zen stores, I stopped joining queues.
The incentive for better players not to hang around in vanilla matches with low level gear is that their personal PvP score would not progress past 25 there. Eventually one's ego would drive a person to go do some elite matches and progress/maintain their high scores. If you're willing to make yourself more beatable with lower level gear and just want a clean match, you're welcome to do the normal vanilla stuff for fun also.
This. Typically the top end of any system has the potential to drive achievement over the entire system. This game lacks any serious PVE endgame so that leaves PVP to be the only venue where where a reasonable number of players are pushing performance against other players doing likewise.
It used to be called the NASCAR effect. A person viewing slightly modified Fords and Dodges racing about would have that same feeling of well being and fun when they got into THIER Ford or Dodge. The tech and resources automakers put into racing on the tracks trickled out to production autos in the form of technological improvements. It was all in all a win win type of situation.
Typically I can tell if I'm in a match with a PVP player. That player will be the one killing stuff, not dying, and tossing out heals.
I can also tell when I'm in a match with an idiot. We know what they toss out. Of course then I'll chime in and they'll realize they weren't the only five year old with a potty mouth in chat range. Put us both on ignore.
I would wager most of the players that are actually really good at anything wouldn't be the ones starting the pissing contest anyways. That's why I join in! Gotta win at sumthin!
But seriously for it all to work end game has to at least have the appearance of being achievable for a new player, and if we time gate the tools to PVP succesfuly without also time gating the PVP, the games in trouble.
Cheers! oh and TRIBBLE on you guyz ur all noobz:mad:
Eh, I occasionally get into pissing matches when I'm in a trolling or argumentative mood. Otherwise I keep quiet :P
Besides, I usually just PvP in Ker'rat because I dislike the PvP queue system. Half of the fun in Ker'rat is taunting people who go into Ker'rat not expecting to PvP, and having them start QQing about Klingons :P
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
I agree that better players are gonna shine wherever you put them, and that's not a problem. I remember the days of leveling up my Klingon through PvP and those were good times that I miss. I don't mind getting beat by people with the same tool box of gear/ships/doffs. I have no excuse if they beat me and would be inspired to work harder. When I know I will never have the same gear as you, that's not inspiring.
When gear I could buy from the PvP store went away and people were wearing things from STF's and then later using gear from the zen stores, I stopped joining queues.
The incentive for better players not to hang around in vanilla matches with low level gear is that their personal PvP score would not progress past 25 there. Eventually one's ego would drive a person to go do some elite matches and progress/maintain their high scores. If you're willing to make yourself more beatable with lower level gear and just want a clean match, you're welcome to do the normal vanilla stuff for fun also.
You seem to have missed my point. I could care less about rankings. I'd much rather have all commons and avoid the crappy unbalanced 1/2 the time broken power creep gear.
I don't like that I needed to stop flying raiders and use KDF Fleet/Vet ships to be in the same ballpark as all the lotto-fleet-zen TRIBBLE that's come out the last year. I don't like that I have AMS in my inventory to respond in kind fashion should I get hit w/it or other annoying console TRIBBLE. I don't like the degree of power coming out of the reputation system including the 3% critH. I don't like how some Doffs (Techs) can make 1/2 dozen others basically redundant lesser choices. Do you get my point now or should I go on?
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You seem to have missed my point. I could care less about rankings. I'd much rather have all commons and avoid the crappy unbalanced 1/2 the time broken power creep gear.
I don't like that I needed to stop flying raiders and use KDF Fleet/Vet ships to be in the same ballpark as all the lotto-fleet-zen TRIBBLE that's come out the last year. I don't like that I have AMS in my inventory to respond in kind fashion should I get hit w/it or other annoying console TRIBBLE. I don't like the degree of power coming out of the reputation system including the 3% critH. I don't like how some Doffs (Techs) can make 1/2 dozen others basically redundant lesser choices. Do you get my point now or should I go on?
First off I want to be up front and say I don't agree with you. At least for the bit I highlighted. I'd also like to say that the Vet ship is the best battlecloaking ship the KDF has. It is. Really. Be happy flying it, I'm amazed more players don't.
I am curious though as to exactly what ship it was that you were flying, how you were flying it, and what you thought you gained by switching. And I'm not here to troll you and say your reasoning was faulty or any TRIBBLE like that I really just want to know what your experiences with the system were.
I just went from a heavy bop to a norgh myself. I'm not entirely sure if that counts as an upgrade. It certainly looks cooler. Just tossed that out there so you'd know what ship I was flying (or captaining if sophies looking). I've PVP'd a bit in both of them. And I'm IN that ship because of the same things you mentioned. And that's why I'm curious. I'd like to know how given what seems to be the same circumstance, we had different outcomes.
First off I want to be up front and say I don't agree with you. At least for the bit I highlighted. I'd also like to say that the Vet ship is the best battlecloaking ship the KDF has. It is. Really. Be happy flying it, I'm amazed more players don't.
I am curious though as to exactly what ship it was that you were flying, how you were flying it, and what you thought you gained by switching. And I'm not here to troll you and say your reasoning was faulty or any TRIBBLE like that I really just want to know what your experiences with the system were.
I just went from a heavy bop to a norgh myself. I'm not entirely sure if that counts as an upgrade. It certainly looks cooler. Just tossed that out there so you'd know what ship I was flying (or captaining if sophies looking). I've PVP'd a bit in both of them. And I'm IN that ship because of the same things you mentioned. And that's why I'm curious. I'd like to know how given what seems to be the same circumstance, we had different outcomes.
Cheers and happy flying!!:D
I'd mainly fly arenas. I used Heavy BoP for my Tac and B'rel for my Sci. This means there's less of a luxary to sit around cloaked waiting for a perfect time to fight b/c you leave your teammates down 1 or more players unlike C&H and Rat space. It also means vs a decent team you'll need serious consistant pressure dps or you'd never break through their defenses.
This past year's steep power creep on the ships (among other things) has meant vs a decent team in these newer ships I'd be lucky to get a 2nd volley off before having to retreat, it also meant there was a far shorter window if any at all vs quality players to apply damage. It also meant more Boffs et al were spent on surviving the retreat and less on CC/Debuffs. I've had pets w/more hull than my Raiders. W/all the added defenses CC/Debuffs are very much needed.
This past year's power creep also puts it on the players to self police, so I'd have to weigh what build I felt was too OP or if I felt is was OP to use it to demonstrate it. This meant swapping things like Tet Glider, Plas Leech, later AMS, various Doffs in and out. There were the many Doff issues throughout the year more recently aux2batt, but also 15 sec evasive cooldowns, ALL teams on mininum cooldowns, sbc doffs, shield distro doffs, etc. I've heard some interesting rumors involving ground Romulan Reputation Doffs and cooldowns.
The KDF Vet ship is the best BC option for KDF. But, it has its own power creep issues and isn't the same in terms of nimbleness or Boff variety particularly for Sci Captains. Also, the Sci Consoles leave it a lacking option for Sci Captains.
The Sci Brel used to be 1 sci console behind Fed Sci ships, it's now 2. It used to have a DHC fit advantage it doesn't anymore. Sci Boff powers have been diminishing in powers vs misc console/ship/doff abilities (eg Time ship, weaver web, ams, vet ship shield drain, pet spam etc).
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You seem to have missed my point. I could care less about rankings. I'd much rather have all commons and avoid the crappy unbalanced 1/2 the time broken power creep gear.
I don't like that I needed to stop flying raiders and use KDF Fleet/Vet ships to be in the same ballpark as all the lotto-fleet-zen TRIBBLE that's come out the last year. I don't like that I have AMS in my inventory to respond in kind fashion should I get hit w/it or other annoying console TRIBBLE. I don't like the degree of power coming out of the reputation system including the 3% critH. I don't like how some Doffs (Techs) can make 1/2 dozen others basically redundant lesser choices. Do you get my point now or should I go on?
My idea for two queues would give you just that opportunity, right? If you never stepped into elite matches again, that's up to you. I don't think elite matches would be abandoned by the entire community though. The only affect to you is your pvp score would not exceed the arbitrary number of 25 i suggested if you stay in the lower queue.
The free-for-all weekly fights would have everybody together and that'd be the only time you'd have to see console spam or lock box ships or w/e. It would be a demolition derby type event.
Queue without consoles/lockbox ships/DOFFs/C-Store items means, that less people will buy them. It means less money for Cryptic. So - it won't happen. EVER.
You can argue that in long term they will benefit as more people will PvP and more people will be willing to spend money. But the "long term" is the key. There is no such sentence in Cryptic vocabulary. So - forget about it.
I like you idea, since it lowers the curve at endgame, and saves Cryptic money by firing their useless QnA department, and gives us something to do without all the broken releases while someone in their free time at cryptic comes up with another "fix" for something that should have never existed in the first place.
Persitent PvP has been requested since release, and it can't be stressed enough, how much it would add to the game at any level.
I like you idea, since it lowers the curve at endgame, and saves Cryptic money by firing their useless QnA department, and gives us something to do without all the broken releases while someone in their free time at cryptic comes up with another "fix" for something that should have never existed in the first place.
Persitent PvP has been requested since release, and it can't be stressed enough, how much it would add to the game at any level.
not only has it been requested but it was actually included in the "sales" pitch since before the game launched.
I really feel like the Pvp players deserve some kind of recognition when they're out among the Pve crowd. You all have to do fleet mark events, reputation pve etc. and are grouped with pve players. I think you deserve some position of honor during these events. If not having your score visible, maybe team leader should go to the highest rated player. Setting you apart visually or giving you a spot of honor might entice more people to aim for that.
A fun thought I had today was if the PvP crowd could queue up and when there was enough ready to go, they would create a red alert just like the borg. This would allow the PvE types to get some dil or accolades while causing them to engage in PvP without really thinking about it.
So maybe have an NPC Admiral/General surrounded by 20 captains from the PvP queues. Let in twice as many random pve type captains. Don't let the ships that originated from the pvp queue respawn. If the responders to the alert kill the npc boss, either by elimnating all the pvp'ers first or just getting a lucky strike on the capital ship, they win. Everybody gets dil for participating, winners get accolade. If the Pvp camp holds out against two to one odds surviving the 12-15 minute timer, they get the accolade of "Sirius Sector Raider" or "Omega Leonis Infiltrator".
This would be a fun additional use for the Red Alert channel.
It would allow the better PvP players to get recognition beyond their quarantined areas, like this subforum lol. They would become notorious enemies server-wide like a true war ace should be.
Wouldn't it be fun if you were the one pilot that kept all the PvE players from winning?
To the OP. Making a Vanilla and Elite Queue would do nothing but further frustrate many. Because if you take a PvP veteran that knows how things interact and put him in a Vanilla match with say T4 ship and MKX white gear and he still stomps a mud hole into a newcomer that new comer is going to stay out of the "kiddie" pool. If you do not think that will happen challenge any 5 guys in the OPvP channel with a Tier Handicap you get your best PvE buddies and loadout in all the good gear you have and then let the "Vets" come in T4 ships with MKX whites and I guarantee it will be a 15-0 or 15-1 skunking. They need a ladder system that is tied into kills and wins and other stats for healers and CC guys so that you end up teamed will similarly skilled players. And also make the matches a minimum of 3 v 3.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
To the OP. Making a Vanilla and Elite Queue would do nothing but further frustrate many. Because if you take a PvP veteran that knows how things interact and put him in a Vanilla match with say T4 ship and MKX white gear and he still stomps a mud hole into a newcomer that new comer is going to stay out of the "kiddie" pool. If you do not think that will happen challenge any 5 guys in the OPvP channel with a Tier Handicap you get your best PvE buddies and loadout in all the good gear you have and then let the "Vets" come in T4 ships with MKX whites and I guarantee it will be a 15-0 or 15-1 skunking. They need a ladder system that is tied into kills and wins and other stats for healers and CC guys so that you end up teamed will similarly skilled players. And also make the matches a minimum of 3 v 3.
Not gonna stomp me if you're playing alongside me.
Eliminate being able to enter the "kiddie" queue as a team. Pug only.
The absolute biggest deterrent for newcomers is being rolled by a premade. Get rid of that.
Premades for private matches only. If you better players hang out in a lower level queue, then you will be evenly dispersed. Show up w/o all your PvP buddies or go get a room.
Console spam and being stomped by premades made me quit the queues. They were pre mades that used the spam to mass effect. I faced a team of players, from a well-known fleet, chaining some TRIBBLE I didn't even recognize cause i didn't have access to. Was probably antimatter spread mixed with w/e broken ability of the month. They won, I got one of our 3 kills, lol. They lost competition in the long run though as I doubt I'm not the only one who had enough of that.
Comments
i don't like the idea
but - your idea of dividing the 2 categories is neat.
i think when cryptic introduces a proper FM's reward and Dill reward on the Fed side, more people will come to try some PVP.
my proposal: give us monthly resetted PVP rankings (in both categories) with a "monthly title" for the winners (which achieve a certain score) and a reputation with several costume unlocks/ship material unlocks.
use the model the game "Bloodline Champions" uses
Do you mean in order to enter the hour-long events? If so, you wouldn't have to strip anything. You would have had to been in enough pvp matches previously to qualify as a 26 out of 100 score to enter with a non-vanilla build.
If you had all your pvp accolades and participated in elite pvp, i dunno via a tutorial mission or something, you'd be at 26.
The hour long special events will have every conceivable type of ship/build flying around in them, all shooting at each other. You will either enter as a normal vanilla build or an elite for the sake of maintaining a minimum/maximum values for what kills are worth.
If an accomplished elite pvper chose to enter in a vanilla build for the challenge of it or to increase their chance at the over-achiever accolade, they would be worth the max 25 points.
If you mean something else, please explain.
Star Cruiser with purple regenerative [Reg]x3 shiels, purple Positron Deflector with Em or Shds bonuses and some nice Combat Engine + 25/100(50)/25/50(100) power settings and I can TRIBBLE all over any set. And it costs me 150 000 EC more or less.
What is it with all this "sets are blah blah OP/whatever" those days?
Absolutely spot on! The best part of PVP in this game is how relevant it is... you can make meaningful differences in the game world based on your performance... if you perform poorly you can lose assets... it really matters.
Oh wait. It doesn't. PVP is just a 5-v-5 simulation grind. It has always been disconnected from the rest of the STO experience. It's too bad it's this way, but until losing a ship actually matters (more than waiting 10 seconds to respawn), or until success in PVP can impact the larger game world, it's kinda passe.
Real or imagined is irrelevant, if there is a hindrance to the growth of PvP it should be dealt with I think. The fact that the boot camp got good numbers tells me there may be a great many intimidated players.
You may in fact have superior natural abilities, good manual dexterity, vision, and a better understanding of mechanics and bo powers. You are more than welcome to do elite pvp in an inferior build if you prefer. More power to you. For my purposes in the proposed weekly events I'd still rate you a 25 for having no frills. If that annoys you, slap something fancy on in one of your slots and get credit for your elite rating you've racked up.
As far as having a normal/vanilla queue...
(: Would you begrudge me for wanting to pvp against my peers who may be on average less skilled? Either way, if you were using a vanilla build as you say, you'd be able to queue up for either group.
I get my pvp kicks in Kerrat mostly because I can show up in inferior gear and not hurt a team if I fare poorly. I kill more than I am killed surprisingly (likely due to cloaking), but I notice when it takes three to five players to knock off a jem hadar. I'd like to try playing where those don't exist, or console spam, or shield-stripping pets for that matter. May I?
I was kinda hoping that having PvP victories bring dilithium rewards to the entire faction of the victor would create some meaning. The normal pvp queues would grant standing and w/e pvp daily type rewards we already get, but the big game-wide events would get loot for everybody.
Regardless of how you feel about pvp'ers, they are the best. They are either the most skilled, most studied, have payed the most cash for shiny things or some combo thereof. I respect that. It's easy to remember the ones with bad manners. Put them on ignore, or I dunno, beat them?
My point is that if this were real, these pvp players would be our best pilots. Instead of hating on them let's reintegrate them into events where PvE types would fly alongside them for a common goal.
This. Typically the top end of any system has the potential to drive achievement over the entire system. This game lacks any serious PVE endgame so that leaves PVP to be the only venue where where a reasonable number of players are pushing performance against other players doing likewise.
It used to be called the NASCAR effect. A person viewing slightly modified Fords and Dodges racing about would have that same feeling of well being and fun when they got into THIER Ford or Dodge. The tech and resources automakers put into racing on the tracks trickled out to production autos in the form of technological improvements. It was all in all a win win type of situation.
Typically I can tell if I'm in a match with a PVP player. That player will be the one killing stuff, not dying, and tossing out heals.
I can also tell when I'm in a match with an idiot. We know what they toss out. Of course then I'll chime in and they'll realize they weren't the only five year old with a potty mouth in chat range. Put us both on ignore.
I would wager most of the players that are actually really good at anything wouldn't be the ones starting the pissing contest anyways. That's why I join in! Gotta win at sumthin!
But seriously for it all to work end game has to at least have the appearance of being achievable for a new player, and if we time gate the tools to PVP succesfuly without also time gating the PVP, the games in trouble.
Cheers! oh and TRIBBLE on you guyz ur all noobz:mad:
the only people i ever see talking trash and bashing people (from atop their soapbox) in zone chat during a pvp match are people i do not recognize.....and since i have about 150 PVPRs on my friends list, i think i have a lot of that community covered.... so i wonder who these people might be? hrm.....????????? yeah...
kudos to the opening poster, i would do the same thing for any PVE stf or foundry master....just give advice to make them harder, and give us more challenging content through the foundry....i think we would all really like that....
have fun kill bad guys
-thrusters on full-
I think the kind of ranking I had in mind would require keeping averages for each player and giving them a rating relative to those averages, not necessarily arranging all pvp players in a list of who's number one best down the line. That is to say, you could have lots of people with the same rank. Perhaps I should have used the word score instead of rank.
There could be categories like:
Killer - Your kills to death ratio is 5.8 to 1, or 1.4 to 1. This would then give you a relative score. Cryptic would have to analyze the data for a month or so to see what is normal/good/exceptional to make ratings. If you are among the top five percent in kill ratio you would get a 75 rating making for a total of 100 in that category. You start at 25 if you graduated vanilla. If you are middle of the road your score for the category would be around 60ish.
Tank - You receive x amount of damage compared to having died y amount of times. If you are a hard nut to crack you might get up to 100 in this category.
Healer - This one would probably be how much you heal per match on average compared to your peers.
Trying out different builds would possibly be detrimental to one category or another, so maybe one should declare before entering everyday queue matches if they are playing tank/healer/or killer. Otherwise it would be near impossible to max out all three categories simultaneously. Some players are very versatile and might pull off the triple crown if they can declare what scores they want a specific match to affect. If you don't pick a category the results affect all categories by default.
During the weekly featured events your best score would be visible, the best killers, tanks, or healers would all be 80's to 100 and key targets. Most regular pvp'ers would probably be in the 50-75 point range. poor players with nice ships would likely fill the 26-50 range.
PvE players would be fodder flying around as 1's and 5's etc. but would be important as swarms and making sure there is no shortage of captains during the event window. If a PvE player queues up to help out and they get killed quickly it's not a big deal, they were only worth a point, but they are needed to fill the map and keep the fight going.
As well, some would like some story driven PvP events or areas of gameplay like K as well as a league or ranking system.
R.I.P
I think you'd find if there really was a "paupers" style w/only common gear/doffs and non lotto/zen ships and no rep system bonuses you'd find the better players would still pound the TRIBBLE out of the new players. Even at base level there's a huge difference between an unbuffed alpha and a normal attack, just as there's a huge difference between a defensively buffed target and one that is unbuffed. This means those who know when to apply buffs/debuffs/alphas will trash those who don't know how to properly set up a defensive buff or counter Sci debuffs such as VM and SNB.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I agree that better players are gonna shine wherever you put them, and that's not a problem. I remember the days of leveling up my Klingon through PvP and those were good times that I miss. I don't mind getting beat by people with the same tool box of gear/ships/doffs. I have no excuse if they beat me and would be inspired to work harder. When I know I will never have the same gear as you, that's not inspiring.
When gear I could buy from the PvP store went away and people were wearing things from STF's and then later using gear from the zen stores, I stopped joining queues.
The incentive for better players not to hang around in vanilla matches with low level gear is that their personal PvP score would not progress past 25 there. Eventually one's ego would drive a person to go do some elite matches and progress/maintain their high scores. If you're willing to make yourself more beatable with lower level gear and just want a clean match, you're welcome to do the normal vanilla stuff for fun also.
Eh, I occasionally get into pissing matches when I'm in a trolling or argumentative mood. Otherwise I keep quiet :P
Besides, I usually just PvP in Ker'rat because I dislike the PvP queue system. Half of the fun in Ker'rat is taunting people who go into Ker'rat not expecting to PvP, and having them start QQing about Klingons :P
You seem to have missed my point. I could care less about rankings. I'd much rather have all commons and avoid the crappy unbalanced 1/2 the time broken power creep gear.
I don't like that I needed to stop flying raiders and use KDF Fleet/Vet ships to be in the same ballpark as all the lotto-fleet-zen TRIBBLE that's come out the last year. I don't like that I have AMS in my inventory to respond in kind fashion should I get hit w/it or other annoying console TRIBBLE. I don't like the degree of power coming out of the reputation system including the 3% critH. I don't like how some Doffs (Techs) can make 1/2 dozen others basically redundant lesser choices. Do you get my point now or should I go on?
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
First off I want to be up front and say I don't agree with you. At least for the bit I highlighted. I'd also like to say that the Vet ship is the best battlecloaking ship the KDF has. It is. Really. Be happy flying it, I'm amazed more players don't.
I am curious though as to exactly what ship it was that you were flying, how you were flying it, and what you thought you gained by switching. And I'm not here to troll you and say your reasoning was faulty or any TRIBBLE like that I really just want to know what your experiences with the system were.
I just went from a heavy bop to a norgh myself. I'm not entirely sure if that counts as an upgrade. It certainly looks cooler. Just tossed that out there so you'd know what ship I was flying (or captaining if sophies looking). I've PVP'd a bit in both of them. And I'm IN that ship because of the same things you mentioned. And that's why I'm curious. I'd like to know how given what seems to be the same circumstance, we had different outcomes.
Cheers and happy flying!!:D
I'd mainly fly arenas. I used Heavy BoP for my Tac and B'rel for my Sci. This means there's less of a luxary to sit around cloaked waiting for a perfect time to fight b/c you leave your teammates down 1 or more players unlike C&H and Rat space. It also means vs a decent team you'll need serious consistant pressure dps or you'd never break through their defenses.
This past year's steep power creep on the ships (among other things) has meant vs a decent team in these newer ships I'd be lucky to get a 2nd volley off before having to retreat, it also meant there was a far shorter window if any at all vs quality players to apply damage. It also meant more Boffs et al were spent on surviving the retreat and less on CC/Debuffs. I've had pets w/more hull than my Raiders. W/all the added defenses CC/Debuffs are very much needed.
This past year's power creep also puts it on the players to self police, so I'd have to weigh what build I felt was too OP or if I felt is was OP to use it to demonstrate it. This meant swapping things like Tet Glider, Plas Leech, later AMS, various Doffs in and out. There were the many Doff issues throughout the year more recently aux2batt, but also 15 sec evasive cooldowns, ALL teams on mininum cooldowns, sbc doffs, shield distro doffs, etc. I've heard some interesting rumors involving ground Romulan Reputation Doffs and cooldowns.
The KDF Vet ship is the best BC option for KDF. But, it has its own power creep issues and isn't the same in terms of nimbleness or Boff variety particularly for Sci Captains. Also, the Sci Consoles leave it a lacking option for Sci Captains.
The Sci Brel used to be 1 sci console behind Fed Sci ships, it's now 2. It used to have a DHC fit advantage it doesn't anymore. Sci Boff powers have been diminishing in powers vs misc console/ship/doff abilities (eg Time ship, weaver web, ams, vet ship shield drain, pet spam etc).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
My idea for two queues would give you just that opportunity, right? If you never stepped into elite matches again, that's up to you. I don't think elite matches would be abandoned by the entire community though. The only affect to you is your pvp score would not exceed the arbitrary number of 25 i suggested if you stay in the lower queue.
The free-for-all weekly fights would have everybody together and that'd be the only time you'd have to see console spam or lock box ships or w/e. It would be a demolition derby type event.
You can argue that in long term they will benefit as more people will PvP and more people will be willing to spend money. But the "long term" is the key. There is no such sentence in Cryptic vocabulary. So - forget about it.
Persitent PvP has been requested since release, and it can't be stressed enough, how much it would add to the game at any level.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
not only has it been requested but it was actually included in the "sales" pitch since before the game launched.
-rolls eyes-
Do you even Science Bro?
I really feel like the Pvp players deserve some kind of recognition when they're out among the Pve crowd. You all have to do fleet mark events, reputation pve etc. and are grouped with pve players. I think you deserve some position of honor during these events. If not having your score visible, maybe team leader should go to the highest rated player. Setting you apart visually or giving you a spot of honor might entice more people to aim for that.
A fun thought I had today was if the PvP crowd could queue up and when there was enough ready to go, they would create a red alert just like the borg. This would allow the PvE types to get some dil or accolades while causing them to engage in PvP without really thinking about it.
So maybe have an NPC Admiral/General surrounded by 20 captains from the PvP queues. Let in twice as many random pve type captains. Don't let the ships that originated from the pvp queue respawn. If the responders to the alert kill the npc boss, either by elimnating all the pvp'ers first or just getting a lucky strike on the capital ship, they win. Everybody gets dil for participating, winners get accolade. If the Pvp camp holds out against two to one odds surviving the 12-15 minute timer, they get the accolade of "Sirius Sector Raider" or "Omega Leonis Infiltrator".
This would be a fun additional use for the Red Alert channel.
It would allow the better PvP players to get recognition beyond their quarantined areas, like this subforum lol. They would become notorious enemies server-wide like a true war ace should be.
Wouldn't it be fun if you were the one pilot that kept all the PvE players from winning?
Would this be easy to implement?
Not gonna stomp me if you're playing alongside me.
Eliminate being able to enter the "kiddie" queue as a team. Pug only.
The absolute biggest deterrent for newcomers is being rolled by a premade. Get rid of that.
Premades for private matches only. If you better players hang out in a lower level queue, then you will be evenly dispersed. Show up w/o all your PvP buddies or go get a room.
Console spam and being stomped by premades made me quit the queues. They were pre mades that used the spam to mass effect. I faced a team of players, from a well-known fleet, chaining some TRIBBLE I didn't even recognize cause i didn't have access to. Was probably antimatter spread mixed with w/e broken ability of the month. They won, I got one of our 3 kills, lol. They lost competition in the long run though as I doubt I'm not the only one who had enough of that.