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Best escort stilll?

sgtciscoinsasgtciscoinsa Member Posts: 56 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Federation Discussion
Jemahadar?

Nothing beat it? Did they nerf it yet. Been gone for a while.
Post edited by sgtciscoinsa on
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Comments

  • mrgrocer56mrgrocer56 Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Still the Bee's Knees


    /rimshot


    And yes, it is the top of the heap by a fair amount in my opinion.
  • seekerkorhilseekerkorhil Member Posts: 472
    edited December 2012
    Yeah the jem ship is still the best escort in the game at the moment.

    And will be for the foreseeable future.
  • sgtciscoinsasgtciscoinsa Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    buy why....i mean..content is real easy anyway..but it would be nice to have ac hance to get close..i have one..but would like to fly something else..just i like to be the best that i can...i was hoping the star base ships would help balance it out.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    They actually buffed the Jem'Hadar to be better than the Fleet ships. Actually, all of the lockbox ships got a buff.

    That said, there are, I believe, two Fleet ships with 5 tactical consoles. The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit and Fleet Advanced Escort.

    Both ships lose out on turn rate compared to the Jem'Hadar ship. They lose out to the Jem'Hadar in terms of hull and shield modifier as well.

    While advantages go to the Jem'Hadar ship, it's not by much (except for the turn rate). In either of those two ships, they still have the chance to take the Jem'Hadar out. It all really comes down to the skill level of the pilot.
  • mustafatennickmustafatennick Member Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    They actually buffed the Jem'Hadar to be better than the Fleet ships. Actually, all of the lockbox ships got a buff.

    That said, there are, I believe, two Fleet ships with 5 tactical consoles. The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit and Fleet Advanced Escort.

    Both ships lose out on turn rate compared to the Jem'Hadar ship. They lose out to the Jem'Hadar in terms of hull and shield modifier as well.

    While advantages go to the Jem'Hadar ship, it's not by much (except for the turn rate). In either of those two ships, they still have the chance to take the Jem'Hadar out. It all really comes down to the skill level of the pilot.

    You've just hit the nail on the head!

    In this game people think if they spend hundreds of dollars on lockbox ships and Fleet weapons it will make that said ship or that said setup the best in the game...not the way it goes

    80% of winners in the game win because of their skill as a pilot and not which ship they fly or how much real life money they've hauled into their starship
    ----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
  • mrgrocer56mrgrocer56 Member Posts: 370 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    All true. I have been lucky enough to help take down a few bugs. It requires teamwork and a bit of luck. In my Steamrunner with multiple APO running for high up-times I can sometimes hang with a bug....but put an elite pilot in one? Forget it.
  • outlaw51825outlaw51825 Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Until there are BO changes on the Fleet Defiant it will be behind the Jem'haddar ship which is utter badass for a Beam overload configuration. Defiant isnt far behind but i am going to have to readd torps if i'm going to continue to use it. I cant tolerate having a BO slot with a power i never use.

    And for the record i dumped no RL cash into anything but a reset and possibly expanded bridge officer slots once upon a time.
  • neos472neos472 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I also agree the attack ship is a very good escort but i still love the Defiant and as said Fleet Defiant gets 5 tac console allowing for some crazy offence on the battlefield and if you already have a Defiant R it is much cheaper than the attack ship just get a module from exchange for 5Million EC and BAM one of the best escorts DPS wise. all 3 are reliable ships but i am going to stick by the Defiant as the best since she is more geared to the tac side than the advanced escort and much cheaper than a attack ship (would send it to a different char than my Defiant char)
    manipulator of time and long time space traveler
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    The STO JH bug ship doesn't even come close to accurately portraying the performance specs of the TV show version. This is P2W at its finest ;)
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Nothing beat it? Did they nerf it yet. Been gone for a while.

    Nerf what?
    shar487a wrote: »
    The STO JH bug ship doesn't even come close to accurately portraying the performance specs of the TV show version. This is P2W at its finest ;)

    Maybe you should check the patrol escort which is free ,or maybe you should learn what powers to use and how to skill your toon :rolleyes:


    seems p2w cliche is used without thiking.Pay what ?Win what?
    Like I said no thinking is involved to use cliches.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    adrianm63 wrote: »

    Maybe you should check the patrol escort which is free ,or maybe you should learn what powers to use and how to skill your toon :rolleyes:


    seems p2w cliche is used without thiking.Pay what ?Win what?
    Like I said no thinking is involved to use cliches.

    The STO JH Bug has a number of deviations which make it quite different from the TV series JH attack ship:

    1) the STO JH Bug is ultra-maneuerable -- the TV series version is not
    2) the STO JH Bug can mount cannons, while the TV series JH Bug only had a single beam array front (and a torpedo launcher)
    3) the STO JH Bug has more hull points than the Defiant class -- this is contradictory to DS9's portrayal of them taking very few hits before going down

    Full details here: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jem%27Hadar_fighter

    Basically, the STO Jem'Hadar attack ship should not be any better than the standard fed escorts or KDF BoP's, yet here they are with two universal bridge officer stations that have no tactical display screens (how does that even work?).

    In short, the only thing that the STO Jem'Hadar Attack ship shares with the TV series version is physical appearance. Otherwise it is a very different and much more powerful ship under the hood.

    You can get the STO-Special-Edition Jem'Hadar Attack ship too with either a lot of luck or a lot of EC, but don't expect a TV-accurate version any time soon :D Yes, this "special edition" does give tactical escort players a big advantage over equally skilled opponents, hence the P2W comment.
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    Basically, the STO Jem'Hadar attack ship should not be any better than the standard fed escorts or KDF BoP's, yet here they are with two universal bridge officer stations that have no tactical display screens (how does that even work?).

    Who said iti is?
    Maybe you met some good pvp players using that ship ,but JH ship is not better than other fleet ships.
    shar487a wrote: »
    You can get the STO-Special-Edition Jem'Hadar Attack ship too with either a lot of luck or a lot of EC, but don't expect a TV-accurate version any time soon :D Yes, this "special edition" does give tactical escort players a big advantage over equally skilled opponents, hence the P2W comment.


    ec => grind => not pay .....

    ...win what?
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    Who said iti is?
    Maybe you met some good pvp players using that ship ,but JH ship is not better than other fleet ships.




    ec => grind => not pay .....

    ...win what?

    Yes, they are better than fleet ships. Just compare the stats:

    Fleet Defiant -- 33000 hull, turn rate 17, shields 4703

    JH Attack Ship -- 34500 hull, turn rate 20, shield 5225

    Jem'Hadar attack ships are portrayed in DS9 as having normal durability and standard firepower for a ship of its size. However, the current stats of the STO JH Bug do not reflect this -- they have more hull than the STO Fleet Defiant, higher turn rate, and better BO-layout, etc. They cost about 200mil EC, or nearly $200 real money.

    BTW, EC is not about just grind. Try selling lockbox keys at 1.4mil each, and it's quite easy to raise the required amount to get the JH bug -- just let your credit card do the talking ;)

    Better ship against equally skilled opponents = more combat wins. Does that answer your question as to what you're winning?
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    Fleet Defiant -- 33000 hull, turn rate 17, shields 4703

    JH Attack Ship -- 34500 hull, turn rate 20, shield 5225
    The shield amount is based on the shield that comes with the ship. What you want to look at is the Shield modifier.

    But yes, the shield modifier with the Jem'Hadar (1.0) is higher than the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (0.9).
  • cuatelacuatela Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Which is made even worse lore-wise, since the Jem'hadar ships' appearance were explained as random ships from the 2800. As in, they're supposedly ships from around 2374. By contrast, the Fleet Defiant is supposed to be a brand new, fully upgraded Defiant.


    Putting this in real-life terms, this would be like pitting a MiG-29 against an F-22. Technologically, there's no comparison. But even taking out the stealth advantage, the F-22 would fly circles around the older plane, and outgun it by a significant margin.


    PWE / Cryptic are more concerned about sales than maintaining accurate lore. If they were, then some ships would have a lot more weapons, some would have less, and some would have none. But this is a game, and it's meant to be enjoyed. And in Cryptic's eyes, it's hard to enjoy flying an Intrepid class in battle against an enemy Negh'var if the latter could rip the former apart without blinking.

    Maybe if the game's mechanics were different, but I don't expect Cryptic to completely rewrite space combat any time soon.

  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    cuatela wrote: »
    PWE / Cryptic are more concerned about sales than maintaining accurate lore. If they were, then some ships would have a lot more weapons, some would have less, and some would have none. But this is a game, and it's meant to be enjoyed. And in Cryptic's eyes, it's hard to enjoy flying an Intrepid class in battle against an enemy Negh'var if the latter could rip the former apart without blinking.

    Why waste the time? The Negh'var would just ignore it completely. Or ram it. Or ignore it completely and fly straight through it if it tried to intervene.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • megtrekkiemegtrekkie Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Fleet Defient Kick The Jemmys Asssss Anyday Of The Week And Weekend :d
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    cuatela wrote: »
    Which is made even worse lore-wise, since the Jem'hadar ships' appearance were explained as random ships from the 2800. As in, they're supposedly ships from around 2374. By contrast, the Fleet Defiant is supposed to be a brand new, fully upgraded Defiant.
    I wouldn't call it "brand new". It's a Retrofit. As in, ripping out the obsolete TRIBBLE and cramming in the new TRIBBLE. The Fleet variant is just a....refit of a retrofit.

    It is not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the Jem'Hadar ship could also get a technology upgrade.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    The shield amount is based on the shield that comes with the ship. What you want to look at is the Shield modifier.

    But yes, the shield modifier with the Jem'Hadar (1.0) is higher than the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (0.9).

    True... I forgot to note that stowiki was comparing base Mk X shields.

    The numbers show a clear advantage towards the JH Bug over the Fleet Defiant. If you have two equally skilled escort players go head to head with 1 using a Bug and the other not, then odds favor the Bug pilot.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    True... I forgot to note that stowiki was comparing base Mk X shields.

    The numbers show a clear advantage towards the JH Bug over the Fleet Defiant. If you have two equally skilled escort players go head to head with 1 using a Bug and the other not, then odds favor the Bug pilot.
    It's not just the skill of the pilots...it's also how their ships, consoles, skill points, and abilities are setup.

    In my old Tactical Escort Retrofit, I went up against a fleet mate who had the upgraded Jem'Hadar ship. Rather than try to outmaneuver each other, we sat point blank trying to kill each other.

    I won most of the time, despite his 5th tactical console. While we are pretty close in skill, I believe my equipment and skill point allocation helped me win. And, the times that it looked like I was going to lose, I would hit Ramming Speed and end the skirmish in a draw.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    It's not just the skill of the pilots...it's also how their ships, consoles, skill points, and abilities are setup.

    In my old Tactical Escort Retrofit, I went up against a fleet mate who had the upgraded Jem'Hadar ship. Rather than try to outmaneuver each other, we sat point blank trying to kill each other.

    I won most of the time, despite his 5th tactical console. While we are pretty close in skill, I believe my equipment and skill point allocation helped me win. And, the times that it looked like I was going to lose, I would hit Ramming Speed and end the skirmish in a draw.

    I don't consider the above a true combat engagement since it doesn't factor the JH Bug's superior turn rate.

    Yes, captain and ship builds do matter, but when measuring only the ship's performance with all other variables being identical, then the ships actual performance numbers are what really count. :)
  • jkstocbrjkstocbr Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Maybe ... but my Fleet TER with Sao Paulo skin looks better ;)
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    I don't consider the above a true combat engagement since it doesn't factor the JH Bug's superior turn rate.

    Yes, captain and ship builds do matter, but when measuring only the ship's performance with all other variables being identical, then the ships actual performance numbers are what really count. :)
    I believe my turn rate is better than my fleet mates, as I have a RCS console and he doesn't. I think.

    If all things being the same, then it all comes down to luck with your critical hits.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    I believe my turn rate is better than my fleet mates, as I have a RCS console and he doesn't. I think.

    If all things being the same, then it all comes down to luck with your critical hits.

    By introducing an RCS / gear / any special DOFF/ BOFF, etc... into one side of the equation, you have to do the same to both ships being compared if you want an accurate evaluation.

    Even if both ships run identical builds and equipment other than the ship frame, we will still have a discrepancy of one ship having more hull, more shields, and more turn rate because they are inherently not equal with their present stats.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    By introducing an RCS / gear / any special DOFF/ BOFF, etc... into one side of the equation, you have to do the same to both ships being compared if you want an accurate evaluation.

    Even if both ships run identical builds and equipment other than the ship frame, we will still have a discrepancy of one ship having more hull, more shields, and more turn rate because they are inherently not equal with their present stats.
    Yes, but the amount is negligible.

    1.5k more hull and a few hundred more shields can easily be stripped if the one firing gets a tad more lucky.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    Yes, but the amount is negligible.

    1.5k more hull and a few hundred more shields can easily be stripped if the one firing gets a tad more lucky.

    The hull and shields are not the problem -- it's the +3 turn rate the JH bug enjoys over its Fleet Defiant counterpart. If both captains are equally skilled and combat aware, then the Fleet Defiant captain essentially has to hope that the JH Bug captain makes mistakes and doesn't fully exploit his ship's faster turn rate (and superior hull + shields). Yes, the Fleet Defiant can beat the JH Bug with some luck involved, but the JH bug can do the same to the Fleet Defiant with less dependence on happenstance.

    I think we agree that luck can play a role in any combat scenario, but if I had to choose either a fleet defiant vs. a JH Bug with a lottery-sized cash prize being awarded to the winner of the duel, then I'll definitely take the ship with the best stats to maximize my odds of success.
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Jem'hadar is still the best, though the Fleet Patrol escort, Fleet Advanced Escort, and Fleet Tactical Escort can all give it a run for its money, depending on the pilots.

    On the KDF side, I'm not sure if any of the escorts are competitive directly, because they have slightly less turnrate than the Federation escorts, and probably 1-2 other disadvantages (say, the lack of a destroyer/raptor that has 5 tac consoles?).
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    The hull and shields are not the problem -- it's the +3 turn rate the JH bug enjoys over its Fleet Defiant counterpart. If both captains are equally skilled and combat aware, then the Fleet Defiant captain essentially has to hope that the JH Bug captain makes mistakes and doesn't fully exploit his ship's faster turn rate (and superior hull + shields). Yes, the Fleet Defiant can beat the JH Bug with some luck involved, but the JH bug can do the same to the Fleet Defiant with less dependence on happenstance.

    I think we agree that luck can play a role in any combat scenario, but if I had to choose either a fleet defiant vs. a JH Bug with a lottery-sized cash prize being awarded to the winner of the duel, then I'll definitely take the ship with the best stats to maximize my odds of success.
    As someone who is obsessed with their turn rate, I do not sorely rely on the turn rate while I'm flying forward to take out my target. In fact, I find it most beneficial when I'm backing up and turning, as I swing around much faster than someone with low turn rate.

    I still try to circle around to get my target in my fore when flying forward. But, against other escorts, I will often fly past them, stop, turn while backing up, and then unload into them while staying out of their arc. I may lose out on defense, but I compensate with getting more hits with my fore than my target.

    If I my style of combat were to constantly fly at full impulse and coming about, yes, Jem'Hadar works better. But, with my style of play, it can be done in any escort and still be effective. That said, the person who can keep their target in their fore will have a better chance of beating their target. If not, Ramming Speed can help finish them off.
  • shar487ashar487a Member Posts: 1,292 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    As someone who is obsessed with their turn rate, I do not sorely rely on the turn rate while I'm flying forward to take out my target. In fact, I find it most beneficial when I'm backing up and turning, as I swing around much faster than someone with low turn rate.

    I still try to circle around to get my target in my fore when flying forward. But, against other escorts, I will often fly past them, stop, turn while backing up, and then unload into them while staying out of their arc. I may lose out on defense, but I compensate with getting more hits with my fore than my target.

    If I my style of combat were to constantly fly at full impulse and coming about, yes, Jem'Hadar works better. But, with my style of play, it can be done in any escort and still be effective. That said, the person who can keep their target in their fore will have a better chance of beating their target. If not, Ramming Speed can help finish them off.

    Your play style still favors the JH Bug -- its superior turn rate will allow for faster reverse turns to reacquire enemy escorts that you fly by. The only way that the JH Bug will not perform as well executing the same maneuvers is if the JH Bug captain deliberately tries to fail >_<.
  • travelingmastertravelingmaster Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    shar487a wrote: »
    Your play style still favors the JH Bug -- its superior turn rate will allow for faster reverse turns to reacquire enemy escorts that you fly by. The only way that the JH Bug will not perform as well executing the same maneuvers is if the JH Bug captain deliberately tries to fail >_<.

    Yeah, the only thing that'll out-turn a JHAS is the BoP, and the JHAS can shred the BoP's defenses with a moderately-buffed alpha. I've seen it and experienced it. The same with the Fleet Defiant.
    My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
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