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An idea: Change Technician DOFFs

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited December 2012 in PvP Gameplay
This is just a thought I've been having today, and that Technician DOFFs, are rather on the borderline of being OP. They are in that they can reduce so many cool downs for ALL BOFF abilities, at the cost of only one LT. engineer slot, and 3 space DOFF slots. Compare that to say AP DOFFs, which are very powerful, they only affect though, 3 abilities, nothing more, and can even allow for nearly 100% uptime just about on those.

Yet Technicians reduce ALL cooldowns, and tacs also have Tac Initiative, while Scis can use Photonic Officer (not often seen, but it's out there), along with the Fleet Elite Deflectors, and various other DOFFs to reduce CDs.

Engineers and engineering abilities...not quite so much.

So, my main thought is this:

Change Technicians to only affect Engineering cooldowns. I know that'd TRIBBLE off a lot of people, but honestly, there's so much out there that helps tacs and scis hugely with CDs, not so much for engineers. The purple Technicians would still reduce CD by 10% each.

Now that would bring them more 'evenly' with the other two classes in that each would have their own unique means of reducing CDs. I know as it stands, any class can use an AtB build, but it also means that it helps everyone equally, and thus the power difference between the three classes really isn't changed.

I doubt this will be a very popular idea of course, but it's one I wanted to put out.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Post edited by mimey2 on
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Comments

  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I'm not really for the idea. As it is, it is true that the cooldown reduction is very useful. However, one has to bear in mind that using Aux2Bat has a very large opportunity cost. It

    a) Takes up one or even two Lt BoFF slots that could be used for other things

    and

    b) Dampens Aux power significantly. Due to the fact that many standard heals rely on Aux power, this renders an Aux2Bat user more squishy with his weaker heals.

    Furthermore, to achieve sufficient benefits from the cooldown reduction to warrant slotting Aux2Bat, three Purple technicians are often needed. Taking up 3 out of your 5 available active DoFF slots carries, again, a significant opportunity cost as that person would lose out on many other useful Doff abilities.

    In other words, I believe that the large opportunity cost of mounting the Technician combo renders the Doffs fairly balanced, if just a smidgen on the OP side.

    Finally, affecting engineering powers alone would not be a good way of nerfing Technicians, IMO. This is because using the lieutenant stations for A2B would then be almost the same as running copies of engineering powers in those two stations.

    Just my two cents.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Tbh, it's OP and I only run w/1 slotted on my tac. I'd be worried people could still chain epts3 and rsp w/the changes suggested. I'd rather it just in effect copy a single Lt. Commander ability using 3 purple Doffs.

    @scurry

    If a player is worried about aux, they use could EPTA now that aux2batt no longer shares a cooldown w/emergency powers.

    You also left out the power gain to weapons, shields, and engines from using Aux2batt. In fact it can be quite large if the power is shifted to max aux prior to using aux2batt.

    Also, 1 aux2batt can be triggered 2x w/longer cooldown abilities like RSP making 1 copy 2. It also makes 1 EPTS3 nearly 2. It speeds up longer cooldown repairs like Hazzard Emitters. It also speed up APO nicely. Running 2 basically means your trading 2 Lt Boff slots and 3 Doffs to double your remaining boff powers and getting some nice power boosts while you're at it. Now compare that to the 16k fleet BoP for just one extra Lt Commander Boff.

    In the end it can give anyway from 1.3 to 2.0x the effective boff layouts and a nice power boost to critical systems w/a means to restore power to the aux drained. Imo, it's too much.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Point taken. I didn't realise how big the power gain to other subsystems was. In that case, I would say that it's a bit much. However, I still disagree with the OP's method of nerfing it.

    Some suggestions:
    1. Re-introduce shared cooldown with EPtA, if not other EP powers. This would help increase the cost of A2B.

    2. Randomise cooldown reduction. Maybe, instead of reducing all cooldowns, make it reduce 2 randomly selected ones.

    3. Cap the number of technicians slotted at one.
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I'm not sure what Cryptics intentions were when changes to Aux2Bat were made and if they had double Aux2Bat builds in mind, but I don't see them as being OP per se. For a large number of ships and roles they simply aren't viable at all (escorts, healers, most sci ships), either by not having enough engineering capabilities or just because of too many drawbacks. They are still niche builds.

    Builds like tactical cruisers or the vet ship for example, where double Aux2Bat can be utilized are powerful tools for the role they are trying to fulfill, but as scurry has said it comes with a price. You need 2 lt. engineering slots, 2 or 3 doffs (depending on their quality), you can't use Aux2SIF, unreliable aux power for science skills, you basically have to run EPtA and aux batteries. Yes it will double all remaining skills, but it also demands a lot.

    For me such builds come with enough cons to justify the pros. Things that could be discussed as being op or at least questionable are, how specific skill work with Aux2Bat. For example Warp Plasma being active longer than it's cooldown could be questioned, but IMHO that's something that should be addressed by looking at the powers and not by destroying whole build options.

    Edit: As for the power levels, they aren't as impressive as people may think. Compare it to an escort. Running 125 weapons and 50 shields plus an EPtS / EPtE Damage Control Eng cycle almost does the same without eating your aux power for a good amount of time. The additional power is nice, but not as much of an advantage as it sounds and definitly not the selling point.

    decker999
    Join Date: Aug 2010
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    I don't think it makes a lot of sense to build this intricate system of global cool downs only to provide something that so easily circumvents that system. In some other games you have to go to great lengths to speed up your attacks/defenses even just a little bit, which is still a very significant thing.

    If you were limited to using only one Tech doff and left them alone, or if you reduced the effect of three stacked to the level of a single Tech doff, that would be more balanced. Currently, Aux2Bat & Techs work on every Boff ability, including itself and additional Aux2Bats, basically allowing you to chain certain long term cool down abilities before the first instance is done being used (war plasma, for example). A Cruiser doesn't even need more than two different Emergency Powers and I haven't tried but can probably make it with just one.

    I like the idea behind this combination. I especially like that they boosted a lackluster skill to make it a viable option again. It just seems like their typical over reaction. Maybe the idea was to touch it up once significantly enough that it'll shut us up and they can leave it alone. I understand they have other things to do be we really need more carefully planned adjustments. Anything they might do now to bring it back in line is going to hurt because some builds are built around having effectively 1.75 times more Boff skills available than any other no boldly ship.

    Limiting us to one Doff, or reducing the three stacked bonus to the current level of a single doff, would still be very effective without totally disregarding the existing system of cool downs. I suspect that, in spite of some recent conversations over the past few months, most people haven't used it to discover just how powerful this combination is. It's really not as costly as you might think. It would be nice to see some movement on this before too many get too attached if at all possible.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    what is tech doffs and AtB doing to balance? not much of anything. the only thing it really does is make a tac heavy cruiser builds not be TRIBBLE poor compared to just sticking that tac in an escort. a few of the ships with more spread out stations its nice on though, but the great big disadvantage of having nearly no aux makes healing a pain, and makes almost all sci abilities have almost 0 effectiveness.

    it doesn't at all make escorts, heal cruisers, or sci ships better. escorts already have all the tac stations they need to double up skills for full up time, and you cant RSP with it then. same with sci ships, only its even worse, they have no aux to work with at all. heal cruisers? how exactly are they going to heal effectively with no aux? ET3 is only gonna get you so far.

    so it only really helps niche builds, and brings them closer to being as viable options as heal cruisers, dps escorts, and control sci ships.

    i run mainly 2 AtB ships, because i like niche ships. i get my TRIBBLE kicked all the time in them too. im no god of death with reduced cooldowns, i'm just nearly as dangerous as a ship in the 3 core roles.
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    But it doesn't circumvent global cooldowns. Whatever you do, you won't go below 15 seconds for different EPtX, below 30 seconds for a single EPtX or 15 seconds for Rapid Fire for example. Warp Plasma, which I also mentioned as example, is different and could be fixed by simply increasing its global without harming whole builds.

    Cruisers and every other ship without Aux2Bat also only need 2 different EPtX with Damage Control DOffs, even only 1 EPtX, though not as reliable, would be enough. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but for me it's not more over the top in the right hands than any other well thought out build.

    decker999
    Join Date: Aug 2010
  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    One of my toons, flies an A2B build, and I'm loving it. However, the opportunity cost as DDIS already mentioned is pretty high. It's a niche build, with ok results. Basically its all pretty nicely balanced, especially when you consider that you can get all DOffs and gear for an A2B freely in game. Without much of a grind.

    Eng class in general, Temp Set Tric Bombers, Friggin Danoobes on every friggin FED ship, broken Rep system skillz, ,....I mean these are all immediate balance problems in need of fixing asap.

    A2B isn't even on the same list.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    and only limiting it to 1 doff would make the whole thing worthless. you couldn't cycle essentials like EPtS1 with it, and all the skills that you could have 2 copies of you would need 2 copies of, making it pointless. you would be significantly gimped running 1 copy with the doff vs just 2 copies. that makes the opportunity cost of that eng LT station even higher too. also if you go the AtB route AtS and AtD are unavailable to you completely. AtS is one of the best heals in the game.

    in theory its sound really over the top op, but there are only a handful of ships its of any use on at all. and these ships are doing something they arent meant to do, but tech doffs are what makes it workable.
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    It's making the issues of power/ability spam that much worse by bring cool downs unnecessarily too far down.

    It doesn't circumvent the global directly, but by bringing the cool down to global levels, with some abilities they are still having an effect while its ready to be used again. Whereas using the Team doffs only effects a specific Team, Technicians effect everything and provide additional benefits. In the past, if you wanted to protect or exploit (not the bad kind) something you tied up a couple of valuable ability slots. In this case you basically double up on everything and it costs a few doff slots with an Aux2Bat.

    The standard, most basic, buils is two EPtS, two Teams, two weapon abilities, two heals like hazards or transfer shield strength. In this "niche" build you still get all that and then some because you upon up slots to include additional abilities. That is a more varied build by virtue of being exactly the same plus. Sure, compared to the current cool down reduction, a change would prevent people from almost perfectly chaining a single ability with itself. The real challenge then would be to fill that gap with one of the new abilities you gain by not doubling up AND having to consider cool downs.

    We really need to bring the amount of ability spam from doffs, boffs, and universal (entirely unrestricted) consoles down. If having nearly twice as many abilities on a ship is the only way to make it useful then I agree, something definitely needs to be done for that ship somehow. I just don't understand the point of having cool downs at all if virtually negating them is ok.

    It's not like this specifically is the biggest issue in the game but we keep spirally away from accessibility and tactics to spam and power creep.
    __________________________________________
    Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
    It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
    May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
  • redrickyredricky Member Posts: 1,004 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I was giddy over the changes that let you double up on A2B but I've realized that it's not really as OP as I thought it would be. I certainly don't think A2B builds are dominating PvP.

    I think people are tossing out "It only takes a few doff slots" out there a little too lightly. This, by itself, is huge.

    If you've ever run it, you should know that you have to run 2 copies. There aren't a lot of ships that can do that without giving up a Ltc slot for it, which is doing it wrong. So we're talking Cruisers.

    Tac
    Tac, Tac

    Eng Eng Eng Eng
    Eng Eng Eng

    Sci Sci

    Every ship has 12 abilities (yes BoPs be quiet OCTD), and if you told me you could get all of them to global I would say that's OP. But you only get 10 because 2 of them are A2B.

    Tac
    Tac, Tac

    Eng X Eng Eng
    Eng X Eng

    Sci Sci
    Even if you run EPTA and have some juice in your Aux tank your heals are going to be pretty much a wash because they'll come up faster but be weaker. I do think a low power HE for the cleanse with better uptime will be increasingly attractive in an age of HYT Plasma, so yeah that's a plus for the build.
    Tac
    Tac, Tac

    Eng X Eng Eng
    Eng X Eng

    Sci Sci
    A Tac is going to get the Tac abilities at global anyway (dead Aux so no healers for you, Tac captains only need apply), so we're really talking about 2 or 3 abilities at global while TI is down which otherwise wouldn't be.
    Tac
    Tac, Tac

    Eng X Eng Eng
    Eng X Eng

    Sci Sci
    2xEPTx at global is common, you're going to run that in a cruiser anyway so nothing special here.
    Tac
    Tac, Tac

    Eng X Eng Eng
    Eng X Eng

    Sci Sci
    Which leaves the 3 top Eng abilities. Here's the whole reason you run this. EWP, perma. RSP at global. Plus 1 more, probably DEM. If you have a problem with perma EWP eating you, yell at drunk. One person murderfacing you with a build doesn't mean it's the build.

    So the idea to make this apply only to Eng powers is kind of senseless. Tacs will still have TI, and still get the 3 tac-buffable abilities that are the entire purpose of running this.

    But really, do you still think it's OP? Try it out. It boxes you into a very small selection of boff layouts, hamstrings burst healing, and takes 3 doffs and 2 boffs. A cruiser is going to be left without Aux2Sif, so only a watered down HE and maybe ET sharing global with TT for hull heals.

    You get 3 high level Eng powers at global (instead of two if you dropped Aux2Batt and just doubled up), Tac abilites at global while TI is down, and weaker heals more often.

    Yes, you get power in the other 3 subsystems too, but that's aside from the cd that seems to have people bent out of shape, and we all know nobody ran this before Tech doffs, so be real.

    Like I said, drunk has made this shine, so if he's the one stomping a mud hole in your pug-made, sorry it ain't the build it's him.

    Now there may be one true secret to real ultimate OP A2B, but I'm not sharing just yet because exchange prices are still ridiculous and I'm not even sure if it will work. I told drunk about it the other night, though. So if you find that I'm the one dominating the arenas you can be sure it's OP because in that case it won't be any talent on the part of the pilot. :D
    _______________
    CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
    Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Engineer Captain
    Dual AtB
    EPtA
    Energy Siphon
    EPS Power Transfer
    Plasmonic Leech
    (and when available, the AMACO Shield)

    You're not going to have Aux issues. You'll spend most of your time at 125/125/80-90+/125. Heck, the Eng Pwr will likely be higher with the AMACO.

    There's a bug in the system that it doesn't always drain Aux for the AtB, sometimes you'll even get the Aux from the AtB that it's giving Wep/Shd/Eng so you'll have more Aux than you started with - course, there's also the bug where it will sometimes zero Aux. When that happens, you pop an Aux battery and you're fine again - back to the steady bug of it not draining Aux and the Aux battery will likely be off of CD before you zero Aux again.

    They've obviously not tested running dual AtB with 3 Tech DOFFs in conjunction with Engineers, EPtA, Energy Siphon, Leech, etc, etc, etc.

    Still, I think it's a management nightmare and I definitely give props to those that can pull it off seamlessly. For me, I prefer the simpler route of running DCEs and Conns for TT and EPtS/EPtW.
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    stevehale wrote: »
    It's making the issues of power/ability spam that much worse by bring cool downs unnecessarily too far down.

    It doesn't circumvent the global directly, but by bringing the cool down to global levels, with some abilities they are still having an effect while its ready to be used again. Whereas using the Team doffs only effects a specific Team, Technicians effect everything and provide additional benefits. In the past, if you wanted to protect or exploit (not the bad kind) something you tied up a couple of valuable ability slots. In this case you basically double up on everything and it costs a few doff slots with an Aux2Bat.

    The standard, most basic, buils is two EPtS, two Teams, two weapon abilities, two heals like hazards or transfer shield strength. In this "niche" build you still get all that and then some because you upon up slots to include additional abilities. That is a more varied build by virtue of being exactly the same plus. Sure, compared to the current cool down reduction, a change would prevent people from almost perfectly chaining a single ability with itself. The real challenge then would be to fill that gap with one of the new abilities you gain by not doubling up AND having to consider cool downs.

    We really need to bring the amount of ability spam from doffs, boffs, and universal (entirely unrestricted) consoles down. If having nearly twice as many abilities on a ship is the only way to make it useful then I agree, something definitely needs to be done for that ship somehow. I just don't understand the point of having cool downs at all if virtually negating them is ok.

    It's not like this specifically is the biggest issue in the game but we keep spirally away from accessibility and tactics to spam and power creep.

    And to repeat it again, there are only a handful of ships where double Aux2Bat is possible and/or makes sense at all. All Aux2Bat does is bring a couple ships almost on-par to other ships, it makes things like tac cruisers viable. You really think those tac cruisers, vet ships and maybe a few BoPs or sci ships are responsible for all ability spam?

    I don't know if or how many double Aux2Bat builds you've flown, but you seem to be unaware of how much healing you actually trade in for reduced tactical cooldowns and a little bit more control. Also, you have to consider cooldowns with these builds a lot, not even speaking about the time were you have zero or low aux power and your aux battery is on cooldown.

    I honestly don't know about the bug virusdancer talked about. I fly a couple double Aux2Bat builds on both sides and never ran into this. Even if, again, in such case the bug would have to be fixed and not the whole possibilities of such builds has to be rendered useless. It's not like my Fleet Excelsior is dominating the battlefield and suddently Defiants stand no chance in comparison.

    decker999
    Join Date: Aug 2010
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    scurry5 wrote: »
    I'm not really for the idea. As it is, it is true that the cooldown reduction is very useful. However, one has to bear in mind that using Aux2Bat has a very large opportunity cost. It

    a) Takes up one or even two Lt BoFF slots that could be used for other things

    and

    b) Dampens Aux power significantly. Due to the fact that many standard heals rely on Aux power, this renders an Aux2Bat user more squishy with his weaker heals.

    Furthermore, to achieve sufficient benefits from the cooldown reduction to warrant slotting Aux2Bat, three Purple technicians are often needed. Taking up 3 out of your 5 available active DoFF slots carries, again, a significant opportunity cost as that person would lose out on many other useful Doff abilities.

    In other words, I believe that the large opportunity cost of mounting the Technician combo renders the Doffs fairly balanced, if just a smidgen on the OP side.

    Finally, affecting engineering powers alone would not be a good way of nerfing Technicians, IMO. This is because using the lieutenant stations for A2B would then be almost the same as running copies of engineering powers in those two stations.

    Just my two cents.

    Please don't say that using an aux to bat build weakens a ship significantly due to aux being lower. Use a battery.

    Please don't say that using 3 doff slots is a significant opportunity cost. Anyone that stacks doffs uses up 3 slots. So that's not an unusual cost burden to this build. It is not worthy of note. It improves ALL boff abilities. That is unusual to this buid. That is significant.

    Using Aux to batt is an actual ability. It has a benefit just from using it, and that benefit isn't small. So although it may not be a stellar ability, it isn't a useless one.

    Affecting engineering powers alone would be a GREAT way of nerfing this build. No one would use it. Ever. It would be garbage. I don't see how that would be bad.

    This isn't my two cents. I used the change from your two cents that you left on the counter.

    It was a nickel.


    Cheers and happy reduced cooldowns!!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    decker03 wrote: »
    I honestly don't know about the bug virusdancer talked about. I fly a couple double Aux2Bat builds on both sides and never ran into this. Even if, again, in such case the bug would have to be fixed and not the whole possibilities of such builds has to be rendered useless. It's not like my Fleet Excelsior is dominating the battlefield and suddently Defiants stand no chance in comparison.

    The zero Aux thing I've seen on different captains, different builds, etc, etc.

    The uber Aux thing I've only seen on Engineers using EPS PT, EPtA, and either Energy Siphon or Plasmonic Leech (or Leech and Siphon). It's as if their formula simply can't handle the variables being thrown at it. A Sci using EPtA and ES or Leech or Leech/ES - I haven't seen it. I've not run AtB with a Tac to see anything.

    AtB is (-Aux, +Wep, +Shld, +Eng)
    EPS PT is (+Wep, +Shld, +Eng, +Aux)
    ES is (+Wep, +Shld, +Eng, +Aux)
    EPtA is (+Aux)

    So it normally goes something like this:

    AtB Aux-, Wep+, Shld+, Eng+
    EPtA Aux, Wep+, Shld+, Eng+
    EPS PT Aux+, Wep++, Shld++, Eng++
    ES Aux++, Wep +++, Shld+++, Eng+++
    AtB Aux+, Wep++++, Shld++++, Eng++++

    Course, that first AtB's going to be wearing off, to the + for Wep/Shld/Eng's going to drop off and the - for the Aux will wear off. W/S/E will still generally sit at max visible. Aux will end up being higher than it was, because it's going to add back in what it lowered instead of putting it back to where it was. So if you lost say 50 Aux, it will give you 50 Aux back... even if you've already gotten some of that back in another manner. So you'll end up with the uber Aux.

    Likewise, going the other way - if you've buffed the Aux through EPS PT, Siphon, etc, sometimes it will not drain the Aux when you AtB - until later - and bam - you'll end up with zero Aux.

    Given the CD on EPS PT... it tends to coincide with having an Aux Battery ready for that zero Aux issue.

    It's an Engineer thing - so it's not going to provide the wickedness that a Tac or Sci could possibly pull off - because you're also looking at the limited ships you can do it in.

    Also, you're extremely vulnerable to power drains and Aux targeting. Zero Aux, although it's not actually a disable - has the affect of one - you can't use anything that is affected by Aux - those abilities grey. I once ran without EPtA (was trying EPtS and EPtE) and forgot Aux batteries... that was painful. I had no Aux for almost 2 minutes...it was just because EPS PT was available again.

    I really think it's just a case that the formula can't handle having that many variables thrown at it - it doesn't keep track of the +Aux and -Aux very well with all the different timers.

    Needs to drop Aux for A amount of time because of the first AtB.
    Needs to drop Aux for B amount of time because of the second AtB.
    Needs to add Aux for C amount of time because of EPtA.
    Needs to add Aux for D amount of time because of EPS PT.
    Needs to add Aux for E amount of time because of Energy Siphon.
    Needs to add Aux for F(1-15) amount of time because of Leech(1-15).
    Needs to add Aux for G amount of time because of MACO Shield.
    Needs to add Aux for H amount of time because of Breen Dissipator.
    Needs to add Aux for I amount of time because of Aux Battery.
    Needs to add Aux for I amount of time because of EPM.

    When you add in the recharge on some of these abilities bringing them to a cooldown or triggered CD or below it - then you're also looking at it having to account for X ability adding Aux multiple times and when it needs to drop off that Aux.

    So yeah, on my Engineers I've seen the uber Aux, AtB not using Aux, and zero Aux... never tried AtB on a Tac and the one time I tried it with a Sci for about a week I never saw the issues like I have on Engineers.

    edit: And again, even with keybinds - I think it's a management nightmare in PvP - it's simpler in PvE, but in PvP - there's just too much going on for me to give the attention I need to the battlefield while trying to manage the AtB stuff. Also, since AtB doesn't affect triggered CDs - for many things it's kind of pointless. You'll end up using the first ability again before you're able to use that second ability or second copy of the first ability. There are definite downsides to it even beyond the zero Aux issue.
  • decker03decker03 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Hmm, guess I have to get a closer look at my KDF engineer then. The zero aux issue is indeed a pain, always a pleasure when your tractor beam suddenly shuts down every now and then :)

    As for the management thing. It is possible to do it all manually, but with keybinds personally I find it not much of an issue. Just run EPtX on your spacebar and apply Aux2Bat manually or both on your spacebar for a little less control. You should get used to it after a couple matches.

    decker999
    Join Date: Aug 2010
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    After using Aux2Batt your Aux is dropped to 5. It will drop to zero is any or the following happen:

    1. Your Aux was boosted and loses its boost. Eg you use plas leech and stopped shooting or use MACO and are no longer being shot at or use a boff ability like Energy Syphon prior to using Aux2batt and it weres off.

    2. You use Aux2batt w/a high Aux preset, then move to another preset w/a lower Aux value.

    3. Someone drains the last bit of Aux you had or their pet does.

    4. You use something like Aux based weapons that drains your Aux further.

    For the Fleet Torkaht as an example I could w/using 1 Aux2batt have rsp1 x2, dem 3x2 and epts3 x nearly 2. That's basically an extra lt boff to counter the aux2batt slot, an extra commander and lt commander boff. Not to mention the boosts it gives to the cooldowns of other Boff powers.

    As I mentioned before compare that to the price the KDF Fleet BoP pays for having a 2nd Lt Commander Boff, 16k hull ...

    Or compare it to the chance based Doffs that are needed to just drive the EPTx cooldowns down, or the number of attack pattern doffs needed for the same effect on just attack patterns, or the number of energy weapon Doffs to reduce BO cooldowns, or the number of Tac doffs needed to reduce cannon ability cooldowns. Yet, Tech doffs effect ALL Boffs not just a few.

    I agree it can be fun to fly, but that doesn't mean I can't see how out of whack it is compared what else is out there.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
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  • maicake716maicake716 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »

    Or compare it to the chance based Doffs that are needed to just drive the EPTx cooldowns down, or the number of attack pattern doffs needed for the same effect on just attack patterns, or the number of energy weapon Doffs to reduce BO cooldowns, or the number of Tac doffs needed to reduce cannon ability cooldowns. Yet, Tech doffs effect ALL Boffs not just a few.

    I agree it can be fun to fly, but that doesn't mean I can't see how out of whack it is compared what else is out there.

    except it makes the "chance based doff for emergency power cooldown" useless because this is a sure thing every time its used.

    also, when there is a doff power that is so far reaching it leaves little room to introduce new doffs.

    take the team cooldown doff before it was split into 3.

    maybe they need to introduce 2 new boff power-

    currently we have aux to batteries. it takes from aux and gives power to the other systems.

    why not have boff powers that do that but take power from other systems? example- for science take from engines or weapons, and for tactical take from shields or engines.

    then make the aux to battery affect only engineer powers and then make the 2 new powers effect their respective trees- the science one would effect science, the tactical one would effect tacitcal.

    and then of course whatever power is drained from would boost the other subsystems.
    mancom wrote: »
    Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
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  • spacepenguin121spacepenguin121 Member Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    redricky wrote: »
    snipped

    Other Aux2Bat layouts for bops:
    Tac Tac Tac Tac
    Sci Sci Sci
    Eng X
    Eng X
    Or
    Sci Sci Sci Sci
    Tac Tac Tac
    Eng X
    Eng X

    Both can be fun to mess around with, but I will admit that even with the trade offs already mentioned, it doesn't fully balance out having the rest of your BOff powers at global cooldown.
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    maicake716 wrote: »
    except it makes the "chance based doff for emergency power cooldown" useless because this is a sure thing every time its used.

    also, when there is a doff power that is so far reaching it leaves little room to introduce new doffs.

    take the team cooldown doff before it was split into 3.

    maybe they need to introduce 2 new boff power-

    currently we have aux to batteries. it takes from aux and gives power to the other systems.

    why not have boff powers that do that but take power from other systems? example- for science take from engines or weapons, and for tactical take from shields or engines.

    then make the aux to battery affect only engineer powers and then make the 2 new powers effect their respective trees- the science one would effect science, the tactical one would effect tacitcal.

    and then of course whatever power is drained from would boost the other subsystems.

    From a Captain perspective, I can see where Tac can live w/o Aux, Sci can live w/o Weapon, and Eng can live w/o Engines for a brief period and boost all other systems like Aux2Batt does.

    Regarding Doff boosts I'd rather see it only boost 1 high end power (Lt Commander) or boost the cooldowns of a couple of Lt/En Slots. How to go about that?, idk given the variety of Boff layouts and hybrid/universal options on ships now. Or have it do nothing to Boff cooldowns and have it reduce Captain power cooldowns SLIGHTLY.

    Edit: Given all the other Doffs toes this steps on I'm leaning toward doing away w/Boff cooldowns for Tech doffs and something else. There already are numerous Sci, Tac, Team reducing cooldowns. If anything make them specific to specific Engineering abilities w/long cooldowns like EWP/DEM/Ace Beam and not effect the aux2batt at all. Then introduce Weapons to Batt and Engines to Batt in case people want alternatives to Aux to Batt and then have another group of Doffs have a chanced based effect like there is for EPTX.
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  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    thissler wrote: »
    Please don't say that using an aux to bat build weakens a ship significantly due to aux being lower. Use a battery.

    Please don't say that using 3 doff slots is a significant opportunity cost. Anyone that stacks doffs uses up 3 slots. So that's not an unusual cost burden to this build. It is not worthy of note. It improves ALL boff abilities. That is unusual to this buid. That is significant.

    Using Aux to batt is an actual ability. It has a benefit just from using it, and that benefit isn't small. So although it may not be a stellar ability, it isn't a useless one.

    Affecting engineering powers alone would be a GREAT way of nerfing this build. No one would use it. Ever. It would be garbage. I don't see how that would be bad.

    This isn't my two cents. I used the change from your two cents that you left on the counter.

    It was a nickel.


    Cheers and happy reduced cooldowns!!
    Batteries will not increase aux levels while a2b drain is avtive, .....nothing will . For an eng to give up Aux2SiF is huge, having 5 -0 aux for significant amounts of time is huge. SO far A2B builds are the only thing in STO spac combat that actually deserves the name "opportunity cost" in the sense it has one. Most Doffs Cd reducing or not don't have anything resembling opportunity cost SNB, DEM....
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    havam wrote: »
    Batteries will not increase aux levels while a2b drain is avtive, .....nothing will . For an eng to give up Aux2SiF is huge, having 5 -0 aux for significant amounts of time is huge. SO far A2B builds are the only thing in STO spac combat that actually deserves the name "opportunity cost" in the sense it has one. Most Doffs Cd reducing or not don't have anything resembling opportunity cost SNB, DEM....

    EPtA does restore aux, I just checked. I didn't check if using other aux boostsers after using EPtA to restore are effective, but I would speculate they would.

    Also, even if it didn't that drawback is in regards to the Boff ability not the Doff ability. The only opportunity cost of the doffs is other doffs. But, why use other doffs which reduce select Boff cooldowns if you can use Aux2batt and reduce all Boff cooldowns?

    Also, what can't Aux2Sif and Aux2Batt be rolled one after the other?

    Maybe it's b/c I don't use key binds, but I don't see anything but upside to using this ability and a big one at that.

    Edit: I used aux2batt, then epta aux boosted, then aux bat, which did work to max aux ...
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    when you run EPtA, your not going to get more then 30 aux power. that makes a HE2 heal about 350 a tic instead of over 1000. if your at that not uncommon 0 aux time, witch actually disables AtB use too and leaves holes in your EPtS pretty often, even an aux bat isnt going to give you more then 75 power. thats still pretty far from the ~120+ an aux batt would give anyone who is not using an AtB build.

    lets look at exactly what ships can even make decent use of it

    BOP- can but why? AtB gives you more ability up time, but bops tend to not do much hanging around anyway, they go all in and sulk off. a bop that just hangs around uncloaked is gunna get shot at hard. low average aux with a battle cloak? good luck with that.

    nebula- here is a great dedicated VM3 or TBR3 boat. but it sorta doesn't do the maneuvering thing all that well. it cant be much of a healer, and cant do a whole lot other then spam vm, and would probably only be all that useful with a tac captain.

    vesta- pretty much same as nebula only beter. with the DHC use it can be much more dangerous and only need an LT tac. again proboly only really for a tac captain. this thing would also be damn squishy with low aux heals only.

    orb- pretty much the same as vesta and neb

    any cruiser- use it with any cruiser and you cant build a good support ship at all. your locked out of AtS, and your aux is in the toilet. this does make tac cruisers into overly durable sub escorts though, but they still cant spike near as well, just put out a ton of pressure.

    vet ship- this is the best ship with AtB, and helps counter its deep shortcomings. it effectively is only an 8 console ship, 4 of which are mandatory tac consoles, they have the lowest shield mods of any newish ship, and the 14 turn rate is deep below other escort's after all turn enhancing mods are applied. it can do all sorts of things other escorts cant do, wile still dealing escort level damage, but its still very easy to out fly, and easy to spike to death. it also has below average healing due to again, low aux.

    thats pretty much it. only ships that have at least a LT and LTC eng can use AtB at its fullest, ships that have COM and LTC other then eng have no use for it, and no room for it anyway.
  • stevehalestevehale Member Posts: 437
    edited December 2012
    I typically use my important Aux dependent powers right before I pop an Aux2Bat, since that's when my Aux is going to be the highest and it ensures that I get the most out of the cool down reduction (as well as power gain). Granted, that does make a SNB especially dangerous since, in attempting to maximize the cool down reduction, you need to have more abilities in use. But one probably still has other options like Evasives, RSP, Miracle Worker, ST/TT maybe, etc. Besides, the Aux is low for 10 seconds plus a few to get the level back up (barring an item or other ability to recover more quickly). If you use Aux2Bat right before a HE or TSS then it sounds like a tactical error to me.

    I haven't been paying as much attention lately so I've lost track of the number of ships with universal slots, particularly Lt Commander universal stations. I suppose I thought there were more than have been listed here but that's still a fair amount and we all know more are coming.

    More stations. More abilities. More spam. That's all I really have to say on it. Maybe it's perfectly fine. It seems a bit much to me is all.
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I just tested using aux2batt, then epta, then aux batt. It went over 100 aux. I haven't bothered to test w/plas leech or anyother power gain or manually shifiting to a high aux preset b/c at that point why?

    The Fleet Torkhat can do a lot of damage using aux2batt while reducing dem3 cooldown to effectively having 2xdem3, same w/rsp1 and nearly the same w/epts3. A player could go the crf2 route for spike or the apo cvs1 route for pressure defense.

    Any ship w/a lt Eng and at least another Ens Eng boff slot will be able to run aux2batt w/epts, epta and w/e other boffs they want to reduce the cooldown of at least 30% if not 60% or w/e the shared cooldown is depending on the skills cooldown.
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    what is tech doffs and AtB doing to balance? not much of anything. the only thing it really does is make a tac heavy cruiser builds not be TRIBBLE poor compared to just sticking that tac in an escort. a few of the ships with more spread out stations its nice on though, but the great big disadvantage of having nearly no aux makes healing a pain, and makes almost all sci abilities have almost 0 effectiveness.

    it doesn't at all make escorts, heal cruisers, or sci ships better. escorts already have all the tac stations they need to double up skills for full up time, and you cant RSP with it then. same with sci ships, only its even worse, they have no aux to work with at all. heal cruisers? how exactly are they going to heal effectively with no aux? ET3 is only gonna get you so far.

    so it only really helps niche builds, and brings them closer to being as viable options as heal cruisers, dps escorts, and control sci ships.

    i run mainly 2 AtB ships, because i like niche ships. i get my TRIBBLE kicked all the time in them too. im no god of death with reduced cooldowns, i'm just nearly as dangerous as a ship in the 3 core roles.

    <Stands next DdiS > I agree with you and the use of a AtB build has its on drawbacks. Micromanaging being one of the biggest.

    The AtB build idea used to be scoffed at but like any other build idea that did work it was soon adopted and went Fotm.
    Its not OP.
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  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Sooooo..... We're arguing if the cost is equal to the benefit? And about increasing aux power... EPtA works, but does A2B reduce battery cooldown? If not, getting over 100 every 2 mins isn't going to help much anyway.

    Ah, yes. About the heals, using teams isn't all that effective, given the need for tac team to keep your shields up. AtS is out the window. HE, although quick, is not going to heal much. Therefore, someone using A2B is not going to have any reliable spike hull heals, and will have a pretty low power HE as a HoT. Sure, the shields may be pretty strong, due to RSP and EPtS3, but the hull will be awfully squishy once you get through shields.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    scurry5 wrote: »
    Sooooo..... We're arguing if the cost is equal to the benefit? And about increasing aux power... EPtA works, but does A2B reduce battery cooldown? If not, getting over 100 every 2 mins isn't going to help much anyway.

    Ah, yes. About the heals, using teams isn't all that effective, given the need for tac team to keep your shields up. AtS is out the window. HE, although quick, is not going to heal much. Therefore, someone using A2B is not going to have any reliable spike hull heals, and will have a pretty low power HE as a HoT. Sure, the shields may be pretty strong, due to RSP and EPtS3, but the hull will be awfully squishy once you get through shields.

    I used the battary as an example of something else boosting aux after using epta.

    HE3 is the biggest hull repair in the game. It's over time though, and boosts resists.

    Aux2Sif isn't out the window you can rotate it w/Aux2batt if you really want it.

    You can use HE prior to using Aux2batt if needed.

    Btw I use all 3 Teams regularly on both my sci and my tac and my sci doesn't use aux2batt.

    Really this is just a lot of bad information.

    Edit: Just tested again, yep as I thought after using epta you are free to use a max aux preset and get the gains. Not to mention any other power gain there is. So, there really is zero drawback to this.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    One of the things that I did not like about using it was that it did not affect the triggered CD.

    A = Ability #1
    B = Ability #2
    X = recharge time for A or B
    Y = triggered CD for B if A's used or for A if B's used

    Regular gameplay would follow as such:

    X > Y
    You use A.
    You could use B before you could use A again.

    AtB gameplay would follow as such:

    X < Y
    You use A.
    You could use A again before you could use B.

    In some cases, sure - this works out great. It allows you to replace two of the same ability (treating one as A and one as B) with a single copy. In cases where you weren't running two of the same ability though, but they were abilities that triggered a CD on the other... well, it became pointless - it did nothing for you. You could either use A again, once more triggering the CD on B, or you could wait to use B when it became available as if you weren't using AtB at all.
  • scurry5scurry5 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I used the battary as an example of something else boosting aux after using epta.

    Edit: Just tested again, yep as I thought after using epta you are free to use a max aux preset and get the gains. Not to mention any other power gain there is. So, there really is zero drawback to this.

    Okay, I get your point here. In that case, I'm in favor of Cryptic at least changing things to make sure that A2B keeps your Aux low.
    HE3 is the biggest hull repair in the game. It's over time though, and boosts resists.

    True for HE3, but is it still the biggest hull heal, assuming Aux is low? (I know there are currently ways to boost Aux, but I'm just tossing things out with nerfed Aux in mind) Also, what about lower versions? Few Scis run the A2B combo. As such, correct me if I'm wrong, the only ship that can run both HE3 and A2B is the veteran destroyer or the Recluse.
    You can use HE prior to using Aux2batt if needed.
    Alright, I concede this point. However, I don't have the information, but could someone check whether it is actually possible to do this when cycling 2xA2B? Should work with a single A2B, though. Also, running A2B still restricts HE to certain brackets of time in order to get good levels of healing.
    Aux2Sif isn't out the window you can rotate it w/Aux2batt if you really want it.
    I'm kinda going with drunk on this point. If one chooses to mount A2B, cycling it with ATS is going to appreciably reduce your gains from A2B cooldown reduction.
    Btw I use all 3 Teams regularly on both my sci and my tac and my sci doesn't use aux2batt.

    I was going from personal experience here, where I found near-continuous TT to be essential for nearly all my builds, but I could be wrong, I guess.


    Argh, I'm going to stay out of the argument. Things did seem to make sense when I started, but I guess I don't have enough information to argue my point. I'll leave this to the big guys now. You all have probably tested things more extensively than I have.
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