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Damage output these days

devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
edited December 2012 in PvP Gameplay
A question to all:

Has the alpha strikes and seperatly the raw damage output been increased exponentially since season 2? What has contributed to this and how?

Of late im noticing ships bursting out insane damage, taking a fully healthy escort from 100 to 0 in a split second. Yes im ware of all the buffs and debuffs in the game, but are there anything besides that which is factoring to the damage output? One thing im thinking off is especially the Jem`hadar ship which can mount 5 wepaons consoles without suffering a stacking penalty. So question is if this warrants a stacking penalty or not, considering how much healing output can be done.


Enlighten me and us.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Post edited by devorasx on
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Comments

  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    IMO the 5th console makes very little difference.... The spike your talking about seeing would rip that hard - one console.

    Weapons drain changes back around season 3 or 4... where a massive nerf to dmg... and frankly I don't think it ever recovered from there. Bad players are more consistent with dmg after that change... good players took a massive dps downsizing.

    Recently however...

    3% more crit... passive
    +30 wepaons... Passive... (extra MK XII purple to all weapon types)

    Console Additions

    [Console - Tachyokinetic Converter] - 0.76% crit 7.6 sevarity

    [Console - Zero-Point Energy Conduit] - 1.8% crit

    And the best Spike dmg Boost Ever created... the Borg Console + Cutting Beam 2 piece Omega Weapon Amplification.... When this bad boy procs... yes its a knife through hot butter against most people that aren't supper hardened.

    Overall I would say dmg is up in Season 7... but not in a massive way. Once an escort hits Tier 2 Rom and Omega though... and gets the 2 passives + the console and the KCB, yes they are much deadlier.
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  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited December 2012
    But is this up in damage warranted? Do we want ships to die so fast?
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    And the best Spike dmg Boost Ever created... the Borg Console + Cutting Beam 2 piece Omega Weapon Amplification.... When this bad boy procs... yes its a knife through hot butter against most people that aren't supper hardened.

    I've never actually seen this proc :(

    In regards to the OP, it's too difficult to answer a question like that really... there are far too many variables to account for. STO is a game of tidal gravity and between the two extremes of spike and hardening, there's a lot of flux, push and pull. Ultimately lethal spike isn't determined by this or that weapon or power but by timing, positioning and respective buff readouts.

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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    ive experienced some unexplainable deaths lately, i'll be tanking just fine, with the hax shield passives even, and i'll see an alpha coming and am ready for it but then it kills my TRIBBLE in 2 seconds. like TT is completely overcome and shot threw, no BO3 just 4 cannons. i don't see anything remarkable in the damage logs wile waiting for re-spawn ether. i have done similar as well with my crit heavy character, but i wasn't able to get a true read on the skill of the people i blind sided. 1 person killing me that quick though shouldn't be possible.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    ive experienced some unexplainable deaths lately, i'll be tanking just fine, with the hax shield passives even, and i'll see an alpha coming and am ready for it but then it kills my TRIBBLE in 2 seconds. like TT is completely overcome and shot threw, no BO3 just 4 cannons. i don't see anything remarkable in the damage logs wile waiting for re-spawn ether. i have done similar as well with my crit heavy character, but i wasn't able to get a true read on the skill of the people i blind sided. 1 person killing me that quick though shouldn't be possible.

    What do you mean really? One person shouldn't be killing you that quick or one person shouldn't be killing you that quick when TT is up and you have some sort of mitigation running? Huge difference.

    Check the logs to be sure that tt as well as your other defenses were actually running when you took the damage.

    Cause I can assure you that you die that quick when your defenses are down.

    Cheers and happy parsing!
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    +30 wepaons... Passive... (extra MK XII purple to all weapon types)
    No, it isn't equivalent to a MK XII purple tactical console.

    I checked how much DPS I get with a MK XII purple tactical console. I get about 90 more DPS.

    I checked how much DPS I got when I selected the +30 weapons, and it was about half that (43.5).

    It's half a console.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    But is this up in damage warranted? Do we want ships to die so fast?

    Your kidding right ? who the heck id dying fast ?
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    No, it isn't equivalent to a MK XII purple tactical console.

    I checked how much DPS I get with a MK XII purple tactical console. I get about 90 more DPS.

    I checked how much DPS I got when I selected the +30 weapons, and it was about half that (43.5).

    It's half a console.

    last I checked +30 is +30... unless cryptic screwed something up... perhaps you should post that in the bug report section then.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    thissler wrote: »
    What do you mean really? One person shouldn't be killing you that quick or one person shouldn't be killing you that quick when TT is up and you have some sort of mitigation running? Huge difference.

    Check the logs to be sure that tt as well as your other defenses were actually running when you took the damage.

    Cause I can assure you that you die that quick when your defenses are down.

    Cheers and happy parsing!

    i was talking about attacks i saw coming, and prepared for, none that i was thinking of were even from decloak alphas, in fact i survived some particularly brutal ones from reacting fast enough just yesterday. Ive survived being blindsided wile defenses were down about as many times as ive been killed wile defenses were down, even by you!
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    ive experienced some unexplainable deaths lately, i'll be tanking just fine, with the hax shield passives even, and i'll see an alpha coming and am ready for it but then it kills my TRIBBLE in 2 seconds. like TT is completely overcome and shot threw, no BO3 just 4 cannons. i don't see anything remarkable in the damage logs wile waiting for re-spawn ether. i have done similar as well with my crit heavy character, but i wasn't able to get a true read on the skill of the people i blind sided. 1 person killing me that quick though shouldn't be possible.

    To be honest... Why should it not be possible ?

    The major issue this game has is people being able to completely ignore most alpha strikes... cause DMG just doesn't outstrip healing ever... Cryptic even seems to be dumbing down the healing ... with passive boosts to shield regen (btw I see people complaining about a tier 4 passive that increases passive regen by 30-40% come on thats still stupid imo)... and worse for the alpha striker shield heals that proc when someone is crit hit.

    IMO if you are to slow to be hitting tac teams / evasives / brace for impacts... ect ect you 100% deserve to get alphad to death.

    Most ships are still NOT going to be able to take anyone down in one pass with out every single buff they have... and that is still not going to get the job done 9 times out of 10... if the proc gods align and score you a Omega Amp proc right as your cycle begins and you land a string of massive crits... why should you not be rewarded with a kill. How many times have all the other stupid crazy heals in this game saved those people after a failed alpha?

    The new spike options in the game are a good thing... and they still don't work unless you are smart about when you attack and how you attack.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    PS... I'll take a bit of credit myself for finally convincing a growing group of people that ACCx3 IS NOT THE BEST weapon in the game for pvp. :) lol
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    PS... I'll take a bit of credit myself for finally convincing a growing group of people that ACCx3 IS NOT THE BEST weapon in the game for pvp. :) lol

    i'm certainly in agreement there. my 2 hold ships usually have crtH3, wile more conventional escorts run acc1 critH2. VERY happy with the results, especially with the omega deflector and accurate traits. having 1 acc mod vs none makes a huge difference for some reason


    but getting killed, im talking about situations were is didnt TRIBBLE up, reacted to slow, or left something unused and died. im talking about situations were i can safely say i made no error, executed my defense in time and fully and still got caped.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    It's just really hard to say, even if you thought you were prepared. It's more likely that a buff was off or missing than to think they had some magical damage.

    That being said, since season seven, i've seen some pretty magical things. So I won't rule anything out.

    You should fraps so u can match up ur logs to video, so that you can verify things that the logs won't show.

    Oh and it's absolutely true. When ur buffed ur annoying. I mean annoyingly hard to kill. Not annoying like annoying annoying. Just ....um...so anyways.

    Cheers and happy flying!!
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    One of my pet peeves (one of a growing number it seems) has always been the full energy weapon build. As much as it has the potential to shoot myself in the foot, I'd kind of like to see what would happen if Tactical Consoles had diminishing returns. I think it would be a nice way to encourage people to run builds (builds and consoles) with greater variability. Right now all energy in the Tactical slots seems to be the way to go and while it may not be OVER POWERED it still overshadows other varied builds. So, apply diminishing returns to encourage people to load up a torpedo or mine and there is even some z-store incentive here... Tac slots tend not to be used for those consoles.

    On a side note, it's incredibly obnoxious reading comments about how the Defiant load out is a waste because no one needs 3 Tac Ensign slots. This always comes from the guys who go the all energy route and I don't feel it's the fault of the game or developers that players make bad build choices. And it is bad. Load up a mine, beam or torpedo and you'll never feel like you have enough Tac Boff slots, lol.

    Ok, so admittedly this whole post has been somewhat off topic. I don't think damage for the most part is too ridiculous. I think big crits go well in a game with big defenses. Lots of things need tweaking for sure, but as long as something (yes, even me) is more likely to die than zombie up I think it's a good thing.
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    but getting killed, im talking about situations were is didnt TRIBBLE up, reacted to slow, or left something unused and died. im talking about situations were i can safely say i made no error, executed my defense in time and fully and still got caped.

    Ya i hear ya. I am sure you don't TRIBBLE up that often.

    At the end of the day though this game is just dice roles (when skill use is ruffly equal)... for over 2 years now since the big DPS nerfs... the dice rolls have favored the defender 99% of the time... its kinda nice now that the numbers allow for the DPS dice roll to win the odd time.

    I don't mind that I get smacked down now and then.... the trade is that now instead of noticing how Defense junk and tac teams have robbed me of a good alpha 20 times in a night... I can focuse on the one or two runs when a few critz get me that Kaboom. :) lol
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  • radkipradkip Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Your kidding right ? who the heck id dying fast ?
    Bad people like me. :P
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    thissler wrote: »
    Oh and it's absolutely true. When ur buffed ur annoying. I mean annoyingly hard to kill. Not annoying like annoying annoying. Just ....um...so anyways.

    wouldn't want you to get complacent! shooting fish in a barrel isn't good practice :P
    stevehale wrote: »
    One of my pet peeves (one of a growing number it seems) has always been the full energy weapon build. As much as it has the potential to shoot myself in the foot, I'd kind of like to see what would happen if Tactical Consoles had diminishing returns. I think it would be a nice way to encourage people to run builds (builds and consoles) with greater variability. Right now all energy in the Tactical slots seems to be the way to go and while it may not be OVER POWERED it still overshadows other varied builds. So, apply diminishing returns to encourage people to load up a torpedo or mine and there is even some z-store incentive here... Tac slots tend not to be used for those consoles.

    On a side note, it's incredibly obnoxious reading comments about how the Defiant load out is a waste because no one needs 3 Tac Ensign slots. This always comes from the guys who go the all energy route and I don't feel it's the fault of the game or developers that players make bad build choices. And it is bad. Load up a mine, beam or torpedo and you'll never feel like you have enough Tac Boff slots, lol.

    Ok, so admittedly this whole post has been somewhat off topic. I don't think damage for the most part is too ridiculous. I think big crits go well in a game with big defenses. Lots of things need tweaking for sure, but as long as something (yes, even me) is more likely to die than zombie up I think it's a good thing.

    i for 1 love (mostly) the new omega torp. the problem is torps are just kinda bad outside of their role in the perfect alpha strike. the omega torp though is rapid fireing, but has a hard cap to how long it can shoot at that pace with the 5 charges. a change like this should be done to torps across the board, they would have actual dps and use outside of perfectly timed HYs. torps fired that often are bound to hit hull fairly often, thats what im finding anyway.

    the only problem with it is that it has a huge 10 second cooldown built in after it fires a spread or salvo before firing again at all. your better off using a conventional plasma torp then, it will fire more often! just auto fireing the omega torp with no buffs actually works best, which is to bad because it has the best target able projectile yet, a 4k hitpoint HY plasma that will disintegrate people!
  • thishorizonthishorizon Member Posts: 1,158
    edited December 2012
    i feel the same as i ever did.
  • doomiciledoomicile Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    A question to all:

    Has the alpha strikes and seperatly the raw damage output been increased exponentially since season 2? What has contributed to this and how?

    Of late im noticing ships bursting out insane damage, taking a fully healthy escort from 100 to 0 in a split second. Yes im ware of all the buffs and debuffs in the game, but are there anything besides that which is factoring to the damage output? One thing im thinking off is especially the Jem`hadar ship which can mount 5 wepaons consoles without suffering a stacking penalty. So question is if this warrants a stacking penalty or not, considering how much healing output can be done.


    Enlighten me and us.

    I'd say it's a combination of things over the last 4 or 5 seasons. Back in S2, Shield Resists took a hard nerf across the board. In S3, they removed the stacking penalties to consoles but cut the shield boosting console values by nearly half.

    Then you have console set bonuses from STF's, Missions and C-store packs. Not to mention Duty Officer Space Passives that give bonuses to various abilities.


    The Jem Ship, well.... Combine all that with an escort that has the highest base turnrate, near-cruiser hull strength and 4 Engineering console slots. The bug is pretty much a tea-bag temple.
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  • xtremenoob1xtremenoob1 Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I miss the bop spike potential from S2/3. Fun times! Nothing like 75k BO3 critz for those naughty cruisers.

    drunk, SNB doff I bet.
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I miss the bop spike potential from S2/3. Fun times! Nothing like 75k BO3 critz for those naughty cruisers.

    drunk, SNB doff I bet.

    i bet you figured it, i didn't live long enough to see if i lost all my active abilities wile it happened. running abilities make you about 200% harder to kill, something that can just remove all of them as soon as a weapon strike hits you is an i win button in the truest sense of the word. before i hated them on principle, i never noticed their effect ever hitting me, now i really hate them :mad:
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    just wait till i get the TSI vrs TRH vid up (hopefully by sunday... friggin huge file.... 110gig i gotta process)

    you'll see moments when the tsi team knew an alpha was comming and buffed the target and poof. the guy would still vanish.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
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  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    maicake716 wrote: »
    just wait till i get the TSI vrs TRH vid up (hopefully by sunday... friggin huge file.... 110gig i gotta process)

    you'll see moments when the tsi team knew an alpha was comming and buffed the target and poof. the guy would still vanish.

    Perhaps you just just need to turn on the Era signal, or something.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    last I checked +30 is +30... unless cryptic screwed something up... perhaps you should post that in the bug report section then.

    I experienced similar increases with my DHC as posted in this thread (+/- 0.1): http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=457491&highlight=passive

    As far as I can tell, it has always worked this way.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    - Base damage amounts have increased for the average player thanks to fleet weapons, yes I know most prefer their acc x3 or what have you but fleet weapons are very under-rated then you also have the better consoles and base damage boosters which effect...

    - Crit rates have increased nearly doubling in chance, and that will go threw the roof once the new rommie boffs are working correctly and the higher your base damage the more effective your crit becomes and then we have...

    - SNB doffs are stupid broken. There is no real fix for them beyond a 'strip immunity' for a few seconds either. And last but not least...

    - Weapon power became a soft cap again which does help beams more than cannons but it does still boost cannons a bit especially with even more items with +power on them.

    Or I could be wrong who knows.
  • edited December 2012
    This content has been removed.
  • devorasxdevorasx Member Posts: 693
    edited December 2012
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    I don't think damage has increased that much. One question, devoras... have you recently re-started pugging? Because pugs can pretty much be like that...

    I pug, pugmade and premade on an equal level, but i ecnounter more the massive dmg spikes, that is instasplats, when facing premade vs premade. In pug matches i rarely see it happen to me.
    Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!

    PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    devorasx wrote: »
    I pug, pugmade and premade on an equal level, but i ecnounter more the massive dmg spikes, that is instasplats, when facing premade vs premade. In pug matches i rarely see it happen to me.

    Your running into teams with dedicated 20%+ crit chance spikers... that are likely running the omega amp. If you have even the slighletst debuff on you and someone rolls a string of 125 power DHC on your with 20%+ crit chance... yes you are going to get spiked down.

    I am not saying its an issue... I havn't done any premade since season 7 launched and 90% of the critz guys headed to mwo. However I think its clear how a dedicated team spiker could do what you describing these days... from time to time before someone would get lucky and roll 3-4 crits in a row on someone that wasn't super debuffed... however it is much more likely these days. The passives and consoles don't seem like much but I think people have figured out that you throw another 2-6% on your spikers weapons with Crth and your golden.

    A simple way to understand what is happening is to look at some simple probability math...
    1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y ) for instance to see how likely one of your shots will crit one...

    Previously most escort spikers ran around 12% and likey ran ACCx3 weapons, they hit debuffed targets hard but they did TRIBBLE dmg to anyone else and racked up stupid 1mil+ dmg numbers every game.

    With 4 dual heavy cannons Thats about 40% chance to land a crit not counting overage from debuffs. (critical on one cannon out of the 4 firing)

    Now lets forward to S7... lets dump those [acc]x3 for [acc] [crth]x2... still enough acc to land with skill tree points and traits... Throw in the passive and consoles... Boom 22% crit rate. and now the math says... 63% chance that one cannon crits every cycle of 4.

    Thats just calculating one critical in a cylce of 4 shots (one volley pretty much). I think its clear to understand how a escort on you that is build in such a way can put out plenty of high dmg critical cannon hits, consistently. In fact if you consider the average time that most of us consider fast will involve 2-3 round of cannon fire... the chances of them NOT hitting 4-5 crits on you is very low. After 3 rounds of fire 1 crit is almost a mathematical certainty... 2 is almost as likely... 3-4 yes it can pretty much relied on.

    I have talked to a few people in game lately that still insist that ACCx3 is the best weapon hands down for a tactical... and frankly considering all the extra Crit that is the game right now they are dead wrong. Crthx2 on your guns increase the chances of landing a crit in one round of fire by almost 10%, counting all the other consoles ect on both.

    Accx3 relies on people doing nibble dmg for entire matches... and really only spiking when a team mate debuffs the heck out of someone. (hence we had 2 hour matches with escorts with stupid high dps numbers... yet the matches took HOURS)

    Now post S7... we can build for crazy crit builds... and instead of doing nibble dmg for entire matches... we miss slightly more while people have defense buffs up... and when they don't we rack enough crits on them to get the job done... 2 things happen 1 matches END... 2 nibble dmg that gets healed is reduced. Some of you may parse data and still claim your accx3 are better, however your wrong... which is why Vets like devorasx are left going WTH just happened... before we did NOT have spike... now we do. Real spike that ends folk. Welcome to S7... the bad news is right now there is a handful of forward thinkers and good pilots running crit builds... soon it will catch on like accx3 did. lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • illcadiaillcadia Member Posts: 1,415 Bug Hunter
    edited December 2012
    last I checked +30 is +30... unless cryptic screwed something up... perhaps you should post that in the bug report section then.

    Weapons consoles apply damage boost directly, they do not add +30 to your Weapons Training Skill.

    Thus, the damage increase from the rep ability is different than the damage increase from a console, because they are factored on entirely different math. That the number involved (30% vs +30 to skill) is the same is entirely coincidental.
  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    also keep in mind that we have tac team now.

    we didnt back then.



    tac team now means you have to do up to 4x the damage to just get to through one shield facing.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
    Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
    Do you even Science Bro?
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