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Why Escorts, Tacs, and DHCs work so well

bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
edited December 2012 in Federation Discussion
Efficiency & Synergy

Damage Output
Efficient: The DHC/Turret combo gives a ship the most 'power dain' efficiency as your heavy hitters are firing at full or near full strength while your low damage weapons are hit with the brunt of power drain penalty. No other weapon setup is as good at mitigating the damage loss from this mechanic.
Synergy: Damage output follows a simply rough formula. (Total Base Damage * Critical Modifier * Damage Multiplier * Recharge Modifier) + Bonus Damage * Target Resist Multiplier. Total Base Damage is modified by weapon, +% consoles, captain skill, and Tactical Team. Critical Modifier is obvious and modified by Attack Pattern Alpha. Damage multiplier is modified by Attack Pattern Alpha, Omega, Go Down Fighting, Epower to Weapons, and Tac Fleet. Recharge Modifier by Rapid Fire. Bonus damage are weapon procs or Directed Energy Modulation. And Target Resist by AP Beta/Delta and Fire on my Mark. As you can see all those effects and abilities when combined become greater than each would be on it's own as they all multiply and create a synergy bonus that nothing else in the game does. This allows us to kill stuff fast.

Power
Efficient: An escort has very simply power requirements that are covered by it's inherent bonuses. It has enough engine power to hit bonus defense cap and so much weapon power it is free to shift some into shields. Finally it has little need for additional Auxiliary power as it will typically only have one to three abilities that use it and will have around 50 inherently anyway.

Survivability
Efficient: Avoiding damage is the most efficient option and the escort is the top dog. But beyond that the next most important part is high resist values relying primarily upon 2-3 armor consoles and the much loved ensign ability Emergency Power to Shields that an escort sacrifices very little to take. The final important factor is survival is healing and while the escort does have a minor penalty to innate shield regeneration they do receive the same exact amount of shield/hull from a boff ability as any other ship would. In the end the difference in the survival efficiency of the ships/setups they are so close it is splitting hairs. Finally having more survival at the cost of damage output than necessary is inefficient.

Cleansing
Many of the most frequently used debuffs by the NPCs are negated by Tactical Team and Attack Pattern Omega. E-Power to Shields and Hazard Emitters, both abilities an escort sacrifices little to have, remove all but a few of the remaining effects.In addition Tactical Team increases damage, and keeps you alive. Attack Pattern Omega increases damage and survivability significantly as well. These abilities are never wasted and always useful.

Skills
The skills desired for this are always on always useful. You do not need to worry about those six ranks of subspace decompiler that effects nothing on your setup when changing ships. Nor about taking aggro constantly with a skill such as threat control. Damage is always good, and every ship has weapon slots.

Conclusion
While at the lower levels ship types do seem to have better defined limitations when you get to VA many of those disappear for the tac DHC escort captain. He still gets to have high resistance rates on his shield/hull, a fair amount of healing and cleansing, and at the same time his damage capability increases in a multiplicative manner. By comparison the engineer cruiser finds his offensive options nearly as limited as at early levels and begins to suffer diminishing returns on his hull resistance and little need to boost shield resistance or healing as far as he can. Similarly the Sci/Sci begins to finally see many nasty options at his disposal but lacks the capability to truly focus on more than one. Yes yes these are generalizations but I honestly ask you does any combination in the game scale as well as this one?
Post edited by bareel on

Comments

  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Don't forget ability synergy. If a sci captain throws all his captain abilities on at once, he'll throw out an energy-damage-reducing field here, strip buffs there, summon decoys over there, and so on. Lots of tricks, but they don't much build off each other. Engineering captains are similar, with rarely a reason to pop off EPS Transfer, Nadion Inversion, and Miracle Worker all at the exact same time. With a Tac, APA + FOMM + GDF + Tac Fleet, they directly compliment each other into one killer package deal.

    On BOFF abilities, its largely the same story. Sci powers give you lots of options but rarely work together (some do, maybe 2 powers in combination once in a while, but not usually). Engineering, same as sci, a bundle of mostly-independant abilities. Tactical? TT + CRF + THY + APO = boom.

    Honestly I think that synergy might be a bigger single reason than anything else.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    That was a very interesting breakdown on Escorts and their capabilities in the hands of a tactical captain. I agree with almost everything you said, and what I don't agree with isn't worth bringing up. But... it's a DPS based game (as PvE goes anyways)... and what do Tactical captains specialize at? Tearing faces off. What are escorts good at? Tearing faces off. Apples + Apples = more Apples. Until PvE end content changes away from pure DPS (which is a good way for PWE to lose money, so it will never happen), tacscorts will always be the most effective ships for PvE.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I'll post a different angle on weapon efficiency, probably most over looked by others.

    A tac escort's forward firing arc, while powerful is all about large bursts of damage. The raw damage isn't totally out of balance with other classes, but the ability to quickly take out a single shield facing and then hull, destroying a ship is VERY efficient.

    So if a tac cruiser using fire at will flying through enemies throwing out 4k dps (respectable cruiser DPS for sure), a sci escort will throw a similar 4k DPS but will be far far more effective. The cruiser will hit multiple shield facings, and face enemy shield balancing, regeneration and hull healing as it takes longer to kill an enemy, the escort just hits from one vector, killing and bypassing enemy healing.
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  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    That was a very interesting breakdown on Escorts and their capabilities in the hands of a tactical captain. I agree with almost everything you said, and what I don't agree with isn't worth bringing up. But... it's a DPS based game (as PvE goes anyways)... and what do Tactical captains specialize at? Tearing faces off. What are escorts good at? Tearing faces off. Apples + Apples = more Apples. Until PvE end content changes away from pure DPS (which is a good way for PWE to lose money, so it will never happen), tacscorts will always be the most effective ships for PvE.

    It did change. HOE is very conducive to a mixed captain environment. The problem is the average player in this game is so terrible that they can't handle an environment that challenges you to play properly within your class roles.

    What's cryptic suppose to do? When they make content more difficult so that control, rebuffs, support, and survivability are key; people whine and complain the content is too hard. When they make it too easy, then the Eng and Sci pilots complain they are undervalued (and they are).

    Can't have it both way folks. Either the game needs to get harder or tac/escorts will remain dominant.
  • celillarnoncelillarnon Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    It should be harder, at least at the top end. Compare the number of mechanics in an entire Elite STF with the number of mechanics for one wow raid boss http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Spirit_Kings

    Additionally, the raw difficulty is pretty low. I've finished ISE with six minutes left on the timer, and I'm sure someone can do better. The only content that has difficulty is Hive and No-Win.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    It did change. HOE is very conducive to a mixed captain environment. The problem is the average player in this game is so terrible that they can't handle an environment that challenges you to play properly within your class roles.

    What's cryptic suppose to do? When they make content more difficult so that control, rebuffs, support, and survivability are key; people whine and complain the content is too hard. When they make it too easy, then the Eng and Sci pilots complain they are undervalued (and they are).

    Can't have it both way folks. Either the game needs to get harder or tac/escorts will remain dominant.

    This is simply not true. The more difficult you make the content the more important efficiency becomes. Cruisers are 'hybrids' they are not the most efficient at anything not healing not tanking not cc nothing. They do it all, and do it all well enough for most, but they are not the best. Increasing difficulty will simply make the problem more obvious. The only role that escorts are not the most efficient in are healing and energy drains that's it. But I'd rather not get into that here.

    However they have created two new pieces of content that DO manage to avoid this issue. Starbase Blockade and Azure Nebula Rescue. Those missions are designed around completing an objective and you are free to do so in any manner you choose. You can heal, tank, destroy, cc, or a combination thereof. That style of content does allow a hybrid to shine.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    HOE is very conducive to a mixed captain environment. The problem is the average player in this game is so terrible that they can't handle an environment that challenges you to play properly within your class roles.

    Thing is most of this game is single player. Building a solid heal/support ship is pretty useless if you spend most of your time as the only friendly ship in a map, and in the end you still need to do the killing yourself. And as for STFs, they're DPS oriented and I want to have to depend on and coordinate with my questionable teammates as little as possible, certainly not expect them to fit into some predefined role or be myself so pigeonholed. For the most part this is not a team game, and insulting other players for not playing how you think they should serves no purpose.
  • eatsmarteatsmart Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Actually, it comes from a quirk in the way boff powers/captain powers interact addatively.

    Lets say I have an ability which makes me fire twice as many shots, with each shot fired at 75% of the strength of a normal shot. That power would look like this as a standalone ability:

    Normal dps * 0.75 * 2 = 1.5 * normal dps

    And lets have another power that increases the rate of fire by 20%, and the damage of each shot by 25%. As a standalone ability which will look like:

    Normal dps *1.25 *1.2 = 1.5 * normal dps

    Ok, so these two look balanced relative to each other, right?

    Ok. Now lets interact this with a power that increases all my damage by +25%:

    Version 1 - Normal dps * (0.75+0.25) * 2 = 2 * normal dps

    Version 2 - Normal dps * (1.25+0.25) * 1.2 = 1.8 * normal dps

    Now lets go silly and stick several modifiers in that total, say, +100%:

    Version 1 - Normal dps * (0.75+1.00) * 2 = 3.5 * normal dps

    Version 2 - Normal dps * (1.25+1.00) * 1.2 = 2.7 * normal dps

    Cannon rapid fire and torpedo spread are both powers that get to exploit this mathematical interaction and tactical captains get a large range of positive damage modifier powers to play around with.

    A sci ship with sensor analysis and with the ability to fit cannons can produce a similar interaction effect with cannon rapid fire. The strength of that build would be having pretty much no downtime other than the first few seconds of building up to full strength sensor lock.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    This is simply not true. The more difficult you make the content the more important efficiency becomes. Cruisers are 'hybrids' they are not the most efficient at anything not healing not tanking not cc nothing. They do it all, and do it all well enough for most, but they are not the best. Increasing difficulty will simply make the problem more obvious. The only role that escorts are not the most efficient in are healing and energy drains that's it. But I'd rather not get into that here.

    However they have created two new pieces of content that DO manage to avoid this issue. Starbase Blockade and Azure Nebula Rescue. Those missions are designed around completing an objective and you are free to do so in any manner you choose. You can heal, tank, destroy, cc, or a combination thereof. That style of content does allow a hybrid to shine.

    No. Go tell the PvP folks how terrible cruisers are in their roles and that they are "hybrids". Flying them as a hybrid is a sure fire way to mediocrity though.

    Survivability is a premium in HoE, because 2 of the objectives are based around it. And cruisers bring more group survivability than any other ship type.

    Bottom line, your not flying it right. You can either make them as pure support boats who's healing capacity outstrips all other ship types, or you can make them into aggro magnet that can tank and do respectable damage. Both are quite useful in HOE.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    Thing is most of this game is single player. Building a solid heal/support ship is pretty useless if you spend most of your time as the only friendly ship in a map, and in the end you still need to do the killing yourself. And as for STFs, they're DPS oriented and I want to have to depend on and coordinate with my questionable teammates as little as possible, certainly not expect them to fit into some predefined role or be myself so pigeonholed. For the most part this is not a team game, and insulting other players for not playing how you think they should serves no purpose.

    Luckily everyone can fly multiple ships of different role types, so your never shoehorned. ;)

    Any solo content is so ridiculously easy you could complete it without a single captain skill at all. The team aspect is all that matters from a balanced gameplay perspective. And yes, the end-game is heavily team oriented, regardless of whether you choose to partake or not.

    Much like any MMO, if you roll into a group half-assing it with a Kirk mindset, you are going to be more a liability than an asset. I suppose we could just homogenize all the ships and make them equally capable in all aspects, cause that would be awesome :(
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    No. Go tell the PvP folks how terrible cruisers are in their roles and that they are "hybrids". Flying them as a hybrid is a sure fire way to mediocrity though.

    Survivability is a premium in HoE, because 2 of the objectives are based around it. And cruisers bring more group survivability than any other ship type.

    Bottom line, your not flying it right. You can either make them as pure support boats who's healing capacity outstrips all other ship types, or you can make them into aggro magnet that can tank and do respectable damage. Both are quite useful in HOE.

    So a personal attack and an appeal to authority.

    You want me to think this game is balanced based on its PvP that has more ridiculously insane overpowered combinations than an unrestricted MTG deck? Or the census of a group that took how long to agree an always hit fire at will was overpowered? Not to mention that PvP and PvE are completely types of gameplay. This is true in every single game ever created.

    PvP
    In PvP you face an opponent who can exploit any and all weakness that they find to tear you apart. Because of this you need to be well rounded and be capable of flexibility during the encounter. Oh and burst is king both in damage and tank. Burst and efficiency are typically completely opposite ideologies.

    PvE
    Against an unthinking unadaptable AI in encounters that are pretty much tank n spank efficiency is the priority. The AI lacks the intelligence to find your weakness or to exploit it. That makes hyper-specialization and efficiency king.

    Why Cruisers work in PvP
    A cruiser is flexible and can perform in several roles at the same time. A healer cruiser is also a tank and sustained DPS to a point. When the enemy is bright enough to kill the person keeping everyone else alive it is important they can tank too.

    An FPE with Epower to Shields 1 x2, HE 1, TSS 2, RSP I, and APD x2 and a Steamrunner with Extend I x2, HE 1, ET 1, and APD x2 fly into an STF to tank/heal

    Efficient
    By stacking resistances to near max and a powerful amount of healing while at the same time sacrificing little to nothing in the damage dealing department this pair is borderline silly. This combo was thought up in about five minutes I'm sure there are better especially if you use lockbox escorts.

    Synergy
    If we are going to the extreme end of maximizing tank potential we must look at the formula. Sustain/second = heal amount * resist * dodge. Every ship gets the same heal amount, every ship can hit resist cap, and only one ship has the highest bonus defense. And yes it can mount beam arrays if it wants.

    Why this would fail in PvP
    A human would be intelligent enough to kill the steamrunner first.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    Any solo content is so ridiculously easy you could complete it without a single captain skill at all. The team aspect is all that matters from a balanced gameplay perspective. And yes, the end-game is heavily team oriented, regardless of whether you choose to partake or not.

    For people who have been playing this for a while yes. But 1 you're assuming EVERYONE wants to be challenged when some people specifically enjoy exploiting and abusing the AI ("Now you have my permission to die" as a mindset example). 2, not everyone is experienced with all the ins and outs of the game and its not like there's anything in-game to explain why something that used to work suddenly didn't. Even coming to these forums they're more likely to be insulted by elitists than get any assistance.
    xantris wrote: »
    Much like any MMO, if you roll into a group half-assing it with a Kirk mindset, you are going to be more a liability than an asset. I suppose we could just homogenize all the ships and make them equally capable in all aspects, cause that would be awesome :(

    Again, you're making assumptions that people are building for groups. As a premade with people you know yes, build for a certain role. With a pug you never know if its gonna be 5 escorts, 5 sci, or stuck with some troll deliberately packing skittle turrets in a cruiser, and where the the odds of communication or coordination are not in your favor. If I show up as my tac in an Armitage, i'd better be able to heal myself and carry an AOE or two, and pray that if I need to CC my Danubes will actually use the tractors I paid for till they got nerfed by whiners. If I'm my eng in an Oddy, I have ES and ET if needed, but i've also got EWP in case nobody else brings any CC and some genius blows up something they shouldn't. And so on and so forth. My builds all probably contain something that would make a premade organized group groan, but when I've no clue if my next wingmen are gonna be the best players in the game or Larry, Daryl, and Daryl, I've gotta make one ship good at its primary, but able to at least half-decently cover everything else too. And when I'm running all alone, that goes double.

    There's this assumption that everyone plays or even desires to play your way at your skill level. That isn't always the case, and the derogatory comments of all the 'Kirks' out there certainly doesn't help matters. We play our game, you play yours; I don't see why thats such a problem.

    PS
    A ship that could do everything, doesn't rate Grade A in any one thing but gets Grade B in everything? Sounds awesome to me.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    So whats the point of your opening post Bareel? That the fighter/ damage dealing class is the best choice in both effect and how its class meshes in a game where PewPew is the deciding skill needed in 90% of its missions?
    Please tell me this is not a vieled attempt to say Escorts are OP.

    Ask the Devs to fix thier game before possibly bashing a class that works well in its simple requirements.
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  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    So whats the point of your opening post Bareel? That the fighter/ damage dealing class is the best choice in both effect and how its class meshes in a game where PewPew is the deciding skill needed in 90% of its missions?
    Please tell me this is not a vieled attempt to say Escorts are OP.

    Ask the Devs to fix thier game before possibly bashing a class that works well in its simple requirements.

    The point is the method of the math behind how DHCs, Escorts, and Tac abilities all interact is completely different than the vast majority of how other mechanics in this game work. That is to say that

    * > +

    and when only one system uses that * as often the higher the numbers become the more skewed everything gets.

    It is the single thing that destroyed Diablo 3's enjoyability at endgame compared to D2 for a huge number of players. Keep in mind I've done the uber difficult MMO raid game before I do not find it very enjoyable but it does teach you just how important efficiency really is.

    And no I do not want nerfs, all my toons use are in escorts anyway. I just call it like I see it and am more than capable of adapting to any nerfs/buffs in short order.

    And lastly there is no gameplay fix possible beyond more content like starbase blockade and azure nebula rescue. If you simply increase the difficulty it will make the problem even worse for the hybrid. And right now for rankings the escort is the most efficient tank or DPS while the sci vessel with the right boff layout puts out the most healing. They are the Warrior/Cleric combo of old EQ.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    And no I do not want nerfs, all my toons use are in escorts anyway. I just call it like I see it and am more than capable of adapting to any nerfs/buffs in short order.
    I was not saying you where. I was merely curious of the intention of your opening post.
    And lastly there is no gameplay fix possible beyond more content like starbase blockade and azure nebula rescue.

    Well, Cryptic needs to earn thier money and find a way becuase these threads on the escort, wether bashing or just pointing out things, have become annoyingly too common and I still personaly think that most of the threads that are calling for a nerf (though this one doesn't) to Escorts, DHC's or whatever are wrong.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    It did change. HOE is very conducive to a mixed captain environment. The problem is the average player in this game is so terrible that they can't handle an environment that challenges you to play properly within your class roles.

    There is also a failure on Cryptic's part.

    If HOE had significantly better rewards, for example 2x standard dilithium and/or 2x standard omega marks and/or guaranteed blue or higher random MK XII drop in each player's loot bag - you would see people running this all of the time.

    Why run something that takes more time, and is in generally has more annoying OP NPCs than ISE which grants the same rewards?

    xantris wrote: »
    What's cryptic suppose to do?

    Make harder content grant better rewards, like nearly every other MMO with some form of raid mechanic.

    Add reasons for people to think about teamwork or coordinatuon outside of PvP & 1 STF.


    bareel wrote: »
    Cruisers are 'hybrids' they are not the most efficient at anything not healing not tanking not cc nothing.

    They are the best at healing/self healing (tanking) and resisting damage.

    If you don't see this, I think you really do not understand cruisers at all.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    There is also a failure on Cryptic's part.

    If HOE had significantly better rewards, for example 2x standard dilithium and/or 2x standard omega marks and/or guaranteed blue or higher random MK XII drop in each player's loot bag - you would see people running this all of the time.

    Why run something that takes more time, and is in generally has more annoying OP NPCs than ISE which grants the same rewards?

    .

    I agree. But this community would then go from mostly ignoring it to full blown bawling about it. They wouldn't step up to the challenge, they would try and tear it down to their level.
  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    . If you simply increase the difficulty it will make the problem even worse for the hybrid. And right now for rankings the escort is the most efficient tank or DPS while the sci vessel with the right boff layout puts out the most healing. They are the Warrior/Cleric combo of old EQ.

    This games mechanics aren't wound that tight. It would perhaps require people that want to play a "hybrid" to utilize a proper ship instead of trying to Tank and gank in a Galaxy. It would also push those hybrids to actually use their healing, support, and debuff skills to the betterment of teammates. So a Vesta that's doing some hybrid things that's actually throwing out heals, doing sensor scans, throwing out legit damage, tanking, tossing some control around, etc is a very doable thing and harder difficulty doesn't change that at all. But the pilot has to play that hybrid role properly and to its full advantage to the benefit of the whole team
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited December 2012
    That was a very interesting breakdown on Escorts and their capabilities in the hands of a tactical captain. I agree with almost everything you said, and what I don't agree with isn't worth bringing up. But... it's a DPS based game (as PvE goes anyways)... and what do Tactical captains specialize at? Tearing faces off. What are escorts good at? Tearing faces off. Apples + Apples = more Apples. Until PvE end content changes away from pure DPS (which is a good way for PWE to lose money, so it will never happen), tacscorts will always be the most effective ships for PvE.
    My fleet mate flies a Science officer in an escort, and he does great in PvP and PvE.

    Yes, he can put out great damage, and he can subnuke his target. Very important in PvP and PvE (especially in the Hive STF on Elite).
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    bareel wrote: »
    And no I do not want nerfs, all my toons use are in escorts anyway. I just call it like I see it and am more than capable of adapting to any nerfs/buffs in short order.

    I'll think I'll do some of that there "calling like I see 'em" too.

    You do realize that ALL classes of pilots and ships use the "Tac Math" to do damage right? There isn't a special math for tacsorts that somehow works differently for everyone else. My Free Ody and my Regent are both very good tac cruisers and have lots of tac powers... surprisingly my boff's tac powers boost my engi cruiser's damage just as they do my tacscort's.....imagine that!

    Now... I think its a real tragedy that you have all your characters in escorts. I myself am an escort pilot yet my Engi and Sci alts are in a cruiser and sci vessel respectively. My KDF tac is even known to fly a carrier now and then! They all work differently and are all fun to fly. Its a real shame you are so "focused" on what you have convinced yourself is the ONLY WAY TO PLAY that you have blinded yourself to anything else being acceptable or equally good.

    As someone that also did the high end hardcore raiding thing for a good long while I can immediately see the benefits of STO's non trinity and greatly enjoy utilizing each ship's potential. You should try to do the same, all escorts all the time gets really boring really fast.

    At least TRY a KDF battlecruiser, they really sound like what you're really after.
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    I'll think I'll do some of that there "calling like I see 'em" too.

    You do realize that ALL classes of pilots and ships use the "Tac Math" to do damage right? There isn't a special math for tacsorts that somehow works differently for everyone else. My Free Ody and my Regent are both very good tac cruisers and have lots of tac powers... surprisingly my boff's tac powers boost my engi cruiser's damage just as they do my tacscort's.....imagine that!

    Now... I think its a real tragedy that you have all your characters in escorts. I myself am an escort pilot yet my Engi and Sci alts are in a cruiser and sci vessel respectively. My KDF tac is even known to fly a carrier now and then! They all work differently and are all fun to fly. Its a real shame you are so "focused" on what you have convinced yourself is the ONLY WAY TO PLAY that you have blinded yourself to anything else being acceptable or equally good.

    As someone that also did the high end hardcore raiding thing for a good long while I can immediately see the benefits of STO's non trinity and greatly enjoy utilizing each ship's potential. You should try to do the same, all escorts all the time gets really boring really fast.

    At least TRY a KDF battlecruiser, they really sound like what you're really after.

    Ok I guess I was a bit misleading by all escort, I do fly two battle cruisers, a raptor, and a carrier at times as well. But really all the battlecruisers are to me are big escorts. And the carrier only gets flown in STFs.

    And no they don't all use 'tac math' because they cannot all effect all the multipliers to gain the synergy effect where one ability becomes stronger from another ability with few exceptions like sensor scan. Unless of course they are using a bunch of tac boff abilities but that is my overall point. If you don't get it after reading eatsmart's excellent description I don't really know how else to explain it.

    I don't care if other players bring acceptable and I do love equally good hence the BCs/raptor/carrier, I just wish more of the ships were in fact equally good. And by good I mean efficient and effective. I am one of the rare few that does care how long it takes me to kill the breen when I run the daily. I do care if I can shave a minute off an STF run for the group, or more often carry all the skittleboats to victory.

    But I give up, cryptic has done some major re-balancing with season 7 indirectly with the gear, perks, and doffs added. I strongly disagree with that approach but I'll get over it. There are now enough escorts and escort like ships that I have enough variety and the cruisers/sci vessels that aren't closer to escort in design can rot in drydock. Shame too because healer/support is my preferred role to play in games, enchanter will always be my favorite and priest was pretty fun too back in the day.
  • badname834854badname834854 Member Posts: 1,186 Arc User
    edited December 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    No, I'm telling you that PvPer push the boundaries of ships abilities, if you think Cruisers are in some way weak because you are not flying them the way they are designed to be flown, that's your problem. If you want them to be something they are not, then feel free to continue and complain, but it hasn't changed in years and many more have come before you.

    There are cruiser builds that work exceptionally well in a multitude of roles. They excel at total healing, they are fantastic tanks, and they can even do legitimate damage... But if you try and build them to do all 3 at once, or you pick the wrong platform or don't fully understand the game mechanics, you are going to be mediocre.

    Generally I would agree with you, but I would say there is a "small" exception to this: The KDF Orion Pig Carrier. I'ts just a tanky cruiser with a hangar. It tanks like nobody's business and has 8 weapon slots. Add some advanced slavers and you have some good damage.
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