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Gedankenlab: splitting the que

patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,965 Arc User
edited December 2012 in PvP Gameplay
Hey all, listen to this idea, then tell me what's wrong with it:

To improve PvP's numbers and make it more appealing to casual players, I propose the following idea for your destruction:

Take the PvP que, split it into two ques-one for "Teams" and one for "Random".

If a toon is on a "team" it can't join a random match, if a toon is NOT on a team, it can't join the "team" ques.

If you join the 'random' que solo, then join a team, you get kicked from the que.

The concept is very simple: a Team, or "Premade" has an intrinsic advantage over five random people, one that is greater than the mere sum of it's parts. We already segregate by level, and the system already KNOWS who's "teamed" and who's not. in this concept, pre-set Teams would face only other pre-set Teams, while Pugs would only face Pugs.

The constant conventional wisdom of "PvP is suffering because lots of people get rolled in their first pick-up game by premades" would be rendered moot.

Does this make sense?

Demolish the concept.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited December 2012
    i'd say, if there were more people who actually pvp..

    this would be cool.

    there are so few of us friend, this may actually decrease the games you get to participate in.



    have fun kill bad guys
  • snoge00fsnoge00f Member Posts: 1,812 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I like it because you can avoid the random queue and get away from the dip**** dilithium farmers, afkers (unless it's teams of 'em, lol).

    And I mainly like to queue with OPvPers now, and do pugmades or challenges with 'em. It's made PvP more enjoyable for me (even if the occasional TRIBBLE takes annoying p2w into the challenges).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Well, this idea again.

    With so few PvP players further splitting the queues is not an option at all. Also everytime this idea comes up it always seems to only include single players or 5 man teams. What's with teams of 2, 3 or 4 people queing? Where are they in this concept?

    Aaaand, queing as a team doesn't necessarily mean they give a thought about their teams setup. You'd be surprised how often a 5 man team gets kicked hard as soon as your pug starts working together. Ok, that's not really a good argument, more the teams fault, but still, if said team is not really a made, but just 5 people from 1 fleet teaming they aren't necessarily better than a pug with target caller and focus fire.

    decker999
    Join Date: Aug 2010
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The major problem with this idea is it discourages team play. It also discourages teams from ever playing unless their in full premade mode because a causal group of friends won't be able to play otherwise.

    Taking the "M" out of mmo is never a good idea.

    I run usually daily pugmade matches, completely random people from the opvp channel yet we get called premades sometimes. Why? We're randomly composed as a pick up group.

    Some matches now all it takes is 1 skilled player to turn the tide in a pug game. Yet te team with the one skilled player will get called a premade.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • anazondaanazonda Member Posts: 8,399 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    All in all, I don't think anything will solve the PvP problem.

    As long as "Rock-paper-scissors" is properly implemented into this game, nothing will make the PvP work.

    They can put in all the maps, and features into PvP they wont, but as long as roles aren't valued as much as they need to be, PvP will always be a "low interest factor".

    Don't get me wrong: Your idea is great, but it won't solve the problem... It might be interesting for people for a week or two, but then it will die out again.
    Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
    Let me put the rumors to rest: it's definitely still the C-Store (Cryptic Store) It just takes ZEN.
    Like Duty Officers? Support effords to gather ideas
  • onenonlydrockonenonlydrock Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I like the idea. Nothing ruins a match more than a premade group, showing off and wiping the floor with everyone, and essentially using players as punching bags. But at the same time there's not enough players to make this idea work.

    The only option is to make your own premade and get really good or just put up with the gangbeatings.

    Also... there is nothing sweeter than beating the hell out of a premade group. It doesn't happen as much as I'd like, but when it does... man! That really boosts one's confidence.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Why does everyone thing premades are "out to get them" get a team players just play together for the fun of it?
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    If you join the 'random' que solo, then join a team, you get kicked from the que.
    huh? Seems to defeat the point of playing together even if a PuG and is pushing the idea of PvP into the realm of "soloing" and 1vs1.

    How would all those "soloists" communicate without the other side seeing it?
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • edited December 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    L2P and compete directly with pugmades. thats what i did. nothings funner then getting a kill against a pug made that 'shouldn't have happened'.

    also realize that dieing in pvp means nothing. a 1 way stomp isnt fun for ether team, but at lest your closer to getting dil. no pug or premade that isnt full of scumbags is going to glote over a stomp.

    here's a novel concept, subscribe to OPVP and become apart of the community, and form your own pugmade.

    or continue to complain and do nothing to fix whats wrong with you, and just wish everything else would change to fit your needs better.
  • obertheromulanobertheromulan Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Because the result is that there are more unbalanced matches in the queues. No one has fun in unbalanced matches. By joining as a team, you are lessening the fun of everyone involved, including yourself.

    Most definitly not.
    Who would considering joining a que and ending up in a never ending match with AFKers, a cloaked guy spewing insults, a Heals?-What's-that?-Cruiser, more fun than even the most unbalanced but quick and painless match.

    I've ran into my share of great Pugs, and some rather bad 5-fleet premades.
    This whole idea is overgeneralised, and considering the low amount of PvPers left, potentially lethal to the queues.

    Also what if I want to PvP with just a friend?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Vornek@oberlerchner123 - Join Date: July 2008
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Because the result is that there are more unbalanced matches in the queues. No one has fun in unbalanced matches. By joining as a team, you are lessening the fun of everyone involved, including yourself.

    Couldn't the opposite also be true? That by steadfastly refusing to become part of a team, you are ruining the fun of those that correctly realize that teamwork is the true nature of the game?
    LOLSTO
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    Couldn't the opposite also be true? That by steadfastly refusing to become part of a team, you are ruining the fun of those that correctly realize that teamwork is the true nature of the game?

    there's a ***** slap of truth right there.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    Couldn't the opposite also be true? That by steadfastly refusing to become part of a team, you are ruining the fun of those that correctly realize that teamwork is the true nature of the game?

    Its not very canon, how often does the Enterprise need help in the show? Not very often. Its much more satisfying killing someone with your own dps then by just doing a small amount of the dps to kill someone to. Its also much more possible in pug on pug match where everyone is disorganized and there is less cross heals. Some people just can take advantage of the chaos and have more fun that way, I do.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    marc8219 wrote: »
    Its not very canon, how often does the Enterprise need help in the show? Not very often. Its much more satisfying killing someone with your own dps then by just doing a small amount of the dps to kill someone to. Its also much more possible in pug on pug match where everyone is disorganized and there is less cross heals. Some people just can take advantage of the chaos and have more fun that way, I do.

    To be fair, in canon, the Enterprise could do whatever the writers needed it to do to achieve their creative goals. Still, there were many times, throughout the various incarnations of Trek, when cooperation with other captains was necessary: The Tachyon Detection Grid, Armadas for fighting Borg, The last 3 seasons of DS9...
    LOLSTO
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    To be fair, in canon, the Enterprise could do whatever the writers needed it to do to achieve their creative goals. Still, there were many times, throughout the various incarnations of Trek, when cooperation with other captains was necessary: The Tachyon Detection Grid, Armadas for fighting Borg, The last 3 seasons of DS9...

    good point, but also the defiant did go off cloaked on its own a lot to.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • edited December 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Point of order here, "Steadfast Refusal" implies the presence of the option, which is not a guaranteed condition, esp. for players who've recently left a fleet over internal differences, or whom are new enough to have few to no personal contacts that play, much less PvP.

    Fact is, one of the toughest things to find for a new player, is a group to play WITH. by "new" I mean 'recent' enough NOT to have a huge list of contacts, much less a group they routinely or regularly run missions and such with.

    "Refusal" implies a choice.

    It is a choice and there are always options. As I said in another thread. The resources are available. I've seen more new players in OPVP tonight, asking for teams, than I have ever seen before.
    LOLSTO
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    Couldn't the opposite also be true? That by steadfastly refusing to become part of a team, you are ruining the fun of those that correctly realize that teamwork is the true nature of the game?

    Nope, STO PVP need not involve groups at all. I have a blast dueling my fleet mates in 1 on 1's, and I personally find it more rewarding when I win solo as opposed to knowing that I got the better of another player because I had help.

    Individual players need not be forced into teams for the sole benefit of those that choose team-only game play. Cryptic has already tried to impose this team-only system on the STO player base, and the result are empty, silent PVP queues. Bottom line: the current PVP queue system has collapsed due to lack of attention towards the solo player.

    Two years ago, I predicted that the PVP queues would die out without support for the solo player. It seems that my prediction has come to pass.
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    Nope, STO PVP need not involve groups at all. I have a blast dueling my fleet mates in 1 on 1's, and I personally find it more rewarding when I win solo as opposed to knowing that I got the better of another player because I had help.

    Individual players need not be forced into teams for the sole benefit of those that choose team-only game play. Cryptic has already tried to impose this team-only system on the STO player base, and the result are empty, silent PVP queues. Bottom line: the current PVP queue system has collapsed due to lack of attention towards the solo player.

    Two years ago, I predicted that the PVP queues would die out without support for the solo player. It seems that my prediction has come to pass.

    You're still not getting it? The lack of players isn't due to premades. The "noticeability" of premades in the queues is due to lack of players. There were more premades when the queues were hopping, but you saw them less because more players were queueing up. The game was a lot closer to balanced than it is now, and people weren't sick and tired of the same 2 game modes over and over. The lack of balance and PvP development is what killed the queues.

    Again, symptom, not cause.

    Arenas and Cap n Hold are not 1v1 situations. They are 5v5 or 8v8 situations, in an MMO, this implies teamwork. It is what the game was designed for. Why do you think powers like Extend Shields and Sci/Tac/Eng Fleet exist? Hint: it ain't just for you.
    LOLSTO
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    You're still not getting it? The lack of players isn't due to premades. The "noticeability" of premades in the queues is due to lack of players. There were more premades when the queues were hopping, but you saw them less because more players were queueing up. The game was a lot closer to balanced than it is now, and people weren't sick and tired of the same 2 game modes over and over. The lack of balance and PvP development is what killed the queues.

    Again, symptom, not cause.

    Arenas and Cap n Hold are not 1v1 situations. They are 5v5 or 8v8 situations, in an MMO, this implies teamwork. It is what the game was designed for. Why do you think powers like Extend Shields and Sci/Tac/Eng Fleet exist? Hint: it ain't just for you.

    I contend otherwise. I was happily PVP'ing since STO's launch until the spawn camping by premades in PUG queues convinced me that the current PVP queue system was broken. Everytime we ran into such a group, it was non-stop spawn camping. I play STO PVP to unwind and have fun, but being repeatedly killed at your starbase just didn't make for a good time.

    A separate non-teamed PVP queue could have prevented this mess, but we will never know unless Cryptic implements it in game. Until then, please forgive me if I don't accept your explanation for the current failed game format.
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    I contend otherwise. I was happily PVP'ing since STO's launch until the spawn camping by premades in PUG queues convinced me that the current PVP queue system was broken. Everytime we ran into such a group, it was non-stop spawn camping. I play STO PVP to unwind and have fun, but being repeatedly killed at your starbase just didn't make for a good time.

    A separate non-teamed PVP queue could have prevented this mess, but we will never know unless Cryptic implements it in game. Until then, please forgive me if I don't accept your explanation for the current failed game format.

    only if you forgive me for thinking you are completely, utterly wrong.
    LOLSTO
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    But a non teamed Que will still end up being a teamed que as people who know each other will play together better than strangers.

    The none of the Ques force teaming iether. One can happily do one own thing in iether CnH or arena without being on a team.
    Of course the players that pull together will win over the loners.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    I contend otherwise. I was happily PVP'ing since STO's launch until the spawn camping by premades in PUG queues convinced me that the current PVP queue system was broken. Everytime we ran into such a group, it was non-stop spawn camping. I play STO PVP to unwind and have fun, but being repeatedly killed at your starbase just didn't make for a good time.

    A separate non-teamed PVP queue could have prevented this mess, but we will never know unless Cryptic implements it in game. Until then, please forgive me if I don't accept your explanation for the current failed game format.

    oh please, now we are complaining about spawn camping. if you get spawn camped, YOU did something wrong.

    1 you didn't leave your damn spawn and fly to the center as soon as the match started

    or

    2 there is such a skill mismatch, and your just feeding kills to the other team staggered instead of regrouping, that the battle ends up back at your spawn


    at that point you get spawn camped because there is no fun to be had at all because of the skill mismatch, and just im trying to end this pathetic match as soon as possible.

    it seems the less skill someone has, the more they are DEEPLY effected by getting killed in pvp. if your team gets stomped and ends up being spawn camped, just write this match off as a failing of matchmaking and MOVE ON. don't warp out for christ sake, stay, get killed and get the match over with so everyone is 1 match closer to getting their dil.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    brandonfl wrote: »
    only if you forgive me for thinking you are completely, utterly wrong.

    That's fine, we agree to disagree. I believe in what I see first hand, not conjecture that makes any questionable conclusion.

    Regardless of what caused the PVP player base to fade, the result is still clear: the public PVP queues are dead because the current queue model does not meet the average STO player's entertainment needs. OPVP is the only reliable means to set any challenge matches up. There is no individual PVP player support other than private challenges.

    Several have already voiced that they would return to PVP is a non-teamed queue is ever created. I promise that I would use such a queue if it ever goes live since it matches my preferred play style. No one will be forced to use it, and it can happily co-exist with the current PVP queues already present since team players will remain with like-minded players. Can you tell that I am sick of getting shoe-horned into matches with premades? Please give me a choice!
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    no amount of new que types will fix anything if players continue to suck. bootcamp up, or learn independently and you will realize how silly these ques you want are
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    That's fine, we agree to disagree. I believe in what I see first hand, not conjecture that makes any questionable conclusion.

    Regardless of what caused the PVP player base to fade, the result is still clear: the public PVP queues are dead because the current queue model does not meet the average STO player's entertainment needs. OPVP is the only reliable means to set any challenge matches up. There is no individual PVP player support other than private challenges.

    Several have already voiced that they would return to PVP is a non-teamed queue is ever created. I promise that I would use such a queue if it ever goes live since it matches my preferred play style. No one will be forced to use it, and it can happily co-exist with the current PVP queues already present since team players will remain with like-minded players. Can you tell that I am sick of getting shoe-horned into matches with premades? Please give me a choice!

    You are making a huge assumption. My views are not based on conjecture. They are based on nearly 3 years of watching good PvPers leave this game due to lack of Dev attention and balance issues. There have been dozens of deleted "I Quit" threads. Dozens of people asking to 'haz' their stuff. Dozens of people who just disappeared. None of them (good PvPers) did so because they were tired of losing to premades.
    LOLSTO
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    no amount of new que types will fix anything if players continue to suck. bootcamp up, or learn independently and you will realize how silly these ques you want are
    brandonfl wrote: »
    You are making a huge assumption. My views are not based on conjecture. They are based on nearly 3 years of watching good PvPers leave this game due to lack of Dev attention and balance issues. There have been dozens of deleted "I Quit" threads. Dozens of people asking to 'haz' their stuff. Dozens of people who just disappeared. None of them (good PvPers) did so because they were tired of losing to premades.

    What I was challenging was why the bulk of the PVP player base faded away. If the number of premades entering the queues did go up, then why did PVP still die out? The only real conclusion that can be drawn is because STO PVP ceased being entertaining for those players. Even if premades did not cause the mass exodus away from PVP, the current PVP format still failed at retaining them. Therefore, if Cryptic wants to revive PVP, then they have to consider other PVP formats besides team-only.

    A non-teamed PVP queue is just one of many options. I personally favor persistent territorial conquest where fleets must PVP to retain control of specific space regions with sizable benefits (dilithium mines, bonus fleet marks, exclusive vendors, etc).

    No matter what we cover here, staying with the current failed format simply doesn't make sense if we want PVP to move beyond its current niche populace.
  • kamipoikamipoi Member Posts: 365 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    im tired of seeing the same people come and stomp on this subject because they want to keep the status qua ither way if this is implemented or not pvp is going to die the only other option in the short term is to shut it down and reboot it later with a system to start measuring players skill levels that raise and lower from week to week.

    at least in the short term something can be done to encourage some players to join pvp that are trying to avoid you pugmade premades and fleet made premades.

    and all you guys do is try to stomp the idea off the table because it means less stomps for you.Get over your egos or their will be no pvp in this game.
  • brandonflbrandonfl Member Posts: 892
    edited December 2012
    Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.

    Try reading our posts.

    We all agree on 1 thing. That is that PvP needs attention. What we disagree with is the idea that segregating teams from solo players is the solution.

    New game modes, map types and territory control would all be wonderful things... those things are not on the horizon, unfortunately.

    Under the current system, and with the low PvP population, segregating the queues would not solve any problems, only create new ones for the people who enjoy playing in groups. Get it? It's not about maintaining the status quo. It's about preserving what little fun grouped players can still have. Since it is a team-oriented game, that fact must enter into the equation.

    This isn't about preserving premades rights to stomp on PUGs. It's about preserving the ability to enjoy the game with friends. The solution presented in the OP only allows 2 types of queuing: full 5-man teams and solo. What happens to the 2 or 3 guys who want to queue together? They don't have the option under the proposed queue types. That isn't right.
    LOLSTO
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