I want to know the current situation. Do all console effects stack with number of same consoles types? I believe they stack according to some saturation curve. But actually I am not perfectly certain if they stack at all. When you open your ship inventory window, there are some stats. But they do not seem to change no matter how I equip the ship.
Consoles stack, regardless if they are the same type or different types that increase the same skill/stats.
However, with the exceptions of Tactical consoles, they due produce diminishing returns the more you slot the same console.
That is to say, if a Field Generator gives you 18%, adding another Field Generator will not give you another 18%. I believe it's about 23%? Something around what the original Field Generator was when you couldn't stack it and it gave around the same amount.
Tactical consoles do not have any diminishing returns, but only buff the base amount of damage off of your weapons. So, it appears to be a diminishing return when you start stacking them. But, if you look at the numbers, the increase is linear, in that it is giving you the same amount of damage increase with each console you put on.
For instance, my MK XII purple energy console gives me a boost of approximately 90 DPS with each console I equip.
Unique consoles, on the other hand, cannot be stacked.
The only consoles or buffs in game that have diminishing returns are related to defense/damage resistance. If they didn't have diminishing returns, it would be possible to make yourself immune, thus God mode.
Science consoles are probably the only consoles that stack at a flat rate.
Tactical Consoles suffer a loss of about 12% per console (that is 1-(0.12n-1), where n is the number of consoles), and Engineering Consoles, more specifically defensive consoles just have an odd way of tracking damage reduction (Shimmerless can explain this to you, and Momaw too I believe).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
When you open your ship inventory window, there are some stats. But they do not seem to change no matter how I equip the ship.
Ensure you are onboard your ship, and travelling at impulse when you view these stats. From ground you will simply see the base stats that don't take into account skill points or equipment.
ALL consoles, with the sole exception of armor consoles, stack in an additive manner. Meaning if the first console adds 100 damage to a weapon shot, so will the second, third, fourth, and fifth. Likewise if the first console adds 500 shield per facing, so will the second, third, and so on.
Armor consoles also function in this way in relation to EHP for the most part until the DR kicks in but yeah they have a layer of complexity with their math. And in all honesty it is an overly complex system that is not required at all. The standard simple armor formula of:
Resist
100+Resist
Works much better as it does scale EHP in a linear fashion without resorting to silly caps or diminishing returns but that is just my opinion. I swear the math in STO is complex for the sake of being complex sometimes.
Science consoles are probably the only consoles that stack at a flat rate.
Tactical Consoles suffer a loss of about 12% per console (that is 1-(0.12n-1), where n is the number of consoles), and Engineering Consoles, more specifically defensive consoles just have an odd way of tracking damage reduction (Shimmerless can explain this to you, and Momaw too I believe).
I just plotted damage numbers using my Mk XII AP DHC in tactical space with zero thru four antiproton mag regulators Mk XI (28.1% bonus damage per console). Here are the results:
0 AP mag regulator = 990.1 DPS
1 AP mag regulator = 1071.8 DPS, gain +81.7 DPS
2 AP mag regulator = 1153.2 DPS, gain +81.4 DPS
3 AP mag regulator = 1234.8 DPS, gain +81.6 DPS
4 AP mag regulator = 1316.3 DPS, gain +81.5 DPS
There are slight variances in DPS gain due to round-off truncations, but damage gains are otherwise constant. Based on this information, there are no visible diminishing returns with tactical consoles, thereby debunking the quoted post above saying otherwise.
I just plotted damage numbers using my Mk XII AP DHC in tactical space with zero thru four antiproton mag regulators Mk XI (28.1% bonus damage per console). Here are the results:
0 AP mag regulator = 990.1 DPS
1 AP mag regulator = 1071.8 DPS, gain +81.7 DPS
2 AP mag regulator = 1153.2 DPS, gain +81.4 DPS
3 AP mag regulator = 1234.8 DPS, gain +81.6 DPS
4 AP mag regulator = 1316.3 DPS, gain +81.5 DPS
There are slight variances in DPS gain due to round-off truncations, but damage gains are otherwise constant. Based on this information, there are no visible diminishing returns with tactical consoles, thereby debunking the quoted post above saying otherwise.
Weird. I guess either I was bugged or they fixed it. But I will ask this: What range were you from your target, what was your target, and what was it's status (aka shields etc), or was this just based off of the DPS shown on the weapons, or was this based on actual hits on your target?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Weird. I guess either I was bugged or they fixed it. But I will ask this: What range were you from your target, what was your target, and what was it's status (aka shields etc), or was this just based off of the DPS shown on the weapons, or was this based on actual hits on your target?
No target is needed -- this data was taken right outside ESD mousing over the weapon icon on the HUD. I simply recorded the projected DPS numbers at 125 weapon power based on how many tactical consoles were present. Other factors like target distance, armor, speed, weapon skill, etc. do influence final damage numbers but are not relevant to testing for tactical console diminishing returns (i.e., they play no role in determining how many consoles are present).
The same flat bonus applied to a total that increases with every step is a lesser percentage of increas every time.
No it isn't. Well, not *really*. You're looking for a compound increase, but the game isn't doing that. 4x tac consoles of the same type will apply 4x their damage increase as a static bonus.
Which is to say that it works like this:
(AB)+C, where C is your base damage, A is the combined console percentage increase you have, and B is the base damage of a weapon of that type. Thus, one to five consoles will calculate their value and *then* add it to the base damage.
Thus: ([total percentage of damage increase] x [base damage for a weapon of that type]) x [your actual base damage]
The way people *expect* it to work however, is like this:
([percentage of increase for console 1] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = A
([percentage of increase for console 2] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = B
([percentage of increase for console 3] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = C
([percentage of increase for console 4] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = D
And thus, A+B+C+D would be your outcome, with each console taking the total damage output of the weapon with all previous modifiers, including console boosts to calculate the new total.
Which, to be completely honest would be far and away so ridiculous that you'd never need to run any non-tac consoles because you'd just die the moment an escort so much as ****s in your general direction.
The same flat bonus applied to a total that increases with every step is a lesser percentage of increas every time.
If you're saying that console benefits get less as more consoles are added, then the answer is yes for resistance-bonus consoles, but no for tactical damage bonus consoles (the latter have already been shown to to have a linear damage progression as more consoles are added).
If you're saying that console benefits get less as more consoles are added, then the answer is yes for resistance-bonus consoles, but no for tactical damage bonus consoles (the latter have already been shown to to have a linear damage progression as more consoles are added).
Benefits for resistance consoles do not get less for additional consoles. The percentage reduced is smaller each time, but that's not the same thing.
Stacking resist consoles will increase your time to live, which is not the same as increasing your total % resistance.
With resist consoles, while the amount of percentage bonus decreases, the curve flattens out, the benefit of helping you survive longer is the same for each additional console you use, unless you're hitting the 75% limit because it's increasing your time to live by the same amount.
This is because percentage resistance isn't linear, but exponential.
If you have 1000 hull points, for the sake of example, and you have 0% resistance, and someone shoots you with a weapon that does 100 damage each second, you will die in 10 seconds. If you add a +50 resist console (note: all numbers arbitrarily made up here for this example, +50 resist probably doesn't give exactly 20% resist from 0%) and it adds 20% resistance, then you would instead take 80 damage each second, meaning it would take 12.5 seconds for you to die.
If you added another +50 console, you don't go to 40% resistance though (which would mean you die in 16.66 seconds). Instead, you would go to 33.33% resistance. So that sounds like diminishing returns, right? Except each console still increases the time you have to live by 2.5 seconds each.
If you were to add a 3rd console of the same type, your resists would only go to 42.85% resist, but again, it's still adding 2.5 seconds to your time to live.
So even though the your resistance percentage point doesn't go up as much when you add more points, it will still increase your time to live by the same amount unless you're hitting the cap.
So just as adding a tactical console may increase your damage by +82 each time, a resistance console that lets you live 2 seconds longer against a certain enemy will add another 2 seconds more with each one you add.
Benefits for resistance consoles do not get less for additional consoles. The percentage reduced is smaller each time, but that's not the same thing.
Stacking resist consoles will increase your time to live, which is not the same as increasing your total % resistance.
With resist consoles, while the amount of percentage bonus decreases, the curve flattens out, the benefit of helping you survive longer is the same for each additional console you use, unless you're hitting the 75% limit because it's increasing your time to live by the same amount.
This is because percentage resistance isn't linear, but exponential.
If you have 1000 hull points, for the sake of example, and you have 0% resistance, and someone shoots you with a weapon that does 100 damage each second, you will die in 10 seconds. If you add a +50 resist console (note: all numbers arbitrarily made up here for this example, +50 resist probably doesn't give exactly 20% resist from 0%) and it adds 20% resistance, then you would instead take 80 damage each second, meaning it would take 12.5 seconds for you to die.
If you added another +50 console, you don't go to 40% resistance though (which would mean you die in 16.66 seconds). Instead, you would go to 33.33% resistance. So that sounds like diminishing returns, right? Except each console still increases the time you have to live by 2.5 seconds each.
If you were to add a 3rd console of the same type, your resists would only go to 42.85% resist, but again, it's still adding 2.5 seconds to your time to live.
So even though the your resistance percentage point doesn't go up as much when you add more points, it will still increase your time to live by the same amount unless you're hitting the cap.
So just as adding a tactical console may increase your damage by +82 each time, a resistance console that lets you live 2 seconds longer against a certain enemy will add another 2 seconds more with each one you add.
I don't know if I agree with the above, simply because "time to live" is relative to incoming damage quantity. Resist gain is still not linear relative to the number of resist consoles present. Either way, resist gear approach a "plateau" instead of rising exponentially since the latter implies a curve rising to infinity as opposed to approaching but never hitting the resist cap (70% if I remember correctly).
EDIT: The link below explains it well, and yes, there are diminishing returns with resist gear:
1) Armor consoles do infact have a built in diminishing returns in the formula, that means that each console DOES NOT add the same amount of effective hit points as the first. Yes this is stupid especially considering how easy it is to spike hull resist into the heavens with boff abilities. Yes it is counter-intuitive. No it is not documented in the game. Yes it is stupid.
2) Power levels are a multiplier, just like critical hits and enemy resistance. Therefore they multiply everything except themselves.
Correct, only damage resist has diminishing returns so that players do not become 100% impervious to a certain damage type or if they are smart 60%-80% damage to ALL energy types. They would simply become godlike and no matter how much damage you produce they will simply not die.
They will be ablde to singlehandedly take out stf's if the elites were doing anywhere from 200-2k damage to them and nothing else.
Now, in the OLD set up everything had diminishing returns so that may be where most people are coming up confused by, but that is easily remedied by reading the patch upgrade infos.
I read this earlier in the quote where someone asked about energy levels. Yes energy levels overalll will determine your combat attack. if you are constantly dipping below 80% damage and in to the red line you will face crucial dim-re tat will not show in your weapons status in game but will show in your performance.
Correct, only damage resist has diminishing returns so that players do not become 100% impervious to a certain damage type or if they are smart 60%-80% damage to ALL energy types. They would simply become godlike and no matter how much damage you produce they will simply not die.
They will be ablde to singlehandedly take out stf's if the elites were doing anywhere from 200-2k damage to them and nothing else.
Now, in the OLD set up everything had diminishing returns so that may be where most people are coming up confused by, but that is easily remedied by reading the patch upgrade infos.
I read this earlier in the quote where someone asked about energy levels. Yes energy levels overalll will determine your combat attack. if you are constantly dipping below 80% damage and in to the red line you will face crucial dim-re tat will not show in your weapons status in game but will show in your performance.
No diminishing returns is not required to avoid players becoming godlike and immune to damage. Instead effective hit points could scale linearly and/or additively with a standard resist formula like most games use. At the same time though values would need to be rebalanced to make it work properly.
I don't know if I agree with the above, simply because "time to live" is relative to incoming damage quantity. Resist gain is still not linear relative to the number of resist consoles present. Either way, resist gear approach a "plateau" instead of rising exponentially since the latter implies a curve rising to infinity as opposed to approaching but never hitting the resist cap (70% if I remember correctly).
EDIT: The link below explains it well, and yes, there are diminishing returns with resist gear:
That's not really contradictory to what I'm saying. As you stack damage resist, your total damage resistance percentage does go down, as STOwiki states, but that's because percentage resistances aren?t linear, they?re exponential:
If you have 0% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 1%
If you have 90% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 10%
If you have 99% resist and you add 1%, you reduce incoming damage by 100%
Comments
However, with the exceptions of Tactical consoles, they due produce diminishing returns the more you slot the same console.
That is to say, if a Field Generator gives you 18%, adding another Field Generator will not give you another 18%. I believe it's about 23%? Something around what the original Field Generator was when you couldn't stack it and it gave around the same amount.
Tactical consoles do not have any diminishing returns, but only buff the base amount of damage off of your weapons. So, it appears to be a diminishing return when you start stacking them. But, if you look at the numbers, the increase is linear, in that it is giving you the same amount of damage increase with each console you put on.
For instance, my MK XII purple energy console gives me a boost of approximately 90 DPS with each console I equip.
Unique consoles, on the other hand, cannot be stacked.
See here: http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance
Tactical Consoles suffer a loss of about 12% per console (that is 1-(0.12n-1), where n is the number of consoles), and Engineering Consoles, more specifically defensive consoles just have an odd way of tracking damage reduction (Shimmerless can explain this to you, and Momaw too I believe).
Ensure you are onboard your ship, and travelling at impulse when you view these stats. From ground you will simply see the base stats that don't take into account skill points or equipment.
Armor consoles also function in this way in relation to EHP for the most part until the DR kicks in but yeah they have a layer of complexity with their math. And in all honesty it is an overly complex system that is not required at all. The standard simple armor formula of:
Resist
100+Resist
Works much better as it does scale EHP in a linear fashion without resorting to silly caps or diminishing returns but that is just my opinion. I swear the math in STO is complex for the sake of being complex sometimes.
I just plotted damage numbers using my Mk XII AP DHC in tactical space with zero thru four antiproton mag regulators Mk XI (28.1% bonus damage per console). Here are the results:
0 AP mag regulator = 990.1 DPS
1 AP mag regulator = 1071.8 DPS, gain +81.7 DPS
2 AP mag regulator = 1153.2 DPS, gain +81.4 DPS
3 AP mag regulator = 1234.8 DPS, gain +81.6 DPS
4 AP mag regulator = 1316.3 DPS, gain +81.5 DPS
There are slight variances in DPS gain due to round-off truncations, but damage gains are otherwise constant. Based on this information, there are no visible diminishing returns with tactical consoles, thereby debunking the quoted post above saying otherwise.
Weird. I guess either I was bugged or they fixed it. But I will ask this: What range were you from your target, what was your target, and what was it's status (aka shields etc), or was this just based off of the DPS shown on the weapons, or was this based on actual hits on your target?
No target is needed -- this data was taken right outside ESD mousing over the weapon icon on the HUD. I simply recorded the projected DPS numbers at 125 weapon power based on how many tactical consoles were present. Other factors like target distance, armor, speed, weapon skill, etc. do influence final damage numbers but are not relevant to testing for tactical console diminishing returns (i.e., they play no role in determining how many consoles are present).
No it isn't. Well, not *really*. You're looking for a compound increase, but the game isn't doing that. 4x tac consoles of the same type will apply 4x their damage increase as a static bonus.
Which is to say that it works like this:
(AB)+C, where C is your base damage, A is the combined console percentage increase you have, and B is the base damage of a weapon of that type. Thus, one to five consoles will calculate their value and *then* add it to the base damage.
Thus: ([total percentage of damage increase] x [base damage for a weapon of that type]) x [your actual base damage]
The way people *expect* it to work however, is like this:
([percentage of increase for console 1] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = A
([percentage of increase for console 2] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = B
([percentage of increase for console 3] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = C
([percentage of increase for console 4] x [total damage output by that weapon with all previous modifiers]) = D
And thus, A+B+C+D would be your outcome, with each console taking the total damage output of the weapon with all previous modifiers, including console boosts to calculate the new total.
Which, to be completely honest would be far and away so ridiculous that you'd never need to run any non-tac consoles because you'd just die the moment an escort so much as ****s in your general direction.
Set your power levels to 50, which is supposed to be 100% of the listed damage on the weapon, and the increase will probably be more noticeable.
If you're saying that console benefits get less as more consoles are added, then the answer is yes for resistance-bonus consoles, but no for tactical damage bonus consoles (the latter have already been shown to to have a linear damage progression as more consoles are added).
Benefits for resistance consoles do not get less for additional consoles. The percentage reduced is smaller each time, but that's not the same thing.
Stacking resist consoles will increase your time to live, which is not the same as increasing your total % resistance.
With resist consoles, while the amount of percentage bonus decreases, the curve flattens out, the benefit of helping you survive longer is the same for each additional console you use, unless you're hitting the 75% limit because it's increasing your time to live by the same amount.
This is because percentage resistance isn't linear, but exponential.
If you have 1000 hull points, for the sake of example, and you have 0% resistance, and someone shoots you with a weapon that does 100 damage each second, you will die in 10 seconds. If you add a +50 resist console (note: all numbers arbitrarily made up here for this example, +50 resist probably doesn't give exactly 20% resist from 0%) and it adds 20% resistance, then you would instead take 80 damage each second, meaning it would take 12.5 seconds for you to die.
If you added another +50 console, you don't go to 40% resistance though (which would mean you die in 16.66 seconds). Instead, you would go to 33.33% resistance. So that sounds like diminishing returns, right? Except each console still increases the time you have to live by 2.5 seconds each.
If you were to add a 3rd console of the same type, your resists would only go to 42.85% resist, but again, it's still adding 2.5 seconds to your time to live.
So even though the your resistance percentage point doesn't go up as much when you add more points, it will still increase your time to live by the same amount unless you're hitting the cap.
So just as adding a tactical console may increase your damage by +82 each time, a resistance console that lets you live 2 seconds longer against a certain enemy will add another 2 seconds more with each one you add.
I don't know if I agree with the above, simply because "time to live" is relative to incoming damage quantity. Resist gain is still not linear relative to the number of resist consoles present. Either way, resist gear approach a "plateau" instead of rising exponentially since the latter implies a curve rising to infinity as opposed to approaching but never hitting the resist cap (70% if I remember correctly).
EDIT: The link below explains it well, and yes, there are diminishing returns with resist gear:
http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance
1) Armor consoles do infact have a built in diminishing returns in the formula, that means that each console DOES NOT add the same amount of effective hit points as the first. Yes this is stupid especially considering how easy it is to spike hull resist into the heavens with boff abilities. Yes it is counter-intuitive. No it is not documented in the game. Yes it is stupid.
2) Power levels are a multiplier, just like critical hits and enemy resistance. Therefore they multiply everything except themselves.
They will be ablde to singlehandedly take out stf's if the elites were doing anywhere from 200-2k damage to them and nothing else.
Now, in the OLD set up everything had diminishing returns so that may be where most people are coming up confused by, but that is easily remedied by reading the patch upgrade infos.
I read this earlier in the quote where someone asked about energy levels. Yes energy levels overalll will determine your combat attack. if you are constantly dipping below 80% damage and in to the red line you will face crucial dim-re tat will not show in your weapons status in game but will show in your performance.
No diminishing returns is not required to avoid players becoming godlike and immune to damage. Instead effective hit points could scale linearly and/or additively with a standard resist formula like most games use. At the same time though values would need to be rebalanced to make it work properly.
That's not really contradictory to what I'm saying. As you stack damage resist, your total damage resistance percentage does go down, as STOwiki states, but that's because percentage resistances aren?t linear, they?re exponential: