I dont understand why player would add a launcher and a beam bank to this build.
I have 5 relays with a potential of 150% increase in damage which would make my cannons do more dps up close then a launcher. The beam bank seems like out of the question.
Any reasons to drop to heavy cannons and add a launcher and a beam bank?
I keep a dbb forward and a beam array aft with no torpedo. I find that a bo3 shot can make a great difference if well timed, and it covers blank areas of the cannon arc with more power than my turrets alone. Also I gave up my second tac team1, and used bts1 there instead and that has had really nice results.
I'll sell you some weapons from New Romulus. Never fired, only dropped once.
Burst over DPS. You'll do more damage over 30 seconds with the cannons, but you'll do more damage in 1 second with an overloaded DBB and high yield torpedo. That has the advantage of giving much less time for a target to prepare, and potentially that 1 second burst can exceed a target's health, in which case the other 29 seconds of damage become irrelevant.
I still use the old DBB/2xDHC/quantum forward turretx2/(turret/tricobalt/cluster) aft setup. It's fallen into disuse since it's pretty demanding on bridge powers and if you're not in a t5 Defiant you're hard pressed to get 2 tactical teams in, and a lot of people consider it needlessly complex. I use it solely because there are so many people who can blast away at a sphere and barely chip away its shields, and being able to come in full speed, vaporize it in two hits, and continue on my way like it wasn't there is my way of telling them they're slow.
I run 4 beam arrays and 3 torps on my escort, Almost never destroyed almost always top in dps because my dps is on target 100% of the time
its easy to change from crowd control Bfaw to BO from TS to THY so with minor boff changes i can set up for kit elite or infecte or SB24 in less than a minute
you lose a lot of overall dps respawning
If the enemy will let you sit at range 3 and blast away cannons are much superior
last word
whatever combo you have the most fun with is the best
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Because sustained DPS capability on paper is not the "be all, end all" of escort builds, and torpedoes and dual beam banks can do higher single-burst damage.
Your hull may not be able to withstand going toe-to-toe with every adversary long enough, or you may not be able to stay pointed directly at the opponent in the narrow cannon arc long enough, for your almighty sustained DPS to seal the deal for you. And while cannons can be decent against bare hull, there is no comparison with the kinetic damage of a torpedo.
Because sustained DPS capability on paper is not the "be all, end all" of escort builds, and torpedoes and dual beam banks can do higher single-burst damage.
Your hull may not be able to withstand going toe-to-toe with every adversary long enough, or you may not be able to stay pointed directly at the opponent in the narrow cannon arc long enough, for your almighty sustained DPS to seal the deal for you. And while cannons can be decent against bare hull, there is no comparison with the kinetic damage of a torpedo.
In theory it SHOULD IF you have tanks and healers, you use threat reduction and they use threat control and threat increasing consoles.
I don't depend on anyone else, because most PUG teams are a useless cluster****. So, I must withstand damage, heal myself, deal varied types and levels of damage (while dealing with the aggro that draws), and still be able to sprint out of firing range before I pop. Also, other than a little console swapping, I do not specialize my builds to the sort of "play" I'm doing. I do just fine in every setting, so long as I keep my brain in the game. In my view, no one area of the game is worth a specialized build at the expense of all others.
That depends on the type of sustained fight. "Decloak, alpha strike, sprint out of firing range, rinse and repeat" absolutely is a variety of "sustained fight," and does not lend itself to relying entirely on DPS.
Somewhat off, but... assuming a pure energy build and a beam boat, you put a DBB up front to replace the torpedo, is it even possible to get the DBB to consume beam overload first before any of the arrays? I don't see it possible, not after playing with it.
I guess, put the DBB on auto fire and take the arrays off auto fire, but that is way akward... that's the only way I found.
Fore:
Dual Beam Bank
2 Dual Heavy Cannons
Torpedo Launcher
Aft:
2 Turrets
Torpedo Launcher (though I'm considering trying out a mine launcher on the rear and see how that works)
With the boff ability Cannon Scatter Volley 2, it works for turrets and cannons. And since turrets can fire no matter how your ship is facing the enemy, that means I have 2 DHC and 2 Turrets firing like crazy with the front of my ship pointed right at the enemies as well as the beam bank and front torpedo with Torpedo Spread 2. Just bullets and torpedoes everywhere. Mwuahahaha. I love it.
But to each their own. You could just try out various types of weapon combos until you find something that suits your play style.
Somewhat off, but... assuming a pure energy build and a beam boat, you put a DBB up front to replace the torpedo, is it even possible to get the DBB to consume beam overload first before any of the arrays? I don't see it possible, not after playing with it.
Put the DBB in your first weapons slot. Beam Overload fires from the first beam that can hit your target, so as long as your target is within the DBB's firing arc you'll always have an Overloaded DBB.
Put the DBB in your first weapons slot. Beam Overload fires from the first beam that can hit your target, so as long as your target is within the DBB's firing arc you'll always have an Overloaded DBB.
Awesome, will try it. So, it's first on the left, fourth on the right? (Odyssey) thanks!
awhile back before the forums took a hideous transformation, there was a very good thread by one poster here that charted the damage.
He had a graph, proving that the best Damage pound for pound were indeed Dual Heavy Cannons. The thread is in the archives somewhere. I'll stick to my old faithfuls where I can tear hulls to shreds.
Yes, they have 360 degrees firing arcs, but now I have 3 360 degree firing arc spitball guns.
Mounting a DBB front and an Array aft will keep those shields my cannons just hammered down while I maneuver for another attack run.
The occasional BA:O shots will completely strip a ships shields and allow my cannons and torpedoes hull access.
Turrets are used on the aft slots because they benefit from Cannon abilities, and because they fire forward alongside your primary weapons. You should never be concerned about what damage your Escort is doing with only its Aft weapons -- it's an Escort, you should be firing from the Fore as much as possible (the Subspace Jump console helps with this).
If you start mixing cannon and beam abilities, then your ship starts to lose its focus. A loss of focus is a loss of efficiency, and a loss of efficiency is a loss of DPS. What happens is, your Beam abilities only boost a few of your weapons, and your Cannon abilities boost the other small number. Depending on your Boff ability loadout, this also means sacrificing abilities like Attack Patterns and Tactical Team for extra Beam abilities.
I don't want to discourage people from experimenting, but I'm very skeptical that beams have any real role on an Escort.
In pvp you are locked into very tight choices, you only deviate the set path in finding out what they are.
Whereas in pve nothing really matters, you can do whatever you want and get away with nearly anything.
To me personally I am all about animations and soundeffects.
If I like the item I don't care it's not the most optimal stats and I am losing dps.
For example, playing ground I often use tos weapons and roam about with a flashlight knowing yes I lose an item slot and dps doing it. (ofc going for optional I suit up)
I don't want to discourage people from experimenting, but I'm very skeptical that beams have any real role on an Escort.
In terms of dual beam banks, where else would they go? Science ships need to dedicate a lot of their power to auxiliary (which usually pulls out of weapons) so their science powers... only tickle instead of doing absolutely nothing. Cruisers aren't designed to face their enemy down.
That leaves...? Escorts! And birds of prey.
Joined: January 2010
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
awhile back before the forums took a hideous transformation, there was a very good thread by one poster here that charted the damage.
He had a graph, proving that the best Damage pound for pound were indeed Dual Heavy Cannons. The thread is in the archives somewhere. I'll stick to my old faithfuls where I can tear hulls to shreds.
but... is it still true? I always have to wonder that about old info....
but... is it still true? I always have to wonder that about old info....
True on paper does not mean true in practice. Sure, dual heavy cannons will do more sustained damage over time, IF you are able to keep them pointed at your target constantly and IF your sustained damage isn't frequently interrupted by respawn timers. Since neither will be the case 100% of the time, I say a decent spike damage capability is also needed. I can't tell you how many times my Defiant has rolled up on a group whittling away at a Cube or a Negh'var, and I finish it off with a 20-30k critical hit from my Dual Antiproton Beam Bank. Better average damage isn't much help if you keep dying and giving your target a chance to heal.
It's been a while since I've played my Tac toon who has the escort, but I like having the beam banks in the rear (rather than turrets). Then I just give a couple of beam weapon specific abilities to one of my Boffs... Fire At Will and a couple subsystem targeting (Weapon and Shield).
The Fire At Will is more so for my survivability against situations where I'm facing down an enemy that fires the slow, but massive damage dealing Torp that can be shot down.
The subsystem targeting I get off usually after the first pass, either to reduce how fast their shields are regening while I'm coming about (while still dealing better damage than turrets) or as something else to hit them with while waiting for the shield subsystem targeting cool down to expire. :P
In terms of dual beam banks, where else would they go? Science ships need to dedicate a lot of their power to auxiliary (which usually pulls out of weapons) so their science powers... only tickle instead of doing absolutely nothing. Cruisers aren't designed to face their enemy down.
That leaves...? Escorts! And birds of prey.
I always figured dual beam banks were designed for Science ships. They have a high enough turn rate, and with a higher base damage, they'd get better results from those DBB than regular Beam Arrays.
I'm not a Science captain and I've never flown a Science ship, so obviously I'm no expert.
True on paper does not mean true in practice. Sure, dual heavy cannons will do more sustained damage over time, IF you are able to keep them pointed at your target constantly and IF your sustained damage isn't frequently interrupted by respawn timers. Since neither will be the case 100% of the time, I say a decent spike damage capability is also needed. I can't tell you how many times my Defiant has rolled up on a group whittling away at a Cube or a Negh'var, and I finish it off with a 20-30k critical hit from my Dual Antiproton Beam Bank. Better average damage isn't much help if you keep dying and giving your target a chance to heal.
In PVE, it is so easy to keep your forward weapons on-target in an Escort. If you're having a tough time keeping your guns pointed at your target, then you're probably not flying your ship properly. The same is true if you find yourself dying so often that you're planning your entire strategy around doing spike damage every 30 seconds or so -- you should not be dying that much, and if you are, either you're doing something wrong, or you're just in a really bad group.
It's also really easy to get high crit numbers with Cannons in an Escort, stacking your Attack Patterns with Cannon abilities. In fact, it is mathematically impossible for you to get higher Spike damage with a DBB than with a Dual Heavy Cannon, as the base damage on the DHC is way higher.
In PVE, it is so easy to keep your forward weapons on-target in an Escort. If you're having a tough time keeping your guns pointed at your target, then you're probably not flying your ship properly.
Here we go with the smug d-baggery. Sorry, I don't consider "sitting motionless like an unmanned weapons platform" to be flying at all, and when you turn out of your firing arc you are dealing ZERO damage.
It's also really easy to get high crit numbers with Cannons in an Escort, stacking your Attack Patterns with Cannon abilities.
At the expense of other capabilities. I'm not interested in a "DPS above all else" build, and I don't need the advice. I do just fine.
The way I see it, if the DBB's in it's firing cone, there's no reason cannons shouldn't be too.
I occasionally run a DBB on my Tor'Kaht, but it was never for effectiveness. I know my effectiveness comes from cannons. It was because the DBB looked cool while firing with the cannons.
I've recently discovered that quad cannons look even cooler and are even more effective.
Here we go with the smug d-baggery. Sorry, I don't consider "sitting motionless like an unmanned weapons platform" to be flying at all, and when you turn out of your firing arc you are dealing ZERO damage.
You're the smug one if you can't take any advice, man. I don't "sit motionless like an unmanned weapons platform" when I fly -- I'll do fly-bys, throttle back for a tighter turn, and then hammer away with my cannons. It's not hard.
When I'm fighting a Cube, it's actually really easy to keep up at max speed and fly circles around the top section, keeping my cannons on it pretty much 100% of the time.
Also, turrets should still be firing even while you're turning around, and believe it or not, they do not do "zero" damage.
At the expense of other capabilities. I'm not interested in a "DPS above all else" build, and I don't need the advice. I do just fine.
At the expense of what capabilities? Attack Patterns and Cannon skills are basic escort stuff. If you're filling up your Boffs with things that aren't Attack Patterns, then you are sacrificing Attack Patterns, not the other way around.
There's a wide range between "doing just fine" and "doing very well". As I said, if you're dying so often that your entire strategy is built around it, then you're not actually doing just fine at all. You need to take a look at what your Science and Engineering boffs are bringing to the table -- fill out those skills with Transfer Shield Strength, Rotate Shield Frequency, Hazard Emitters, and Emergency Power to Shields, and then use them. I fly a Defiant-R and I rarely blow up running Elite STFs, unless I get a really bad PUG.
I'm not trying to be Elitist here, I'm just saying... it sounds to me like you might be having some problems that you're trying to ignore rather than fix.
canons are the best game weapon and thets because they have lot more useful skills rapid fire and scatter volley are lot more useful then beam skills ,i wish they putted some good skills for beam as canons got but they didnt so escorts are the best ships ,mostly they are hard to kill almost as any of cruisers and thy do lot more damage
Gentlemen, please. It's all preference really and has a lot to do with whether you PvP or not. Bigger numbers doesn't always better effect. I suggest you try it, and if you like it stick with it, otherwise play what you think is best. My advice is to go for a torp or a DBB, at the very least having some beams makes your ship feel more Star Trek-y.
It's also really easy to get high crit numbers with Cannons in an Escort, stacking your Attack Patterns with Cannon abilities. In fact, it is mathematically impossible for you to get higher Spike damage with a DBB than with a Dual Heavy Cannon, as the base damage on the DHC is way higher.
Yes, unless you use abilities. When you can crit for 75k+ with a DHC let me know and I'll swap my DBB out.
I fear players will argue until the servers go offline about cannons or beams, efficient builds or fun builds blah blah blah. At the end of the day it is up to the player what they fly and it in what configuration.
I like the idea, I'll probably try it out at some point - gives me a chance to use my existing beam abilities on top of some cannon specific ones. As long as you stick to the same energy type I'm hard pressed to believe that the difference in damage would pose a real problem.
Comments
Torps are fitted on ALL Starfleet escorts as standard
A beam bank has higher DPE than a dual cannon
DPS is a bad measure
I still use the old DBB/2xDHC/quantum forward turretx2/(turret/tricobalt/cluster) aft setup. It's fallen into disuse since it's pretty demanding on bridge powers and if you're not in a t5 Defiant you're hard pressed to get 2 tactical teams in, and a lot of people consider it needlessly complex. I use it solely because there are so many people who can blast away at a sphere and barely chip away its shields, and being able to come in full speed, vaporize it in two hits, and continue on my way like it wasn't there is my way of telling them they're slow.
I run 4 beam arrays and 3 torps on my escort, Almost never destroyed almost always top in dps because my dps is on target 100% of the time
its easy to change from crowd control Bfaw to BO from TS to THY so with minor boff changes i can set up for kit elite or infecte or SB24 in less than a minute
you lose a lot of overall dps respawning
If the enemy will let you sit at range 3 and blast away cannons are much superior
last word
whatever combo you have the most fun with is the best
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Your hull may not be able to withstand going toe-to-toe with every adversary long enough, or you may not be able to stay pointed directly at the opponent in the narrow cannon arc long enough, for your almighty sustained DPS to seal the deal for you. And while cannons can be decent against bare hull, there is no comparison with the kinetic damage of a torpedo.
Burst is less meaningful in a sustained fight.
One problem I have with the forums is the attempt to have "one build optimized for everything."
If you completely and totally exclude one or more styles of play (STFs, Fleet Actions, PvP, or soloing) you'll see a shift in what's best.
And a good pilot can make most good builds work in most settings.
But the problem we always have in discussing builds is that whenever someone suggests one, it goes like this:
"That build is awful for (content type)."
"I never play (content type)."
"But you could have a build that is reasonably good in all content types."
"But I never play (content type)!"
"Never? Really? You've never played that?"
"I did six months ago/right after launch/maybe once a month for awhile."
"Then you should have a build that is functional in (content type)."
In theory it SHOULD IF you have tanks and healers, you use threat reduction and they use threat control and threat increasing consoles.
It really depends.
That depends on the type of sustained fight. "Decloak, alpha strike, sprint out of firing range, rinse and repeat" absolutely is a variety of "sustained fight," and does not lend itself to relying entirely on DPS.
Or everybody could fly ships built for both offense and defense in which case they can take care of their own health and wellbeing. Just saying.
I guess, put the DBB on auto fire and take the arrays off auto fire, but that is way akward... that's the only way I found.
Yes, they have 360 degrees firing arcs, but now I have 3 360 degree firing arc spitball guns.
Mounting a DBB front and an Array aft will keep those shields my cannons just hammered down while I maneuver for another attack run.
The occasional BA:O shots will completely strip a ships shields and allow my cannons and torpedoes hull access.
Fore:
Dual Beam Bank
2 Dual Heavy Cannons
Torpedo Launcher
Aft:
2 Turrets
Torpedo Launcher (though I'm considering trying out a mine launcher on the rear and see how that works)
With the boff ability Cannon Scatter Volley 2, it works for turrets and cannons. And since turrets can fire no matter how your ship is facing the enemy, that means I have 2 DHC and 2 Turrets firing like crazy with the front of my ship pointed right at the enemies as well as the beam bank and front torpedo with Torpedo Spread 2. Just bullets and torpedoes everywhere. Mwuahahaha. I love it.
But to each their own. You could just try out various types of weapon combos until you find something that suits your play style.
But Sometimes I don't want to carry heals on My Escort they take up too much space.
Sometimes I only want to play like this^^^^^^^^^
Awesome, will try it. So, it's first on the left, fourth on the right? (Odyssey) thanks!
He had a graph, proving that the best Damage pound for pound were indeed Dual Heavy Cannons. The thread is in the archives somewhere. I'll stick to my old faithfuls where I can tear hulls to shreds.
Turrets are used on the aft slots because they benefit from Cannon abilities, and because they fire forward alongside your primary weapons. You should never be concerned about what damage your Escort is doing with only its Aft weapons -- it's an Escort, you should be firing from the Fore as much as possible (the Subspace Jump console helps with this).
If you start mixing cannon and beam abilities, then your ship starts to lose its focus. A loss of focus is a loss of efficiency, and a loss of efficiency is a loss of DPS. What happens is, your Beam abilities only boost a few of your weapons, and your Cannon abilities boost the other small number. Depending on your Boff ability loadout, this also means sacrificing abilities like Attack Patterns and Tactical Team for extra Beam abilities.
I don't want to discourage people from experimenting, but I'm very skeptical that beams have any real role on an Escort.
In pvp you are locked into very tight choices, you only deviate the set path in finding out what they are.
Whereas in pve nothing really matters, you can do whatever you want and get away with nearly anything.
To me personally I am all about animations and soundeffects.
If I like the item I don't care it's not the most optimal stats and I am losing dps.
For example, playing ground I often use tos weapons and roam about with a flashlight knowing yes I lose an item slot and dps doing it. (ofc going for optional I suit up)
That leaves...? Escorts! And birds of prey.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
My character Tsin'xing
True on paper does not mean true in practice. Sure, dual heavy cannons will do more sustained damage over time, IF you are able to keep them pointed at your target constantly and IF your sustained damage isn't frequently interrupted by respawn timers. Since neither will be the case 100% of the time, I say a decent spike damage capability is also needed. I can't tell you how many times my Defiant has rolled up on a group whittling away at a Cube or a Negh'var, and I finish it off with a 20-30k critical hit from my Dual Antiproton Beam Bank. Better average damage isn't much help if you keep dying and giving your target a chance to heal.
The Fire At Will is more so for my survivability against situations where I'm facing down an enemy that fires the slow, but massive damage dealing Torp that can be shot down.
The subsystem targeting I get off usually after the first pass, either to reduce how fast their shields are regening while I'm coming about (while still dealing better damage than turrets) or as something else to hit them with while waiting for the shield subsystem targeting cool down to expire. :P
I always figured dual beam banks were designed for Science ships. They have a high enough turn rate, and with a higher base damage, they'd get better results from those DBB than regular Beam Arrays.
I'm not a Science captain and I've never flown a Science ship, so obviously I'm no expert.
In PVE, it is so easy to keep your forward weapons on-target in an Escort. If you're having a tough time keeping your guns pointed at your target, then you're probably not flying your ship properly. The same is true if you find yourself dying so often that you're planning your entire strategy around doing spike damage every 30 seconds or so -- you should not be dying that much, and if you are, either you're doing something wrong, or you're just in a really bad group.
It's also really easy to get high crit numbers with Cannons in an Escort, stacking your Attack Patterns with Cannon abilities. In fact, it is mathematically impossible for you to get higher Spike damage with a DBB than with a Dual Heavy Cannon, as the base damage on the DHC is way higher.
Here we go with the smug d-baggery. Sorry, I don't consider "sitting motionless like an unmanned weapons platform" to be flying at all, and when you turn out of your firing arc you are dealing ZERO damage.
At the expense of other capabilities. I'm not interested in a "DPS above all else" build, and I don't need the advice. I do just fine.
I occasionally run a DBB on my Tor'Kaht, but it was never for effectiveness. I know my effectiveness comes from cannons. It was because the DBB looked cool while firing with the cannons.
I've recently discovered that quad cannons look even cooler and are even more effective.
Quad disruptor cannons
3 fleet disruptor DHCs
4 CrtHx2 disruptor turrets
Highest damage setup I've ever run. And it's hilarious how fast it shreds things.
Now, I know this is an escort thread and CCs aren't escorts, but still.
I may go back to a DBB with BO3 because having a 30k spike helped sometimes, but the pure DPS of an all-cannon build helps far more often.
You're the smug one if you can't take any advice, man. I don't "sit motionless like an unmanned weapons platform" when I fly -- I'll do fly-bys, throttle back for a tighter turn, and then hammer away with my cannons. It's not hard.
When I'm fighting a Cube, it's actually really easy to keep up at max speed and fly circles around the top section, keeping my cannons on it pretty much 100% of the time.
Also, turrets should still be firing even while you're turning around, and believe it or not, they do not do "zero" damage.
At the expense of what capabilities? Attack Patterns and Cannon skills are basic escort stuff. If you're filling up your Boffs with things that aren't Attack Patterns, then you are sacrificing Attack Patterns, not the other way around.
There's a wide range between "doing just fine" and "doing very well". As I said, if you're dying so often that your entire strategy is built around it, then you're not actually doing just fine at all. You need to take a look at what your Science and Engineering boffs are bringing to the table -- fill out those skills with Transfer Shield Strength, Rotate Shield Frequency, Hazard Emitters, and Emergency Power to Shields, and then use them. I fly a Defiant-R and I rarely blow up running Elite STFs, unless I get a really bad PUG.
I'm not trying to be Elitist here, I'm just saying... it sounds to me like you might be having some problems that you're trying to ignore rather than fix.
Yes, unless you use abilities. When you can crit for 75k+ with a DHC let me know and I'll swap my DBB out.
I like the idea, I'll probably try it out at some point - gives me a chance to use my existing beam abilities on top of some cannon specific ones. As long as you stick to the same energy type I'm hard pressed to believe that the difference in damage would pose a real problem.
Per volley, or per bolt?