There are so many complaints about p2w that I have decided to give it some thought.
Now once we reach lvl 50 in STO we need some gear. Like in every other MMO this requires some grind. Since there is no pvp gear we have to do some pve. Unfortunately S7 made it a bit harder to get good equipement since you now need T2 rep to even get MK X 2 piece borg + KHG/MACO shield. Still in about 2 weeks you should be able to outfit a ship to be competitive.
How does it work in other games? Well in A ion you had pvp and pve gear at release. To get the really best pve set you needed to grind.... months. Yes as a normal player it would take you several months. Now there was also pvp gear. You got pvp points for killing enemys, and some other stuff. Like defending keeps. But you lost points for dying. Yep you lost points. So grinding your pvp gear.... yeah I would say you also needed months.
Let's look at another example. SWTOR. There was pve and pvp gear. The pve gear had better stats in general and was obtained from raid dungeons. The pvp gear had a special stat: expertise. That basically pushed everything in pvp. More healing, more dmg reduction, more dmg. It was pretty... strong. Now while you did not need a complete pvp set (there were sometimes good pvp/pve combinations, there were also different set boni on pvp/pve) without eny expertise you were screwed. In order to get pvp gear you had to farm daily quests. The condition was to win. So you had to face oponnents, who were incapable of doing more than press one button and you lost. Because your gear sucked. And now you had to win, and you had to grind for a while to be competitive.
That are just two examples but basically in every MMO you have to grind once you reach max lvl. Now GW2 might be an exception, but only the arena part. You still need to grind for your wvw equipment.
In STO there really is not that much grind. Yes the new rep system changed that and also there is your fleet starbase. But you can just join a fleet or pay one to offer you access to their facilities. In the end you don't need to do much in order be useful in pvp.
Now let's look a the so called p2w. Actually everything can be obtained without spending any money (other than the veteran ship). You want that nice console? Just grind dilithium and get some ZEN. A leech is 1000 ZEN I think. With 8k dil a day that would be 15days I think with todays dil price. Thats not that bad. That means in a month you could get 2k ship. And you can get lockbox ships simply from the exchange. Grinding that much EC might take some time (depending on luck) but it is doable. Also you get dil from pvp. Meaning after about 2 weeks to get the basic stuff you could simply do pvp to get... everything (ok you need marks now for your rep).
In the end cryptic needs to make money. The best way might be to only sell vanity stuff but let's be honest. Would that really finance a game? And if you can make more money by selling ships, why would you not do it? Actually the system now is really fair. It allows everyone to get the good stuff without paying. All you need to do is grind. And as far as MMOs go, STO has a lot less grind than most. It's just how an MMO works in general. If you are really looking for instant, balanced arena fights you should probably try shooters. Calling for no p2w in pvp is pointless. What do you expect? That there is no reason to spend money in pvp? Why would any dev invest time to make changes that prevent people from spending money?
In the end the problem is something different: balance. I am fine with the system in general. I don't have to pay for anything, but I can to avoid grind. No, the problem is simply balance. There are too many consoles out there to have enough counters. And there are just some annoying abilities that are not really fun. There is no need to ban anything from pvp, all we need is to get the stuff we have balanced.
On a side note, why not look at the MOW grind as comparison. I like that game and it has been mentioned often. Now you start with a trial mech. You have no configuration options on this mech, you can not get experience but you do earn money. Also you do not have to repair/rearm your mech.
In general trial mechs suck. There are some decent ones but which are available changes every week. How long you have to grind depends on what you want. The bigger the mech, the more expensive in general. So you are stuck with your trial for some time until you can finally buy your own mech. After that you will realize that there is some pretty expensive gear around. So you are looking at more grind to actually get to the build you want. Also there are modules. They prevent some additional boni, like faster base capture. To unlock said module you need 15000 general xp. Each match you get xp for your mech and some gxp. Now you get very little gxp so it takes a long time to unlock your module. Of course you can just convert mech xp to general xp... for real money. You could also just buy your mechs for real money. Oh and there are some mechs you can get ONLY for real money. Now so far they are not really better than free mechs and lets hope they keep it that way.
STO might require you to get lvl 50 first but after that it doesnt really require more grind than MWO.
That is just my personal opinion on that matter. The problem of a grav pulse console is not that some people spend money to get it, the problem is the console. We simply have to accept the existence of consoles and focus on balancing them, not trying to get rid of them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
P2W has really became a catch all phrase for cheese consoles. A lot of the consoles/powers prior to F2P are fine, like the Oberths enhanced plasma manifold. It's just mainly post going F2P that we started getting all these crazy console powers.
P2W just seems to have become the blanket phrase to cover all of the stuff that kills balance. It's a bit of a misnomer as many of these things truly don't constitute iWin buttons in the literal sense. Maybe it should have been termed P2KB (pay to kill balance).
It's all paid, by the way. Even if the money didn't come from your pockets, someone out there bought the zen that ended up on the exchange. While I have nothing against this company making money, I do wish they were more careful with game play while making their grabs for cash. I want them to succeed because I want to play a Star Trek game.
Any of these things "p2w" items might have been fine if they operated within the existing system of global cool downs, ship/slot restrictions, and if they weren't so destructive towards balance.
P2W might be a myth but P2KB is here and it is bad. I'd like to believe that these discussions have been about balance and that we are not being derailed by semantics.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
It's all paid, by the way. Even if the money didn't come from your pockets, someone out there bought the zen that ended up on the exchange. While I have nothing against this company making money, I do wish they were more careful with game play while making their grabs for cash. I want them to succeed because I want to play a Star Trek game.
Someone has to pay. That free ship you get at vice admiral? Someone is paying for it in way. If no one would spend money, the game could not exist. If they buy themselves a tribble or if they buy a fleet module and sell it in the exchange does not really change anything. As a free player you depend on people spending money even if you only use free stuff.
And yes I too would wish they would be more careful what they release. In my opinion the problem is not their business model in general, its the balancing (or the lack of it).
If they would give everyone every console, there would be no p2w. But it would not make the game any better. I just want to point out that the true problem has nothing to do with people paying them anything. The true problem is simply the lack of balancing.
STO is pay or grind to win. Nobody is really forced to pay anything to get good stuff.
Frankly where do you draw the boundary where something is "ok pretty good" to "oh ****
this is broken" that definition can be really hard especially in sto where peoples setups are really diverse and player skill is also quite big introducing for example the gravity pulse as you brought up into the game was really game changing imo, never before could 1 ability lock down entire movement of opposing team in 1 push of a button, it lasted for 30 seconds with full spec longer than tractor-beam and it was single target?
Obvious PAY to BUY advantage, and there is my problem, do I have 400 dollars every few months go buy lockcock ships and garbage consoles that doesn't add anything fun to pvp (for me) sure I guess I could spend that money, but I don't think its cool to buy advantage with your visa card for in game items.
Like one friend told me when the SWG servers went down recently that he had spent like hundreds of dollars on the fluff items you could get for that, what does he have to show for it now?
Obvious PAY to BUY advantage, and there is my problem, do I have 400 dollars every few months go buy lockcock ships and garbage consoles that doesn't add anything fun to pvp (for me) sure I guess I could spend that money, but I don't think its cool to buy advantage with your visa card for in game items.
Well the question is, do you really have to spend money? One lucky [acc]x3 drop in an STF might even buy you one ship. No one should not count on such luck but there are ways to farm ec in this game. You can get a lockbox ship without paying money. You can also get a ZEN store ship, or a fleet ship. Also once you have your lockbox ship you do not really need another one. You do not have to get every new ship. Farming ec just is not that much fun, but like in every MMO there is grind to get the best stuff.
If you got like 10 chars and everyone wants his ship... well this could be expensive. But if you focus on one character, you can get all those little toys without paying. You just have to grind for it. The grind might not be that much fun but it is part of every MMO.
Also personally I think having new ships for pvp is fun. There might be new builds to try, new options to consider. The problem is only the balancing of our new toys...
Its the lack of balancing the takes the fun away.
The grind might not be that much fun but it is part of every MMO.
Wrong.
Once upon a time, there was an MMO that had basically no grind at all. It was called STO.
We have seen that an MMO can work without grind and excessive microtransactions (though nothing about the c-store is micro...). Just because most other MMOs decide to incorporate massive grind into their gameplay doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
I don't think I'll ever understand why people defend bad design choices. Do you prefer the grind, the per-char lockbox ships, the constant stream of new balance-destroying consoles that cost real money over the old ways of no grind, low gear threshold and per-account unlocks that were simply a convenience so that players didn't have to reroll a character to get another free ship token?
There are ways to satisfy both the players and cryptic's greed. They could offer some kind of platinum subscription for a monthly fee. (Different from the gold sub, as to avoid the lifetime problem that forced cryptic to go f2p.) Players who take this would get free access to everything in the c-store, but only as long as they keep their subscription active, after that the c-store unlocks get disabled and already claimed items/ships will be greyed out. And to avoid people flooding the market after having opened hundreds of lockboxes with free keys, they could make all drops that result from these free keys (and the keys themselvs etc.) account-locked. Think of it as the sto-version of music or video subscriptions - you get everything for as long as you are a subscriber.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
IDK who had that quote in their sig but P2W is not a problem, it was an amazing quote. If someone more skilled verse someone less skilled with a P2W item, the more skilled will kill it.
But I will admit, the only P2W items that requires no skill at all is the Klingon Drain Builds. PL,AA,drain pets, and other drains require no skill... at all... But ehh...
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
IDK who had that quote in their sig but P2W is not a problem, it was an amazing quote. If someone more skilled verse someone less skilled with a P2W item, the more skilled will kill it.
But I will admit, the only P2W items that requires no skill at all is the Klingon Drain Builds. PL,AA,drain pets, and other drains require no skill... at all... But ehh...
Fyi, a little history for you P2W Fed ships have been around for years just like bugs we can't talk about, but are free to use and abuse b/c Cryptic won't be bothered to enforce it's own ToS.
Dev admitted in a STOked interview the C-Store ships were designed to be OP from the beginning. This is while the game was Pay-2-Play and they spent a year releasing nothing of note in terms of content because they were using the subs to fund the F2P conversion. There's more problems w/P2W than just crappy balancing and a never ending power creep.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Once upon a time, there was an MMO that had basically no grind at all. It was called STO.
Fair enough. Yes there is more and more grind in STO. But in a way grind is the only pve endgame content. So they keep adding more grind. And keep in mind that you can get all ZEN store stuff with dilithium which you get from pvp.
We have seen that an MMO can work without grind and excessive microtransactions (though nothing about the c-store is micro...). Just because most other MMOs decide to incorporate massive grind into their gameplay doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
Yes and no. People need a purpose when they reach max lvl. For many games that purpose is get better stuff. There is not much else to do in pve. If you want to separate pvp from the pve grind you would need pvp gear. No there can be problems too. Like how can a new player compete with high lvl pvp gear? Also there would simply be pvp grind, instead of pve (but I admit pvp grind could be more fun, if done right).
I don't think I'll ever understand why people defend bad design choices. Do you prefer the grind, the per-char lockbox ships, the constant stream of new balance-destroying consoles that cost real money over the old ways of no grind, low gear threshold and per-account unlocks that were simply a convenience so that players didn't have to reroll a character to get another free ship token?
I am all in favor of hitting max lvl, going to the exchange, maybe doing a few quests and being ready for pvp. Thats actually still working to some extend, now the reputation system kind of sucks but I will survive it. I also like account wide unlocks but with the free to play model I understand that they needed to change some things. I have no idea how much money they made before or how much they make now. But I suppose they simply did not have enough subscribers so they went free to play.
And the funny thing is, 2 of my friends who played at release a bit came back because it is now free and they not have to spend money. Also I convinced another one to try it out. So in the end I am not that opposed to free to play in general and I accept that they have to sell something people want.
Now concerning lockbox ships: Since I am playing for some time now I do have a little money. It also helps that I mostly use MK XI blue consoles and only MK XI weapons. Also my weapons do not have [acc]x3 but mostly something like [acc]x2 [critd]. But so far I bought myself 3 ships from the exchange. That they are only for a single char sucks, I would like to have them as an account wide unlock.
Consoles: I have no problem with consoles in general, but the balancing simply sucks. If they want to release something like a subspace jump, sure why not. Grav puls? That should never survive testing. But my point is, the problem is the console itself. If grav pulse was free for everyone it would not be p2w but that would not make anything better.
There are ways to satisfy both the players and cryptic's greed. They could offer some kind of platinum subscription for a monthly fee. (Different from the gold sub, as to avoid the lifetime problem that forced cryptic to go f2p.) Players who take this would get free access to everything in the c-store, but only as long as they keep their subscription active, after that the c-store unlocks get disabled and already claimed items/ships will be greyed out. And to avoid people flooding the market after having opened hundreds of lockboxes with free keys, they could make all drops that result from these free keys (and the keys themselvs etc.) account-locked. Think of it as the sto-version of music or video subscriptions - you get everything for as long as you are a subscriber.
A cool idea but that would change what? You would still have to pay to get stuff. maybe pay a little less and get a little more. The prizing policy in general could be discussed but in the end you would not change the basic system.
I am not trying to defend cryptics balance. I am not in favor of all the stuff they release and the consequences for pvp. I am not even in favor of the prizes they sell their stuff. But I do not have anything against the model in general.
Also I would like to point out, if everyone just has everything pvp would still not be better. Maybe it would even be worse. The problem is not that some people own a grav pulse and others don't. Actually you can just buy one in the exchange as a fed. With each new lockbox you can get another console pretty cheap. The problem is the lack of balancing of all the s*** they release.
Also I would like to point out, if everyone just has everything pvp would still not be better. Maybe it would even be worse. The problem is not that some people own a grav pulse and others don't. Actually you can just buy one in the exchange as a fed. With each new lockbox you can get another console pretty cheap. The problem is the lack of balancing of all the s*** they release.
If we want better pvp we need balancing.
P2W is the main driver behind the escalated unbalanced power creep. You can't seperate the two, it's not realistic given the Mgt @ Cryptic.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
P2W is the main driver behind the escalated unbalanced power creep. You can't seperate the two, it's not realistic given the Mgt @ Cryptic.
That may be true but if you look at other games, maybe wow. They simply release new addons, with new max lvls and new equipment. Most MMOs introduce new things in order to keep the people playing. Personally I really hate lvl cap increases and I am glad there were non so far in STO.
I would still blame the unbalanced consoles to a lack of testing/understanding of the game in general. I think they could sell more to the pvp community if they balanced some stuff and made it fun to use.
P2W is the main driver behind the escalated unbalanced power creep.
Indeed. This is the core problem.
When this game was still subscription based, they had to make sure that players kept playing the game (or at least kept paying). Now it won't make them any money if they make the perfect game. They profit from making an unbalanced game and filling the holes with stuff that costs potentially huge amounts of money. A player who starts playing, buys stuff for 500$ and after a month never logs in again is the perfect customer for them now. Keeping players happy is just not as profitable in the short term as squeezing every last penny out of newcomers and then simply replacing them with the next batch of new players.
It is true that for the most part the balance issues are worse than the barriers for acquiring certain things, but per-char unlocks are only the beginning. We already have team batteries for lobi (which is essentially char-bound real money) and I'm afraid that things will only get worse.
The reason why I like this "platinum sub" idea although it would cost me money is the simple fact that it means that it puts a limit on the amount one needs to spend in order to fully experience the game. F2P means that they try to milk the few players who are willing to spend >1000$ a months/week/whatever and this is something I don't like.
As it has been said it is just one of the problems with the game.
Another is this:
Escort with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Cruiser with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Currently the escort will survive longer. This is because the escort has a lot higher defence and no penalty to the healing it receives. This is what is wrong with the game.
First step in improving pvp:
1. ALL escorts get -25% healing received from any source.
2. Tactical captain skills don't boost non-weapon based damage.
If anyone looks at it objectively the initial changes required to bring a glimmer of balance to pvp look very similar to a string of escort and tactical captain nerfs. More specifically escorts. We all know one of the key problems with pvp is the absurd survivability of escorts.
Something should be done to balance the older ships. Look into their background and study them a lot more just to figure out what to do to bring order to STO
Research and Refit/Revise/Redo Every underpowered ship in game and let the party begin!
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
As it has been said it is just one of the problems with the game.
Another is this:
Escort with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Cruiser with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Currently the escort will survive longer. This is because the escort has a lot higher defence and no penalty to the healing it receives. This is what is wrong with the game.
First step in improving pvp:
1. ALL escorts get -25% healing received from any source.
2. Tactical captain skills don't boost non-weapon based damage.
If anyone looks at it objectively the initial changes required to bring a glimmer of balance to pvp look very similar to a string of escort and tactical captain nerfs. More specifically escorts. We all know one of the key problems with pvp is the absurd survivability of escorts.
a reduction in hull is needed imho, and probably added on to that.
How about make healing from cruisers and sci vessels more effective? or make it class wise?
The Average PvP player
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
As it has been said it is just one of the problems with the game.
Another is this:
Escort with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Cruiser with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Currently the escort will survive longer. This is because the escort has a lot higher defence and no penalty to the healing it receives. This is what is wrong with the game.
First step in improving pvp:
1. ALL escorts get -25% healing received from any source.
2. Tactical captain skills don't boost non-weapon based damage.
If anyone looks at it objectively the initial changes required to bring a glimmer of balance to pvp look very similar to a string of escort and tactical captain nerfs. More specifically escorts. We all know one of the key problems with pvp is the absurd survivability of escorts.
escorts are very easy to kill now, they can't tank as before with the borg set+3 BFI. Actually crusiers are the ones who need a balance tweak, a 5 crusier premade is IMPOSIBLE to defeat, the crosshealing and extended shield stacking make imposible kill a crusier in a coordinated premade of 5 crusiers.
In premades match the escorts are always the target because they are the weak spot, u really need to learn a lot from PvP before ask a nerf into the classes.
That may be true but if you look at other games, maybe wow. They simply release new addons, with new max lvls and new equipment. Most MMOs introduce new things in order to keep the people playing. Personally I really hate lvl cap increases and I am glad there were non so far in STO.
I would still blame the unbalanced consoles to a lack of testing/understanding of the game in general. I think they could sell more to the pvp community if they balanced some stuff and made it fun to use.
If you want to play the "other games" I can drop EvE on you where all gear is created in game and the Tier1 (ie basic) gear can be used en mass to out zerg the high end gear. This means if you have enough new players they can take down older players in more expensive gear. The older players actually have more to risk in terms of keeping their clone updated which has much higher cost than a couple month old toon.
Further "new things" can mean added variety, it doesn't need to mean things like buffing shields and hull HPs for high end ships, consoles which add 240 degree AoE weapon fire, or +torp/mine damage. Seriously, over a year ago a Dev admitted in a recorded interview that the non console C-Store ships were by design better than not, and this was when it was a pay-2-play game. Their intentions are clear. It's no matter how bad they are at putting it into practice.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
If you want to play the "other games" I can drop EvE on you where all gear is created in game and the Tier1 (ie basic) gear can be used en mass to out zerg the high end gear. This means if you have enough new players they can take down older players in more expensive gear. The older players actually have more to risk in terms of keeping their clone updated which has much higher cost than a couple month old toon.
Further "new things" can mean added variety, it doesn't need to mean things like buffing shields and hull HPs for high end ships, consoles which add 240 degree AoE weapon fire, or +torp/mine damage. Seriously, over a year ago a Dev admitted in a recorded interview that the non console C-Store ships were by design better than not, and this was when it was a pay-2-play game. Their intentions are clear. It's no matter how bad they are at putting it into practice.
You post read like "Escorts are fine" which is simply not the case. Sure 5 cruisers cross healing will mean you never kill one of them. Then again it only takes 2 ships healing an escort and you will never kill that escort.
The problem remains. Healing is too powerful and escorts are too survivable. They are more separate issues than most people believe.
You post read like "Escorts are fine" which is simply not the case. Sure 5 cruisers cross healing will mean you never kill one of them. Then again it only takes 2 ships healing an escort and you will never kill that escort.
The problem remains. Healing is too powerful and escorts are too survivable. They are more separate issues than most people believe.
I believe you quoted the wrong post, correct me if I'm wrong.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You post read like "Escorts are fine" which is simply not the case. Sure 5 cruisers cross healing will mean you never kill one of them. Then again it only takes 2 ships healing an escort and you will never kill that escort.
The problem remains. Healing is too powerful and escorts are too survivable. They are more separate issues than most people believe.
imo the problems with healing are:
1. extended shields stack, that is the MAIN problem.
2. EPTS3 (too much passive damage reduction)
3. RSP (stupid, simple as that)
4. Aux to SIF coldown
1. extended shields stack, that is the MAIN problem.
2. EPTS3 (too much passive damage reduction)
3. RSP (stupid, simple as that)
4. Aux to SIF coldown
Funny how all of them spill into the engineering category. And i always heard and thought sci was the greatest sinner.
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
A functioning matchmaking system would let anyone/teams using extreme tactics/exploits/p2w/skill to just play each other, once that got sorted other tweaks could then follow. Shopping lists of changes only really make sense once like is playing like, in order to get good games at different levels of skill it might be best to have different divisions and tweak things with each division. They could even have a voting system for tweaks so Cryptic have minimal play testing to do.
Comments
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Especially if its not balanced for PvP.
R.I.P
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
It's all paid, by the way. Even if the money didn't come from your pockets, someone out there bought the zen that ended up on the exchange. While I have nothing against this company making money, I do wish they were more careful with game play while making their grabs for cash. I want them to succeed because I want to play a Star Trek game.
Any of these things "p2w" items might have been fine if they operated within the existing system of global cool downs, ship/slot restrictions, and if they weren't so destructive towards balance.
P2W might be a myth but P2KB is here and it is bad. I'd like to believe that these discussions have been about balance and that we are not being derailed by semantics.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
yes, i got someone that mad at me wile i was using a galaxy R of all things.
I faced a similar shock early on after F2P started. It hadn't occurred to me that my Compliant, obtained with a free VA token, was now P2W.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
Someone has to pay. That free ship you get at vice admiral? Someone is paying for it in way. If no one would spend money, the game could not exist. If they buy themselves a tribble or if they buy a fleet module and sell it in the exchange does not really change anything. As a free player you depend on people spending money even if you only use free stuff.
And yes I too would wish they would be more careful what they release. In my opinion the problem is not their business model in general, its the balancing (or the lack of it).
If they would give everyone every console, there would be no p2w. But it would not make the game any better. I just want to point out that the true problem has nothing to do with people paying them anything. The true problem is simply the lack of balancing.
STO is pay or grind to win. Nobody is really forced to pay anything to get good stuff.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
this is broken" that definition can be really hard especially in sto where peoples setups are really diverse and player skill is also quite big introducing for example the gravity pulse as you brought up into the game was really game changing imo, never before could 1 ability lock down entire movement of opposing team in 1 push of a button, it lasted for 30 seconds with full spec longer than tractor-beam and it was single target?
Obvious PAY to BUY advantage, and there is my problem, do I have 400 dollars every few months go buy lockcock ships and garbage consoles that doesn't add anything fun to pvp (for me) sure I guess I could spend that money, but I don't think its cool to buy advantage with your visa card for in game items.
Like one friend told me when the SWG servers went down recently that he had spent like hundreds of dollars on the fluff items you could get for that, what does he have to show for it now?
If you got like 10 chars and everyone wants his ship... well this could be expensive. But if you focus on one character, you can get all those little toys without paying. You just have to grind for it. The grind might not be that much fun but it is part of every MMO.
Also personally I think having new ships for pvp is fun. There might be new builds to try, new options to consider. The problem is only the balancing of our new toys...
Its the lack of balancing the takes the fun away.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Once upon a time, there was an MMO that had basically no grind at all. It was called STO.
We have seen that an MMO can work without grind and excessive microtransactions (though nothing about the c-store is micro...). Just because most other MMOs decide to incorporate massive grind into their gameplay doesn't mean that it is a good idea.
I don't think I'll ever understand why people defend bad design choices. Do you prefer the grind, the per-char lockbox ships, the constant stream of new balance-destroying consoles that cost real money over the old ways of no grind, low gear threshold and per-account unlocks that were simply a convenience so that players didn't have to reroll a character to get another free ship token?
There are ways to satisfy both the players and cryptic's greed. They could offer some kind of platinum subscription for a monthly fee. (Different from the gold sub, as to avoid the lifetime problem that forced cryptic to go f2p.) Players who take this would get free access to everything in the c-store, but only as long as they keep their subscription active, after that the c-store unlocks get disabled and already claimed items/ships will be greyed out. And to avoid people flooding the market after having opened hundreds of lockboxes with free keys, they could make all drops that result from these free keys (and the keys themselvs etc.) account-locked. Think of it as the sto-version of music or video subscriptions - you get everything for as long as you are a subscriber.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
But I will admit, the only P2W items that requires no skill at all is the Klingon Drain Builds. PL,AA,drain pets, and other drains require no skill... at all... But ehh...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
Fyi, a little history for you P2W Fed ships have been around for years just like bugs we can't talk about, but are free to use and abuse b/c Cryptic won't be bothered to enforce it's own ToS.
Dev admitted in a STOked interview the C-Store ships were designed to be OP from the beginning. This is while the game was Pay-2-Play and they spent a year releasing nothing of note in terms of content because they were using the subs to fund the F2P conversion. There's more problems w/P2W than just crappy balancing and a never ending power creep.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Fair enough. Yes there is more and more grind in STO. But in a way grind is the only pve endgame content. So they keep adding more grind. And keep in mind that you can get all ZEN store stuff with dilithium which you get from pvp.
Yes and no. People need a purpose when they reach max lvl. For many games that purpose is get better stuff. There is not much else to do in pve. If you want to separate pvp from the pve grind you would need pvp gear. No there can be problems too. Like how can a new player compete with high lvl pvp gear? Also there would simply be pvp grind, instead of pve (but I admit pvp grind could be more fun, if done right).
I am all in favor of hitting max lvl, going to the exchange, maybe doing a few quests and being ready for pvp. Thats actually still working to some extend, now the reputation system kind of sucks but I will survive it. I also like account wide unlocks but with the free to play model I understand that they needed to change some things. I have no idea how much money they made before or how much they make now. But I suppose they simply did not have enough subscribers so they went free to play.
And the funny thing is, 2 of my friends who played at release a bit came back because it is now free and they not have to spend money. Also I convinced another one to try it out. So in the end I am not that opposed to free to play in general and I accept that they have to sell something people want.
Now concerning lockbox ships: Since I am playing for some time now I do have a little money. It also helps that I mostly use MK XI blue consoles and only MK XI weapons. Also my weapons do not have [acc]x3 but mostly something like [acc]x2 [critd]. But so far I bought myself 3 ships from the exchange. That they are only for a single char sucks, I would like to have them as an account wide unlock.
Consoles: I have no problem with consoles in general, but the balancing simply sucks. If they want to release something like a subspace jump, sure why not. Grav puls? That should never survive testing. But my point is, the problem is the console itself. If grav pulse was free for everyone it would not be p2w but that would not make anything better.
A cool idea but that would change what? You would still have to pay to get stuff. maybe pay a little less and get a little more. The prizing policy in general could be discussed but in the end you would not change the basic system.
I am not trying to defend cryptics balance. I am not in favor of all the stuff they release and the consequences for pvp. I am not even in favor of the prizes they sell their stuff. But I do not have anything against the model in general.
Also I would like to point out, if everyone just has everything pvp would still not be better. Maybe it would even be worse. The problem is not that some people own a grav pulse and others don't. Actually you can just buy one in the exchange as a fed. With each new lockbox you can get another console pretty cheap. The problem is the lack of balancing of all the s*** they release.
If we want better pvp we need balancing.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
P2W is the main driver behind the escalated unbalanced power creep. You can't seperate the two, it's not realistic given the Mgt @ Cryptic.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
That may be true but if you look at other games, maybe wow. They simply release new addons, with new max lvls and new equipment. Most MMOs introduce new things in order to keep the people playing. Personally I really hate lvl cap increases and I am glad there were non so far in STO.
I would still blame the unbalanced consoles to a lack of testing/understanding of the game in general. I think they could sell more to the pvp community if they balanced some stuff and made it fun to use.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
When this game was still subscription based, they had to make sure that players kept playing the game (or at least kept paying). Now it won't make them any money if they make the perfect game. They profit from making an unbalanced game and filling the holes with stuff that costs potentially huge amounts of money. A player who starts playing, buys stuff for 500$ and after a month never logs in again is the perfect customer for them now. Keeping players happy is just not as profitable in the short term as squeezing every last penny out of newcomers and then simply replacing them with the next batch of new players.
It is true that for the most part the balance issues are worse than the barriers for acquiring certain things, but per-char unlocks are only the beginning. We already have team batteries for lobi (which is essentially char-bound real money) and I'm afraid that things will only get worse.
The reason why I like this "platinum sub" idea although it would cost me money is the simple fact that it means that it puts a limit on the amount one needs to spend in order to fully experience the game. F2P means that they try to milk the few players who are willing to spend >1000$ a months/week/whatever and this is something I don't like.
Another is this:
Escort with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Cruiser with EPTS 1, TSS 1 and HE 1
Currently the escort will survive longer. This is because the escort has a lot higher defence and no penalty to the healing it receives. This is what is wrong with the game.
First step in improving pvp:
1. ALL escorts get -25% healing received from any source.
2. Tactical captain skills don't boost non-weapon based damage.
If anyone looks at it objectively the initial changes required to bring a glimmer of balance to pvp look very similar to a string of escort and tactical captain nerfs. More specifically escorts. We all know one of the key problems with pvp is the absurd survivability of escorts.
Research and Refit/Revise/Redo Every underpowered ship in game and let the party begin!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
a reduction in hull is needed imho, and probably added on to that.
How about make healing from cruisers and sci vessels more effective? or make it class wise?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1) Teamwork and timing is #1
2) You cannot "Kirk It" in every ship
3) You are going to die, just get back up
escorts are very easy to kill now, they can't tank as before with the borg set+3 BFI. Actually crusiers are the ones who need a balance tweak, a 5 crusier premade is IMPOSIBLE to defeat, the crosshealing and extended shield stacking make imposible kill a crusier in a coordinated premade of 5 crusiers.
In premades match the escorts are always the target because they are the weak spot, u really need to learn a lot from PvP before ask a nerf into the classes.
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
If you want to play the "other games" I can drop EvE on you where all gear is created in game and the Tier1 (ie basic) gear can be used en mass to out zerg the high end gear. This means if you have enough new players they can take down older players in more expensive gear. The older players actually have more to risk in terms of keeping their clone updated which has much higher cost than a couple month old toon.
Further "new things" can mean added variety, it doesn't need to mean things like buffing shields and hull HPs for high end ships, consoles which add 240 degree AoE weapon fire, or +torp/mine damage. Seriously, over a year ago a Dev admitted in a recorded interview that the non console C-Store ships were by design better than not, and this was when it was a pay-2-play game. Their intentions are clear. It's no matter how bad they are at putting it into practice.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
You post read like "Escorts are fine" which is simply not the case. Sure 5 cruisers cross healing will mean you never kill one of them. Then again it only takes 2 ships healing an escort and you will never kill that escort.
The problem remains. Healing is too powerful and escorts are too survivable. They are more separate issues than most people believe.
I believe you quoted the wrong post, correct me if I'm wrong.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
imo the problems with healing are:
1. extended shields stack, that is the MAIN problem.
2. EPTS3 (too much passive damage reduction)
3. RSP (stupid, simple as that)
4. Aux to SIF coldown
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
Funny how all of them spill into the engineering category. And i always heard and thought sci was the greatest sinner.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
would not be a problem, imo, if consoles were limited to their original ship.
edit: or even just their class of ship
have fun kill bad guys