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cannons and beam arrays

shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
I can never get why the need to emphasize why they decided a cannon should do more dmg than a beam array. DPS aside as well as turrets why would a concentrated bolt of energy costing you 10-12WP be any stronger than a concentrated beam of energy at the same given energy cost.
DPS wise i can understand do to the volume of fire most cannons produce and i would never falt the crit proc rate for that volume, but for base dmg beams should never be subpar to a cannon when both use the same given ammount of power.
Despite Game trying to destinguish a difference between them, using my own personal experience using all types of space weapons comparing dmg rates of each, the weapon unless a resistance type comes into effect does exactly the dmg it says each and every time no matter the distance(10km or less) against shields and hull.
So while beams are supposed to be shield killers, i tend to find do to their slow cycle rates are no more if not less effective than cannons in taking shields down and certainly just as slow in diminishing hull str as they are at draining shields.
The only restriction you've put on cannons is just what ships duals can be put on and a lower firing arc, which can still be gotten around with use of single cannons 180 firing arc still working in par with a beams 225 mounted on the rear. I mean it's no wonder so many people favor escorts for dps when u can outperform a multibeam ship anyday and get the the speed and agility to boot, sure escorts may have slightly weaker hull and shield str's but it's not a HUGE difference that makes or breaks the game or survivability.
I mean in show you wouldn't catch a single defiant class escort taking on a borg cube alone, but they can sure do it with no problems on here, along with just about any ship thrown at them. I have nothing against the people who prefer those ships as they serve a purpose like all ships should...just most of the time those other ships aren't really needed when enemies die within seconds lol.
These are just opinions and shouldn't be taken wrongly or against player or ship builds, but i've found that a cannon equipped cruiser to be as if not more deadlier than a beam boat(unless using fire at will effectively).

Feel free to throw opinions in as everyone should!!!!!
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Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

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Comments

  • edited December 2012
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  • thratch1thratch1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Realistically speaking, a sustained beam of energy (as from a beam array) should be way more powerful than a bolt (as from a cannon).

    Cannons are cooler, though, and cooler always means more powerful. It's why katanas and revolvers are clearly superior weapons in movies and video games, despite other contemporary guns and swords in the real world being on par or better in function.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Cannons alone are not that amazing. What makes cannons amazing are:

    4-5 tactical consoles
    Attack Pattern Alpha
    Attack Pattern Beta
    Attack Pattern Omega
    Cannon Rapid Fire
    Fire On My Mark
    Go Down Fighting


    Cannons aren't overpowered, Tactical captains are.

    While i admit you got a good point on tac captains being op, most cruisers are forced to use either regular cannons, turrets or beams with only 3 tac slots on fed side making them a gimp for being something intended to be a tank, it's like rolling out a M1A2 Abrams with a 20mm cannon instead of the big gun...while yes it's still deadly just not as much or as appealing. lol
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • chalpenchalpen Member Posts: 2,207 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    canons are good for ships that turn fast and (therefore) can aim better.
    Slow ships with canons aren't a good idea for DPS (example: bortas).
    Should I start posting again after all this time?
  • proteus22proteus22 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    in the show the pulse phaser cannons on the defiant were stronger than beam arrays because of how the pulses were formed in layers like and onion so first layer or two might be absorbed by shield bt third would probably overload shield and fourth and fith layers of energy might pass through. in a techno bable kinda way
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    thratch1 wrote: »
    Realistically speaking, a sustained beam of energy (as from a beam array) should be way more powerful than a bolt (as from a cannon).

    Half right. A sustained beam allows more absorbed energy build-up in the target, but a rapidly pulsed beam in theory gets you a bonus concussive blast effect that a sustained beam would lack. The rapid vaporization of target material exerts thrust against the target surface. With a sustained beam that translates to a constant but relatively gentle push, but with pulses it translates to short, sharp, impact-like thrusts. Thermal soak expansion can play a role too: instead of a gradual but constant build in temperature and thus expansion, you get an oscillating/vibrating pattern of expansion and contraction or expansion and plateau that can wreak much greater structural stress on materials.

    Also, for a pulse and a beam weapon of the same DPS, the energy delivered for the duration of a single pulse will be greater than the energy delivered in an equivalent interval of the sustained beam (burst vs soak DPS on the scale of individual pulses, in other words), so the total kinetic energy delivered via vaporization or expansion for a pulse can be similarly greater than for an equivalent duration of beam.

    None of that matters against shields, of course, since there's no matter involved to expand or vaporize, and in fact cannon should actually perform much worse against shields since the interval between pulses would act as a recovery interval for the shield electronics. So it should be that beams get a bonus against shields, but cannon get a kinetic bonus against hull.

    SCIENCE!:D
  • lostusthornlostusthorn Member Posts: 844
    edited December 2012
    Don't forget that range also plays a role, beams outperform cannons at longer range since their damage falls of less with distance.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Theoretically, all else being equal, a pulsed beam and a sustained beam should attenuate at the same rate/range, so I'd put that down to fictional technical limitations in the fictional hardware being different for pulse emitters than for beam emitters. Not that that matters for this discussion, it just means it's more or less unrelated to the raw DPS/power output.

    Of course, realistically speaking, range should not be an issue at all at the distances combat takes place at in Trek and STO. In space, and with weapons like these, 10km is kissing distance. The range of both pulse and beam should be greater than the map width.

    You could justify the super-short combat distances by saying it gives an enemy less reaction time to shoot down torps, but that doesn't address max range unless short range combat is so standard that range has become an engineering dump-stat.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Back on topic though, I fly cruisers, and I strongly prefer cannon over beams, but that's because lots of cannons means guaranteed proc and proc stacking since the proc chance is calculated per-pulse.
  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,991 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Half right. A sustained beam allows more absorbed energy build-up in the target, but a rapidly pulsed beam in theory gets you a bonus concussive blast effect that a sustained beam would lack. The rapid vaporization of target material exerts thrust against the target surface. With a sustained beam that translates to a constant but relatively gentle push, but with pulses it translates to short, sharp, impact-like thrusts. Thermal soak expansion can play a role too: instead of a gradual but constant build in temperature and thus expansion, you get an oscillating/vibrating pattern of expansion and contraction or expansion and plateau that can wreak much greater structural stress on materials.

    Also, for a pulse and a beam weapon of the same DPS, the energy delivered for the duration of a single pulse will be greater than the energy delivered in an equivalent interval of the sustained beam (burst vs soak DPS on the scale of individual pulses, in other words), so the total kinetic energy delivered via vaporization or expansion for a pulse can be similarly greater than for an equivalent duration of beam.

    None of that matters against shields, of course, since there's no matter involved to expand or vaporize, and in fact cannon should actually perform much worse against shields since the interval between pulses would act as a recovery interval for the shield electronics. So it should be that beams get a bonus against shields, but cannon get a kinetic bonus against hull.

    SCIENCE!:D

    Strain on the shield generators similar to the pulse erosion of hull.
  • lordfuzunlordfuzun Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    thratch1 wrote: »
    Realistically speaking, a sustained beam of energy (as from a beam array) should be way more powerful than a bolt (as from a cannon)..

    Um. No realistically speaking pulsed directed energy devices have a peak power is much higher than it's aver power level. That is a highly desirable property for weapons. Also realistically pulsed lasers are better for penetration. With a high power laser hitting a surface you are going to get spallation debris and vaporize material around the point of impact. That will hve the effect of diffusing a continuous beam, whereas a suitably timed pulsed laser give time for the debris to disperse allowing the following pulse to avoid diffusion.
  • connectamabobconnectamabob Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Strain on the shield generators similar to the pulse erosion of hull.

    Dropped words meaning unclear. Mean should realistically, or currently in game?
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    All i know is i don't see a drop in dmg with cannons at distance at all, it just seems low but it's taking in consideration a cannon rated let's say at 800dps firing a cycle of 4 shots i see each shot doing roughly 200dmg per bolt and this is actual in game mechanics.....

    I could be wrong but from my actual useage i never see dmg waiver any at distance anymore than up close.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • alexhurlbutalexhurlbut Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    All i know is i don't see a drop in dmg with cannons at distance at all, it just seems low but it's taking in consideration a cannon rated let's say at 800dps firing a cycle of 4 shots i see each shot doing roughly 200dmg per bolt and this is actual in game mechanics.....

    I could be wrong but from my actual useage i never see dmg waiver any at distance anymore than up close.
    THe cannon DO less damage the further you are away, the drop off is around 5-6 km, when you're inside that you're hitting the full potential of damage output. The falloff is what? 7 or 8 km for Beam?

    The cannon in game is also more effective on the hull than the beam is.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012

    Cannons aren't overpowered, Tactical captains are.

    How? Because they do more damage than the other classes?

    Thats thier job and the only thing a Tactical player brings to the game or team on which they may be playing.

    Attack Pattern Beta is useful be any class at T1 and T2. Only ApB3 is availible to the Escort class vessel due to the Commander BOff station. Pick the right ship and any player can use ApB3.

    Attack Pattern Omega is useful be any class at T1 and T2. Only Apo3 is availible to the Escort class vessel due to the Commander BOff station. Pick the right ship and any player can use Apo3 if they wish.

    Cannon Rapid Fire is useful be any class at T1 and T2. Only CRF3 is availible to the Escort class vessel due to the Commander BOff station. Pick the right ship and any player can use CRF3.

    Cannon Scatter Volley is useful be any class at T1 and T2. Only SV3 is availible to the Escort class vessel due to the Commander BOff station. Pick the right ship and any player can use CSV3 if they wish.

    Fire On My Mark is easily dismissed by Tactical Team BOff ability.
    Fomm is no different than the Science Captain Ability Sensor Scan. Its infact weaker due to the ability to be dismissed by TT.

    FOMM = -x damage resistance / -x stealth
    SenScan = -X% damage resist / -x% stealth / -x% perception

    Go down fighting is not OP iether. The player must be below 50% hull to even activate or getr benefit from it. While it does increased damage greatly based on the amount of hull the player has, that is its drawback. When the Tac using GDF is the most damaging he is at his most defensively weaknest and can be killed.
    Most tac players know this and wait to buff thier resists for this reason.
    We can't nerf people becuase they know how to play thier fovered class effectively within the limits of the game.
    I can never get why the need to emphasize why they decided a cannon should do more dmg than a beam array.
    Where has it been shown what weapon does more damage in the IP? Has always been my question.
    Cannons do have Restrictions though that handicap them, such as the lowest firing arcs meaning one must have turnrate to use them.
    As well the Damage (DPV) of cannons is lower (with one exception) than all beam weapons. DPS is where cannons have higher damage values than Beams.

    Mk 12 white
    Cannon = 159 (DPV) / 212 (DPS) 180'fa

    Beam = 220 (DPV) / 176 (DPS) 250'fa

    Dual Cannons = 192 (DPV) / 256 (DPS) 45'fa

    Dual Beam Bank = 287 (DPV) / 229 (DPS) 90'fs

    Dual Heavy Cannon = 384 (DPV) / 256 (DPS) 45'fa

    So cannons only do more DPS than Beams who do more DPV.
    Cannons suffer more from Firing Arc restrictions and require a Turn rate to use effectively. Meaning its easier to evade the firing arc of cannons.

    Beams Suffer far less of a firing arc restriction and allow for more uptime of weapons on target.

    This is why I support the Heavy Beam (HB Mk12 white 350 (DPV) / 250 (DPS) 70'fa
    and the idea of a Beam Rapid Fire BOff ability to even the field a bit.
    Despite Game trying to destinguish a difference between them, using my own personal experience using all types of space weapons comparing dmg rates of each, the weapon unless a resistance type comes into effect does exactly the dmg it says each and every time no matter the distance(10km or less) against shields and hull.
    Then that is a bug, as all energy weapons damage is suppossed to degrade (at different amounts based on weapon type) over range to target. Cannons double more so than Beams.
    So while beams are supposed to be shield killers,
    Where did this come from? I have never understood why Beams where suppossed to be shield killers?


    I mean in show you wouldn't catch a single defiant class escort taking on a borg cube alone, but they can sure do it with no problems on here, along with just about any ship thrown at them.
    This is a game and is designed around the individual player. I'm sure the Defiant could handle a Borg as well as the Enterprise in the shows, as it would be scripted to work.
    thratch1 wrote: »
    Realistically speaking, a sustained beam of energy (as from a beam array) should be way more powerful than a bolt (as from a cannon).
    A Sustained beam Array attack may have more power than a Single Cannon attack (They already do infact BA= 220/176 versus SC = 159/212) but none of the standard beam attacks are sustained in STO unless its Beam Overload (Which does HIGH damage)

    Cannons are only more effective in that they can burst fire delivering maximized DPS in a short attack situation. This tends to overload the targets ability to resist/heal and kill them if done correctly.
    Cannons perform worse in DPV than beams due to thier low DPV values and short length of time the buffs are availible to them.

    Beams do worse at Burst fire as they have a lower DPS than cannons but can be more devastating with DPV over time coupled with thier high firing arc to keep the target locked under attack longer.

    This whole debate on the Cannons/ Escort versus the Cruiser/Beams is very muddled by player experience more than anything else.

    Thanks to Hilberts Guide the Escort crowd got a boost if playing skill due to the philosphy of the Cycling Build design where one cycles powers to keep a more constant uptime. the Escort player whom has read the guide learned how to cycle EPTx abilites, TT ability, and ApX abilites. As well the guide talks on resist stacking, the other thing that protects the Escort player if they followed that guide.

    Cruisers have been at a disadvantage due to this info being released (and becuase the original guide had the Cruiser mainly as a healer/support design) in compariosn to the escort which now knows how to tank better and still deliver the same damage as before.

    That has changed though with the idea of teh AtB build. Now a Cruiser can cycle two AtB abilities to keep thier tac BOff abilites uptime higher and all thier healing abilities to boot.
    Such a build does take pratice to use ingame as it has a huge disadvantage of having no Aux power avialible quite often.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Minor quibble (otherwise agreed on most points): GDF is not locked above 50% health.
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    Where has it been shown what weapon does more damage in the IP? Has always been my question.

    The argument can be made, based on the depiction of the Defiant in several eps (specifically the destruction of the combined Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet where it slags I believe four Jem'Hedar fighters in about five phaser volleys) that the pulsed cannons pack a bigger punch than the primary arrays on other ships of the era.

    However, given the general inconsistency of tech in DS9, the apples to oranges comparison of a pure warship versus heavily armed exploration vessels, and the invocation of plot armor, that it's not exactly the most tenable position.
  • chk231chk231 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Half right. A sustained beam allows more absorbed energy build-up in the target, but a rapidly pulsed beam in theory gets you a bonus concussive blast effect that a sustained beam would lack. The rapid vaporization of target material exerts thrust against the target surface. With a sustained beam that translates to a constant but relatively gentle push, but with pulses it translates to short, sharp, impact-like thrusts. Thermal soak expansion can play a role too: instead of a gradual but constant build in temperature and thus expansion, you get an oscillating/vibrating pattern of expansion and contraction or expansion and plateau that can wreak much greater structural stress on materials.

    Also, for a pulse and a beam weapon of the same DPS, the energy delivered for the duration of a single pulse will be greater than the energy delivered in an equivalent interval of the sustained beam (burst vs soak DPS on the scale of individual pulses, in other words), so the total kinetic energy delivered via vaporization or expansion for a pulse can be similarly greater than for an equivalent duration of beam.

    None of that matters against shields, of course, since there's no matter involved to expand or vaporize, and in fact cannon should actually perform much worse against shields since the interval between pulses would act as a recovery interval for the shield electronics. So it should be that beams get a bonus against shields, but cannon get a kinetic bonus against hull.

    SCIENCE!:D

    Sir, you are amazing. +100
  • gavinrunebladegavinruneblade Member Posts: 3,894 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »

    Where did this come from? I have never understood why Beams where suppossed to be shield killers?

    If I had to guess (as I haven't seen anything specific stated) it's from the way captains hold off firing torpedoes until the enemy's shields are down in the various shows. Translated into game terms this gives a distinctive use for each weapon: beams vs shields torps vs hulls.

    It conveniently overlooks the way getting hit with a torpedo screwed over most ships sometimes causing minor fires and blown out panels even if they had shields left afterward. But it makes a clean game mechanic.
  • tjexcimer500tjexcimer500 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I mean in show you wouldn't catch a single defiant class escort taking on a borg cube alone, but they can sure do it with no problems on here, along with just about any ship thrown at them.

    According to DS9-447: The Search, Pt. 1 -
    Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship--nothing more, nothing less... It was designed for one purpose only - to fight, and defeat the Borg.
    There are Four Lights... say no to ARC
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    According to DS9-447: The Search, Pt. 1 -

    Yet in first contact the defiant along with several other vessels took a TRIBBLE pounding against a single cube vessel.
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    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • kiralynkiralyn Member Posts: 1,576 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Yet in first contact the defiant along with several other vessels took a TRIBBLE pounding against a single cube vessel.

    That's because, in a dramatic movie or tv show, everything is subservient to the plot. :P

    (Need Borg to be Amazing Threat? Ok, they plow through dozens of ships. Need Borg to be just another Enemy Of The Week? Ok, Voyager can deal with them while being without fleet support for months & years. Etc, etc, etc. Just like in generic action flicks - the ammo in the gun only runs out if the plot needs it too. :D)


    And of course, the translation between movies/tv/books and games - where there are different needs & requirements - adds all sorts of complications. Lore frequently needs to go out the window in the interest of game design.
  • wunjeewunjee Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Don't know if it's been said yet, so I'll say it now.

    In Phasers, the way they function, they do the most damage at the initial moment of impact. This is why we see multiple fast phaser hits doing more damage then long, sustained phaser hits. Most of their damage comes at the initial point of impact with diminishing damage over the course of the beam.

    The pulse phaser was their solution to delivering many, many "initial impacts" over a very short amount of time.
    Yet in first contact the defiant along with several other vessels took a TRIBBLE pounding against a single cube vessel.

    The Cube also took an "TRIBBLE pounding"..

    "It has sustained heavy damage to its outer hull. I am reading fluctuations in their power grid."

    Tells quite a different story then the cube being completely untouched at Wolf 359, doesn't it?

    Anyway, as for the Defiant's description in The Search: 1..

    Sisko: Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel. Unfofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Kira: I thought Starfleet doesn't believe in warships?

    Sisko: Desperate times breed desperate measures, Major. Five years ago, Starfleet began exploring the possibility of building a new class of Starship. This ship would have no families, no science labs. No luxuries of any kind. It was designed for one purpose only. To fight, and defeat, the Borg. The Defiant was a prototype. The first ship in what would've been a new Federation battlefleet.

    Nowehre does it say Defiant was designed to 1v1 zero a cube.
  • fovrelfovrel Member Posts: 1,448 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Cannons and beams are imo just a game mechanic, implemented so we can toy with different weapon types and weapon skills. The same is the matter with the fire arc issue; it is just a way to balance between the different types of weapons.

    Think about it. They are both energy weapons, can't they have different fire modes, like an automated fire arm, single and multiple shots? An energy weapon should have a beam mode and a cannon/impuls mode, firing short burst.

    And the firing arc. Obviously a cannon is something that is integrated in the ship hull, hence a limited firing arc. Is that a believable concept for the the 24th century? The battleship was in fact outdated in WWO II, but their fire power was huge and their main guns were turrets.

    Even if we have to construct the weapon in the ship as a whole, it is space, the vessel can move along a line and having its front faced into another direction. Firing arc is also a matter of turn rate. I would say, boost your thrusters. Some escorts are pretty big. How come they can turn better than cruisers and science ships of the same size or smaller? Again it is all a matter of game design and concept.

    BTW, because of this discussion, I did a little testing with a hvy double cannon and a double beam bank. Distance does matter. Above 7.5 km the naked damage of the double beam bank is higher, between 7.5 and 5 the cannon is slightly higher, from 5 km the cannon is significantly better as the beam bank. The damage of the beam bank grows as you got nearer to the target, but it grows just slightly. With beam banks, you better stay out of the 7 km zone.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Minor quibble (otherwise agreed on most points): GDF is not locked above 50% health.
    True, though at above 50% hull its bonus to damage is less than 3%.

    The argument can be made, based on the depiction of the Defiant in several eps (specifically the destruction of the combined Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar fleet where it slags I believe four Jem'Hedar fighters in about five phaser volleys) that the pulsed cannons pack a bigger punch than the primary arrays on other ships of the era.

    Scripting had more to do with that than firepower I would think but you are correct, the Pulse Cannons where described as a more powerful weapon at its time in the IP.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
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